Good Samaritan Gun Use

[fredjacksonsan]

That will start a whole new argument....but an incredibly good question IMO. Have to think about it....

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by DGB454

I haven't been following this whole thing that closely but I have a question for people who are for gun control. How do you feel about guns that are for sport? Should those type of guns also be banned?

The problem is most of the people who favor gun control don't know the difference. You could take the average hunting or target shooting rifle, take off the wood stock and put on a black plastic one and their knees would start knocking, trembling in fear of your new "assault rifle." They hear "semi automatic" and think of machine guns, but they don't realize the operation of these guns isn't much different from a 50 year old hunting rifle. A lot of them call military style rifles "high power," but a lot of them are the same or less than your typical hunting rifle. They call .50cal bolt action rifles "military sniper rifles," when in actuality, these rifles were designed in the public sector, for civilian sales, then later adopted by the military.

To sum it up, the majority of them don't know the difference between a sporting firearm and any other. And that includes a lot "pro-gun" people.

If they want to ban something, they should at least learn a little about what they want to ban. Go to their local shooting range and meet some of the folks there, see how things work, maybe take a few shots, etc. They can't expect anyone to take them seriously when they know nothing about the subject at hand.

Not to mention there's still that whole Bill of Rights thing, which makes no mention of "sporting," but does however mention the "security of a free state."

[Gotti]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Just seems a shame that it has to work that waty in just one country in thte civilised world.Criminals don't have such ready access access to firearms here, because,

A/firearms ownership is not seen as a neccesity here

B/those who do own firearms privately are obliged under law to secure them properly and transport them responsibly.

C/People who want to own flak jackets and AK47's are assumed to be of antisocial tendency.

I havent read the whole thread but I'd like to point out that your country is a minority, and that would never work in America. If they tried to take away peoples priviledges for gun ownership, honest citizens would lose their guns and criminals would keep theirs. You think criminals get their guns from gun stores?? They get them illegaly, so no laws would stop them from aquiring guns. Then honest people wouldnt have guns and criminals would, whats the point of that?

Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?

Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.

[Twitch1]

Fred- I hear ya guy! I just get tired of hearing the sheep shit about how perfect NZ is. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of websites that tell a whole different tale about NZ crime than our prevaricating pervert does. I'm tired of America bashing pukes from isolated nowhere locales ranting incoherently about Bush, US citizens and on and on. Take some time and read those rambling tirades and haranges that just go on and on never addressing any precise subject but go off instead attempting to verbally debase the US. How many times have jagoffs hijacked threads to thump their rhetorical bullshit bibles. Just look at the venom coming outta this guy. He's sick.


Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.

Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.

[Muscletang]

Originally Posted by taranaki

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/national/22shoot.html

Another triumph for American gun law.

You talk about us gun owners turning the story around well you should stop yourself. The gun laws had nothing to do with this at all. The kid stole his grandfathers guns and that's what he used to go kill people with. If the kid would of stole his grandfather's BMW would your quote read, "Another triumph for the American automotive laws!"?

Originally Posted by taranaki

Makes all your NRA bullshit excuses look as pathetic as they are. If you want to argue that your country is better than mine, come up with a few incidents where children have been murdered in their New Zealand schools, or shot at at random by a sniper while they fueled up with gas.

I never said NZ is better than the U.S. in any of my post to my knowledge. The thing is NZ has the same population of the state I live in, Oklahoma. In Oklahoma there has only been one school shooting and nobody was killed. There have also been no sniper attacks ever. The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad.

Originally Posted by taranaki

Until then, your country's gun laws blow, and you have no statistics relative to the argument.

What gun law would that be, the 2nd amendment?

Originally Posted by taranaki

Such a shame your 'good Samaritan' gun user couldn't prevent this tragedy.Could have something to do with the fact that he got shot dead at the last one.

You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else.

Originally Posted by taranaki

Enjoy your guns gentlemen. I'll bet none of you would show up at these children's funerals spouting your ridiculous nonsense about how good it is to own one.

