MOTY Voting

Two days to go, and I have 30 entries now. Just about time to start this thing!

But before we do, I wanted to give a bit of thought to voting. In previous years, the vote tally has been updated and shown every few days until the end of the contest. It has made the contest a bit of a horse race, and often has shown the winner well before the contest has ended. But I don't necessarily believe because it's been done before that it is inherently the way it should always be.

Obviously, it is not an objective way to run a contest. Showing the vote tally before the end of the contest can very much influence later votes. But that doesn't mean it isn't fun to do the voting horse race style.

I could go either way on showing the vote tally during the voting. So I'm curious what other people think of it. Would you rather have the objectivity of not seeing the votes until the end of voting? Is it fun for you to see other peoples votes before voting? Which way would you enjoy MOTY more? Any strong opinions either way? (Of course if we do horse race style, we could conspire as a group to give Alex his 18 points. :naughty: :evillol: )


I will post the official entry thread on Friday- however votes will not be accepted until Saturday. I want to give one day so that if there are any issues with it (pics not working, builds mislabeled, missing entries, etc) they can be resolved before voting actually starts. Voting will run two weeks, from Saturday the 17th until the end of the month.

I've received a bunch of terrific entries- this will be fun! :grinyes: Thanks to everyone who has entered. :thumbsup:

I'm having a mixed feelings about both ways. It is more fun to do a horserace style voting, but the result is not always objective.

While not revealing any vote results until the end of the contest would be boring as what Utah people called "heck".

What about just giving updates on the top 5 or ten without revealing the vote counts for each? just a thought that I thought I'd share :D

Personally, I'd prefer to leave it blind until voting closes, but that's just me - I don't even TRY to peek at my Christmas presents until the morning of the 25th : )

Leave it blind until the voting ends, people should vote only based on the builds without any other interference.

Another way might be to hide the current tally until after the person has voted. Once their vote is cast and on subsequent visits to the thread they would be able to "see" the current vote tally.

hmm im more for blind too i guess? Haha

Roland

Another way might be to hide the current tally until after the person has voted. Once their vote is cast and on subsequent visits to the thread they would be able to "see" the current vote tally.

That is a good way to do it, but I don't know whether this is possible?

mhh everything has an upside and a downside... I would probably just do it like the previous years, it was always fun to see other people getting tons of points each day :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I am still working like crazy on the Aston to get it finished in time... And it works like a dream, today I managed to break a 100ml glass paint bottle which lead to a freaking mess, then dropped my airbrush (it is of course damaged now but still useable...) and back at my workbench damaged 2 vacuform parts... :loser:

humm...it's my first time attending this kinda of online modeling awards (as a prize giver), i was wondering besides letting the eventual winners choosing their prizes...how about those remaining prize givers to choose their own winners too!?

if this can be done, then there be all winners out there! after the top 3 majority winners, there are also that one model that deserved to be rewarded for his/her work...in my own judgement that is.

what do you all say?

I think a blind vote would do, but if you want to keep it a secret race, post the top 5 points , without naming any build, so we can all still see if there is a dog race, but noone would know what builds they actually are

It's ever been fun to follow the final top's rush.

But I think we'll try a different way and see if it woul dbe fun too. I'm for blind votes.

I vote for a blind voting procedure. Then it's up to me to study the pics and make my own opinion. I think you, without being aware of it, are influenced by how others vote. A high number of votes can make you more interested in having a closer look to see why that build got so many votes and in the same manner leaving the low voted builds without too much attention.

Posting the votes as we go is more exciting but I'm still for a blind vote.
/Joel

I agree that blind voting would be the way to go.
Not sure if there is a way to see the voting tally after you voted, but that would be a great idea too.

yes, yes! blind vote is the way to go!

count me in!

I´going for the blind vote as well. Makes every vote more objective in my eyes. There are still many influences on how and on who to vote (f.ex. the WIP-Thread as well as the actual builders identity).

Cheers


Robert

Leave it blind until the voting ends, people should vote only based on the builds without any other interference.
I agree.

:1: have it blind.

:smokin: BLIND>>>>>>>>>>>Melon

Given it's been horse-race style for ages we really should give blind a try and see how we feel about it. If we don't end up liking it, we can it for next year. At least we'll have a definitive view on each option then.

