SO whaddya guys know about medium duty trucks?

[Steel]

My boss is looking for a medium duty truck to expand his and my work capabilities in the near future. Right now he's driving a ram 2500 diesel and he's getting tired of having to climb up into the bed all the time, screw around with which tools go where yadda yadda. So he wants to get a medium duty chassis or cutaway cab and put a utilimaster body on it.

So far the only choices for vehicles that utilimaster offers are the GM 4500 series cab chassis (and their cutaway chassis), the GM/Isuzu W-series cab chassis, the Hino cab chassis and the ford E450 cutaway chassis. He specified diesel again too.

I was wondering if some of you knowledgable guys could clue me into the advantages and disadvantages of each. The Hino and W-series only come with 4 cylinder motors which quite frankly seem a bit underpowered on paper, but I don't have any real world experience to really judge them with. Keep in mind that we do tower work, so this truck will be filled to the brim with tools and supplies, and also has to be able to climb fairly steep hills on a regular basis. If you go to www.utilimaster.com and check out the PDV bodies they have, he wants to get the trademaster one (with all the storage compartments on the sides).

[Moppie]

Can you be a little more spefic about the Isuzu and Hino models?
Prehaps a link to the US website for each?

I have some experiance with both brands.
I know nothing about the Ford though, all I can find is a photo of it on the website, no specs or anything.

[Steel]

Well im really curious about the Hino line of trucks. Are they known to be dependable? Are there any quirks or shortfalls with them? How are their engines? In particular, the J05D-TA, which is their 4 cylinder 5 liter. How durable are their various transmissions and suspension parts? How comfortable are they to drive for long periods, ergonomics and such? How easily is minor maintanence done on them?
And i speak of the 145 or 165 series of trucks, which can be found on www.hino.com Im sure you noticed right away though that in the U.S. the trucks aren't the flat-nosed style that they sell in practically every other country (i think its called 'standard' but w/e).

[MagicRat]

I have owned several of these kinds of vehicles. When you get into this field, you can custom tailor many features to suit your needs, including (depending on the manufacturer) box design, wheel base, rear axle location, tires, wheels, overall loading height, final drive ratio, power liftgate, etc.

Often, finding a really knowledgeable dealership who knows how to equip their trucks and can help you analyze your needs is often more important than the actual brand.

Hinos are excellent trucks. They are a bit slow, but are economical and last a long, long time. I had a Hino FB with about 400k miles that drove like new.

IMO for inner city and limited highway use, a Hino or flat nose Isuzu or Mack is great. If you have more highway use, go for a small International or Freightliner, with a 'conventional' cab.

IMO the Chevy and Ford cutaway chassis end up with the excellent Duramax or Power stroke diesels. These units have lots of power and are nice to drive, but are a bit expensive to buy and operate for a commercial basis.

They are great for people's personal pick-up trucks, but when you are running a business and every dollar counts, a long lasting 4 cyl turbodiesel will save much money over the years.

[curtis73]

Of the cab-over medium duty cutaways, the Isuzu NPR seems to be the runaway favorite. The diesel is a tiny bit underpowered, but its not an issue. Its still able to accelerate to highway speed with a full load by the end of the ramp, put it that way.

The F450 is a lot of truck. They are incredible; service life and reliability of chassis components has been shown to be much better, but just try parking one at a Burger King. Its worth it for the nice heavy truck, but a bit gangly.

I would say that between the F450 or the Isuzu, I'd have to take a look at a few things. For long term butt comfort I would either avoid the NPR or look for custom seats. They aren't a comfy vehicle, but they are much more compact. You can get the same storage and space in a much shorter wheelbase and overall vehicle size.

I guess what I'm saying is, if given the choice I would choose one of those two.

[Steel]

Compactness is not an issue - there's generally plenty of parking around a tower, and very little work is located in the inner city, so I think he's going go for a conventional cab design. On the other hand, he doesn't want something monsterous so he'll be sticking to the smallest of the medium duty (class 4 i think?) trucks. It'll be his dedicated work vehicle, and he'll have a car for personal and paper business use. And he has a huge garage to park the truck in.

Looking into it though, it seems though because it's a lot of highway driving, the big >6 liter diesels are a bit of an overkill for his uses. The truck will be loaded occasionaly to max when we have a couple 600foot 2inch cable reels in it, but will never have to pull a trailer of any sort. I think he's looking for something more on the economical side while still maintaining decent comfort on the highway; he/we drive all around the northeast, meaning he'll be racking up the miles right quick, so i think he'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of power for economy.

In the end its his decision really, and i think it's going to be between the F450, the C4500 and the 165. Though he doesn't know the 165 is an option yet; i didn't know much about Hino before today either.

[Moppie]

The US really does have some interesting differences.

All the Hino's Iv known have been very, very, very reliable, and very cost efficient to run.
But, they are sort of a base model truck here, very capable of doing their job, but lacking in little driver extras, like electric windows, A/C, fully carpeted and lined cab, etc. All things that if you spend 8-10 hours a day a truck make that little bit more comfy.
Clearly the US spec trucks are different. However, I can attest that their drive lines are very strong, and the new models all use a new, much nice friendly gear box. Its very car like.


