Burns goes to Subaru to bring up the rear.

[Veyron]

http://rally.racing-live.com/en/head...18164553.shtml

[freakray]

Good Morning Brian, nice to see you're awake today

did you see the thread on Makinen's retirement?

[Veyron]

Originally Posted by freakray

Good Morning Brian, nice to see you're awake today

did you see the thread on Makinen's retirement?

Yup. What's your opinion on Subaru? Car too big and heavy? Seems everyone's making the tight hatches these days.

[freakray]

I don't see it as too big and heavy, considering the whole car is constructed keeping the WRC minimum weights and sizes in mind, the car is exactly where it needs to be to be within the rules.

Subaru Impreza WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg (WRC minimum weight allowed)
Overall Length: 4415 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel base: 2535 mm

Peugeot 206 WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4005 mm (WRC minimum length = 4000mm)
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel base: 2468 mm

Ford Focus WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4152 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel Base: 2635 mm

Care to Compare?

For being slightly longer in overall body you are calling the Impreza "too big and heavy"?
In that case, the Pug is too heavy and so is the Focus
And look at that wheel base on the Focus....that's virtually a limo in comparison to the rest then

[Veyron]

Originally Posted by freakray

I don't see it as too big and heavy, considering the whole car is constructed keeping the WRC minimum weights and sizes in mind, the car is exactly where it needs to be to be within the rules.

Subaru Impreza WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg (WRC minimum weight allowed)
Overall Length: 4415 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel base: 2535 mm

Peugeot 206 WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4005 mm (WRC minimum length = 4000mm)
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel base: 2468 mm

Ford Focus WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4152 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel Base: 2635 mm

Care to Compare?

For being slightly longer in overall body you are calling the Impreza "too big and heavy"?
In that case, the Pug is too heavy and so is the Focus
And look at that wheel base on the Focus....that's virtually a limo in comparison to the rest then

Thanks for the comparo, I didn't say it was too big and heavy, just asking. Just wanted your opinion on why they've fallen behind the past couple years.

[freakray]

Okay, so I misunderstood you, shoot the frigging messenger.....

Subaru were only really a dominant team for a 3 year period, the first 3 years of the actual WRC, those 3 years the rest of the teams were playing catch up and Subaru were relishing in the glory.
I think some of the problem there is Subaru were too busy enjoying the glory and didn't pay enough attention to the future, which is now.
They got caught out.....

Why they haven't got back up there.....I guess we could blame so many factors from team principles to budgets, but I think the main thing they need to be doing is actively pursueing a better engine and transmission.
IIRC the last major engine leap forward came on the P2000, that's too long ago now when you consider the evolutions everyone else has gone through for the most part.

In reality Brian, I don't think it is so much the weight and dimensions of the car but more likely the attitude of the team in general.

Potentially, they have the ability to win, the question is whether they will?

How are you ever going to win a race when you start the race thinking you're going to come second?

[ales]

Raymond! You know damn well that the lighter the car is to start with, the more balast can be added to the lowest possible points of the car to make it balanced better. And without ballast the Impreza is a heavy car compared to the others, as were the WRC Lancers. But I also agree on other points - the attitude of the team did seem complacent.

[freakray]

Alex!
You seem to forget we DON'T know the curb weight of the Impreza prior to any ballast being added or whether any is really added, since all the cars come up at the same curb weight in the manufacturers spec.

We do know that the Impreza always used to jump pretty flat but it tends to dip its nose more now which suggests it has gained SOME weight.
The Focus used to be the worst for the jumps but Ford have tilted and tweaked the engine position and moved enough of the weight (read; driver/co-driver) far enough back to remedy this problem (wonder if they are border-line on the seat position rules).
The Pug has the obvious advantage when it comes to initial weight since the car is so small, the over-fenders making the difference to keep it within regulation, and Peugeot have it jumping flat now suggesting they have the balance perfect.

But, at the end of the day, all the cars are on the start line at the same curb weight which means it is only the centre of gravity which is the major difference and this obviously affects the handling.

BTW. I couldn't find specs on the Xsara to include it in the comparison.

[Guido]

also one of the factors of a "lesser" period for Subaru - I think - is Dave Richards leaving Prodrive as a master organiser/motivator for the team. Would love to see them do better, then my next car can be an Impreza Plus or Forrester.

[gnasha]

Originally Posted by freakray

BTW. I couldn't find specs on the Xsara to include it in the comparison.

Citroen Xsara WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4167 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel Base: 2555 mm

Skoda Fabia WRC:
Weight: 1230 kg <<<same as the Subaru
Overall Length: 4002 mm
Overall Width: 1770 mm
Wheel Base: 2462 mm

[ales]

Obviously, all cars in WRC will be 1230 kg. The question is how much of this is ballast, and, consequently, how low the centre of gravity is and how much play with front/rear (etc) weight distribution you have. As Phil put it nicely in this thread, if you have a heavier chassis (Lancer/Impreza), you're at a disadvantage to start with. Ford went to great lenths with moving the centre of gravity as low as possible, and it pays up big time at the moment - they probably have the fastest car. Having said all that, Solberg seems to be able to work around that disadvantege quite often, so I won't say the car is too big and heavy, it just offers less play to sort out the ballance

[freakray]

Originally Posted by ales

Obviously, all cars in WRC will be 1230 kg. The question is how much of this is ballast, and, consequently, how low the centre of gravity is and how much play with front/rear (etc) weight distribution you have. As Phil put it nicely in this thread, if you have a heavier chassis (Lancer/Impreza), you're at a disadvantage to start with. Ford went to great lenths with moving the centre of gravity as low as possible, and it pays up big time at the moment - they probably have the fastest car. Having said all that, Solberg seems to be able to work around that disadvantege quite often, so I won't say the car is too big and heavy, it just offers less play to sort out the ballance

Pretty much along the lines of what I said previously.

[Veyron]

also one of the factors of a "lesser" period for Subaru - I think - is Dave Richards leaving Prodrive

This is an important point, also I think the Scooby engine seems to lack top end. They are selling more cars than ever so they should have some developement money in the pot. Would like to see them return to a more competitive form.