Also, imagine the anticipation and "edge of your seat" feeling on the final judging day... we'll all be logged in and refreshing the page a million times a minute to see when MPWR finally puts up the results... hehe

My vote is blind as well.
Good luck everyone!

+1 leave it blind.

I'm for leaving it blind.

I'd also vote for blind voting :smokin:

The AF servers are not going to crash just because the modeling section users refresh the page every two seconds. Could be ebay-ish fun on the last day, hehe. 3, 2, 1....

Well that seems pretty decisive, doesn't it? Glad I asked.

The voting will be done blind, and the results will not be shown until voting ends on the 31st.

It would be cool if as soon as you voted, the current tally could be visible for you- but unfortunately it's technically infeasible. So everyone gets to see the results at the same time, when the contest ends. Hopefully that won't be the day that AF gets it's much needed software upgrade (which is coming soon!).

I'd say "blind," too. But you can also disclose a "points by date" chart like the one in this page, so you can still follow how votings are accumulated. (Probably not for all, but just top ten.)
http://homepage2.nifty.com/jlmc/countach_conpe2.html

That way, we would still be able to review how the "race" was done.

how about make it extra suspensful by telling us who has received points/votes but not how many actual points?
y'know, so that we'd know entry a, b and c have points but not who got the 1,2 or 3.

Not showing votes would make the contest better and more fair.

Voting is now open.

Voting is now open.

:grinyes:

Please see here for voting instructions (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5884660&postcount=1), pick your three favorites, and vote!

So Alex, how's the voting going?

All right folks!
With only 5 days left till the end of voting for AFMOTY 2008, I thought I'll give all of you an update on the voting to make a bit more interesting. Without revealing too much information, I thought I will post some voting statistics:

We have 45 entries this year, and 2/3rds of all entries (30 models) have at least one vote! I think this shows the quality of models entered in the competition this year!

Overall racecars are getting more votes than road cars, but there are some exceptions.

We certainly have some favorites, and as of few minutes ago we have 6 models ahead of the pack with double digit number of votes. The numbers are very close, so it is hard to say if we have a sure winner as of yet.

Finally, we have 42 people (as of my last count) that sent their votes so far, so if you still haven't voted, it is time now!

anyone have 18 points :p

racecars are getting more votes than road cars
In that case, I'm doing a shiny fast car next year! :rofl: :evillol: ;)

Go on Alex, give us some numbers! :D hehe
No names, hints or clues - just some numbers. For example what are the actual scores on the top 3, 5 or 10?

I have to take back my comment regarding how boring this voting method is. It's actually fun not knowing who the winner is. It's also true that the bar has been raised yet again, there are plenty of wonderful entries. I couldn;t even decide my votes until yesterday. Great job everyone!

Just 42 votes - ooh. Again, I can´t see why. We have about 1.200 people viewing the Entry-thread and only 42 votes? Come on people.
This is what I´ve been talking about. Where is your participation?
I can´t believe it - only 42 votes.


Robert

Just 42 votes - ooh. Again, I can´t see why. We have about 1.200 people viewing the Entry-thread and only 42 votes? Come on people.
This is what I´ve been talking about. Where is your participation?
I can´t believe it - only 42 votes.


Robert

I agree with Robert - that's a shame :(

And BTW: 45 entries and only 42 voters?? That means not even all the folks who entered the contest voted. Uhoh... come on guys!!!

Guys , I wouldn't get too worried just yet ;)

People tend to leave things to the last minute (apart from the Germans of course :) ). I mean just look at how the entries were sent in - nothing...nothing....nothing...then a last minute rush.

I rather expect Andy and the guys will start pestering everyone soon to vote and on the last day they will get quite a few PMs ;) But that's just my best guess, of course.

EDIT: BTW I haven't voted yet either LOL

EDIT: BTW I haven't voted yet either LOL

Same here. I still have 5 builds on the list and after I'll sack 2 of them I'll need time to decide the order.
A very difficult job, almost impossible to decide which one of the perfect builds is better.

anyone have 18 points :p

Nope, but couple of entries are close :-)

In that case, I'm doing a shiny fast car next year! :rofl: :evillol: ;)

Go on Alex, give us some numbers! :D hehe
No names, hints or clues - just some numbers. For example what are the actual scores on the top 3, 5 or 10?

