Brazil fines American Airlines pilot for gesture

[replicant_008]

strewth... go away for one weekend and the topic slides off the edge of the earth...

I think the point that should be reiterated is... the last time I looked Brazil still purported to be a sovereign nation and it still gets to choose its own laws. (When in Rome...etc)

In many parts of the world you could still be hauled away in the dead of night and never seen again for even harbouring the thought of opposing the government.

As for the local scene - In New Zealand, it is a offence under the Crimes Act 1961 to commit sedition...

A seditious intention is an intention—

(a)To bring into hatred or contempt, or to excite disaffection against, Her Majesty, or the Government of New Zealand, or the administration of justice; or

(b)To incite the public or any persons or any class of persons to attempt to procure otherwise than by lawful means the alteration of any matter affecting the Constitution, laws, or Government of New Zealand; or

(c)To incite, procure, or encourage violence, lawlessness, or disorder; or

(d)To incite, procure, or encourage the commission of any offence that is prejudicial to the public safety or to the maintenance of public order; or

(e)To excite such hostility or ill will between different classes of persons as may endanger the public safety.

However, there are defences against even sedition which are the exercise in good faith to show that the Government is mislead or mistaken in their/her measures, point out errors in the Government or Constitution or to point out with the intention of their removal measures that produce feelings of hostility or ill will between groups of persons.

back to the topic...

The US has adopted an approach which it purports to reduce the risk to its citizens and property by requiring the fingerprinting, profiling of passengers, preventing passengers congregating (including waiting by the bathroom) and the requirement of airlines to allow armed US sky marshalls.

Personally, I don't have an issue with this. If you want to visit someone else's country then you abide by their rules. You have a choice - if you don't like it then don't travel there (which is part of the reason I haven't visited the continental US in over 11 years after the experiences of May '92).

Unfortunately, this effort has been undermined in the eyes of the world by the lack of accountability of the security services within the US homeland - British security services arrested a passenger carrying live ammunition on a flight from the US who had passed thru US Border Control... en route to the UK.

The US is under a microscope by the rest of the world for its measures and in many cases nations will reciprocate its measures - sometimes in spite sometimes in bids to maintain their own citizens faith in the security of their transportation systems...

The AA pilot was probably frustrated and incensed but it wasn't a very clever thing to do and the Brazilians decided to make him a pawn in some tit-for-tat politicking and to set an example.

[Flatrater]

I find your post amusing. You do realise that all the terrorists are already in country don't you?

Yes I know we have terrorists in American I am not blind but we need to stop the influx of these radicals! I was raised in Buffalo New York do you remember the "Lackawanna 6" they were caught and are in jail now! They will all be found and gotten rid of one way or another. I think we should do to the radicals intent on blowing us up is to do the same thing to them blow them up and make sure it takes them hours to die! Cut their nuts off and shove them down their throats!

[zebrathree]

You *now* realise that makes you just as bad as the terrorists, don't you?

[YogsVR4]

The original point of this post was to discuss how outlandish it is to have a law that is punished by over twelve thousand dollars for showing contempt to an official. The fact the pilot was frustrated and was fined for being rude is bizarre in of itself, but to be fined over 12,000 dollars for it is down right laughable. It's funny that people say, well it's the law of the land in Brazil, but sing a different tune when the law of the land is execution for a certain crimes.

The discussion of finger printing people coming into the country (or any other) is a separate issue. I think its a damn good idea and I don't know why the US and every other nation on earth didn't/doesn't do that. Is it an annoyance for visitors? I bet it is when the process is inefficient, but I fully support it being done by all.

[sudden]

I am Brazilian, and I was very happy with the fine imposed to him. He was offered a break as if he was Brazilian the choice of a fine may not have been an option, and he could face 2 years in prison.

When I am in the US I have to respect all US laws and its constituition. That individual thought he would be so funny by pointing the finger to police and he got what he deserved.

As far as the money goes, the police did not keep it. It was all donated to a non-profit organization which takes care of the elderly.

I have no doubt that when I am entering the US if I had done the same, I would probably have received worse treatment than the one he received. Several professionals in Brazil have been granted visas to come to the US just so that an immigration officer decides for whatever reason he does not like the person and sends them back. The media in the US does not cover such cases as it is not of interest to Americans.

It is interesting to see though that the European Union has long ago suspended the need for visas to Brazilians... and even though Europe has been targeted with terrorist attacks for decades, their prevention methods and police are not anywhere as intrusive as in the US.

I do respect the US laws whether or not I agree with them, and intend to continue doing so. However, when foreigners do visit other countries, they are expected to behave in the same manner.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by sudden

I am Brazilian, and I was very happy with the fine imposed to him. He was offered a break as if he was Brazilian the choice of a fine may not have been an option, and he could face 2 years in prison.

When I am in the US I have to respect all US laws and its constituition. That individual thought he would be so funny by pointing the finger to police and he got what he deserved.

