Rattle From Hell continues

[GaryWMoses]

OK its me again I have 3800 3.8L V6 in my 89' Buick - 243K,
I have changed the water pump, powersteering pump, idler pulley and tensioner assembly, and finally the alternator, and got some patience and tolerance lessons as well, I am determined to save this dinosaur of a car and have only spent $125 on parts with rebuilt WP and PSP, the alternator and tensioner came from a bone yard.
More about the noise and my actions. I have belted it without the AC which doesn't work and the noise is still there. It starts after about 3 secs after start up and diminishes as I increase speed and even goes away once I am cruising. I guess a very loud rattle or almost ticking would best describe it. Then there is this occasional loud click or clank as I am driving. When the belt is removed completly no bad noise.
I have now been told it is definately under the cam either a lifter or spring and that this all means the engine is about to blow and I should begin funeral arrangements. Upon suggestions to prolong the enevitable, I did another oil change with SAE 30 a qt. of Hi Tach and a can of Restore. Which by the way didn't change the noise after 60 mile round highway trip today. I am not a mechanic but handy and can follow directions. I really need to know what is wrong so I can determine my course of action. I was told to while the engine was running to one at a time remove spark to see if it can be traced to a single cylinder. What could I see if I removed the cam? and what should I do once I have the cam off? I was also told it could be a carbon fragment that could be flushed by pouring a 1/2 bottle of transmission fluid thru the carberator while reving up the engine to 2500 rpms? I really hate to bring top the shop yet unless I am told I am definately in over my head here. Please any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated........Gary

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by GaryWMoses

OK its me again I have 3800 3.8L V6 in my 89' Buick - 243K,

as I am driving. When the belt is removed completly no bad noise.

Is this correct, when you remove the rubber accessory drive belt completely there is no bad noise?
If yes, the only accessory you have not accounted for is the harmonic balancer and the pully.
The pully might be loose. Also the balancer itself can make a nice rattle if the rubber insulator inside it has gone bad.

Otherwise, the noise you describe is typical of a stretched and worn timing chain. It sits behind the waterpump under another cover. The mileage you indicate is about right for its being worn out. The rattle you hear is the slack side of the chain hitting the inside of the cover.
Its a bit more involved to swap than a waterpump, but its not to difficult.

[GaryWMoses]

thanks for the speedy reply, yeah it makes sense, why would an internal engine noise stop with the belt removed and the engine running? I know I need a puller which I can get from Auto Zone - Loan a tool. I would appreciated any detailed instructions you could provide. Also I have junk yard which i can get on the yard for a $1 remove and inspect the part before I buy it. What do I look for in good harmonic balancer and what bad do I look for. At this point $ is an object and I have the time to do the work myself. Also I was told you shouldn't be able to turn this pulley with the engine off, it doesn't spin all the way around, but can be turned at least 3/4 of the way before it stops.

[INF3RN0666]

LOL, wow that means that my timing belt has either been replaced before or is going to die suddenly. My car has 455 000 Km on it and I SOMETIMES hear a soft ticking sound. It's not very loud but it seems to disappear by itself :S. It's behind the main pulley that's attached directly to the engine front housing if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is, I heard that changing the timing for the car can be dangerous. So the new belt will have to go on exactly as the old one was without spinning the sprokets.

I don't know anything about cars really, but I've heard alot of wierd situations and experienced more than the average guy with my car. You can imagine what weird problems I can get with 455+KM!

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by GaryWMoses

thanks for the speedy reply, yeah it makes sense, why would an internal engine noise stop with the belt removed and the engine running? I know I need a puller which I can get from Auto Zone - Loan a tool. I would appreciated any detailed instructions you could provide. Also I have junk yard which i can get on the yard for a $1 remove and inspect the part before I buy it. What do I look for in good harmonic balancer and what bad do I look for. At this point $ is an object and I have the time to do the work myself. Also I was told you shouldn't be able to turn this pulley with the engine off, it doesn't spin all the way around, but can be turned at least 3/4 of the way before it stops.

