Torque Converter Groove

AAMCO told me my pump seal blew because there is a groove in the Torque Converter.

Is this a common problem or are they just trying to get more money from me?

Are TCs for 98 Windstar 3.8Ls hared t find?

Is it difficult to install?

I didn't have the money for them to put in a new one anyway, they said I could drive it but it would probably blow a seal again.

How likely is this to happen?

AAMCO told me my pump seal blew because there is a groove in the Torque Converter.

Is this a common problem or are they just trying to get more money from me?

Are TCs for 98 Windstar 3.8Ls hared t find?

Is it difficult to install?

I didn't have the money for them to put in a new one anyway, they said I could drive it but it would probably blow a seal again.

How likely is this to happen?

Yes, it's a common problem. Other members had the same problem with their 98 and 2003.

The trans codes are not difficult to find, but require a special scan tool, not a cheap one.

Unfortunately, the torque converter is difficult to install. I don't think another seal will broke, but it may lead to a transmission failure, because the trans requires a lot of fluid to cool down and to reduces the friction inside.

Do you have a fluid leak?

Read this post, it can help you: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=951199

It doesn't leak now.

The funny thing to me is, after the initial leak, I filled it back up and drove it about thirty miles before it got so bad it wouldn't hold fluid. And it shifted normally.

Now that AMMCO has resealed it, I must rev the engine up and let of the gas to get it to shift into 2nd and OD.

I suspect they sabotaged my van.

No, I don't think they sabotage your van. When the leak is sealed, there's is more hydraulic pressure inside the transmission pump. You need to rev up to circulate the high pressure fluid into the trans, then rev down, so it doesn't slip when gears change.

I think they don't sealed correctly, I mean there's too much pressure, the fluid stagnates into the trans. They put to much seal into the pump.

If you remove the seal back, it'll shift normally during certain times, but the trans will overheat. And also it'll not able to shift at all.

Could it be possible they forgot to reconnect something, like a speed sensor?

No, if the speed sensor is disconnected, you'll not have speed display in your dashboard.
When you shift from 1st to 2nd manually, does-it act the same way? Or you can start in 2nd.

No, if the speed sensor is disconnected, you'll not have speed display in your dashboard.

Isn't there a Vehicle Speed Sensor and a Transmission Speed Sensor?

When you shift from 1st to 2nd manually, does-it act the same way? Or you can start in 2nd.

I've only driven it home from the shop but it will start in second. I drove it most of the way home in 2nd.

No, the Vehicle Speed Sensor is incorporate into the transmission. It measures the speed of the output shaft X a gear set factor, then send it to the PCM who calculate the speed of the car by using the final drive ratio and the tire circumference data.

The other speed sensor is the ABS speed sensor. It's used only to detect when a wheel lock to activate the ABS.

OK, a TC is $160 at Napa. I may try to do this myself.

Any tips?

Seriously, I don't recommand you to install it yourself if you never did it. It's not that easy.
Why you don't ask a mechanic to do it for you? Not necessary AAMCO, but another mechanic.

If I had the money to pay a mechanic I wouldn't be here.

I know, garage are expensive.
But there's a lot of self-employee mechanics that will be happy to do it for you for 25$/h.
They can come to your place and do the job. You can find them on kijiji/craiglist.

Believe me, I don't WANT to do it.

I've called AutoDoctoRX and requested an extimate to replace the TC...

Ok, you need to remove the transmission first, then remove the bolts that hold the converter to the flywheel.

Will I have to replace all the transmission seals I just paid $650 for?

No, I don't think they sabotage your van. When the leak is sealed, there's is more hydraulic pressure inside the transmission pump. You need to rev up to circulate the high pressure fluid into the trans, then rev down, so it doesn't slip when gears change.

I think they don't sealed correctly, I mean there's too much pressure, the fluid stagnates into the trans. They put to much seal into the pump.

If you remove the seal back, it'll shift normally during certain times, but the trans will overheat. And also it'll not able to shift at all.

Uh, Serge, this explanation sounds a little scrambled and does not make all that much sense, but I do agree. Aamco probalbly did not saboutage anything; it,s more likely they did not reassemble a component correctly.

