96 Windstar 3.8, 12 codes no start
tebo77
12-01-2009, 05:54 PM
:banghead:
My Windstar has been running rough the past few weeks and today it stalled and will not start up again. I read the codes and came up with 12:
p1537
p0133
p0141
p0156
p0161
p0401
p1130
p1131
p0302
p0303
p0171
p0174
I know most of these are O2 sensors, which were all replaced around the same time and have probably about 25,000 miles on them. So my first question is, is that even possible?? I could see them all going around the same time since they're all the same age, but they are kinda young.
With 2 misfires right next to each other, and a good tune-up done recently, could that be the coil pack? What is the one(s) not letting it run at all and where should I start? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
My Windstar has been running rough the past few weeks and today it stalled and will not start up again. I read the codes and came up with 12:
p1537
p0133
p0141
p0156
p0161
p0401
p1130
p1131
p0302
p0303
p0171
p0174
I know most of these are O2 sensors, which were all replaced around the same time and have probably about 25,000 miles on them. So my first question is, is that even possible?? I could see them all going around the same time since they're all the same age, but they are kinda young.
With 2 misfires right next to each other, and a good tune-up done recently, could that be the coil pack? What is the one(s) not letting it run at all and where should I start? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
wiswind
12-01-2009, 08:12 PM
WOW! that is a lot of codes.
I am thinking that clearing the codes.......and trying again might be something to try.....as you have written down what codes you have.
The FIRST thing that I would check into is the condition of the battery......and the connections (at battery terminals as well as the connections down next to the starter).
The reason for this is that a battery or connection that is failing to deliver the proper voltage, and do it under a load, is going to cause all kinds of electrical issues.
YES, it is possible for the motor to crank (turn over) just fine and have the battery not deliver quite enough voltage to correctly operate the relays.....and give incorrect readings from the various sensors.
The next thing that I would try is verification that the fuel pump is working.
Can you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds when you first turn the key to the "ON" position.....but do not turn all the way to "START"?
Is the fuel pressure at the fuel rail as checked at the test point?
You can use a rag to catch the fuel....and press the center pin on the test point at the center of the front fuel rail.
If the fuel pump is not working......it is protected by fuse "N" in the engine compartment fuse / relay box......it is 20 amp.
Before jumping to change the fuel pump....verify that power is getting all the way back to the fuel pump.
The inertia shut off switch is located in the back....in the compartment with the jack.
The fuel pump relay is located inside the Constant Control Relay Module (CCRM) which is located in front of the battery......you can see it on the radiator support....and there is a big multi-wire connecto to it that you can see from under the car.
I have pictures of it posted in the pictures that the link in my signature takes you to.
Do not forget the possibility of a clogged fuel filter.
That is something that is easy to forget....and the more restricted the filter is to the flow of fuel....the greater the work load on the fuel pump.
Another thing to check is the possiblility of a major vaccum leak......did some hose fall off? or some other cause of extra air getting into the system?
I am thinking this because I know how easy it is to bump a hose off when working under the hood.
Also, on my '96.....the PCV hose did deteriate on me......first I got a crack in the flexible elbow for the PCV line at the top of the upper intake manifold.....then the other part(s) got soft and were collapsing.
You can get a elbow by buying the "emission hose" in the "help" parts at AutoZone and other auto part stores.
I bought one that had 2 elbow bends....and cut it to fit.
In short.....I am trying to eliminate the obvious........correct voltage from battery (you can get it load tested if you can get the battery to a auto parts store),...as well as connections to deliver the voltage from the battery......fuel, air......spark.
Hopefully these checks will get you going down the path to the cause of the problem.
YES, it is possible for a coil pack to cause problems.....however.....I have not seen posts of one causing the vehicle to suddenly not start......and I don't want to see you throw parts at the problem ($$$) without some logic.
If you have access to a timing light (not so common now-a-days) to verify if you have spark, you might try that.
I am thinking that clearing the codes.......and trying again might be something to try.....as you have written down what codes you have.
The FIRST thing that I would check into is the condition of the battery......and the connections (at battery terminals as well as the connections down next to the starter).
The reason for this is that a battery or connection that is failing to deliver the proper voltage, and do it under a load, is going to cause all kinds of electrical issues.