It is possible he didn't know pointing a finger at someone was illegal.
Make sure when you are in the U.S. you study all the laws then. Keep in mind that in someplaces it's illegal to spit in public. Others it's illegal to walk your chicken after dark, in other places you can get arrested for showing public affection. I hope you study up.

As far as the money goes, the police did not keep it. It was all donated to a non-profit organization which takes care of the elderly.

I have no doubt that when I am entering the US if I had done the same, I would probably have received worse treatment than the one he received. Several professionals in Brazil have been granted visas to come to the US just so that an immigration officer decides for whatever reason he does not like the person and sends them back. The media in the US does not cover such cases as it is not of interest to Americans.

Doubtful, most people could care less about getting the finger anymore. Drive down some busy expressway in the US and count how many times someone gives someone else the finger.

So some professionals from Brazil got turned back at the border huh? Did it cost them $13,000. Who were these professionals? Where is the story on them? Is it in the papers in Brazil? I'd like to read about it.

It is interesting to see though that the European Union has long ago suspended the need for visas to Brazilians... and even though Europe has been targeted with terrorist attacks for decades, their prevention methods and police are not anywhere as intrusive as in the US.

I do respect the US laws whether or not I agree with them, and intend to continue doing so. However, when foreigners do visit other countries, they are expected to behave in the same manner.

So are you saying we should treat Brazilians differently than we treat any other foreigner comming into America?

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by sudden

I am Brazilian, and I was very happy with the fine imposed to him. He was offered a break as if he was Brazilian the choice of a fine may not have been an option, and he could face 2 years in prison.

When I am in the US I have to respect all US laws and its constituition. That individual thought he would be so funny by pointing the finger to police and he got what he deserved.

As far as the money goes, the police did not keep it. It was all donated to a non-profit organization which takes care of the elderly.

I have no doubt that when I am entering the US if I had done the same, I would probably have received worse treatment than the one he received. Several professionals in Brazil have been granted visas to come to the US just so that an immigration officer decides for whatever reason he does not like the person and sends them back. The media in the US does not cover such cases as it is not of interest to Americans.

I do respect the US laws whether or not I agree with them, and intend to continue doing so. However, when foreigners do visit other countries, they are expected to behave in the same manner.

Now 2 years in jail is worse than a 13K fine WTF is going on that a show of protest could be fined by 2 years in jail. What do you do when the government does something you don't like? Do you go into a dark corner and whine about it? At least in America we have the freedom to disagree with the law makers without fear of going to jail or a fine!!

Why don't you come over here and show us your finger and we will find out what happens! I promise you we will not throw you in jail for 2 years or fine you 13K! Most likely we will just remove you from this country as should of been done by your country! The whole point of this was the law is stuipd and doesn't make sense! The law was writtent to oppress people and not free people. Any law that opres the people of a country is wrong!

And as someone else said in this topic come to America you better know the thousands of laws on the books! It is impossible to know all the laws. Most countries in the world the middle finger is an expression that is not punishable with prison time.

[sudden]

There were plenty of Americans who did protest in regards to this request, but the person in question intentionally did a gesture to offend... he is a pilot from American Airlines and should be aware he is representing his company.

Remember that in the US if you disrespect a judge in a court of law you will also be held in contempt. Our law basically says that disrespecting a Federal Police officer equals disrespecting a judge in a court of law.

The maximum sentence is 2 years, but I truly doubt that would ever or have ever been applied.

Of course that one is not expected to know all the laws of a specific country upon arrival... but to show basic respect for foreign authorities is an expectation from any country.

In summary, I may find laws in the US that I do not agree with, but it is not in my capacity to purposedly disrespect them.

[Flatrater]

Think about it why did Brazil do this? Is it because the pilot disrespected a camera or was it to show the US government the little balls Brazil has?

You live the lifestyle you live because we Ameriacans buy the junk your country makes. Take for example your Brazilian company Brasilia which makes an aircraft the EMB-120! The metal on it is soo thin they had to use special rivits to hold it together and all the cracks that delevopled in the engine cowlings kept me busy for weeks on end fixing!

[bobv8]

Flatrater wrote:

“I think this Brazilian law is stupid! The US made this law to protect the Americans to keep these idiots out of our country that are intent on killing us! This law is here to protect us. Brazil made there law in a childish and immature act to punish us because they refuse to do anything to stop all of these terrorists from leaving their country and coming here to blow us away! Have you forgotten how many innocent people died in New York city? What did these people do to deserve death? Anything that we can do to stop terrorists should be done and done fast! If you want to condone the terrorists living in your country you can keep them and don't let them come here to the US!”