Also, as Serge says, installing a new TC is a big job. But replacing the seal is almost as much work. If Aamco replace the seal, they could have very easily replaced the converter too. Why didn't they replace it then?

Also, it's rare for a converter neck to become grooved. But such grooved surfaces can often be repaired with a special slip-on collar, specifically designed for the application. I am not sure if such a collar is available for your TC but it's worth investigating..... it would be $5, not $160.

However, Imo if it's not leaking right now, leave it alone. Seals do have a great capacity for sealing on grooved surfaces. You might get years out of this repair.

Finally, if the shifting is now bad, take it back to Aamco and have them re-check the installation for loose /broken wires etc.

Uh, Serge, this explanation sounds a little scrambled and does not make all that much sense, but I do agree. Aamco probalbly did not saboutage anything; it,s more likely they did not reassemble a component correctly.

Also, as Serge says, installing a new TC is a big job. But replacing the seal is almost as much work. If Aamco replace the seal, they could have very easily replaced the converter too. Why didn't they replace it then?

They did want to, I simply didn't have the money. The reseal broke me. and they wanted another $250 for the TC.

Also, it's rare for a converter neck to become grooved. But such grooved surfaces can often be repaired with a special slip-on collar, specifically designed for the application. I am not sure if such a collar is available for your TC but it's worth investigating..... it would be $5, not $160.

Interesting...

However, Imo if it's not leaking right now, leave it alone. Seals do have a great capacity for sealing on grooved surfaces. You might get years out of this repair.

So I will NOT have to redo the seals? That's good news.

Finally, if the shifting is now bad, take it back to Aamco and have them re-check the installation for loose /broken wires etc.

Did you have any specific wiring in mind?

Will I have to replace all the transmission seals I just paid $650 for?

Yes, if you replace the torque converter, you will replace the seals too. So it's maybe not the best solution. Do what MagicRat suggest, try to repair the converter with a special slip-on collar, it should repair the groove.

I think the groove is the source of your problem: the converter disconnect from the transmission because there's not enough torque on it, caused by the lack of vacuum into the converter.

And where does the vacuum come from? Could this problem be from a disconnected vacuum tube?

No, the vacuum come from the turbine of the torque converter. The problem come from the groove.

So the "pump seal" is between the TC and the engine then...

So the "pump seal" is between the TC and the engine then...

...then when it spins, fluid is going at outside of the pump (caused by the centrifugal force), which create a vacuum that draws more fluid in at the center of the pump.

But if there's a groove in the converter, the fluid exit the converter to go somewhere else in the transmission, which cause the vacuum to be weaker, and disconnect the trans from the engine.

actually, the pump seal is between the pump (which is inside the converter) and the turbine (which is also in the converter).

The AutoDoctoRX guy just called me back, he said I should take it back to AAMCO and tell them I wasn't having a problem shifting before and that they should check the seals they put in.

BTW... he said he'd swap a tranny for $175.

They did want to, I simply didn't have the money. The reseal broke me. and they wanted another $250 for the TC.

I have replaced /swapped several TC's without having to change the seal. Often the seal lasts the life of the transmission.

Also, the seal itself costs only $5 to $10. The rest of the $650 was entirely labor to do the job.

If the transmission is not leaking now, leave it alone. The leaking you saw after the resealing may likely have been accumulated fluid dripping out of the TC housing. It's quite likely the new seal is doing its job perfectly, groove and all.

So, if it's not leaking, leave it alone. :) If you replace the TC now, you are wasting time and money to repair a problem that does not exist.

Also, replacing a TC is a big job and dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. Special procedures are required. For example, before you remove any bolts, you have to support the engine itself from above using a chain and a 4x4 inch wooden bar. You need a big floor jack and jackstands. You need to remove the wheels, unbolt the steering knuckles and remove the drive axles, which is best one with air tools and big sockets.
You must precisely support the transmission when you loosen it, or else it will fall and might injure you. If it does fall, you will need a couple of friends to lift it again to line it up properly. And there is the chance that you can inadvertently damage an expensive component...... all to fix a problem that does not exist at present..... and may not reoccur for a long time.