Oh I'm enjoying my right to own a gun you can count on that. Also, what "ridiculous nonsense" are you talking about? I wouldn't go to a kid's funeral and say "I love guns la la la" because that is very disrespectful. I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

You talk about us gun owners turning the story around well you should stop yourself. The gun laws had nothing to do with this at all. The kid stole his grandfathers guns and that's what he used to go kill people with. If the kid would of stole his grandfather's BMW would your quote read, "Another triumph for the American automotive laws!"?

If you can find an article for me on any kid going nuts with a car and causing this much intentional death andd injury, I'll take this as a valid argument.As it stands, you are just ducking the issue.

The U.S. has far more people and far more criminals that what NZ will ever have. If this is a numbers game then the U.S. is going to win, even if it's good or bad.

Which is why it should be made harder for them to access guns,obviously.

You talk down on good smaritans but in the area I live the news is filled with them. I live out in the country with a bunch of country folks so everybody pretty much has a gun. It's hard to open the paper and not see "Man tries to break into house, neighbor shoots him" or something else.

I don't talk down on good Samaritans, only on the abuse of such names by Gun-toting surrealists.Check your Bible, you'll find that the Good Samaritan actually helped a victim of crime, not committed one.In the real world, if you go off vigilante stye and open fire on another person, YOU GET PROSECUTED AS A COMMON CRIMINAL.

I don't know what you've been watching or reading taranaki but your views are messed up. It seems to me that you believe anybody who owns a gun is stupid and not in their right mind. I ask you to rethink this out because us gun owners are people too.

Sorry buddy, but it seems to me that you are the one with the attitude problem.You live in a counttry with one of the worst rates of gun crime in the world, yet you go on the offensive when people point out what must surely be staggeriingly obvious to you...that feeling safe at night because you have a loaded gun handy is no substitute for knowing that you are safe without one.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

Fred- I hear ya guy! I just get tired of hearing the sheep shit about how perfect NZ is. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of websites that tell a whole different tale about NZ crime than our prevaricating pervert does. I'm tired of America bashing pukes from isolated nowhere locales ranting incoherently about Bush, US citizens and on and on. Take some time and read those rambling tirades and haranges that just go on and on never addressing any precise subject but go off instead attempting to verbally debase the US. How many times have jagoffs hijacked threads to thump their rhetorical bullshit bibles. Just look at the venom coming outta this guy. He's sick.


Snoopis- there's just a whole bunch of people that believe tin horn politicians passing some feel-good law is going to be the magic bullet on top of over 20,000 other firearms laws. Silly.

Gotti- you have it right. Just because some provincial or draconian law works in some quaint country somewhere doesn't mean it will work here or that we'd even want it. I don't care what country in the world you go to. If you want drugs or a gun and have $$ you're gonna get it laws or no laws. Watch it Gotti talking about Switzerland handling firearms well or that quack will be attacking US society and all our faults again.

Nice line of abuse there Twitch, I'll take it that you STILL don't have the skills to debate like a man.Nowhere in my posts do I ever target US citizens, and I'd argue that the majority of them are perfectly sane and reasonable people.Like any country, it has its share of knuckle-dragging fucktards, but just because every worthless flagwaver would rather carry a gun and vote for Bush, it doesn't automatically follow that in my book anyone who votes Republican or has a gun is a moron.

Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth.I have issues with a couple of aspects of your culture, but that does not mean that you have to start with childish crap like this.Unless of course, you are intellectually incapable of debating, in which case you should maybe stay out of arguments that you can't win.

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Gotti

I havent read the whole thread but I'd like to point out that your country is a minority, and that would never work in America. If they tried to take away peoples priviledges for gun ownership, honest citizens would lose their guns and criminals would keep theirs. You think criminals get their guns from gun stores?? They get them illegaly, so no laws would stop them from aquiring guns. Then honest people wouldnt have guns and criminals would, whats the point of that?