This is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Are you sure you are the Moderator here? Dude you should really quit the car mags for a while and try some world history and contemporary economics. Next time, do your home work before you open your mouth. At least you will not come across as a fully no clue.
Ok, where do I start? First, where did you hear there are brazilians terrorrists attacking America? Were did you hear any brazilian was involved in 9/11? Brazil is one of the most neutral countries in the world. They have never been in war with ANY nation. Even in the WWII, they sent only medical units and supplements. Brazil actually is very simpathetic to America and americans. They like the american culture a lot. Brazil is one of the biggest markets for american movies and music. Jean Claude Van Damme films for example in america, go straight to video. In Brazil, they still go to the theaters. Guns and Roses don’t even play in america anymore. In Brazil they still sell out whole soccer stadiums. As a matter of fact they are just going there for the Rock in Rio festival this year. Ask any american band or artist how do brazilians receive them there? They sing the lyrics along without not even speak any english. All singer make sure to make a stop down there. They know how much money they make over there. Brazilians are the foreign nationality that more visist Disney. Just ask any Disney employee and they will tell you how many brazilians come there every day specially in summer to leave their money. So, Brazil has no reason to do terrorrism against America or ANY other nation. They are very pieceful people. You should go there and see how warm and how nice they treat their turists(at least before this american law started). They treat their turists way better than americans treat theirs. Brazilians are NOT terrorrists. There are more american terrorrists doing terrorrism against America than ever will brazilians. Don’t believe? Was the Oklahoma federal building exploded by a brazilian? How about the shooting at the Colorado High-School? When was the last time you heard of a brazilian involved with terrorrism? There might be some terrorrists hidden there, as I’m sure there are in Europe and specially in the U.S. But they are not brazilians and their government can’t do much about it, juts like the american government can’t either.

About the new photo and finger print law to protect America. I fully, totally agree with it. But if they will do this, do with everybody. Not only discriminate the poorer countries. That’s why Brazil reacted the way they did. What make you think a terrorrist can’t get an european passport? Those suckers know no limits. To finger print people carrying brazilian passports and not finger print people carrying german and french ones is stupid and short sighted in terms of protection. Why don’t they finger print european countries? German was nazi just over 50 years ago. Their leader tried to take over the world. When was the last time you heard of a brazilian trying to take the world? So why not finger print Germany? Because Germany is a rich country today. Why they don’t finger print european countries? Can we say, MONEY MONEY MONEY. That’s all that is. Really. That’s why Brazil reacted like that.

You went on to say:

“You live the lifestyle you live because we Ameriacans buy the junk your country makes. Take for example your Brazilian company Brasilia which makes an aircraft the EMB-120! The metal on it is soo thin they had to use special rivits to hold it together and all the cracks that delevopled in the engine cowlings kept me busy for weeks on end fixing!”

My God, can you be more off? Will you ever stop to spit BS? Do you think Brazil survive because America buy their junk as you say? Dude, really, check you history. If that’s true, why is Bush (and so did Clinton) basically begging to Brazil to enter (and let the other south american countrie to enter, since Brazil is the leader down there) the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA)? Why does America want the end of the MERCOSUL? Why America needs to ask Brazil to raise their steel price because America can't compete with them? Brazil do not need America to buy their junk. The whole world buys from them and much more than America. The whole world (including America) buys coffee, orange, aluminun and other things from Brazil. They are the biggest producers of most those products. I got a surprise to you my friend. America also need other countries buddy. Wow, are you shocked? America also needs Brazil and anybody else to buy the american junk. Just ask Bill Gates which keeps pressuring Brazil to allow more american software in the market, or the big three from Detroit which keep begging for more share on the brazilian auto market. About the airplane example (which by the way the company’s name is not Brasilia , but EMBRAER. Brasilia was a dual motor airplane model made on the 70’s by them. I’m also a plane freak) , do you really think the american cars are the best in the world? They are only better than the russians and indian cars. They can’t thouch the europeans and not even the japanease or koreans. I will never buy a Chrysler in my life. They are junk. I can say by experience. America also makes trash buddy. Everybody makes good and bad products. You can’t be good in all. And America also need people to buy their trash. Everbody does. It’s called world economics.
Now, I came across this thread by accident. I was looking for information on a new car I just got(1985 Testarossa, with only 17,000 miles). So I won’t be coming back to check for replies. I just had to say something to this non sense post of yours. Just make sure you think before you say something stupid in public next time. Or at least do some research.

[Thought Crimer]

[quote=bobv8]Flatrater wrote:

“Ok, where do I start? First, where did you hear there are brazilians terrorrists attacking America? Were did you hear any brazilian was involved in 9/11?..."

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Its funny that an automotive forum is carrying on about politics. Anyways, this law is not directed at Brazil. It is a simple fact that foreign terrorists killed thousands of people in a terrorist attack. Obviously the US doesnt want these attacks to continue thats why these laws have been passed. I am sorry, if Brazil suffered a similar attack I would understand if Brazil applied such measures.

Brazil passed this current law because of the hatred that judge da Silva has for the US. When he passed the measure he referred to the American security measures in this way, "I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis..." This guy is way bent out of shape. This motive for this law was hatred. The world has enough hate already. If you want to blame someone for the security measures in the US blame bin Laden. Dont join him in his hatred for the US.