'97 Grand prix takes long to start, P0441 DTC and bubbling brake pedal

[tblake]

I think if I remember right, the spec I leand in tech college was 5k ohm per foot and no more than 10k ohm. Drive it with the old wires back on there and let us know what happens.

[richtazz]

Just for clarification, since his DMM was set to the 20k scale, a reading of 7.00 is actually 7,000 ohms. I was always taught that in a noise suppression style wire 500-600 ohms per inch of length was acceptable, which is right at Tim's spec as well. The site's figures you posted the link to are a little all-over-the-place if you ask me.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

I think if I remember right, the spec I leand in tech college was 5k ohm per foot and no more than 10k ohm. Drive it with the old wires back on there and let us know what happens.

Originally Posted by richtazz

Just for clarification, since his DMM was set to the 20k scale, a reading of 7.00 is actually 7,000 ohms. I was always taught that in a noise suppression style wire 500-600 ohms per inch of length was acceptable, which is right at Tim's spec as well. The site's figures you posted the link to are a little all-over-the-place if you ask me.

Thanks for your help once again

Oh boy, I messed big time ! I never noticed the K in the resistance readings, I didn't pay enough attention altough my DMM was in the 20K scale in deed. I'm starting to forget how to use a multimeter! LOL.

So, with the info you posted the new cables might be within specifications. I took the car for a test drive today with the old cables and the driving still sucks, it was very rough, actually with the old cables the long cranking time is back, so definitely all those wires are in a bad state, also when I came back home I noticed again a fuel smell after turning the engine off. Is there any chance that I might not have fitted correctly the spark plugs? I mean, is there enough space to mess the installation?. When I took the spark plugs out they had a ~0.052 gap wich I changed to 0.06 as my haynes manual says; could it be possible that I have a bad coil pack since the problem gets worse when the engine is warm?. Also I noticed that my fuel gauge went all the way down and after turning the car off and on again it was fine, it might just be a coincidence or there might be something related with it?.

One final question: are Bosch spark plug wires any good?

Best regards to everyone...

[grandprixgtx00]

Originally Posted by olopezm

One final question: are Bosch spark plug wires any good?

personally, i stay away from Bosch anything like the plague

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by grandprixgtx00

personally, i stay away from Bosch anything like the plague

LOL, I was thinking on exchanging those duralast wires I bought for a set of Bosch wires. Thanks for he info buddy, that way I won't make the same mistake again.



tblake: I did the thing for the brake selftest, I stepped on the brake before turning the engine on and voila! the noise and the bubbling pedal appeared as sson as I released the brakes, it happened everytime I did the test so you were right, those symptoms are normal and related to the ABS selftest. That's one more crossed out symptom on the list, now I'm back to the ignition problem.

Best regards to everyone...

[tblake]

Is the SES light on or flashing?

Not sure if I asked this, but with your FPR guage, prime the system and let pressure build, and then see if pressure holds.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

Is the SES light on or flashing?

Not sure if I asked this, but with your FPR guage, prime the system and let pressure build, and then see if pressure holds.

The SES light was on, I had it scanned at autozone and the code was P0441 again, actually there were 2 codes reporting P0441 one of them was marked as pending (stored in memory) the guy told me both codes might still show up because of that pending code so he asked me if I wanted him to erase both codes and reset the light, I said yes and drove for about 2 hours to test the car, the light didn't came on again.

This morning I reinstalled the new wires again and everything seems to be working fine no rough driving, I checked the spark plugs and the 2,4,6 had a bright redish tone, two of them had a brown spot on the insulator and I don't remember seeing this the first time I changed the wires. The other 3 had a pale redish tone; I think pale redish should be the normal condition right?. The only difference is that I removed the metallic sleeve on the boot of each wire, as far as i know this shouldn't affect but I felt a big difference while driving without them.

I haven't checked if the pressure holds, I will check that tomorrow morning. Thanks for your help tblake

[richtazz]

Regapping the plugs may have been a mistake. It is unwise to regap platinum/iridium plugs, as you could inadvertently knock the platinum/iridium disc from the ground electrode, as well as mis-align them causing more harm than good. Occassionally, due to revisions, the recommended gap size may be changed (I know for a fact they did this on the Silverado/Sierra full-size trucks) to correct a known mis-fire issue. Just to reiterate, never re-gap platinum/iridium tipped plugs, you could do more harm than good. If you notice they are way off out of the box, return them to where you bought them and ask for a replacement rather than attempting to re-gap, as they may have been dropped or otherwise physically damaged.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by richtazz

Regapping the plugs may have been a mistake. It is unwise to regap platinum/iridium plugs, as you could inadvertently knock the platinum/iridium disc from the ground electrode, as well as mis-align them causing more harm than good. Occassionally, due to revisions, the recommended gap size may be changed (I know for a fact they did this on the Silverado/Sierra full-size trucks) to correct a known mis-fire issue. Just to reiterate, never re-gap platinum/iridium tipped plugs, you could do more harm than good. If you notice they are way off out of the box, return them to where you bought them and ask for a replacement rather than attempting to re-gap, as they may have been dropped or otherwise physically damaged.

Hello richtazz thanks for the info I had no idea about that, jut like I had no idea what type of spark plugs the mechanic (same guy who broke many components in the engine) used last year, the only thing I can tell for sure is they are AC Delco. Maybe that's the reason why the car sometimes lacks of power, just to make sure I will change the spark plugs next week, I was planning to do so anyway. Thanks again for your help.

