will American cars get better??

[emanunet]

with cars around the world getting better and better every year, rurmor has it that American cars might actually start to get better aswell, i.e - better built, better fuel ecconomy, might actually go around bends and last longer. what do you think? will the US realize that cars are not just a disposable item that you need to throw away after 2 monthes? will the American car industry be able to match the European/Japanese market? will it be possible that not only 1 in 10 cars we test here in Europe from American brand be worth the money?
what do you say, is the American car industry starting to build real cars?

[KiwiBacon]

There're two things the US car makers need to sort out IMO.
First thing is diesel engines, I suspect the solution to this problem will simply be imported from their partners in Europe and Asia.
Second thing is small cars, but again I see imports and badge engineering being the winners there.

[J-Ri]

IMO, I would MUCH rather have an "American" (all parts of all cars made everywhere now) car. Asian (Japanese) cars such as Honda and Toyota are as good as American, but are nothing special. Asian (Korean) cars like Daewoo and Kia just plain suck. Initial cost would be the only benefit there. European cars seem to be the worst of all. They are no more reliable than American cars, and when they break just as often, parts are WAY too expensive (I know part of that is shipping them over here).

I have no idea what you mean by disposable (maybe a 'chips' vs. 'French fries' kindda difference?). I own 3 GM vehicles, and all have far out lasted similar vehicles imported from various other countries. '86 Silverado 170,000 miles, it runs PERFECT. I have replaced the water pump, master cylinder, and power steering pump (and of course wear items). EVERY other part is original. Find me an import that can compare to that!

I also have a '96 Beretta (159,000 miles) and a '98 Grand Am (190,000 miles). In 2 years NOTHING has gone wrong with the Beretta (and I was told only the A/C compressor had been replaced when I bought it). I have only owned the Grand Am for ~6 months, but have hardly driven it due to worn out tires and lots of snow. Both of them run great. I have seen Toyota engines that have worn out around 130,000 miles, both the 3L V6 and the 2.4L I4.

Do you have any sources to back up what you said or is this all just opinion?

[emanunet]

well, it is just based on the fact that here this is they way American cars are percived (in Europe). it is a fact that people here reject American cars without even trying them - you say that there is a reason to doubt that rejection? maybe. i work as an assistant mechanic (i have only been in the business for 2 years) in a small garage but i have seen a great deal of ppl complaining about the running costs and built qualities of American cars much more than i have seen complaints about European/Asian cars.
i hear and read ALL the time about just how bad american cars can get, and from that i have come to realiza that there is something wrong with them. i mean, you can buy an american car here - even something as crazy as a Vette/Viper - for the price you pay for a midsized BMW - around 30-70K GBP (remember that you have to import it yourself most of the time, which almost doubles the cost, meaning it's original price is ranged between 20-40K GBP) - that must mean something, dosen't it?? there must be a reason that American built cars are SO cheap, even ones with 450+ bhp!
i know that you cannot possibly genralize all American cars as bad cars, but somce you hear all the time just how truly bad they are - what reason do you have to think otherwise??

when i was in the states two years ago,i hired with a friend 3 different cars: a PT cruiser, Pontiak GTO and a Dodge Neon. now, these three cars were appaling to drive, thier build quality did not even come near the one of even a cheap European hatchback and thier fuel economy was really a dissaster (around 10mpg from the GTO on a freeway!). i admit, it was nice to cruise at 70-100 mph with a meaty V8 under the bonnet, but everything elsed made the whole experience so bad that i just came to hate American rides.

but if you think that this is not the case, then please, enlighten me. this is exactly why i posted this thread.
EA

[KiwiBacon]

Originally Posted by emanunet

when i was in the states two years ago,i hired with a friend 3 different cars: a PT cruiser, Pontiak GTO and a Dodge Neon. now, these three cars were appaling to drive, thier build quality did not even come near the one of even a cheap European hatchback and thier fuel economy was really a dissaster (around 10mpg from the GTO on a freeway!). i admit, it was nice to cruise at 70-100 mph with a meaty V8 under the bonnet, but everything elsed made the whole experience so bad that i just came to hate American rides.

but if you think that this is not the case, then please, enlighten me. this is exactly why i posted this thread.
EA

That PT Cruiser and the Neon are basically the same vehicle. The Pontiac GTO is actually an Australian Car (Holden Monaro). But Australia is the closest thing to American outside the US anyway.