YES, it is possible for the motor to crank (turn over) just fine and have the battery not deliver quite enough voltage to correctly operate the relays.....and give incorrect readings from the various sensors.
The next thing that I would try is verification that the fuel pump is working.
Can you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds when you first turn the key to the "ON" position.....but do not turn all the way to "START"?
Is the fuel pressure at the fuel rail as checked at the test point?
You can use a rag to catch the fuel....and press the center pin on the test point at the center of the front fuel rail.
If the fuel pump is not working......it is protected by fuse "N" in the engine compartment fuse / relay box......it is 20 amp.
Before jumping to change the fuel pump....verify that power is getting all the way back to the fuel pump.
The inertia shut off switch is located in the back....in the compartment with the jack.
The fuel pump relay is located inside the Constant Control Relay Module (CCRM) which is located in front of the battery......you can see it on the radiator support....and there is a big multi-wire connecto to it that you can see from under the car.
I have pictures of it posted in the pictures that the link in my signature takes you to.
Do not forget the possibility of a clogged fuel filter.
That is something that is easy to forget....and the more restricted the filter is to the flow of fuel....the greater the work load on the fuel pump.
Another thing to check is the possiblility of a major vaccum leak......did some hose fall off? or some other cause of extra air getting into the system?
I am thinking this because I know how easy it is to bump a hose off when working under the hood.
Also, on my '96.....the PCV hose did deteriate on me......first I got a crack in the flexible elbow for the PCV line at the top of the upper intake manifold.....then the other part(s) got soft and were collapsing.
You can get a elbow by buying the "emission hose" in the "help" parts at AutoZone and other auto part stores.
I bought one that had 2 elbow bends....and cut it to fit.
In short.....I am trying to eliminate the obvious........correct voltage from battery (you can get it load tested if you can get the battery to a auto parts store),...as well as connections to deliver the voltage from the battery......fuel, air......spark.
Hopefully these checks will get you going down the path to the cause of the problem.
YES, it is possible for a coil pack to cause problems.....however.....I have not seen posts of one causing the vehicle to suddenly not start......and I don't want to see you throw parts at the problem ($$$) without some logic.
If you have access to a timing light (not so common now-a-days) to verify if you have spark, you might try that.
tebo77
12-02-2009, 07:55 AM
Yes, I was suprised to get that many codes! I don't have a light but I can use a test plug to check for spark. The fuel pump is coming on. We can load test the battery also. If I clear the codes the scan tool will say "no codes" and I won't be able to drive it to get the light back on, so should I do that? One question I had was if the O2 sensor circuits are malfunctioning, how are they sending a lean code?? So the battery sending wrong codes is a good possibility. I sure did crank a LOT with no loss of power before calling a tow truck, but anything is possible. I will let you know any findings today, thanks so much!
wiswind
12-02-2009, 07:39 PM
As you have written down the codes....it should be alright to clear them.
It should not set many....most likely none until you succeed in getting the vehicle started....but my thinking is that when you do get it started, you will be starting with a clean slate....and you will know that any codes that may come up will be new ones.....after whatever you corrected to get the vehicle running.
It should not set many....most likely none until you succeed in getting the vehicle started....but my thinking is that when you do get it started, you will be starting with a clean slate....and you will know that any codes that may come up will be new ones.....after whatever you corrected to get the vehicle running.
tebo77
12-02-2009, 07:53 PM
I took your post printed out and went through the line. Everything checked out, so I took the intake off and the egr ports looked pretty good, one fuel injector looked kinda dirty so I cleaned them all while I was there. Tested the coil with ohmeter and tested power to coil. Everything good there. Put everything back together. If it has spark and fuel...I thought maybe it doesn't like the fuel it has, e.g. bad tank of gas. About a quarter tank, I put a can of Berryman's in and my 2 gallons of lawnmower gas from the can and cranked a few times, shut off and cranked again, finally primed and started! I have since shut it off a couple times and ran it for awhile...must have been the gas is all I could think, or my gauge is faulty and I was empty lol, but usually if the gauge doesn't work it reads all full or all empty. It was a VERY rough idle, but that may be still some junk fuel in there. With all the testing I had the battery disconnected anyway, so codes are cleared, and I will drive it around a bit tomorrow, fill up with some non-ethanol gas, and see if it smooths out and see what codes come back. Thank you so much for your help and I'll post what codes come back.
