Weird Oil Leak
drzoidberg
04-14-2009, 06:47 PM
Got home from work today and noticed a few drops of fluid dripped onto the concrete. Smelled and looked like oil. It continued to drip slowly for a couple minutes after the car was turned off, then pretty much stopped.
I looked under the car with a mirror, and the droplets appeared to be forming on one of two metal tubes running almost directly over the oil filter, and under the main pulley. I can't see the lines from above the car, so I'm not sure what they are. They look like they transition to rubber tubing, run away from the front of the car, toward the firewall, and then maybe up near the tensioner. Not sure though, all this was by mirror inspection. Also, there is a corner of the oil pan that may be directly above the metal tubes, but it's very difficult to see as the view is obscured by the tubes.
Oil filter is only about 3 months old, and doesn't seem to be in bad condition, loose, or oily at all. I didn't really see any signs of oil around the bottom of the main pulley, really just on those two metal lines near where they change into rubber hoses. I started the van up again and ran it for a couple minutes with some revving. Didn't leak any oil immediately, but a couple minutes later it leaked a drop or two.
Anybody have any idea what those two metal/rubber lines are, or any ideas on where the oil might suddenly be coming from? I think it may also have been slowly leaking intermittently (i.e. sometimes it will sit for a day with no leaks, leak a few drops, and then not leak again for a day, all without being run at all in-between. Is it possible that there is a small leak in the oil pan gasket that may be oozing at a certain temp or something?
I did just clean out my PCV valve of the winter goo (lots of short trips in cold) 2 days ago, but I would think that would lower crankcase pressure making any problems related to crankcase pressure better.
Thanks
I looked under the car with a mirror, and the droplets appeared to be forming on one of two metal tubes running almost directly over the oil filter, and under the main pulley. I can't see the lines from above the car, so I'm not sure what they are. They look like they transition to rubber tubing, run away from the front of the car, toward the firewall, and then maybe up near the tensioner. Not sure though, all this was by mirror inspection. Also, there is a corner of the oil pan that may be directly above the metal tubes, but it's very difficult to see as the view is obscured by the tubes.
Oil filter is only about 3 months old, and doesn't seem to be in bad condition, loose, or oily at all. I didn't really see any signs of oil around the bottom of the main pulley, really just on those two metal lines near where they change into rubber hoses. I started the van up again and ran it for a couple minutes with some revving. Didn't leak any oil immediately, but a couple minutes later it leaked a drop or two.
Anybody have any idea what those two metal/rubber lines are, or any ideas on where the oil might suddenly be coming from? I think it may also have been slowly leaking intermittently (i.e. sometimes it will sit for a day with no leaks, leak a few drops, and then not leak again for a day, all without being run at all in-between. Is it possible that there is a small leak in the oil pan gasket that may be oozing at a certain temp or something?
I did just clean out my PCV valve of the winter goo (lots of short trips in cold) 2 days ago, but I would think that would lower crankcase pressure making any problems related to crankcase pressure better.
Thanks
drzoidberg
04-14-2009, 07:19 PM
Forgot to mention, it's a 98 Limited. I'm thinking it might be the oil cooler leaking, perhaps? Anybody ever hear of those going bad?
wiswind
04-14-2009, 08:02 PM
The oil cooler was an option....I don't have one....but have read about them.
If you have a factory oil cooler.....it is a small heat exchanger that is mounted between the oil filter and the oil pump......
In other words.....if you have the factory cooler.....you are screwing the oil filter onto it.
The factory oil cooler has 2 coolant lines going to it.
These lines carry antifreeze......to the cooler.....and the oil cooler serves to transfer heat from the oil to the antifreeze.
The 2 fluids do not mix.......unless there is something wrong with the oil cooler.
As I don't have one.....I am not certain on the routing for the coolant lines.
There are NO lines that carry the oil away from the oil cooler......just coolant....which flows through passeges in the small metal sandwich cooler.......the oil passes through different passeges.....from the oil pump....to the oil filter.....through the oil filter....and back through the cooler.....and on through the motor.
The factory oil cooler spins onto the oil filter location....much as the oil filter does.......and then the oil filter spins onto the cooler.