[curtis73]

J-ri, he's probably referring to literally millions of independent studies which have shown for 30 years that japanese cars are on the average much more reliable than any car America ever made. That is why when American companies needed small reliable cars in the late 70s and early 80s, they teamed up with Japanese companies. Chevy started the Geo line by buying cars from Toyota, Isuzu, and Suzuki. Dodge teamed up with Mitsubishi and bought everything from sports cars to trucks to rebadge. Ford has long been in bed with Mazda and most of their small cars are Mazda designs, not Ford. I buy American cars because I like the styling and price. I bought my wife a 97 Toyota because I knew it would last longer. 120k without any repairs except maintenance. Compare that to my 96 Chevy Impala SS that has a cracked exhaust manifold, is on its third water pump, second distributor, fourth power steering pump, the tranny slips pretty badly, the stock radio died and almost set fire to my car, and the cruise control doesn't work, all in the same 120k miles.

I had a BMW that went 300k without ever opening the engine, a Toyota that made 380k with a new head, and a mercedes diesel that made 280k without ever doing anything... and that was 10 years ago and I suspect its still on the road with over 400k.

American cars sucked for LONG time. They are now starting to get the picture and are already becoming much more reliable. The Chevy Malibu just received some award for being the most reliable car in its class, so its starting to happen.

[Moppie]

Chrysler has been trying to enter overseas markets for about 40 odd years at least now. And every time they get knocked back by local brands.
Every time.
They have even produced some nice cars in that time, and at one point were even badge engineering cars from england and Australia. It still didn't work.

But then you look at the new Chrysler's being sold out side the US and you wonder why they even bother.
They are big, ugly, and use very out dated technology. Live axles, single cam engines or 1 or 2 generation old Mercedes platforms that have passed their sell by date. They handle like bags of jelly and the performance might have been considered average 10 years ago.
They sell in small numbers to fanatics and people who think being an "American" (as in the ideal from the movies) is cool.
Daewo's and Kia's are more popular and sell in much larger numbers.


Small note, Honda and Toyota both make a large range of American only cars and light trucks.
These are designed in the US, built in the US, and only sold in North America.
They are MORE American that most "American" cars.

Which is interesting, especially the bit about the are sold ONLY in North America. e.g. Tundra, Tacoma, US Civic, Element, Ridgeline. (some of these actually get EXPORTED to Japan. the old Civic coupe, and Accord Wagon for example).

Does this perhaps indicate that the problem is not with the American Car Makers, but with the American Market.
After all in the past American manufacturers have done some very clever things, and overseas they have Produced some very good cars, the Ford Mondeo for example.

Is it possible that either the Market simple demands big, stupid cars, or, is it so blind to what the rest of the world is getting, its happy with big, stupid cars?

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Does this perhaps indicate that the problem is not with the American Car Makers, but with the American Market.
After all in the past American manufacturers have done some very clever things, and overseas they have Produced some very good cars, the Ford Mondeo for example.

Is it possible that either the Market simple demands big, stupid cars, or, is it so blind to what the rest of the world is getting, its happy with big, stupid cars?

Amen, kudos, and otherwise, hell yes.

As gas prices continue to increase at an epic rate, people still keep buying Escalades with 26" wheels. Its market and the consumer perception.

[72chevelleOhio]

Don't forget about the "people" curve....When something is good, nobody thinks about it. When something is bad, "The whole world has to know what a piece of junk it is"......

[emanunet]

Originally Posted by Moppie

Does this perhaps indicate that the problem is not with the American Car Makers, but with the American Market.
After all in the past American manufacturers have done some very clever things, and overseas they have Produced some very good cars, the Ford Mondeo for example.

