No decent Longtail GT/GTR reviews at all?

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by Stratoraptor

are you saying that McLaren Cars extended the rear on the F1 GT just so that they could have more room to put the rear wing back further on the 1997 F1 GTR?

Not to interrupt, but the F1 GT came along after all the '97 F1 GTRs were built, so nothing on the F1 GT was done for the 1997 F1 GTR, it was quite the opposite really. I would go so far as to argue that if the rules didn't require it, I doubt there would have ever been an F1 GT at all.

>8^)
ER

[Mr. Bernoulli]

Originally Posted by Stratoraptor

personally, i hated how the McLaren bought into what the GT1-class had become during those times what with the entries being homologated racecars that race-modded roadcars -- like a true GT car should be. im also a little insulted that you would go as far as saying that all that McLaren Cars did was "just stick a wing and some skirts on it" [img]http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/eek7.gif

Not quite sure what you mean. McLaren have always said it was not their original intention to build a race car. GM even said "Don't come back to me later and say you want to race it". Not quite sure why you are insulted by what I said - that is about all they did. Underneath they added some different intrumentation, stripped some of the niceties out, remapped the engine and added straight through pipes to the exhaust. That was about it. Oh of course there was the restrictor that brought the power down to less than the road car!

Originally Posted by Stratoraptor

are you saying that McLaren Cars extended the rear on the F1 GT just so that they could have more room to put the rear wing back further on the 1997 F1 GTR?

No, that's not quite what I meant (although I didn't explain it in the easiest way). I was saying that they homolgated the GT because the rules said so. The GT was just the road version of the GTR. They needed to build a similar road car if they wanted to redesign the GTR so thats what they did.

Anyway, McLaren seems to be confused by its own figures since I got the weight as 1120kg out the back of Driving Ambition. Cheers for the link though. Never realised there was so much info hidden away on the old site.

Originally Posted by Stratoraptor

you might also notice that a the site says a stock F1 GT makes just as much downforce as an F1 LM, which could be interpreted as any McLaren with an HDK including the 1995 and 1996 F1 GTR. kinda sounds difficult to believe...

I dont think thats too impossible to believe. One high level wing at a short distance from the body as opposed to a Gurney-like flap at a much greater leverage potential in addition to the greatly extend front. The original F1 was not designed to have a high level of downforce, the 95 GTR was produced from the budget of just 5 cars and only had one day of wind tunneling. You'd better hope the 97 car was a lot better so it's more than possible to envisage the GT of being nearly as good.

Don't want to start an arguement. Just enjoying discussing the car I love.

[Stratoraptor]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bernoulli

Don't want to start an arguement. Just enjoying discussing the car I love.

relax. those that love and appreciate the car are all friends here

Originally Posted by Mr. Bernoulli

Not quite sure what you mean. McLaren have always said it was not their original intention to build a race car. GM even said "Don't come back to me later and say you want to race it". Not quite sure why you are insulted by what I said - that is about all they did. Underneath they added some different intrumentation, stripped some of the niceties out, remapped the engine and added straight through pipes to the exhaust. That was about it. Oh of course there was the restrictor that brought the power down to less than the road car!

exactly. turns out that McLaren Cars did more than "just stick a wing and some skirts on it," no? they upgraded the F1 to become a true race car from the inside out.

and the S70/3 GTR engine in the 1996 F1 GTR and the S70/2 GTR in the 1997 were the ones that were restricted in power. the S70/3 GTR of the 1995 F1 GTR had a boost in power to 640bhp. besides, it was the regulations that requred the decent in power for the later generations of the F1 GTR.

Originally Posted by Mr. Bernoulli

No, that's not quite what I meant (although I didn't explain it in the easiest way). I was saying that they homolgated the GT because the rules said so. The GT was just the road version of the GTR. They needed to build a similar road car if they wanted to redesign the GTR so thats what they did.

i am well familiar with the rules of homologation in GT racing. i just thought that you were trying to pass off the elongated rear deck of the F1 GT just to move the wng further back which sounded completely groundless. excuse me if i didnt interpret you statement correctly.

Originally Posted by Peloton25

Not to interrupt, but the F1 GT came along after all the '97 F1 GTRs were built, so nothing on the F1 GT was done for the 1997 F1 GTR, it was quite the opposite really. I would go so far as to argue that if the rules didn't require it, I doubt there would have ever been an F1 GT at all.