tebo77
12-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Ok...Stopped for gas at my cousin's garage and asked him what I should do next or if he could diagnose for me. His mechanics are very good but very expensive (nope, no deals for family). He said try the plugs, even though they are fairly new, and if that didn't work I could make an appointment. The Adv Auto store is 10 miles away, had codes by the time I got there, but only p1131, 1538, 1537. Bought the Autolite double plats, and changed them. Cylinder 3 plug was completely black, the rest all looked fine. Took my mother-in-law to get mail at her old address, 60 mile round trip, to run some more of the Berryman's through, and its still a very rough running engine and not the power it should have. The CEL started blinking during the trip and continued throughout, until I shut it off at our destination, then it ran a couple miles before blinking again. Now there are 5 codes, the 3 above and p0171 and p0303.
I pulled the wire back off cylinder 3 and tested it with a plug and it is firing...which I thought the blinking light means there's no spark there. So there is fire and there is gas, what could be causing the misfire? For the O2 codes could that be the O2 sensor? The other 2 codes are not as pressing, I did the vacuum check on another thread and it is one of the actuators. I can wire it closed I learned. I am more concerned with how rough it is running.
I pulled the wire back off cylinder 3 and tested it with a plug and it is firing...which I thought the blinking light means there's no spark there. So there is fire and there is gas, what could be causing the misfire? For the O2 codes could that be the O2 sensor? The other 2 codes are not as pressing, I did the vacuum check on another thread and it is one of the actuators. I can wire it closed I learned. I am more concerned with how rough it is running.
wiswind
12-03-2009, 10:13 PM
I am wondering if the IMRC codes are caused by the common cause.....a defective diaphram on one of the IMRC actuators.....which could be bad enough to be a vaccum leak.
You might try plugging that line and see if it helps.
I remember a post about the aftermarket actuators not working correctly......so I would stick with FORD for them......but try to order online from Y2KFORD as they discount.....unless you have a local dealership that discounts.
They are EXPENSIVE.
If you can wire them closed (they are OPEN when the motor is not running.....it takes vaccum to pull them closed), that would help your problem.....although I do not know that it will solve it.
The open postion is intened for high RPM operation ONLY (above 2900rpm on the '96).
But I do not recommend reving the motor to test operation......
Again.....they are OPEN when the motor is not running, and when you start the motor....they should close......so that is all you need for testing them.
As you have done the procedure to remove and finger over vaccum line for each actuator at a time to verify which actuator is bad, you already know this, but I wanted to mention it for others, who may read this thread.
The blinking CEL is going to happen for a misfire code, which the P0303 will cause.
It could be caused by no spark or lack of fuel.
The lack of fuel could be dirty fuel injector(s) or vaccum leak.
The PCM does not know what the cause of the misfire is.....so the CEL is blinking because if it is caused by no spark...then you would be putting raw fuel into the exhaust....which can damage the catalytic converter.
With the lean code.....and on the same bank as the misfire, I tend to think that it is caused by lack of fuel or vaccum leak.
Your verification of spark confirms this as well.
You might try plugging that line and see if it helps.
I remember a post about the aftermarket actuators not working correctly......so I would stick with FORD for them......but try to order online from Y2KFORD as they discount.....unless you have a local dealership that discounts.
They are EXPENSIVE.
If you can wire them closed (they are OPEN when the motor is not running.....it takes vaccum to pull them closed), that would help your problem.....although I do not know that it will solve it.
The open postion is intened for high RPM operation ONLY (above 2900rpm on the '96).
But I do not recommend reving the motor to test operation......
Again.....they are OPEN when the motor is not running, and when you start the motor....they should close......so that is all you need for testing them.
As you have done the procedure to remove and finger over vaccum line for each actuator at a time to verify which actuator is bad, you already know this, but I wanted to mention it for others, who may read this thread.
The blinking CEL is going to happen for a misfire code, which the P0303 will cause.
It could be caused by no spark or lack of fuel.
The lack of fuel could be dirty fuel injector(s) or vaccum leak.
The PCM does not know what the cause of the misfire is.....so the CEL is blinking because if it is caused by no spark...then you would be putting raw fuel into the exhaust....which can damage the catalytic converter.
With the lean code.....and on the same bank as the misfire, I tend to think that it is caused by lack of fuel or vaccum leak.
