Tranny oil/filter change ?

[creslevi]

Back in may while I was posting about an engine stumble problem I had the oil/filter changed and ever since in the morning I have to wait for it to build up oil pressure before it will move, I know I can take it back but they allready done it twice and now I no longer feel comfortable dealing with them,
My questions are as follows I have drained the oil and cleaned the pan and removed the filter, There's alittle sleeve with a neoprene seal at the top, that is a swedge type fit into the case ? any suggestions on getting the old one out ??, there are no bolts holding the filter in.
There is about a 2 inch square by 1/8 thick magnet in the bottom of the pan ?? (at least that's where I found it) I think it's to catch any shavings or fileings ??.
Does anyone know if there are any checkvalves in the filter lines ?, I happened to be there when they tryed to refill the tranny thru the cooler lines and the first attempt failed because the lines were reversed so my thought is the pressure from the machine might have jammed a checkvalve ??!!??.
Once I get it going in the morning its good all day and runs great with no slippage at all.
it's only after sitting overnight the pressure seems to bleed off the converter ??.
I just feel it's something simple but know a shop is going to suggest replacing the tranny because of the mileage 216,000 but it run's too good for that.
I hope someone can help or steer me to some illustrated specific instructions about this tranny embossed on the pan is 4T60-E
Thank you Rick
ps
This never happened before the service (oil/filter change)

[avatar307]

To get the old filter out of the transmission, pull. If the neoprene seal the holds it in place stays pressed into the transmission, and it is not damaged, it can be reused.

The magnet in the bottom of your pan should actually be attached to the pan in a specific place. It exists to catch metalic debris. Shavings, chunks of metal, shards, so they don't get sucked back into the transmission and cause more damage. As long as there are no visible pieces of metal stuck to it, you're all good. Clean the magnet and pan before reinstalling to make sure you get any particles out. Also, be sure to clean the gasket matting surfaces well.

DO NOT use any RTV on the gasket. (It will get sucked into the fluid pump, clog it up, and destro y the transmission.) And be sure to torgue the pan bolts ONLY to manufactuer spec. If you get them too tight, it will leak... I believe on the 4T60 trans it is... 17Nm (13ft-lbs).

There are many, many checkvalves in an automatic transmission. Rather... "checkballs." As to if they screwed something up when they tried to replace the fluid through the transmission cooling lines... I'd say it was certainly possible they screwed up the fluid pump in the transmission.

It kinda sounds like the transmission has to sit there for a while before it gets enough fluid to the TCC to engage the clutch. Could be a solinoid problem... but automatic transmission service is something I stay far away from without a factory service manual with flow charts the tell me exactly what's wrong.

And now for a dumb question. Have you checked the transmission fluid?

Note that the transmission fluid level will actually drop as the transmission reaches operating temperature because a themostatic valve opens within the transmission. The transmission should be driven for approx 15 miles at 55 MPH to reach the idle operating temperature of 120 degrees F (I believe). Park the car on a level surface, and cycle through the entire gear range, pausing to let the transmission shift into each gear. Let the engine idle for a minute of two, pull the dip stick, wipe, replace, wait 3-5 seconds, then check the fluid level.

[creslevi]

Hi
Yes the oil is full, The magnet was lying on the bottom of the narrow rounded end of the pan, I know generally where it was but not exact location does it matter ??.

They did use sealant on the pan with what seemed to me to be a very good neoprene type replacement gasket.
I was under the impression if the filter wasn't seated right that may lead to a bleadoff situation, having never done this before I was hesitant to pry the old sleeve out, The new filter comes with a new sleeve which is why I went to the bother of changing it myself after the shop changed it last may, I thought maybe the seal was damaged, But I really had to pry the old filter out so it was a pretty tight fit ?, When you say it may be a solenoid, Do you mean one of the converter solenoids, I think there are 3 of them, But it seems to work great once I get the pressure up enough to move the car.
Also don't you think the filter would stop any sealant from getting into the pump ?, there was a lot of sealant used ! ?. What a predicament I was chasing a stumble miss condition and changed the oil/filter in the tranny just trying to flush it out, now I have the stumble solved but the tranny is screwing up !!.
This is exactly why all my life I have done my own work, I have made mistakes but was always able to recover from them, Now I am not so sure ! ?.These are probly pretty stupid questions but the devil is ussually in the detail, And I can't find the details, I really felt sorry for the guy with the serpentine belt question a while back because it's such an easy fix, I even sent him pictures of the routeing but haven't heard back if he got it fixed. Sorry I guess that's enough ranting for now I have other fish to fry.
Rick

[avatar307]

On my transmission pan, I believe the magnet is in the same place, the narrow part. If you stare at the transmisson long enough, you'll probably be able to tell where it should go. The hole where the fluid is pumped back into the pan. Without pulling out a manual, I couldn't say for sure.

