99 Windstar ticking

I have the 3.8L with 125,000 miles on it and in the past week or so it is ticking loudly when first started. The ticking usually goes away within a mile of driving. When I listen with the hood up is sound like it is a lifter. Is there anyway to tell if it is the lifter and then is there something I can add to the oil that may free it up?
Thanks
Steve

Have you checked the level of your oil? Low oil can cause the lifters to tap.

Yes that was the first thing I checked, oil level was between the marks. I changed the oil this morning as well to see if it makes any difference which it didn't yet. I usually change the oil ever 3k.
By the way my son told me that Mom calls this her helicopter car because of the noise. That goes with the helicopter she sees on the dash when the check engine light comes on. lol

The 99's had a bit of problem with the plastic innards of the upper intake manifold coming loose. Do a search. For resolution, you can buy a new-design upper ... or you can apply a couple of RTV daubs ... I chose the RTV.

If the intake manifold were the problem would it go away? I have only heard the problem on startup. I would think the intake manifold would show up again at idle if that were the problems. Just my thoughts.

Mighty easy to remove the upper and take a look.

Okay I have finally gotten around to taking the intake off after the noise came back. I wanted to post a picture to make sure I have this right.
So the upper part of the manifold is 2 pieces with just 2 clips holding it in place which the picture is showing one of them.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/SlimJimRD/On%20line%20picture/DSC_0285.jpg

Do I RTV around the whole thing or a just a few places?

Thanks
Steve

Well, the "conventional" wisdow is separate the two pieces ...even if you have to break the clips. Do a bit of cleaning, and "RTV" the pieces back together ... 4 or 5 one-inch daubs should be OK.

If you want to do what I did (which is NEVER recommended! LOL!) ... separate the two pieces ... making sure the clips are removed. Do some cleaning, then "RTV" the inner "horn" piece ... not to the upper, but to the intake-spacer (the section the throttle control is attached to ...) RTV thoroughly, a complete sealing bead around each of the six "pipes". The intake manifold will work pretty much the same ... but the EGR jets will plug less often.

Okay I am going the conventional route this time, sorry 12ounce.
I have taken it apart, cleaned with brake cleaner and will be using the Ultra Black RTV sealer.
If I decide to go the 12ounce route in the future. Did you break the clips off before you sealed the inner horn piece to the lower? It kinda of looks like if you didn't then the clips could still engage and then cause problems trying to take the top part off later.
I did the isolator bolts etc about 2.5 years ago and the EGR jets look good yet is also why I am not going doing the horn to lower part right now.

Mostly I really hopes this stop the noise and it is not something worse.
Steve

Here is a picture of the RTV before I put the halves together.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/SlimJimRD/On%20line%20picture/DSC_0286.jpg

Now it is pouring rain so I got soaked trying to put everything in the van and out of the rain. No garage at my house just a nice hill to deal with. I hope it stops before it gets dark so I can put everything together.

I hope you were able to assemble things together before the RTV cured! The daubs in the photo look fine to me ... more than needed perhaps ... but should work very well. (So far, we only had rain at nighttime this weekend.)

Yes, I did break away the clips before sealing the horns to the spacer. I did a lot of fitting/measuring, using modeling clay for impressions, etc, etc ... before convincing myself it was the way to go. And this was not my first assembly ... the first time, maybe even the second time, around I went the "conventional" way.

I use brake cleaner quite a bit also ... works well, but dangerous stuff!!

Well major disasters here at the house.
Went downstairs while it rained and my 90 gallon reef aquarium is leaking from under the tank. Trying to find buckets and anything to hold 90 gallons of water, fish and coral was an experience I would rather not do again. Lucky my son did not go back to college yet so he helped me. I still do not know where it is leaking from.
After the tank is emptied and wondering what to do I figure go finish the van.
The rain had stopped but I open the hood and the intake had a bunch of water in it.
More water problems than I can deal with. Now I wish I had just put the undried upper manifold in place anyway. So I dried out the lower and the inside of the front right intake which had a lot of water.
I put it back together as it starts to rain and thought I will just start it before I go in the house. It will not start and acts like it has compression keeping it from turning over.
Did I just make it so the van needs to go to the junkyard?