Your verification of spark confirms this as well.
tebo77
12-04-2009, 06:52 AM
If I close off that vacuum line, then it may help then. It is also the bank one actuator that is bad, not sure if that matters though since it makes both malfunction. Is there any way to see if that cylinder is getting fuel? Since I had the intake off, I cleaned all the injectors so if cyl 3 one is not working could I test it for power? I don't know what an injector does if it fails, but I can say that I know it is clean. IF I have to, I could swap some injectors around, though taking off the intake again is a pain, to see if the misfire follows the injector. I will read up in the Chilton's for fuel injector testing today.
If this all checks out I will probably have my cousin do a compression check on cyl 3, as any other leak would probably be a gasket. I have said the "C" word twice this week (I'm buying a Chevy) but I really like my Windstar.
If this all checks out I will probably have my cousin do a compression check on cyl 3, as any other leak would probably be a gasket. I have said the "C" word twice this week (I'm buying a Chevy) but I really like my Windstar.
tebo77
12-04-2009, 10:26 AM
No testing of the fuel injector was needed. Cylinder 3 injector was not plugged in. I did not have the cowl off when I removed the intake, I like to save time and just do the "squeeze" back in. Apparently when I did this I knocked off the injector harness. Hmm. So after the cleaning it was probably fixed yesterday, had I been more careful.
Today I removed the cowl in case I had to test the wiring, wanted it to be able to be started.
I haven't driven it yet but it seems to be running smoothly now. I also did the quick fix on the IMRC runners. Do they sell harnesses for the fuel injectors anywhere? I would hate to put the cowl back on with one clip broke and able to be bumped off again. I can leave the cowl off for a day or two unless we have rain in the forecast. Thanks.
Today I removed the cowl in case I had to test the wiring, wanted it to be able to be started.
I haven't driven it yet but it seems to be running smoothly now. I also did the quick fix on the IMRC runners. Do they sell harnesses for the fuel injectors anywhere? I would hate to put the cowl back on with one clip broke and able to be bumped off again. I can leave the cowl off for a day or two unless we have rain in the forecast. Thanks.
tebo77
12-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Took it for a drive. Running much better, but after 25 miles:
p0133
p0141
p0161
p0156
p0171
:disappoin
Maybe all 12 were legit.
p0133
p0141
p0161
p0156
p0171
:disappoin
Maybe all 12 were legit.
wiswind
12-05-2009, 10:25 AM
That P0133 is looking like you might have a actual sensor problem....although this is a rare code.
However.....it is what I will describe as a "soft" code.....the switching speed is slow.....out of specification, as opposed to a solid failure.....like the downstream sensor codes....which could be wiring.
The problem is......my personal preference is to replace the 2 upstream sensors as a pair.....to keep the vehicle with a matched set of oxygen sensors.
The point being.....to have both upstream sensors having a MATCHED set of switching charactoristics......instead of 1 being slower than the other.
The other thing that I prefer, is to use GENUINE Motorcraft oxygen sensors for the upstream sensors.
I think that they may be manufactured by Bosch......however, they are manufactured to FORD Motorcraft specifications.
I know that this costs more money....but the upstream sensors are used for critical adjustments to operating parameters.....like air / fuel ratio.
You could recover the extra cost in fuel savings.
I bought my Motorcraft oxygen sensors from Rockauto, a online auto part store.
In my case....I really did not see any gain in replacing the upstream sensors.......but I had no codes before hand.
Mine had signs of coolant on them from my leaking lower intake manifold gasket, and about 170K miles on them.
It was also a bit of an experiment to see if I would see any gain from replacing them......and I did not...which made me believe that the advice to replace them based upon age or mileage is not applicable to the windstar.....maybe some other brands, or applications....but I feel that my original ones were just fine, in spite of the age/mileage/coolant exposure.
I am not so big on having the downstream sensors replaced as a pair or having to stay with the Motorcraft brand.....although it would not harm anything....I just don't know that it is worth the expense.
The downstream sensors.....by the nature of the location and application, are switching at a much slower speed, and they are not used by the PCM to make any adjustments to engine performance charactoristics.....they ONLY serve to tell the PCM if the catalytic converters are working.
It seems like you are getting HARD failures with the downstream sensors....and I would give them a very good look from the underside and carefully inspect the wire harness.
Make sure that it has not fallen down against hot exhaust pipes, etc.