My POINT is that on my transmisson pan, the magnet was stuck in place. It was glued to the pan in the exact location it needed to be. That is my concern, that is has not come unglued, because I expect such could cause some problems.

Sealent, transmission, bad. Some of the passage ways in a automatic transmission are around little steel "checkballs." Pressurized fluid pushes through an opening like 1/64". If a piece of RTV jams the passage (or gets caught in any of the other million little passage ways), kaboom. No more transmisson.

Mechanics will tell you that there is no way you can seize a automatic transmission. Well, I can tell you that I've had it happen. If the fluid pump can't move the fluid, the transmission won't work.

Yes... the filter should probably stop the RTV from getting inside the transmission. Of course, then the filter would be clogged up. If it's clogged bad enough, the transmission would not be able to get any fluid. At the very least, the flow would be highly restricted.

Remember, RTV Silicone and other gasket sealents are designed to be Sealents. I.e. They are designed to stop the flow of fluid. Even if it's just a few pieces of gasket sealer that god sucked into the filter, they could completely stop the flow of fluid. The silicone wouldn't break up and allow fluid around it. It would stay intact, pressure would hold it against the filter screen.

However, they also used the fluid coolant lines to change you transmisson fluid at one point. I'm not sure exactly how this works... but I'm not a fan of the method. Simply because of the problems associated with mixing up the tubes, the vunerability of automatic transmission, and the fact that you may not get all the fluid out. PLUS, that method doesn't allow you to change the filter. If you're going to change the fluid, change the filter.

I do have a point though. From what I know of this method, the fluid would be sucked up through the filter and new fluid would be deposited through the return lines into the pan. So again, the filter should catch any debris in the pan when the fluid is sucked out. UNLESS, they hook the lines up backwards. In this case, the fluid would come out through the filter, pumping all the debris from the filter into the transmission pan. Which would then could feasibly be sucked up through the return line and into the transmission.

Like I said... I don't know much about automatic transmissions, they make my head hurt. Troubleshooting them is highly difficult... especially since much of the diagnosis involves "feeling" how the transmission reacts. -- Thus... most of the above is just my opinion on the whole thing. I do know for a fact that the GM Factory Service Manual for the 4T60-E transmission states "do not use any gasket sealer on the transmission gasket."

As far as the seal that fits around the next of the new filter. I'm a perfectionist, so when I replaced mine, I replaced the sleeve too. With the hydralic transmission fluid everywhere, it's a little difficult to get a hold of, but it will pop out. Depending on how brave you are, you can VERY gently pry the edge of it with a small screw driver and then grab the old one with a pair of needle noses. Just make sure you're prying the right thing.

However, the point is simply to have a good seal. The filter will not have that much pressure on it, so having an air tight seal around the neck is not that critical. Hence why the filter is pressed into place as opposed to screwed/bolted on. -- As long as the filter feels secure, the old ring should be alright. When you put the filter in, it should take some work. The filter shold not come back out easily.

The solinoids that actuate the action of the TCC. There are two... the TCC Solinoid and the PWM something or another solinoid which somewhat controls the TCC solinoid. ***From my understanding of the dynamic of an automatic transmission.*** The TCC provides varying degress of interlock between the engine and transmission until the transmission shifts into overdirve. (At which time the TCC locks.) Previously, this was controlled by the speed of the engine relative to the transmission, the fluid pressure inside the TCC fed by the transmission, etc.

On the 4T60, the TCC is engaged by a computer controled solinoid... this is what leads to the shudder many people feel at 45 MPH when the car encounters a slight grade. The TCC solinoid has locked the TCC, sensing the increased load the TCC Solinoid expects the transmission to downshift out of overdrive, but due to the low rate of speed and the relatively small additional load, the transmission doesn't need to. At least, that's the way I understand it.