What should I do next.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Steve

Yes, there's a good chance water made it's way down into the chambers. I wish you had posted before trying to crank ... but all may be OK.

I would remove all plugs and spin the engine a couple of times with plugs removed .... after that, reinstall plugs and have another go at it.

I will remove the plugs in the morning and hope for the best.
What should I have done in case I do something stupid like this again?
Thanks

Well.....hind sight is 20/20, best thing would have been to cover the intake with some plastic....to keep the water out until you could re-assemble it.
Next.....dry ALL the water out of the intake before cranking the motor.
If not certain that all the water is out......removal of the spark plugs and cranking is recommended......this is to get all the water out of the cylinders.

I hate to say it.....but you DO need to change your motor oil ASAP as you most likely got some water into the crankcase.
If you must start the motor before changing the oil......I would drain a few quarts out of the pan by removing the drain plug......and re-installing it.
This way, if you got a lot of water in......it will have settled to the bottom, as oil floats on water.....so draining a few quarts from the lowest point will get most of it.....although some will be trapped in pockets here and there...
You don't want the oil pump to draw water up the pickup tube......as it will cause you to have no lubrication.

The drain out of a couple of quarts (replacing with a fresh couple of quarts) would ONLY be to see if the motor starts.....you should STILL do a oil change.

As far as sealing the aquarium......I am sure that you know.....use different Sealant for the aquarium (aquarium sealant) than for the windstar (sensor safe).

What should I have done in case I do something stupid like this again?
Thanks

You may do something stupid again (we all do) ... but I'd bet you've learned not to do this one!

Keeping water out of places it's not supposed to be is very essential ... engines, houses, human bodies, etc, etc ...

But in the case of engines: If not much time has passed ... pull all plugs and spin the crank with the starter. If some time has passed and/or you suspect water in the crankcase ... I agree, the first thing is pull an oil sample to see if water is in the oil. If there is water in the oil, drain oil .... then pull plugs and spin crank ... then add new oil before attempting to start.

Took out the plugs and rotated the engine, put the van back together, changed the oil.
Was able to get the van started, I am so glad and thanks for again for all the help.

Do I need to be on the look out for anything after this incident?

Any hints on changing the oil as I hate to do it on the Windstar. I always wonder why cars did not have the drain plug on the bottom instead of the side. Now I know, gets all over your hand removing the plug. Then the filter is stuck up in place that is not easy to get it out. By the way I am doing this in the driveway and do not put it up in the air which might make it a little easier but I am on a incline.

My brother said I should put in some stop leak, that would seal up the aquarium. Don't think I will chance that.

Does the engine run well now? If it runs unevenly, I would be concerned that a piston rod was slightly bent ... a compression test would normally pick this up.

What about the ticking noise? Or have you forgotten that one? (I wouldn't blame you!)

It seems to run pretty well. Maybe a little miss under light acceleration but fine at idle and hard acceleration. Do I need to worry about that?
I also added some B-12 to the gas tank. I don't remember why I did that but planned on doing that before the water issues.
Now about that noise. It does not do that now. I am still not 100% convinced it is fixed but time will tell. The noise did come and go before. As bad as the noise was I thought that 12ounce was crazy when it was said "Mighty easy to remove the upper and take a look." There was no way that this racket could come from the plastic intake but I hope you are right.
For now I assume that the original problem has been taken care.

It seems to run pretty well. Maybe a little miss under light acceleration but fine at idle and hard acceleration. Do I need to worry about that?
.

Probably need to fix it before you will feel good about the car, but likely not a bent rod ... still a compression test would be nice. A little miss can be so many things ... sensors, plugs, ig pack, cables, etc, etc.