Ummm, nah :-) Not yet. Maybe after you vote? :evillol:


Come on people, let's vote now! I've got 5 more PMs so I'm going to check them out.

People tend to leave things to the last minute (apart from the Germans of course :) ).

EDIT: BTW I haven't voted yet either LOL

Ohh come on that is just a cliché... :iceslolan

BTW I already voted :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ohh come on that is just a cliché... :iceslolan

BTW I already voted :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just a cliché? Jep - and even more. It´s just true. I just hope that you guys don´t get too much work with the voting! We´ll need you next year as well!

Robert

Ohh come on that is just a cliché... :iceslolan

BTW I already voted :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :thumbsup: ;)

I'm definitely going for the last minute method, ha! Seriously, how you've all managed to whittle them down already is incredible....I've only managed to get my list down to 12 :crying:! I still think if people are saying, "we're all winners"...shouldn't we all get prizes? :evillol:

! I still think if people are saying, "we're all winners"...shouldn't we all get prizes? :evillol:

That my friend would be socialism! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That my friend would be socialism! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

More like children's sports leagues in the US anymore . . . . everybody gets a trophy!

We're all just too used to ebay by now. Everybody waits to snipe a last second vote :-)

Hey...and as for clichés....i'm german and i haven't even decided about my vote yet:-)
Even worse....i have to finish a model for a group build/contest on a german forum before the weekend and it's a 1/72 plane of all things. ( And it's bloody annoying because it's a crap kit and i had no time to do it properly....:-).

Just two days to go! Votes will be received until the end of January, GMT.

Soon, very soon the votes will be tallied, and the winner must begin to endure his public adoration and ridicule!!

Despite what Alex has said, a clear leader has emerged!! One entry has been ahead from nearly the very first vote cast. Second and third now are 'close', and one model is just a single point away from receiving an arbitrary 18 votes!

Who will the winner be??

Most of the Germans have voted now, so it's time for the rest of you to pick your favorites and send them in. :grinyes:

Winners will be announced in February!

Most of the Germans have voted now, so it's time for the rest of you to pick your favorites and send them in. :grinyes:

I should have never disclosed my citizenship. I feel möcked. :frown:

You have my most sincere möck sympathy. :grinyes:

I should have never disclosed my citizenship. I feel möcked. :frown:

oh, please don't feel that way...

i'm a chinese here in SGP but i have a german 'bruder' which i love & respect so much! still trying hard to save up just to visit him in germany some day, you know...(his web name is netbaer, another 100% ferrari 1/24 freak & great modelor too!)

so be proud bro, you get my vote on this...I LOVE GERMANY!!!!

Following the dicussion from yeaterday night, I can asure you all that I was trying to be funny with my last post in this thread.

I officially announce my retirement from cyncism. It seems as I can´t really get the message through.

Cheers


"Funny" Robert

VOTE already !!

I'm curious... Did I vote for the winner? Did my vote made any difference ?

The results are in, counted, and posted. So, what did you think of the 'blind style' voting? Did you like the objectivity? Was it boring, or more exciting?

I'd say it did change vote distribution. I doubt it would have changed winners, but it means that there were some very strong builds that got few if any votes. My guess is that sympathy voting was eliminated- in previous years some people who voted later might apply their votes to builds that hadn't received many/any votes (I can't say I haven't done this)- but this year of course this was impossible.

So I'd like to propose a new idea to consider for next year. Instead of voting for first second, and third, each voter would still have six votes- but be able to distribute them however they liked. So if you could pick six favorites, each could get a single vote- or if there was one you liked far and away more than any other, you could give it all six of your votes- or some combination thereof. Thoughts?

I liked having it blind as it was great not knowing and having such suspense. As for the new voting system, it sounds good to me. Will definitely make choosing a bit easier considering the line-up of builds we had entered. Congrats people.

This was my first MOTY as an entrant or a voter, so I don't have anything to compare to. BUT, I think it turned out nicely this way. I personally don't care for the proposed 6 points to a single model idea, though - I think there was a good spread this time around, and if you let people give 6 to a single build, I think you would have seen even more of 'Schumacher-esque' domination by the top few vote getters.