Also, one at a time.....unplug each downstream sensor and inspect the contacts inside the plugs.....and reconnect.
The good news is that you are making progress, the motor seems to be running well.
It is also good to be running the Berryman's through, as it is cleaning the fuel injectors.
I like to do it 3 or 4 times a year....but I drive mine a lot.
I had the issues come up every few years until I started running the Berryman's a few times a year.....I can tell a very slight improvement when I do so....and it keeps the problem from coming up and getting my blood pressure up.
The P0171 may be from a vaccum leak....or a injector(s) that may need a little more internal cleaning....with will happen with the rest of the tank of fuel.....or it could be from the PCM trying to ballance out the motor with a bad input from the bank 1 (rear bank) upstream oxygen sensor.
The P0171 and P0133 are the same bank and sensor....and the P0133 is for sure a sensor code.
I am reluctant to have you throw 4 sensors at the vehicle due to the cost.....and think that working with the upstream sensor....which is critical to operation....inspecting the wiring and connectors for the downstream sensors.....then see what happens might be the way to go.
Also....I am nervous about that sensor that is mounted into the rear of the catalytic converter......I don't want to see you have the issue that I did....as that will certainly add to the frustration and expense.
However.....it is what I will describe as a "soft" code.....the switching speed is slow.....out of specification, as opposed to a solid failure.....like the downstream sensor codes....which could be wiring.
The problem is......my personal preference is to replace the 2 upstream sensors as a pair.....to keep the vehicle with a matched set of oxygen sensors.
The point being.....to have both upstream sensors having a MATCHED set of switching charactoristics......instead of 1 being slower than the other.
The other thing that I prefer, is to use GENUINE Motorcraft oxygen sensors for the upstream sensors.
I think that they may be manufactured by Bosch......however, they are manufactured to FORD Motorcraft specifications.
I know that this costs more money....but the upstream sensors are used for critical adjustments to operating parameters.....like air / fuel ratio.
You could recover the extra cost in fuel savings.
I bought my Motorcraft oxygen sensors from Rockauto, a online auto part store.
In my case....I really did not see any gain in replacing the upstream sensors.......but I had no codes before hand.
Mine had signs of coolant on them from my leaking lower intake manifold gasket, and about 170K miles on them.
It was also a bit of an experiment to see if I would see any gain from replacing them......and I did not...which made me believe that the advice to replace them based upon age or mileage is not applicable to the windstar.....maybe some other brands, or applications....but I feel that my original ones were just fine, in spite of the age/mileage/coolant exposure.
I am not so big on having the downstream sensors replaced as a pair or having to stay with the Motorcraft brand.....although it would not harm anything....I just don't know that it is worth the expense.
The downstream sensors.....by the nature of the location and application, are switching at a much slower speed, and they are not used by the PCM to make any adjustments to engine performance charactoristics.....they ONLY serve to tell the PCM if the catalytic converters are working.
It seems like you are getting HARD failures with the downstream sensors....and I would give them a very good look from the underside and carefully inspect the wire harness.
Make sure that it has not fallen down against hot exhaust pipes, etc.
Also, one at a time.....unplug each downstream sensor and inspect the contacts inside the plugs.....and reconnect.
The good news is that you are making progress, the motor seems to be running well.
It is also good to be running the Berryman's through, as it is cleaning the fuel injectors.
I like to do it 3 or 4 times a year....but I drive mine a lot.
I had the issues come up every few years until I started running the Berryman's a few times a year.....I can tell a very slight improvement when I do so....and it keeps the problem from coming up and getting my blood pressure up.
The P0171 may be from a vaccum leak....or a injector(s) that may need a little more internal cleaning....with will happen with the rest of the tank of fuel.....or it could be from the PCM trying to ballance out the motor with a bad input from the bank 1 (rear bank) upstream oxygen sensor.
The P0171 and P0133 are the same bank and sensor....and the P0133 is for sure a sensor code.
I am reluctant to have you throw 4 sensors at the vehicle due to the cost.....and think that working with the upstream sensor....which is critical to operation....inspecting the wiring and connectors for the downstream sensors.....then see what happens might be the way to go.
Also....I am nervous about that sensor that is mounted into the rear of the catalytic converter......I don't want to see you have the issue that I did....as that will certainly add to the frustration and expense.
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