I would do my "code cheat" ... you've read it perhaps: Pull and plug the control vac hose going to the EGR valve. When you finally get a code, go to AutoZone and get codes read. Do you get any codes not related to EGR?

I have not seen the code cheat, I may give that a try.
I will have my wife drive next week and see what she think as it is the van she normally drives. I am sure she will let me know if something is wrong. If she says something about it missing I may try and do a compression test. Last time I did one was over 20+ years ago. And then it was one you had to hold the gauge in the plug hole. Is there a cheap way to do the compression test now?

They have compression gauges that one screws into the spark plug hole.....I don't know how else one would get to the rear 3 cylinders with the hand-held version.

You might be able to get one from AutoZone on the loaner tool program (free).

To change my oil.....I drive the front wheels up onto ramps.
I use a pan under the drain plug.....drain the oil....then put a small pan there....and use my big 15 quart pan under the area around the oil filter.....
YES that filter is particularly messy to remove.
I try to hold it so that the threaded end does NOT drop when it comes free of the mount......and move the filter out without letting the open end drop.
Any time that threaded end drops.....LOTS of oil comes out....making an even bigger mess.

Of course.....make sure that the oil filter gasket comes off with the old filter....
Then, wipe the gasket mating surface on the mount with a clean rag......making sure you don't leave any grit on the surface.

For the cost of a oil change with Mobil 1 or Motorcraft from Walmart, vs paying to have the oil tested (and wait for results).....and maybe still need to change......it is cheaper and easier to just change it.

If we were talking about some leak that we don't know if we have fixed (like a coolant leak) then testing would be the way to go, but you know how the water got in, and know that the cause is fixed.

Aquarium, get some aquarium sealant.......and run a new seal over all the old sealed glass mating surfaces.
I had a aquarium spring a leak.....and sealed it this way.......and it held
Bad news is, need to have the aquarium drained and dry....and then has to sit while the sealant cures.
One could go to the trouble to cut and remove all the old sealant....but for such a small leak.....lots of extra work.....
Which leaves the problem of what to do with the fish in the mean time?
If you were hankering for an upgrade......now might be the time and excuse to do it.

Thanks for the information.

In terms of the aquarium, I already had the upgrade in the works. I had moved the 90 a couple weeks ago and the rocks/coral fell over so maybe it cut into the silicone. I have a 300 gallon set up in its place but had not really planned on using it for another couple weeks, so I started transfering coral and fish tonight. Hope they can handle the change.

I also use (home-made wooden) ramps to lift the Winny some 10 inches when changing oil.

Do NOT do what I do, after draining the engine pan ... I reinsert the plug a few rounds ... and crank/run the engine for a few seconds ... sometimes 'til the oil pressure light comes on!! ... then I remove the plug again for this additional quantity. Some of this extra oil comes from the filter ... making a little less mess. I wipe around the filter base before removing, and keep several paper towels around the filter while unscrewing. It ain't perfect, but its much better. When the filter is stubborn, I also have a 3/8" drive filter one-way removal tool that is very handy on a long extension. I use MOBIL1 oil. Winny will soon have 300k miles, GW!

BUT DON'T do what I do!

I also like using Walmart oil changing services ... they do a good job.

12Ounce - LOL, that's the way my grandpa taught me to change the oil. After removing the drain plug and the old oil stream quit flowing, he'd start the car for 2-3 secs. to be sure to get out all that "old black oil". Then he'd remove the oil filter and it didn't seem to leak oil as bad.

Before installing the new filter (after wiping the metal sealing surface clean), he'd always pour as much new oil into the filter before screwing it back on as it would hold w/o leaking during the install. He always put a ring of new oil on the gasket of the filter too so it would slide smoothly as it compressed. Then back in with the drain plug and topped off the crankcase.

His cars were 50's and 60's Ramblers (Nash) and early 70's Toyota's. Not sure I'd want to do his techniques on the new vehicles with all the tighter tolerances and such.