Do tell me where these criminals get their guns from...I've heard pro-gun arguments that say they are not bought from stores, nor are they stolen from legal owners.Is there some secret branch of Smith andWesson that only sells to convicted criminals? Is there a hotline that only crims can use to import their firearms of choice??1-800-AK47, maybe?? It's time to favce up to ythe fact that there is no shortage of armed offending in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED.
[/quote]
Like i said Australia is a minority, there are plenty of countries that have guns everywhere and are safe. Look at Switzerland, have you bin to switzerland? When you walk around you see people carrying guns everywhere, rifles on their back, pistols in their pants and its one of the safest countries in the world. How do you explain that?

Switzerland has a law that states everybody from the ages of 20-42 is required to own a gun and they even have local shooting competitions for 12-16 year olds.... so trying to take all the guns out of the country isnt the solution.[/quote]
Yes, let's compare Switzerland, with one of the highest standards of living in the world, and a history of armed neutrality, with,say the Bronx, or Watts, or,well any other crime centre in America.Let's compare a country that expects the highest standard of behaviour with firearms with the confrotationalle and bullying attitude of the US,where it's ok to shoot as long as the other guy is looking at you a bit funny...

I'f you knew the laws that you quote so freely a little better, you would also know that the Swiss requirement for all males between 20 and 42 to be armed and trained for military service also comes with a rider.The ammunition issued to them is counted and sealed.Break the seal without cause, you are in trouble.Every rouund must be accounted for, and if abused, you get jailed.

In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.

[fredjacksonsan]

The Swiss also have a mandatory military service requirement of 2 years.

[SnoopisTDI]

Originally Posted by taranaki

I don't talk down on good Samaritans, only on the abuse of such names by Gun-toting surrealists.Check your Bible, you'll find that the Good Samaritan actually helped a victim of crime, not committed one.In the real world, if you go off vigilante stye and open fire on another person, YOU GET PROSECUTED AS A COMMON CRIMINAL.

Actually, the bible says "let he who has no sword sell his garb to obtain one," or something along those lines(sorry, I'm not Christian). The Bible says you have a right to protect yourself and your family.

Further, you seem to be very confused of what vigilante means. Vigilante justice is when someone obtains a suspected criminal, often on hearsay or baseless suspicion, after a crime has been comitted, and punishes/kills the suspect without giving them a trial.

In this case, the good samaritan caught the murderer IN THE ACT and attmepted to put an end to it in order to save lives. Big difference.

In short.Swiss gun owners have been taught that keeping a gun is a responsibility,and one not to be taken lightly.The buffons from the NRA, on the other hand will tell you that gun ownership is a right, and so is shooting at peopl;e as a first line of defence.It's horeshit like that that has dragged what could have been a viable stategy for gun management into armed mayhem.

You've got it bass-ackwards. The "buffoons from the NRA" are practically meticulous when it comes to safe handling and storage of firearms. To say they encourage safety with firearms would be a grand understatement. They know it's a responsibility- but that responsibility is not guns. Guns are a means to an end. The responsibility is "the security of a free state," as affirmed in the Bill of Rights.

It's the gun-grabbing hoplophobes that want to avoid responsibility. They want to blame everything and anything but their beloved unfortunate criminals. They don't want to solve any problems, they shirk THEIR responsibility by placing all blame on an inadequate object instead of dealing with the real issues.

As far as gun ownership being a right, well that's half correct. The right is self defense- guns are just the most effective tool for the job. If you can't have the tools necessary to espouse a right, than what good is that right? The answer is none. If you lived in a land of "free speech" where tongues were illegal... would that really be free speech? What about "freedom of religion" in a land where bibles and churches are illegal?

The majority who hold firearms responsibly are being discredited by tthe twitching lunatics who cannot accept that it is not their right ore their responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of the wild west.

No, the majority who hold firearms responsibly know that self defense is right, and we are being discredited by a few criminals and a handful of ignorant people.

[Twitch1]

"Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth."

Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.

"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.

You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.

[Muscletang]

Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A careful review of 18 academic studies shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. International evidence tells a similar story.

