91 Integra Start Problem

[ManOnTheGo]

My 91 Integra LS has a consitent start problem in the cold.
In the morning, after a cold night, the car doesn't start when I turn the ignition key to position II. The engine doesn't even attempt to turn over indicating that the starter is not engaging.

All I hear are the main relay engaging and the fuel pump running when I turn the ignition key to position II.

I also see the gas indicator light, the brake indicator light, and the battery indicator light on.

After a while, with they ignition key still on poistion II, the engine indicator light turns on.

I leave the key in the ignition in position I and wait 10-15 minutes. After the wait, I turn the key to position II and the engine starts without hesitation.

This has been going on for 2 years.
Tonight, the engine will not start at all even after the wait.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

[Rover 2]

Do you have a shop manual?
When you say the main relay engaging where is this located? I ask this because under the dash on left side of steering colum is a relay that when it gets a bad solder joint over time it will do what you are talking about. If you can locate this relay and remove connection and then remove from braket(which is a real pain is the ___). Once you have it out and in your hand take a small screwdriver and carfully open the relay. Now if your eye sight is really goooood then you may see the bad joint. If not use a magnifiying glass. You will be looking for a very small hair line crack around one or more of the connections. If you are good with a soldering iron it can be fixed if not they are about $50 bucks.
Good luck>>>>>>

[ManOnTheGo]

This morning, I was able to start my car before doing the suggested work on the relay assembly (Mitsuba RZ-0067, 12V).

However, I proceeded to do the maintenance any how.



There are actually two relays, both 12V single contact relays.
I disassembled the relay assembly, removed all the old solder, cleaned the circuit board with acetone, cleaned the contact points on the two relays with 2000 grit sand paper.


Hopefully, I'll be able to start my car tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

[Rover 2]

did you find the bad solder joints?

[ManOnTheGo]

Prior to the removal of the relay assembly, I checked the relays response to ignition key turns. The relays did engage (determined by the clicking and vibration of the assembly).

My conclusion is that either the contact points were bad or there were cold-solder joints on the circuit board.

I checked continuity throughout the circuit board and eveything checked out fine, so I ruled out a possible cold-solder joint. However, I resoldered all the joints just in case.

Here's a basic tip to avoid cold-solder joints when soldering -- you should always heat the contacts and place the new solder on the heated contacts (NOT ON THE IRON TIP) until the new solder melts by the heat of the contact points; otherwise, the large temperature difference between the contact surfaces would prevent secure bonding.

I did notice heavy carbon deposit buildup around the contact points on each of the relays. I cleaned the contacts with 2000 grit sand paper and wipped them clean of debris.

Thanks Again!

[ManOnTheGo]

Last night, the temperature dropped to 16 degrees F with a light dusting of snow.

This morning, I was able to start my car on the first try!

However, tonight the problem is back and the temperature is even lower.

I've taken a look at the electrical diagrams for my Integra and was wondering if anyone had the resistance value for a good starter coil.

I suspect that the starter coil has degraded over time and at lower temperatures, the resistance increases beyond it's functional range.

I suspect this because turning the ignition key to position II sends current through the coil and thus heating it. After a while, the coil warms up and the resistance lowers back down to within working range.

Any comments?

Thanks!

[Rover 2]

I was looking for the info you asked for and could not find it.
However if you do remove the starter checke the contacts that are in the soleniod. they may be the problem.
What happens if you try to just click the key quickly to the start positon as if you were only trying to find a timing mark? If this does work before you pull out the starter iI think you will find the soleniod contacts out worn out.
good luck.

[Rover 2]

so man on the go how is the weather today?
Have you had a chance to try idea?

[Rover 2]

you know the more I think about this the more I wonder about wire connections. If my thinking is correct cold weather is when problems really show up. This expand at different rates and different amounts. What do you think?

[ManOnTheGo]

I found some useful information regarding ignition systems for 86-93 Integras.

The igniter and ignition coil are part of the distributor assembly.

The igniter has 3 resistors, 3 diodes, & 2 transistors that act as switches (to ground) at a precise voltage.

When the ignition is ON, the transistors (are switched on) in the igniter prevent current flow in the ignition coil primary windings.