... Ah, those Nashs, Hudsons, HenryJ's, etc, etc ... and I use to love the Ole Packards,... but all my family could afford/wanted was Fords and Plymouths. Many of those old cars would still be around if they had benefit of today's improved lube products.

Yes, purging the "last oil" is really not wise today ... too many engine revolutions ... and suddenly you have an engine rebuild on your hands. I certainly wouldn't want anyone else doing it for me!

To catch the spillage from the filter, I cut the lower quarter off a 2-liter soda bottle, and remove the filter with the bottle under it. If the lid is on the bottle and you're reasonably careful while undoing the filter, then it will catch most of the oil that comes out the filter as it's unscrewed.

Small update. My wife has been driving around town and now drove 2.5 hours away and she is reporting no problems. So I think we are good and now need a little time to pass before I call success to the noise, although I think that is it.

That's good to hear. Thanks for the update and post back again in a week or two to give your final assessment. Always good to have some closure to a topic storyline...

Good news! Please try to keep rainstorms out of your engine internals, hereafter. (LOL)

Well the noise has not come back, thanks 12Ounce.
Now the problem is misfire. Ran B -12 thru the gas tank and the engine seemed to have misfire, then went away after a couple hour trip. It is now back and has CEL showing misfire on cylinder 3 and 5. I replaced the plugs and wire about 33,000 miles ago when changing the isolator bolts. Should I try another injector treatment, change all the plugs and/or wires? Coil, can it be checked?
Just not sure how to diagnose this issue.
Steve

Since #3 and #5 are NOT on the same coil in the pack, it makes me guess something other than the pack is involved. Just the same, I would remove the pack ... clean and inspect it ... remove the plugs and cables and give everything a close check ... looking for high voltage tracks, etc.

Did you ever do a compression test?

I never did the compression test?
Should I as I found my old gauge that you just hold in the cylinder.

To do the compression test, open the throttle body and rotate your engine. It's a good idea to test these 2 cylinders.

When you remove the plug, check if there's oil deposit on it. If it's the case, don't replace the plug, but find the cause of the oil presence.

That type gauge works ... but it is more difficult and usually requires a helper. I think screw-in gauges are part of AutoZones loaner-tool program ... but don't hold me to that. I bought mine for less than $30.

Do I need to rotate the engine by hand or can I use the starter when doing the compression test?

yes, you need to rotate it by hand, with a breaker bar.

I would initially turn it by hand after the plugs are out ... just to make sure its free. But I always use the starter for compression testing. Crank it 'til the gauge needle peaks out.

BTW, don't try the test unless all plugs are out ... too much load on the starter.

Ok, you can use the starter. I recommend you also to disable the fuel pump, and also that the engine is hot when you do the test.

Pressure should be between 100-150 psi.

So should I just pull fuse 5 under the hood to disable the fuel pump before testing?

exactly

Don't forget to check how the plugs are connected before disconnect them.

Finally got around to test the cylinders.
Here is what I have for compression which I think is okay.
Cylinder 1 - 3
140 120 120
Cylinder 4 - 6
140 135 135
I did not see and high voltage tracks on the wires.
Here is a picture of the plugs which I think all look okay.
Any thoughts on what else to try and I will try and go clean the coil pack now.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/SlimJimRD/On%20line%20picture/IMG_0039.jpg

So I took the coil out and one of the corners is cracked on the black plastic, closest to coil #6. Should I go ahead and replace it?

Yes, the compression is good. The plugs are good too, but it has oil deposit as you see. I suggest you to clean them and rub carefully to improve conductivity on electrode.

Oil deposit indicate oil consumption. Does your engine burns oil?

Any thoughts on what else to try and I will try and go clean the coil pack now.

I don't know why you want to clean your coil pack. It never need to be cleaned.

BTW, which brand/model are your plugs. I'm curious, I never seen these type of plugs.

So I took the coil out and one of the corners is cracked on the black plastic, closest to coil #6. Should I go ahead and replace it?