Now....if you have a aftermarket motor oil cooler......things will be different.
You need to get the front of the vehicle safely and securely up so that you can inspect from underneath.......it is hard enough to see around the oil filter from under the car....much less trying to peak around with a mirror.....although you may end up using the mirror from down there.
Lots of places for leaks to happen.....also check the power steering.......is the fluid level low?
It is not unusual for the power steering fluid (which is actually Automatic Transmission Fluid......Mercon V....just like the transmission calls for) to darken due to heat.
Use the dipstick markings on the power steering fluid cap to determine level.
A low fluid level can help you locate the source of the leak.
Motor oil?.....around the oil filter (including the factory cooler, if present) or higher.....which would include the front cover (aka timing cover).
Front cover is a expensive repair due to the labor involved.
As you have indicated......a leak can start up high....and drip down....taking strange routes on the way down......
If you have a factory oil cooler.....it is a small heat exchanger that is mounted between the oil filter and the oil pump......
In other words.....if you have the factory cooler.....you are screwing the oil filter onto it.
The factory oil cooler has 2 coolant lines going to it.
These lines carry antifreeze......to the cooler.....and the oil cooler serves to transfer heat from the oil to the antifreeze.
The 2 fluids do not mix.......unless there is something wrong with the oil cooler.
As I don't have one.....I am not certain on the routing for the coolant lines.
There are NO lines that carry the oil away from the oil cooler......just coolant....which flows through passeges in the small metal sandwich cooler.......the oil passes through different passeges.....from the oil pump....to the oil filter.....through the oil filter....and back through the cooler.....and on through the motor.
The factory oil cooler spins onto the oil filter location....much as the oil filter does.......and then the oil filter spins onto the cooler.
Now....if you have a aftermarket motor oil cooler......things will be different.
You need to get the front of the vehicle safely and securely up so that you can inspect from underneath.......it is hard enough to see around the oil filter from under the car....much less trying to peak around with a mirror.....although you may end up using the mirror from down there.
Lots of places for leaks to happen.....also check the power steering.......is the fluid level low?
It is not unusual for the power steering fluid (which is actually Automatic Transmission Fluid......Mercon V....just like the transmission calls for) to darken due to heat.
Use the dipstick markings on the power steering fluid cap to determine level.
A low fluid level can help you locate the source of the leak.
Motor oil?.....around the oil filter (including the factory cooler, if present) or higher.....which would include the front cover (aka timing cover).
Front cover is a expensive repair due to the labor involved.
As you have indicated......a leak can start up high....and drip down....taking strange routes on the way down......
drzoidberg
04-14-2009, 08:16 PM
Thanks for the thoughts wiswind. I'm pretty sure the fluid is engine oil. I considered the PS fluid since it's around that area, but my oil doesn't get many miles so it's a fairly recognizable light brown (which is the color of the leake fluid), while the PS fluid is more of a gray/red, as I've been slowly replacing the old black fluid with a turkey baster. Also, the leaked fluid smells some of gas, which I take to mean engine oil.
I have the factory manual, and I was poking around in it and it appears that I have the factory installed oil cooler, in which case the coolant lines run right to the radiator. The cooling block on the factory cooler has long been shiny with what appears to be some sort of oil, since it never dries, but I never could figure out where it was coming from. The engine looks fairly clean up around the oil pan edge, which I think is where the front timing cover gasket is also. The factory cooler is really just an adapter that screws onto the real oil filter mount, so maybe the seal between the cooler and the real mount is screwed up?
I have the factory manual, and I was poking around in it and it appears that I have the factory installed oil cooler, in which case the coolant lines run right to the radiator. The cooling block on the factory cooler has long been shiny with what appears to be some sort of oil, since it never dries, but I never could figure out where it was coming from. The engine looks fairly clean up around the oil pan edge, which I think is where the front timing cover gasket is also. The factory cooler is really just an adapter that screws onto the real oil filter mount, so maybe the seal between the cooler and the real mount is screwed up?
cabron1
04-19-2009, 05:50 PM
I have the same engine oil leak. I have been trying to figure it out for a number of weeks now. I have a fairly large leak. In about two, my oil was full, and yesterday, the dip stick was dry.