I would be very interested in the Isuzu models you get over there, as Curtis mentioned the NPR range was very popular.
Again, well proven and very reliable, but also not much fun on a long journey.
However, they have just released a whole new lune up of completely redesigned models, and they have done a lot of work on the Cab, making them much more comfortable.
If the new line up is the same or similar, to whats available in the states then its definitely worth a look.


That said, like anything, the best way to find the right one, is to have a look yourself, and drive them.
Iv driven plenty of the "little" 4cylinder diesels though, and they are actualy very capable little engines. Don't let the number of cylinders fool you, 5L is still 5L, its a lot of motor, especialy when turbo charged.

If I was doing the shopping, knowing that the truck was going to be used for work only, and I had to pay the fuel bills, I would stay away from the big Yank V8s. Quite simply the extra power isn't worth the extra cost.
Just make sure that if your doing a lot of highway driving you talk your boss into the Turbo 4cyl, or one thats slightly more powerful than you think you might need.
A truck hats working flat out all the time because its underpowered will actually use more fuel, than one that is slightly over powered and doesn't have to work as hard.


Do you get FUSO's in the States still as well?
We just got a couple of new Canters at work, and they are much, much nicer trucks than the old models.

[curtis73]

One can expect 20+ mpg from a big powerful American V8 diesel on the highway. The only NPR I had was older with the previous generation diesel 4 banger and it only got 12-15 mpg... but it was as cube van so it was aerodynamically challenged.

Steel... look into the lower powered powerstroke. I forget what its rated at, but its something like 265 hp in the medium duty trucks and cargo vans. I don't know if you can get it tuned like that in an F450, but it might save you a little on fuel.

[Steel]

we do get mitsubishi fuso's, but the body that my boss wants isnt offered for those (unless they have a chassis that's similar enough to the W-series that it will still fit) Again though, all the fuso's are flat nosers which i think he'll shy away from.

It seems like the big american diesels average around 18-20mpg, but i'm having a hard time finding numbers for the 'smaller' import 4 and 6 cylinder diesels.

Now lets talk transmissions. It seems to me that once you start getting heavy, manual transmissions are best. Better efficiency, lower operating cost, more power. It seems to me that the automatics are just expensive heat generators, and since we'll be doing a lot of low speed high grade driving, I dont see the point in wasting fuel to overheat the transmission fluid. But, i'm not sure he's so convinced that auto transmissions are not the way to go. How finicky are the manual transmissions in these medium duty trucks? Are they expected to last as long as the engines (save for clutch replacement)? IS the clutch heavy enough that it gets tiresome to drive after a while?

[Moppie]

Usually the boxes will out last the engines, and the clutches can easily do several hundred thousand km's if they are used properly.

There are also huge advantages in having more than 3 gears, and a direct driveline also means less power loss to the wheels.
All the medium duty 4cyl Fuso's, Hino's and Isuzu's sold here have a 5 speed gear box. It gives you a very low speed crawler gear for 1st, that you only really use when the truck is fully loaded, and then 4 good gears for regular driving. You do all your starts in 2nd, acceleration and really steep hill climbing in 3rd, low speed driving in 4th, and high speed driving in 5th.
The slightly bigger 6cyl models usually have a 6sp, which just gives you an extra over driven gear to make high speed driving more efficient and quieter.

[curtis73]

I prefer the manual. If its a fleet vehicle it makes sense to suck up the cost of the automatic for the fact that not all of your employees will know how to drive a stick.

But you're right... given the questionable reliability of all the American transmissions installed behind those high-torque V8 diesels, the manual seems the way to go. Of the big three, I think the Allison 5 and 6 speed autos have the best POTENTIAL, but like most automatics they are pretty wimpy in stock form. Aftermarket rebuilds would prove ultimately reliable and I've seen them go 400k or more with no issues behind a 250-hp Dmax in a 4500 chassis cab. Unfortunately, that was on its third engine We had trouble with Duramaxes

In the case of the four-bangers, they are a lower output engine, smaller RPM range, and typically come with automatics handed down from the big boys. An industrial Allison 5-speed that hasn't been softened up by GM's bean counters behind a 4-banger would probably last longer than Moses.

[KiwiBacon]

Between Hino and Isuzu I don't believe you can make a bad choice. Provided of course you've done your homework and are looking at the appropriate models.

Hino is the truck arm of Toyota. Enough said really. The smaller toyota diesels (3l and under) have been having head issues but that's not what you're looking at.

I have some experience with the older Isuzu NPR trucks. Maintenance is easy and at decent intervals. Engine and gearbox life is excellent.
My 4x4 has an isuzu NPR engine and gearbox. I just bought a different gearbox for it (second hand from a different NPR with a different gear spread) and with 260,000km on it the gearbox is still tight, quiet and leak free.

The NPR diesel engines will do 500,000km without problems if looked after.
At that point a rebuild is quick and cheap, giving you another 500,000km.

Fuel use depends on weight, aerodynamics and gearing.
The isuzu engines have lowest fuel consumption at around 2000rpm, but some axle/tyre combinations have them doing over 3k rpm at highway speeds. If you aren't pushing a big box body then you can gear them up and save plenty.