No, measure resistance between pin 6 and pin 2, if you have between 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohm, you are ok.

coil schematic is:
5 1
6 2
4 3

If car is working, you should be ok.

No oil consumption that I have seen.
I made sure gap on the plugs were correct before I replaced them.
I am going to change the coil because of the crack and the rust on the coil. Maybe I do not need to but while I have everything apart I decided to change it. Might just be a waste of $65.00 but it is getting dark and suppose to most of the week. And we know how I do with the rain and this van. LOL

I tested the resistance
5 1 13.16 K ohm
6 2 13.18 K ohm
4 3 13.08 K ohm
Outside the range 6.5 to 11.5 k-ohm

New coil
5 1 10.65 K ohm
6 2 10.72 K ohm
4 3 nothing

Suppose the new one is bad, back to Autozone.

New coil
5 1 10.65 K ohm
6 2 10.72 K ohm
4 3 nothing

Suppose the new one is bad, back to Autozone.

That is weird. I never seen a bad new coil :lol:.

New New coil tests correctly.
Just my luck I get the one coil that is bad.
10.42
10.48
10.45
I am going to go put it on and get closed up before the rain come.

At least, you're lucky that your part store closes at 6pm on Sunday.
Mine closes on Sunday.

You've done the correct thing, replacing a coil with a cracked body ... no matter the readings. Another important meter reading is ... all/any cable socket-to-ground. "Ground" being the metal around mounting-bolt-hole. Reading should very high ... "open circuit".

12 ounce,
I did not understand your last comment about the cable socket to ground.
What is a cable socket, the spark plug cable end?
Are you saying the spark plug wire to ground, the inside of the coil to ground?

I forgot to answer the plug question. Not sure what brand they are, probably Champian or Bosch platinum, I got them at Autozone.

12 ounce,
I did not understand your last comment about the cable socket to ground.
What is a cable socket, the spark plug cable end?
Are you saying the spark plug wire to ground, the inside of the coil to ground?

No, he meant the ground case of the coil should be properly connected to the engine block through the bolt. The current flow through this ground. But there's another ground connection in the input connector too.

I forgot to answer the plug question. Not sure what brand they are, probably Champian or Bosch platinum, I got them at Autozone.

If it's Bosch plugs, replace them the soon as possible. Many members in this forum had problem with Bosch plugs in their Windstar. It misfires. When they change them, the problem's gone. Your problem may be related to that...
The best are motorcraft, NGK, superlite...

12 ounce,

What is a cable socket, the spark plug cable end?....Yes.
Are you saying the spark plug wire to ground, the inside of the coil to ground?...(??) ... Using the ohmmeter, read resistance from "the female socket" that recieves the spark cable end - to - the coil's base, or metal at the little bolt hole. This should be an extremely high reading. A low reading indicates the coil body insulation is breaking down. Test all coils/sockets.


As the insulation breaks down due to age and exposure, the hi-voltage supplied at the coil's ends will leak to ground, essentially snuffing out the spark of two plugs.

Perhaps I should have said: "Coil-end to ground". To my mind, this is a more important reading than the one that's coil-end-to-coil-end. But they are all important.

Just for discussion: The reason for wiping the coil surface clean is to prevent hi-voltage shorts/tracking caused by gunk on the surface of the coil.

So I checked to see what the actual plug I have and it is the Bosch HR9DPY.
Because I still have the missing issue should I first change the plugs to the Autolite double platinum?

So I checked to see what the actual plug I have and it is the Bosch HR9DPY.
Because I still have the missing issue should I first change the plugs to the Autolite double platinum?

Yes you should!
Even if you didn't had the issue, you should.

AutoZone carries the double platinumn plug for the windstar in both the Motorcraft and Autolite brand names.
Don't get the multi-prong type.....as they don't seem to work so well in the windstar....from what folks say.

Double platiumn as is platinumn enhancement on the ground tab as well as the center electrode.