If the solinoid is not functioning or the TCC is damaged... this could result in a lack of enough pressure in the TCC to transfer engine power to the transmission. (Specficially before the transmission has started turning and built up more pressure.)

Or the TCC or solinoid could be recieving too much pressure, causing the TCC to not slip enough. When the transmission is engaged, it puts too much load on the engine because the TCC is not slipping as much as it should. Causing the engine to stumble under the sudden increased load. (Specifically when first shifting to gear, because the engine is idling at that point. There is no additional power being provided from the accelerator.)

Or it could even be because before the engine is warmed up, there is a thermostatic element that will make the engine idle at a higher speed. This might cause problems if the TCC is fully locked with the transmission in reverse or first gear, as too much power is being transmitted to the transmission for the high torque input:output ratio in first and reverse.

I guess my point is, automatic transmissions make my head hurt. It depends on so many different varibles, some controled by computers and solinoids, some controlled by mechanical responses unchanged since the introduction of automatic transmission, and some controlled by little metal balls popping in and out of holes like valves depending on the transmission pressure....

I'm begining to think I'm going to get the manual out later so maybe I can provide more of a.... definitive therory. Right now my guesses are, in order of probability:

1) Sealent in the old filter, causing lack of pressure in the transmission. This will be rectified when you get the transmission reassembled.
2) Crap back flushed into the fluid pump due to the auto repair shop hooking the fluid coolant lines up backwards. Causing your fluid pump to be damaged, and not providing enough pressure.
3) The TCC being damaged or the TCC solinoid being damaged. Check the wires leading to it. I believe it is a plug on the side of the bell housing facing the front of the car near the top of the bell housing. Make sure the wires and connector are not damaged.

Anyway. This message is far too long... I'm rambling. I should write shorter post so some of the ASE certified master mechanics will read them and tell me if I'm full of s**t.

What do you mean by "...I was chasing a stumble miss condition and changed the oil/filter in the tranny just trying to flush it out, now I have the stumble solved but the tranny is screwing up?"

I though you were trying to solve a problem with the engine stumbling when you shift the transmission into gear before it has warmed up enough.... Is the problem more that when you shift into gear in the morning, the car just sits there and doesn't move at all?

Apparently I'm begining to confuse myself, which isn't really strange. Anyone else out there have more experience or knowledge of automatic transmissions? (I'll get my manual out later... right after I find the one I need. LOL)

[creslevi]

Hi again
Thank you soo much for the detailed response, It makes my head ache also.
Sorry I confused the issue about the Stumble, That's what started all this last Dec. while traveling with my sick wife, When just kind of coasting while coming down off the freeway the engine would miss/stumble ??, I had different rxperts tell me opposite opinions on the cause, So because changine oil and filter was much cheaper than going into the torque converter that's what I done, It didn't fix the stumble and after the oil/filter change in the tranny it started to refuse to move in the morning until it built up pressure and of course you always wonder if this will be the day it won't kick in ! which is very frustrating !. I think I solved the Stumble by replacing the EGR valve last week so far no miss/stumble !. So I decided to invest in a new filter and 7 qts ATF and do it myself, I got it back together today and so far its ok but I won't know for sure until it set's all night.
A guy at a tranny shop today told me it might just be a bad Filter ??, It was a nice tight fit on the seal so I reused the old one and had to push it into place where it stayed. He also said no RTV and not to use the cork like gasket so just to be on the safe side I bought a new rubberized ? gasket $22.43 the most expensive gasket I ever bought, but I got a lot of good info and he was a really nice guy, If it fixes the problem it was money well spent, And the old one has 216,000 miles behind it, but it's still in one piece and probly would have worked. He also said one of the cooler lines has a check ball in it so that will be my next move if necessary, Thanks again for all your thought and effort, I will post the results !.
Rick

[avatar307]

Man alive, you type about as fast as I do, a detailed response already. I was just stopping by to post two things:

1) Open pry open the old filter and look around inside it. There's a chance you'll find the cause of your problems in there. Be it RTV pieces or metal shavings or metal shards. Depending on the color, they can be from either the transmission or the torque converter.