Moppie, i think that is exactly the point. American consumers cant be bothered about the quality of thier cars. they are living in a society that everything needs to be big and cheap (food, clothes, cars, houses etc.). i do believe that American car companies can manufactur a well built car (heck, i owned a 2000 focus - perhaps the best car i ever owned) it is just that the American ppl simply dont see quality as mandatory. they are still living in thier bubble of "yeah-ill-take-the-1$-superzise-meal" lifestyle and that implicates on everything that they consume. Ford here in Europe is producing cars that can out-score top of the line Bimmers, yet they simply dont see it as something that ppl in thier home country would want.

i mean, just look at America's motor sport, what is thier most viewed car race?? Nascar. no disrespect for Nascar, but still, when u look at that compared to F1, you think that america is still in the middle of the stone age(!).

but i blame the car companies more than i blame the American ppl themeselves; they (car companies) are the ones that can make the change, they can produce better vehicles for the American market but they simply dont. if they would have started to show the American ppl just how a car these days could be built they (American public) might actually understand just how ridicules what they drive is!

but then, it all comes to money, dosn't it? i assume these kind of cars would be much more expensive to produce and also to buy and both sides woudnt want that (of course....). second of all, oil companies will simply not allow (in whichever way they can) manufaturing cars which are more efficient in a massive scale (yes, you have cars like the Prius, but thier number is insignifcant compared to the number of huge SUV's trucks and "muscle cars").

so what can be done?? i guess America in condemned to live like ignorants in every way that has anything to do with consumerism, including cars.
maybe the change should come from within? maybe the American public would wake up one day? who knows...

till then, though, American cars (including the ones pruduced by foriegn companies for the American market) will stay in my mind as they worst cars you can probably buy today.
EA

[curtis73]

Well, look at the government we settle for all the time. Huge money, terrible policy. Every election we just vote for the lesser of two evils and then complain for 4 years.

[emanunet]

thats a good way to put it.

[J-Ri]

I think a huge part of the reason American cars are so "terrible" is that often times the owner doesn't maintain them. A customer who comes in with a Toyota/Honda/Mazda, etc. wants us to do everything the owners manual says, every time it says it. A lot of the GM/Ford/Chrysler owners will not fix something until it breaks. If the transmission fluid is black and smells like burnt toast, they let it go until the transmission goes out. Same thing with engine oil, I've seen hundreds of cars that are 5,000 miles past the oil change. I've seen several that are 10,000 miles or more over. No wonder things break.

I completely agree with what was said about Americans wanting the biggest and cheapest (some of them). However, calling all of us ignorant when you think everyone is like that makes you seem a bit ignorant yourself. Sure, there are people who buy a $50,000 (or more) truck and have never had anything in the back and never pulled a trailer and only drive on roads. They're idiots, your right. (I should point out that the truck in my avitar has been driven less than 1,000 miles in the past year, so don't bring that up) Not all Americans are like that. Do you put malt vinegar on everything you eat, don't have two teeth that are parallel, and think that crossdressing is the absolute funniest comedy there is? Saying all Americans are alike is as rediculous as that.

[emanunet]

when i say "Americans", u know i mean the majority and not everyone. i am sure you understand that i dont think that EVERY single american is ignorant or drives a ridicules car. but, the vast majority does. and that's a fact. i am sorry if you took it personally (i am sure the ppl it dosnt concern know it).

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by J-Ri

I think a huge part of the reason American cars are so "terrible" is that often times the owner doesn't maintain them. A customer who comes in with a Toyota/Honda/Mazda, etc. wants us to do everything the owners manual says, every time it says it. A lot of the GM/Ford/Chrysler owners will not fix something until it breaks. If the transmission fluid is black and smells like burnt toast, they let it go until the transmission goes out. Same thing with engine oil, I've seen hundreds of cars that are 5,000 miles past the oil change. I've seen several that are 10,000 miles or more over. No wonder things break.

while I agree with the maintenance things, I don't think Toyota owners are a high pride-of-ownership crowd. Many of their smaller economy/commuter vehicles are owned by people who get in, turn the key, and push the pedal. I think its a credit to Toyota that they last the way they do given the terrible maintenance I see on most of what I work on.

Contrast that with the 30 or more American vehicles I've owned and meticulously maintained and parts still fail miserably. I would much rather have a classic American car that fails because I can replace a $55 AC compressor in 15 minutes. If the AC compressor goes on my wife's Tercel, its $235 wholesale and requires some major disassembly to get to it from the bottom of the car. Its preference in many cases. Americans on the average have shown that they want the most for the least amount of money; cars, supersize fast food, electronics. We are a pretty decadent society.