Myth No. 2: State adopting Right to Carry Laws Allowing People to Carry concealed weapons will only increase violent crimes: The nation's violent crime rate has decreased every year since 1991 and in 2002 hit a 23-year low. In the same period, 17 states adopted and 13 states improved RTC laws. RTC states have lower violent crime rates, on average: 24% lower total violent crime, 22% lower murder, 37% lower robbery, and 20% lower aggravated assault. The five states with the lowest violent crime rates are RTC states. California a restricted rights state has nearly double the the murders of the highest RTC state and only 176 fewer than the top 3 RTC states combined. When Combined, Restricted rights and No right states (12 in all) these states comprise 38.7 percent (or 5178*) of the total murders in the US a significant number when compared to the 38 RTC states which in total account for 61.3 percent (or 8029**). (Data: FBI) Studying crime trends in every county in the U.S., John Lott and David Mustard found, "allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons deters violent crimes and it appears to produce no increase in accidental deaths. If those states which did not have Right to Carry concealed gun provisions had adopted them in 1992, approximately 1,570 murders; 4,177 rapes; and over 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided yearly....The estimated annual gain from allowing concealed handguns is at least $6.214 billion....(W)hen state concealed handgun laws went into effect in a county, murders fell by 8.5 percent, and rapes and aggravated assaults fell by 5 and 7 percent." ("Crime, Deterrence, and Right To Carry Concealed Handguns," 1996.) *- Washington D.C. stats not included (usually significant) **- Florida stats unavailable.

Myth No 3: Gun control laws reduce crime. The nation already has 20,000 gun control laws, and the police arrest 220,000 people a year on weapons violations. Yet the violent crime is not deterred. Moreover, considering that fewer than 1 percent of all guns are involved in a crime and only 12 percent of all violent crimes involve a gun, gun control laws could have only a modest effect on crime - even if they worked exactly as intended, which they don't. For example, New Jersey, Hawaii and Washington, D.C., experienced sharp murder-rate increases after passing tough gun control laws. Canada, Taiwan and Jamaica reported similar experiences.

Myth No. 4: Guns are of little help in defending against criminals. In fact, guns are a big help. Each year, potential victims kill from 2,000 to 3,000 criminals and wound an additional 9,000 to 17,000. And mishaps are rare. Private citizens mistakenly kill innocent people only 30 times a year, compared with about 330 mistaken killings by police. Criminals succeed in taking a gun away from an armed victim less than 1 percent of the time.

Myth No. 5: Killing someone is the only reason to buy a handgun. The vast majority of gun owners cite protection from crime as one of the main reasons they own a gun. And for good reason. Americans use guns for self-protection about one million times a year. In 98 percent of the cases, they simply brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot.

Myth No. 6: People who buy guns are more prone to violence and crime than are other people. Violence and crime are higher among black than white, lower-income than middle- or upper-income, young than middle-aged, single than married, and urban than rural individuals - all contrary to the pattern of gun ownership.

Myth No. 7: Killings and other violent crimes were prevalent in the Old West because guns were so plentiful. Much of the violence on the frontier involved clashes with Indians, bandits and foreigners. Even so, the frontier was a lot safer than America is today. There was very little ordinary crime - less than in most cities in the East.

Myth No. 8: Gun controls keep criminals from obtaining guns. In surveys of prisoners, a majority said that prior to imprisonment they had owned a handgun. But fewer than one in six guns had been purchased from a retail dealer. Three-fourths of the felons said they would have no trouble obtaining a gun when they were released, despite legal prohibitions.

Myth No. 9: Required waiting periods would prevent some of the most vicious crimes. If the Brady bill were law, it would not have saved Jim Brady. Nor would it have prevented the Killeen, Texas, massacre or the slaughter at McDonald's in San Ysidro, Calif. However, an instant records check (to identify felons when they try to purchase guns from retail dealers) and better enforcement of existing laws (to turn criminals into convicted felons) might well prevent some vicious crimes.

Myth No. 10: Most murders are committed by people killing friends or family members. The actual number is about one out of five. Most in-household killings are not crimes of passion. They're the culmination of years of abusive behavior, and often it is the abuser who is killed.

Myth No. 11: The availability of guns contributes to crimes of passion. In about 90 percent of "crime-of-passion" domestic homicides, the police had been called in previously to break up violence. In half the cases, the police had been called in five or more times. There is no evidence that a significant number of homicides occur simply because a lethal weapon is handy.