When the engine is cranked, the reluctor moves through the magnetic field created by the stator. When the reluctor teeth are aligned with the stator projections, a small AC voltage is generated. The igniter amplifies this voltage and uses it to switch on the transistors (providing a path to ground for the primary circuit).

As the reluctor teeth move out of alignment with the stator projections, an abrupt change occurs in the AC Voltage (turning the transistors off). The primary circuit path to ground is broken which induces a high voltage in the ignition coil secondary winding.

Legends are equipped with a distributorless ignition system.

Cautions:

1. Never leave the key turned ON for more than 10 minutes, while the engine is not running.
2. Make sure all EFI harness connectors are fastened securely. Loose connections can cause high voltqge surge in the coil and condenser damaging integrated circuits in the car.
3. Keep EFI parts dry.
4. Before removing parts, turn OFF the ignition switch.
5. Disconnect the ground cable (negative/black) from the battery.
6. Never press the accelerator pedal when starting.
7. Make sure the Igniter is grounded to the body.
8. Never allow the coil or tachometer terminals to touch the ground or you'll damage your igniter and/or coil.

Igniter Diagnosis:

1. Remove the distributor cap, rotor, and leak cover.
2. Turn the Ignition switch to ON. Check for 12 VDC between the positive terminal and ground (car chassis). Voltage should be present. If not, check for an open circuit in the BLK/YEL wire or a disconnected terminal A.
3. If the Voltage is present, disconnect the BLK/YEL wire from the igniter. Voltage between the BLK/YEL wire and ground. If not, check for an open circuit in the BLK/YEL wire between the ignition coil and the igniter or a disconnected terminal A.
4. If the Voltage is present, disconnect the WHT/BLU wire from the igniter. Voltage between the WHT/BLU wire and ground. If not, check for an open circuit in the WHT/BLU wire between the ignition coil and the igniter or a disconnected terminal B.
5. If voltage is present, check continuity between the igniter body and the distributor housing.
6. If all tests check good and the system still fails to function, replace the igniter.

Ignition Coil Diagnosis:

1. With the ignition switch OFF, remove the distributor cap.
2. Remove the 2 screws to disconnect the BLK/YEL front terminal A and WHT/BLU from terminal B of the coil.
3. The resistance of the primary windings (measured between terminals A & B) should be 0.6 - 0.8 Ohms (at 70-degrees F). Replace the coil if it's not within this range.
4. The resistance of the secondary windings (measured between terminal A and the contact within the ignition coil tower/canon) should be 9760 - 14640 Ohms (9.7K - 14.6 KOhms)
5. Replace the coil if the resistance is not within this range.

[geojim]

How did you remove the main relay, RZ-0067 from under the dash? Seems like it is attached with one bolt on top that is unreachable as far as I can see.

After a fresh start this morning, I figured out that you have to remove the plastic panel directly below the steering column. Once that is off, then the bolt is reachable.... Jim

[ManOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by geojim

How did you remove the main relay, RZ-0067 from under the dash? Seems like it is attached with one bolt on top that is unreachable as far as I can see.

After a fresh start this morning, I figured out that you have to remove the plastic panel directly below the steering column. Once that is off, then the bolt is reachable.... Jim

Required tools:
medium philips screw driver
8mm socket with an 6-8inch extension (or 10mm socket, I forgot)

Steps:
Pull out the driver-side change holder to the left of the steering column (no unscrewing required).
Unscrew the mounting screws for the underpanel on the driver side.
Remove the underpanel.
Unscrew the mounting bolt for the relay.
Use an extension with the 8mm socket.
(Maybe it was a 10mm socket, I'm not sure... most of the nuts and bolts are either 8mm or 10mm so it's a good investment anyway).

Hope that helps.

[geojim]

Thanks ManOnTheGo. This morning I took the RZ-0067 relay out of the Integra and resoldered all the connections. Several looked suspicious, but one in particular had a tell tale cold solder circle around it. I did not mess with the relays themselves. Hopefully this will fix the non-start condition that happens every so often when the car is very hot inside. Jim

[ManOnTheGo]

I replaced the starter and the problem is gone for good... my car starts up 100% on the first try now.

[Buffet]

My car is 90 integra, has start up problem too.
Finally found the RZ-0067 relay was malfunction.
And open the relay found the solder joint were creak for the fuel pump circuit.

Had resolder it, and will try tonight, Hope my car can back to normal!