2) I've been flipping through the service and repair sections on the 4T60-E transmission. (In the 1995 Buick Century Factory Service Manual. Same transmission on the 1995 LeSabre.)

In the Condition Diagnosis Charts listed in the 4T60-E Diagnosis chapter, I found something related to your situation, to past service on the transmission, and to what the transmission mechanic told you.

Under Condition: Delayed Engagement, it lists Inspect Component: "Cooler Checkball (28)," For Cause: "Not seating, allowing converter drain back." (Page 7A-5A-34.)

Unfortunately, the Cooler Checkball isn't listed in either the Transmission Service or Transmission Repair - 4T60-E sections. However, I FINIALLY found a reference to it within the Disassembled Views portion of the 4T60-E Repair section. (Figure 122 & 123 - Case and Associated Parts + Legend. Pages 7A-5B-75 & 7A-5B-76. The legend takes up a whole page, LOL)

With the help of the General Service section for the 4T60-E I determined this to be the coolant line connection point which goes vertially into the engine. Otherwise known as, where "Hose Assembly, Transaxle Oil Cooler, Upper" connects to the transmission. There are two lines (which I'm sure you know), one bends and connects vertically into the transmission the other goes in horizonally. (Both lines connect within a couple inches of one another.) The connector with the Checkball is the one going vertically into the transmission.

From the specifications sections.
III.#: 28 - Ball Check Assembly, Cooler Line
Thread Size: 3/8-18
Assembly Torque Spec.: 46-58Nm, 34-43ft/lbs

The other cooler line (the one connecting horizontially) connects to:
III.#: 29 - Connector - Cooler Line (Inverted Flare Tube)
Thread Size: 1/4-18 NPSF
Assembly Torque Spec.: 32-44Nm, 23.5-32.5ft/lbs

Hopefully all that will be of some help if you end up needing to replace the cooler line checkball as part of the "next step."

Oh, and BTW... I believe the transaxle fluid and filter service window is every 100,000 miles. I can't imagine go 200,000 miles. Mine had 150k when the gasket started leaking. Course, I also put 125k miles on a serpentine belt before I swapped it with the one my grandfather removed at 30k.

Replaced the water pump at 175,000, and I consider that to be that first REAL repair the car has ever needed... Well first repair that wasn't cosmetic or directly my fault (like when my street flooded and filled the car with water). 175,000 miles on an engine and transmission is not bad...

I'm afraid to stop driving it, because I doubt I'll ever find another car that will stand up as well as my 1995 LeSabre has.

Good luck and let us know what you find inside that transmission filter.

-MC

[redly1]

creslevi...
when you first start the car up in the morning, and the transmission hesitates (needs time to build up pressure, you said), try this. Shift all the way down to Low1.

Does the tranny engage?

I've got a 93 Silhouette (also has the 4T60-e) that started doing this after I did an oil/filter change. This after the damn cooler line blew out one night and I lost all my fluid...luckily it was cold and I had only driven a few hundred yards before I noticed the fluid gushing out.

The interesting thing with my problem is that it is a cold weather phenomenon. It stopped the morning hesitation in may, and only now that it is getting cold at night again has it returned. I've been too lazy to fix it, since the low1 trick works for me.

[creslevi]

Hi Redly1
Thanks for the reply and suggestion, Unfortunately shifting to low 1 didn't work for me, Did yours ever drain off before you blew the cooler line ?, One of my lines looks a little suspious and I am told it's possible for it to have a tiny hole allowing it to draw air or in other words it creates a vent allowing the oil to drain back to the pan ?, When and if I find the awnser I will come back and post it.
Rick

[redly1]

creslevi...
what do you mean by "drain off"?
my failure was due to a defective crimp in the transmission line. appearently there was a recall on it (the van is 12yrs old, so who knows if it was ever taken in)

the hose sections of the lines aren't too tough to replace. I used the correct size hose to slide over the metal lines and two hose clamps on each end.

[creslevi]

Redly1
I meant delayed engagement in the morning after the car sat overnight, I suspect one of my cooler lines is bad ?, I have been wondering about cutting out the crimped ends on the rubber section of the line and replacing it with new hose and clamps ?.
Rick

[redly1]

ok...no, I didn't have the problem prior to the hose blow out. I changed out the filter about a week before...guessing I must have stressed something causing the failure.