I tightened the oil filter; it was fairly loose. That didn't fix the problem. I took the front tire off, and got under there. I couldn't even figure out if I have the factory oil cooler. There was a huge mess of oil. Oil is stained all the back to the oil drain plug. Massive amount of oil around steering rack, front half shaft, etc. I could not see or figure out where the oil was leaking. After about half hour of looking around I gave up. Ed, my mechanic is going to get to solve the problem.
Hope it is not the timing cover.
By the way, my 2000 windstar has about 110,000 miles ( 180,000 km ). I live in Canada.
Would appreciate any advise.
Thanks
I tightened the oil filter; it was fairly loose. That didn't fix the problem. I took the front tire off, and got under there. I couldn't even figure out if I have the factory oil cooler. There was a huge mess of oil. Oil is stained all the back to the oil drain plug. Massive amount of oil around steering rack, front half shaft, etc. I could not see or figure out where the oil was leaking. After about half hour of looking around I gave up. Ed, my mechanic is going to get to solve the problem.
Hope it is not the timing cover.
By the way, my 2000 windstar has about 110,000 miles ( 180,000 km ). I live in Canada.
Would appreciate any advise.
Thanks
wiswind
04-19-2009, 07:06 PM
Most Windstars do not have the factory oil cooler......it is part of the factory towing package.
There will be 2 pipes going to the oil cooler.....which is a small item that is mounted on the filter mount....and the oil filter mounts to that.......so the thing to look for are the 2 pipes.
I guess the first thing that I would try is to replace the oil filter....making SURE that there is not a extra filter gasket there......
It is not uncommon for the gasket from the old filter to stay stuck on the filter mount......so check that out.
Maybe you just got a bum oil filter.....not common....but does happen.
There will be 2 pipes going to the oil cooler.....which is a small item that is mounted on the filter mount....and the oil filter mounts to that.......so the thing to look for are the 2 pipes.
I guess the first thing that I would try is to replace the oil filter....making SURE that there is not a extra filter gasket there......
It is not uncommon for the gasket from the old filter to stay stuck on the filter mount......so check that out.
Maybe you just got a bum oil filter.....not common....but does happen.
cabron1
04-20-2009, 08:40 PM
Folks, Ed the mechanic fixed the problem for the price of an oil change. The filter was installed at the ford dealership. OEM ford filter rusted out in 4 winter months.
I am pleased that it was a simple fix. However, I am not pleased the fact that an OEM filter rusted out. I guess, the lifetime of an oil filter is 3.9 winter months.
Still annoyed...
I am pleased that it was a simple fix. However, I am not pleased the fact that an OEM filter rusted out. I guess, the lifetime of an oil filter is 3.9 winter months.
Still annoyed...
deathstar96
10-12-2009, 12:29 PM
I have the exact same probelm, the oil is dripping onto the coolant lines of the oil cooler (I have tow package) and then onto the ground, it drips dramtically, bad enough I cant drive van without running low on oil in two days. Since the oil cooler obstructs my view of where the oil is leaking from I will remove the cooler for now and by pass the coolant lines to get a better view while engine is running, I ALREADY REPLACED THE TIMING CHAIN COVER OIL SEAL for CRANKSHAFT thinking that was the problem but IT WAS NOT! So its leaking maybe from oil pan or some other spot higher up on engine around timing chain cover?, I would expect this is a routine problem for Windstar at higher mileage and someone has dealt with this problem and can help me zero in on the leak? IT IS MOTOR OIL leak, not Power steering, and I know its not from oil filter or the oil cooler. but once I remove the oil cooler I will know for certain.
WISWIND please help! thanks!
WISWIND please help! thanks!
wiswind
10-12-2009, 08:12 PM
I don't know that I can offer much help.
I have read about oil pans rusting.....from the outside....making a hole.
Another thing might be a leak from around the oil pressure sensor....... I have it labeled in this picture......have to remove the power steering pump/alternator bracket to even see this.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1349972354011220610YwOpbP
The picture was taken with the power steering pump, alternator, and the big bracket that holds them....all removed.
The Serpentine belt is also removed.