The shifting problem is not caused by your TC. Your transmission shifts are controlled by your computer, and rely on sensors (speed sensor, throttle position sensor etc) to shift properly. If a sensor is not hooked up properly or Aamco damaged a wire / electrical harness or left something disconnected, the shifting may be erratic.

Frankly, for the $650, Aamco has the responsibility to make it shift the way it did when you brought it to them... for free.

BTW... he said he'd swap a tranny for $175.

:eek7:

I have replaced /swapped several TC's without having to change the seal. Often the seal lasts the life of the transmission.

Also, the seal itself costs only $5 to $10. The rest of the $650 was entirely labor to do the job.

If the transmission is not leaking now, leave it alone. The leaking you saw after the resealing may likely have been accumulated fluid dripping out of the TC housing. It's quite likely the new seal is doing its job perfectly, groove and all.

So, if it's not leaking, leave it alone. :) If you replace the TC now, you are wasting time and money to repair a problem that does not exist.

Just to clarify: It hasn't leaked since AAMCO did the reseal, it's just not shifting right.

The shifting problem is not caused by your TC. Your transmission shifts are controlled by your computer, and rely on sensors (speed sensor, throttle position sensor etc) to shift properly. If a sensor is not hooked up properly or Aamco damaged a wire / electrical harness or left something disconnected, the shifting may be erratic.

Frankly, for the $650, Aamco has the responsibility to make it shift the way it did when you brought it to them... for free.

I know where all those sensors are, I'll look for anything that's obviously not connected.

Could a pinched seal cause a shifting problem too? That's what the AutoDoctoRX guy seamed to think.

Thanks again for all the advice, guys.

It depends, if you have trouble shifting to 2nd manually AND automatically and if you don't have engine hesitation problem, then it's not a problem with the sensors or the PCM. It's a problem with the torque converter or a pinched seal.

It will shift through all three gears if I rev it up then let off the gas.

The engine runs fine.

So it's a problem with the torque converter or a pinched seal.

So it's a problem with the torque converter or a pinched seal.

How do I tell the difference?

AAMCO told me I needed a new torque converter and I said no. If I ask them to check the seals they'll just say it was the TC and charge me $600.

I don't think it's a pinched seal, cause the problem was not there before they seal it.
What I think is: at the begining, the hydraulic pressure inside the trans where too high, the TC grooved AND a seal has broken, then the pressure lowered. When it was sealed, the pressure increase back, the the TC had beed destroyed, not the new seal.

So I think it's definitively the TC.

I thank you for your explainations and I understand increased pressure breaking a seal.

Can you explain where the grooves get made and how?

What I understan is, the engine flywheel turns the torque converter which has fluid in it. The moving fluid turns the shaft which drives the transmission. Is that correct?

I thank you for your explainations and I understand increased pressure breaking a seal.

Can you explain where the grooves get made and how?

What I understan is, the engine flywheel turns the torque converter which has fluid in it. The moving fluid turns the shaft which drives the transmission. Is that correct?

Yes, it's correct, except that you forget to mention what is inside the TC.
The engine turns a pump which pump the fluid. The fluid moves the turbine which is attached to the shaft of the transmission.

Also, the stator (inside the TC) redirect fluid returning from the turbine to the pump. Also, there's a one way clutch inside the stator.

So if there's too much torque inside the TC (when you stop the car), the clutch disconnect, so the stator stop returning the fluid to the pump and there's no more fluid pumping to the turbine.

So if you need to rev up more than usual, the fluid is not going to the turbine correctly. You need to pump more fluid, because you have an internal leak inside the TC.


About the groove, it can be made anywhere inside the TC. Maybe in the pump, in the turbine, in the TC cover... Your mechanics know cause he see the groove. I believe it's at the bottom of the TC.

Thanks

I'll take it to that mechanic I talked to and have him take it apart and see what's wrong.

I've got two more questions...

Would I damage anything to drive it about 30 miles at 45 mph or less to the mechanic?

and

How can I warm up the transmission in the driveway to check the fluid level?

No you'll not damage anything. At worst, you may damage the TC, but it needs to be replaced anyway, so...

After a 15 miles trip, transmission should be enough warm to check fluid.

I finally decided to bite the bullet and have a new TC professionally installed...

Hopefully they can nail down my 0171/0174 problem too.