The outer ring of the balancer should not move. If it does, even a bit the rubber is bad. And yes, there is a bit of steel overlap between the inner and outer ring. This steel to steel contact is why it will not turn all the way around.
It is what rattles when the rubber goes bad, due to the torsional vibration of the crankshaft. The balancer exists to dampen these vibrations.
Running an engine with a bad balancer or none at all may eventually break the crankshaft.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by INF3RN0666

LOL, wow that means that my timing belt has either been replaced before or is going to die suddenly. My car has 455 000 Km on it and I SOMETIMES hear a soft ticking sound. It's not very loud but it seems to disappear by itself :S. It's behind the main pulley that's attached directly to the engine front housing if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is, I heard that changing the timing for the car can be dangerous. So the new belt will have to go on exactly as the old one was without spinning the sprokets.

I don't know anything about cars really, but I've heard alot of wierd situations and experienced more than the average guy with my car. You can imagine what weird problems I can get with 455+KM!

Timing BELTS like in an overhead cam engine need replacement every 80,000 km or so, sometimes longer. Usually when they break you bend valves or worse, (expensive)

Timing CHAINS like in most domestic pushrod engines last much longer, often the life of the vehicle. Sometimes it can be 200,000 km, sometimes it's 400,000 km.
Its rare for them to cause engine damage when they go. They usually just jump one sprocket tooth over, not break. Usually the vehicle just stops running, or runs very poorly.

[GaryWMoses]

Thanks for all your help !, I threw in the towel, brought it to a shop, its worth $65 an hour labor since I don't have the proper tools or any patience left :o)

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by GaryWMoses

Thanks for all your help !, I threw in the towel, brought it to a shop, its worth $65 an hour labor since I don't have the proper tools or any patience left :o)

Could you post their findings and repairs?

[GaryWMoses]

SURE WILL Magic rat - I wish I could of gotten the damn thing off myself, and I didn't want to screw it up, at least my popular mechanics summer has been interesting, hey my brakes on my Mitsubishi 3000 GT are low and sticking (just started a scraping noise) I watched him do it last time $130 front brakes, the rotors look good, what if I just threw some new pads in without machining the rotors, then there is the brake line bleeding how difficult is that?

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by GaryWMoses

SURE WILL Magic rat - I wish I could of gotten the damn thing off myself, and I didn't want to screw it up, at least my popular mechanics summer has been interesting, hey my brakes on my Mitsubishi 3000 GT are low and sticking (just started a scraping noise) I watched him do it last time $130 front brakes, the rotors look good, what if I just threw some new pads in without machining the rotors, then there is the brake line bleeding how difficult is that?

Sure you can put new pads on to existing rotors, but the pads will last longer and the car will stop better if the rotors are machined.
If you do the brakes yourself, after you remove the calipers, take the rotors off to a good service garage. The ones around here will machine them for $10 each. Ask them to measure the rotor to be sure its within minimum thickness specs, just to be safe. It makes for a better brake job.
Also you will need to retract the caliper pistons back into their bores. On front calipers this is easy, as you can use a C-clamp. Just take the cap off the master cylinder, since that's where the extra fluid is going. Sometimes rear calipers need a special procedure to retract the piston.

I would suggest reading a service manual before doing your own brakes, just to be safe.

As for bleeding brakes, normally you don't have to when installign new pads,(unless you have a pre - existing problem with air in the hydraulic system.) Dont remove the flexible rubber hydraulic line fronm the caliper. just unbolt it from the steering knucle, but leave the rubber hose attached.

There was a brake bleeding thread posted in this forum recently, as there are several bleeding methods. Try a search for it.

[INF3RN0666]

I think I asked how to bleed breaks and people posted 3 different ways to do it. I suggest you avoid doing it because you can make your brakes worse if you don't do it properly. My brakes were dead at the time, so I couldn't make things worse really. However, it was the scariest experience ever driving the car at 30km/h to the mechanic for 4 minutes :S!