I couldn't check if the fuel pressure drops after priming the system as tblake suggested, I'll check that tomorrow and post back.

Best regards...

[olopezm]

Hello people, it's me again; today I drove on the highway and I found out a big problem, the car still lacks of power, I stepped on the gas and the overdrive kicked in but the RPM's won't go any higher than 3800-4000; I was doing 60-70 MPH and the RPM's were at 2000-2500, cruising at 50 MPH the RPM's will be about 1500; sometimes when I'm accelerating after a red light the car misses or hesitates. Would this definitely indicate bad spark plugs and wires? Can something else be wrong? please don't say "catalytic converter".

P.S. The SES light isn't on and there is no smoke coming from the exhaust, however somedays I can notice a rich fuel mixture smell wich irritates my eyes.

Here are some images of my spark plugs, as I mentioned before 2 of them have brown dots, these can be seen on the second and third pictures; the first picture corresponds to the front plugs, the three of them are in the same condition; the fourth picture is of the metallic sleeve I took off from the wire boots.

[tblake]

Yikes, they all look a little on the rich side. Whether that is because they are bing fould out due to bad spark, or if they are truling getting too much gas. Have access to a scan tool that you can watch data streams?

Have you checked all the vacuum lines, can't remember if this is a GTP, but if so, make sure that the vacuum line that runs from the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side to the FPR and to the MAP sensor, make sure that is in good shape.

Have you tried driving it with your MAF sensor unplugged yet?

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

Yikes, they all look a little on the rich side. Whether that is because they are bing fould out due to bad spark, or if they are truling getting too much gas. Have access to a scan tool that you can watch data streams?

Have you checked all the vacuum lines, can't remember if this is a GTP, but if so, make sure that the vacuum line that runs from the bottom of the lower intake manifold on the passenger side to the FPR and to the MAP sensor, make sure that is in good shape.

Have you tried driving it with your MAF sensor unplugged yet?

Hello tblake, i don't have access to a scanner like those; whenever i've needed one is from autozone and doesn't supports live sensor data. I already changed the MAF sensor with a reman from autozone, when I drove with the sensor unplugged the erratic RPM's problem happened less than with it plugged in. At the moment the car lacks of power and the rpm's altough they are constant wont go higher than 3500-4000, today the car overheated when I was on the freeway, i removed the thermostat and now my A/C blows cooler air than before wich is very nice so the only problem left is the lack of power, low rpm's (wixh should be tied to the lack of power i guess) and sometimes a gas smell when i turn the car off. Tomorrow I'll be buying new spark plugs and wires.

One last question Is it normal for some moist to come out from the exhaust as vapor? AFAIK the catalytic converter transforms the fumes into water and CO2 so there should be no problem, is that correct? There is no visible white nor blue smoke coming from the exhaust, actually there is no smoke at all.

Best regards...

P.S. The car is a GP GT with 106k miles and all the vacuum lines seem to be ok either at the front and the back of the car, I replaced the vacuum line that goes to the FPR, the Intake manifold (i guess should be the MAP you mention wich I already changed too since it was literally broken) and finally to the transmission modulator (I think that's what it's called).

[olopezm]

This is an update on my last post from yesterday...

Just to let you know guys I changed the spark plugs and wires today with a set of "Autolite" spark plugs and "KEM" wires (these definitely feel and look much better, better quality!). After the change I drove the car and everything is working fine, no more lack of power nor hesitating, I guess I made TWO BIG MISTAKES, the first one was buying duralast wires and the second one regappin platinum plugs, I had to learn the bad way. The SES light came on again, I couldn´t have the car scanned today because I was very tired, the only thing I had in mind was being at home; I suspect the DTC must be a P0441 code again since that's the one from the last time, I will take a very close look at the vacuum lines on the engine again, if everything is OK I will change the canister purge solenoid.

One last question Is it normal for some moist to come out from the exhaust as vapor? AFAIK the catalytic converter transforms the fumes into water and CO2 so there should be no problem, is that correct? There is no visible white nor blue smoke coming from the exhaust, actually there is no smoke at all.

The car is a GP GT with 106k miles and all the vacuum lines seem to be ok either at the front and the back of the car, I replaced the vacuum line that goes to the FPR, the Intake manifold (i guess should be the MAP you mention wich I already changed too since it was literally broken) and finally to the transmission modulator (I think that's what it's called).

Best regards...

[tblake]

sweet! Sounds good!

And a little moisture out the tail pipe is normal. In the summer time you will see it drip. In the winter it comes out as vapor and can be seen as white smoke.

[olopezm]

Originally Posted by tblake

sweet! Sounds good!

And a little moisture out the tail pipe is normal. In the summer time you will see it drip. In the winter it comes out as vapor and can be seen as white smoke.

Great! Thanks for your answer tblake.

At last I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel LOL. Thanks to all of you guys for your time and your help!

Yesterday I was so tired that I forgot to mention that 5 of the spark plugs were fouled, the remaining one's (actually cilynder #3, same one with a broken wire) insulator was a little grayish/redish tone; if the others were completely fouled, why that one wasn't?, even after I installed those duralast wires and regapped platinum plugs wich is what caused my rough driving problems .

Best regards...

This topic is coming to an end... !