>8^)
ER

im all too familiar with the history of the later GT1 years. the cars in the class were built as racecars first with road-legal homologation cars which their sole purpose was to alllow their racing cousins entry into the class, cars like the 996 GT1 and the infamous CLK-GTR. what disappoints me was that McLaren did produce a "true" GT car and were very successful with it. then came along opponents of the Porsche and Mercedes like and McLaren had no choice but to evolve their racecar into more of a Group C car like the others which led to building a purpose-built race car with a few chassis for homolgation reasons.

can you tell me the dates (month and year will do fine) of when the first 1997 F1 GTR was completed, the date of the first race the cars competed in, and the date of the completed 56XPGT and that of 58F1GT?

also, does anybody know if the F1 GT has any upgrades to its suspension over the standard F1?

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by Stratoraptor

can you tell me the dates (month and year will do fine) of when the first 1997 F1 GTR was completed, the date of the first race the cars competed in, and the date of the completed 56XPGT and that of 58F1GT?

Unfortunately, I don't have real production dates on the cars - that would be a cool thing to have. Based on the Chassis History included with "Driving Ambition" I can tell you that the first long tail F1 completed was GTR #19R, and it was the last F1 built in 1996. The next 9 F1s built were the remaining long tail GTRs #20R through #28R, but they were not completed in order. The build order is listed as #21R, #23R, #22R, #20R, #25R, #24R, #27R, #26R, & #28R.

Only then, after all the race versions had been built, was the F1 GT prototype '56XPGT' completed. Then McLaren Cars built 8 normal F1 road cars prior to building the pair of the customer F1 GTs - and '54F1GT' was completed before '58F1GT'. Only three more normal F1s were completed before the end of 1997.

The first race of the '97 FIA GT season was held at Hockenheim on April 13th, 1997. Only five of the 10 '97 F1 GTRs competed though so it's hard to say if all were completed at that point. I'd assume they were not, as none of the last four cars completed in the build order list (#24R, #27R, #26R, & #28R) were present. GTR #27R would make it's debut at the following race at Silverstone on May 11th, 1997. GTR's #24R & 28R debutted at the fourth race of the season, the Nurburgring 4-Hours, on June 29th. The only one I haven't mentioned so far outside of the development car #19R, is GTR #26R which wasn't used until the 5th race at Spa held on July 20th. GTR #19R was only raced at the 1000KMs of Suzuka in 1997 before moving on to compete in the JGTC from '99 through 2002 I believe.

An interesting note is that the the GTRs never all competed at the same time. Most of the '97 FIA GT season saw a maximum of 6 long tail GTRs on the track at any time, with only the Suzuka race having a total of 7 when #19R competed under the LARK livery. It seems that many of the cars were swapped out during the season for back up cars - possibly due to damage or mechanical problems, or maybe just to have a fresher car to go against the increased competition from Mercedes and Porsche. In fact, four of the cars were originally completed with the Gulf Team Davidoff livery, and four with the Team BMW Motorsport livery leaving only the development car and #27R, the Parabolica Motorsport GTR as the oddballs.

That's probably a more detailed answer in some respects than you were looking for, but I figure that if I have the information available, then I might as well pass it along.

also, does anybody know if the F1 GT has any upgrades to its suspension over the standard F1?

Specifically, I don't have the details. However, it's easy to tell by simply comparing the width of the front and rear tracks on the short and long tail cars that the long tail cars would have needed either significantly different mounting points, or completely different control arms. The front track on the short tailed GTRs is listed 1570mm and the rear is listed as 1464 as measured from the centerline of the tires. The long tail GTRs track is listed as 1620mm in the front, and 1582mm in the rear, again measured by the centerline of the tires. Also the width of the two types of GTRs is listed as being a full 100mm different at the widest point, going from 1820mm to 1920mm. Not to mention the changes in downforce from the different designs which would most certainly mandate a change in the shock valving and spring rates in order to take advantage of the improvements made on the longtail cars.

>8^)
ER

[LongtailGT®™]

Yeah, whoever said Longtail GTR is faster than a short tail is actually explained in one of Races (japan tour 1998? I forget) and is depicted here