Myth No. 12: Automatic rifles and so-called assault weapons are too dangerous to be left in private hands. Over the past 50 years no civilian has ever used a legally owned machine gun in a violent crime. And despite their repeated use by drug dealers on "Miami Vice" and in the movies, no Uzi has ever been used to kill a police officer. Even gun control advocates concede that so-called assault weapons play a minor role in violent crime.

Myth No. 13: Gun control laws are especially needed to prevent the purchase of "Saturday Night Specials." Inexpensive handguns are involved in only 1 to 3 percent of violent crimes, and criminals are no more likely to use one than any other type of handgun.

Myth No. 14: People don't need guns for self-protection because they can rely on the police. About 83 percent of the population will be victims of violent crime at some point in their lives, and in any given year serious crime touches 25 percent of all households. Considering that, effectively, there is only one police officer on patrol for every 3,300 people, the odds are not likely to improve. And the courts have ruled that government has no duty to protect individual citizens from crime.

Myth No. 15: Gun ownership is not a constitutional right. The Second Amendment reflects the founders' belief that an armed citizenry (called the "general militia") was a necessary precaution against tyranny by our own government and its army. The idea that government has a constitutional right to disarm the general citizenry is totally foreign to the intent of the Constitution's framers.

[Muscletang]

Here are a couple of more stories all filled with facts and figures that back up pro-gun choices. They can be found here: http://www.handguncontrol.net/
I know the name makes you think something else but they're just making fun of the looney left and their ideas.

Handgun Control, Inc. - A Total Stranger To The Truth
http://www.handguncontrol.net/total%20stranger.htm

Why gun control works!
http://www.handguncontrol.net/why_gun_control_works.htm

[Gotti]

Originally Posted by taranaki

Do tell me where these criminals get their guns from...I've heard pro-gun arguments that say they are not bought from stores, nor are they stolen from legal owners.Is there some secret branch of Smith andWesson that only sells to convicted criminals? Is there a hotline that only crims can use to import their firearms of choice??1-800-AK47, maybe??

LMAO Have you ever heard of gun trafficking?! Criminals buy guns from other criminals, you dont have to call 1-800-AK47

If you took away everybodies gun in the US, criminals would still have theirs because they dont register them, the cops dont know who has illegal guns. There would always be gun trafficking, and criminals would still be able to get a gun if they wanted one. Tell me how you could stop that?

[taranaki]

Originally Posted by Twitch1

"Frankly, I'm getting just as tired of your ridiculous dribbling as you are of being told the truth."

Tarinooki- so only YOU are the savior who speaks the one truth? What a load os self righteous crap! You don't discuss or debate you debase and continually rag on the US and yes, the society= the people. Since there isn't any moderator here it's just a fuck-a-thon argument anyway. You're just a mentally constipated loser. So you don't like me. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about Bush or guns in the US or anything you drone on about? Nothing.

"..in the US because GUNS ARE FAR TOO EASILY OBTAINED."
You don't have the slightest idea of the proceedures in place for a citizen to legally purchase a firearm so just stop sounding stupid about it.

You endict our whole society because criminals steal our property (firearms) and then commit crimes? That's totally irrational. Criminals do not legally purchase firearms here. You simply show how ignorant you are when you attempt to comment on laws and social mores of another culture from afar.

Yet again Twitch shows that he can't or won't debate.Also he fails to realise that there is a moderator here - me. You can, however continue to use as much meaningless abuse as you like as a substitute for credible argument.I see no merit in trying to calm an extremist thart I disagree with, particularly when he is doing such a good job of portraying the bizarre mentality of the scared and ignorant element in society.Keep going with your pathetic assertions that I am somehow anti-American, I have determined that you are not intelligent enough for your opinions to be worth shit to me. You'll notice that I don't talk this way to people like Yogs or Gotti....The reason is very simple.While we are poles apart in opinion, both of the members are intelligent enough to bring worthwhile debate to this forum

You sir, are a non-contributor.Your 'opinion' can be summed up in one sentence, and it's worthless.Why don't you shape up, or ship out?