This is the view from standing next to the passenger side tire.....beside the car.....looking down into the engine compartment.
While replacing my power steering pump a few years ago, I decided to take this picture for the collection.
You could also have a leaking valve cover gasket or even lower intake manifold gasket.
I have noticed that there is supposed to be a oil level sensor on some windstars.
I do not seem to have it....and noticed that the replacement oil pan comes for "With oil level sensor" or "Without oil level sensor" so it must be an option.
Maybe one who has the factory oil cooler may have the oil level sensor.
Alldata shows the oil level sensor to be mounted in the OIL PAN, up above the oil drain plug.
So.....as oriented on the vehicle.....it will be on the back side of the oil pan......above the drain plug.
I do not know how a leak from that location would get up toward the location that has been discussed in this thread.....but thought that I would mention the oil level sensor as.....like me.....someone else may wonder about it.
I have read about oil pans rusting.....from the outside....making a hole.
Another thing might be a leak from around the oil pressure sensor....... I have it labeled in this picture......have to remove the power steering pump/alternator bracket to even see this.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1349972354011220610YwOpbP
The picture was taken with the power steering pump, alternator, and the big bracket that holds them....all removed.
The Serpentine belt is also removed.
This is the view from standing next to the passenger side tire.....beside the car.....looking down into the engine compartment.
While replacing my power steering pump a few years ago, I decided to take this picture for the collection.
You could also have a leaking valve cover gasket or even lower intake manifold gasket.
I have noticed that there is supposed to be a oil level sensor on some windstars.
I do not seem to have it....and noticed that the replacement oil pan comes for "With oil level sensor" or "Without oil level sensor" so it must be an option.
Maybe one who has the factory oil cooler may have the oil level sensor.
Alldata shows the oil level sensor to be mounted in the OIL PAN, up above the oil drain plug.
So.....as oriented on the vehicle.....it will be on the back side of the oil pan......above the drain plug.
I do not know how a leak from that location would get up toward the location that has been discussed in this thread.....but thought that I would mention the oil level sensor as.....like me.....someone else may wonder about it.
deathstar96
10-12-2009, 09:24 PM
The bottom line for me to solve this oil leak is too start removing all the frontal parts of the engine around the timing chain cover, I suspect its leaking more from the lower end of engine and not a valve cover or oil pressure from above. The leak got larger when I was pressure washing the engine for some crazy reason. I will have to say I'm disappointed in Ford with the transmission reliability and the oil leaks, but on the positive side this is the most comfortable ride I have owned thus far, I have a 2007 Mustang GT all tricked out but I still prefer to drive my Windstar, the brakes are awesome (tow package), and the seat are so cozy and smooth ride and handling for a van.
wiswind
10-13-2009, 11:28 PM
That front cover, aka timing cover, gasket was not good.....
The replacement gasket is much improved, and I don't know if they caught on to the problem during the production run of the Windstar.....on the later years.
Problem is.....replacing that $15 gasket is a MAJOR job.
The timing cover is what the water pump and oil pump are mounted on.
The crankshaft pulley also passes through the timing cover.
The common leak for the timing cover is one of the cooling passages.....out of the motor and/or into the crankcase.
Mine was leaking very slightly a long time ago......more of a seepage.....
I used Bar's Stop Leak.....pelleted type to seal it up...and it has held for many years.
I don't trust the concept of a "oil stop leak", but have no experience with it.
I would continue your search....maybe you will get lucky and find the leak to be someplace easy to fix.
The replacement gasket is much improved, and I don't know if they caught on to the problem during the production run of the Windstar.....on the later years.
Problem is.....replacing that $15 gasket is a MAJOR job.
The timing cover is what the water pump and oil pump are mounted on.
The crankshaft pulley also passes through the timing cover.
The common leak for the timing cover is one of the cooling passages.....out of the motor and/or into the crankcase.
Mine was leaking very slightly a long time ago......more of a seepage.....
I used Bar's Stop Leak.....pelleted type to seal it up...and it has held for many years.
I don't trust the concept of a "oil stop leak", but have no experience with it.
I would continue your search....maybe you will get lucky and find the leak to be someplace easy to fix.
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