Some random thoughts for changes/debate:
- Allow two or three pictures of each model
- Add on some 'best' categories that each person can nominate a single build for (best paint, best race car, best curbside, etc) in addition to 1st/2nd/3rd - not necessarily for prizes, though.
- In addition to the 'best', score it so that the recognition could only go to those who don't get on the podium. Of course, now that I write it out, it sounds dangerously like the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality they teach our kids these days . . . so maybe not :redface:
- Ban Alex entirely (KIDDING!!!)

I actually think that we shouldn't try to fix what's not broken. Current voting system worked well for some many years, I don't think there is a reason to change it now. My .2 cents.

I might as well chip in. I think it is broken. I think Andy is onto something, I like the 1..6 idea, but need a bit more convincing about the allocation thing. I found it very hard to vote 1,2,3, especially as I had followed some of the whips, but not others, so it almost felt fairer to treat it like a photo-contest.

I don't like different b/w 1st and 3rd (1st = 3 x 3rd? really?, your 4th best out of *50* scores nothing? really?) I know it evens out to some extent, but we do see an explosion at the top and a very strong emphasis on the number of 3 votes as opposed to the number of voters. We could choose the number of votes and the scores to achieve a balance - eg, 2,3,4 (1st = 2 x 3rd, nah...), 3,4,5 points (hmm, maybe...), 1..6, yeh, seems ok, or 48,49,50!!? hmm, maybe not...

Also, some entries are clearly detailed, some are not, and some you have no idea about, so I think we should link to the WIPs. That way people are voting for the build, the detail, the style, the speed, everything, instead of just voting for a photo. I know it makes voting a more difficult task, but hey... It's impossible to be blind anyway, everyone knows the "popular" models.

Well, anyway, it'll be just as great as ever whatever the rules, so no big deal :grinno:

There are up- and downsides to everything. If there are about 50 entries it is extremely hard to pick only 3 favorites. Blind voting is IMO the better way. Linking to WIP threads would counteract it a little, I guess.

To make things a bit more even in terms of giving curbside models a fair chance against full detailed ones, we could think about splitting the contest in two sections: full detail and curbside. Six votes for each section, whether in 3-2-1 or free schemes to be debated. I think this would give curbside models like the (e.g.) Subaru Hippo Sleek Wagon a chance to compete. Otherwise it might happen that people are thinking "Why should I enter my best curbside - I have slight to no chances with it anyway". It's all about fun and most people enter not to win, but to see builds where they didn't follow the WIP threads. But it's more fun if you have a chance, isn't it?

Just my :2cents:

Blind voting all the way baby !:biggrin:

I don't even want to know who I'm voting for !

Being a newbie here I jumped in with a last minute entry because there was a plea for contestants along with a threat to cancel the whole thing if more didn't emerge. That seemed bizarre to me considering there are hundreds(thousands?) of car modelers registered on the forum. In hindsight, I think the last minute surge of great entries was more due to an implied promise of rules reform, than procrastination and I predict that without drastic changes MOTY will face far worse participation next year.

I think MOTY in it's current form is more peoples choice award or "election" than model contest and like all elections it goes to the most visible guy/model with the biggest fan base - usually the incumbent. I agree with MRAWL, the 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. I'll add, the "can't vote for your own entry" rule also discourages voting because the entrants can't even cast any votes without hurting themselves. At least political candidates can vote for themselves.

In order to fix this AF needs to recognize the potential of a real contest, set forth a concrete vision on what they want to accomplish and decide what kind of resources they are willing to devote to it. With 12 months between now and the next one this is the time.

I have been competing in IPMS events in Texas (...never met Alex Kustov...) and while I admit they hand out too many plaques in far too many categories there is an attempt within the rules to encourage all individual's to participate at all levels and develop new skill-sets within their interest. It also encourages veterans of the hobby to keep building. (Incidentally, the Indian entry which got 6 votes in MOTY, won Judges Best of Show 3 months ago in the Austin IPMS contest against 364 real models using real judges.)

I was always told never complain unless you have a solution. Here's what I'd suggest to start:
#1) Separate the MOTY into it's own award category called "Peoples Choice Award" administered through the usual blind survey format.
#2) Appoint experienced builders as REAL judges that cannot be entrants. Yes, deliberation can easily take place in cyberspace.
#3) Develop STANDARDIZED judging criteria and standardized photographs for entrants (front beauty shot, left 3/4, Dash close-up, etc) Photoshopping not allowed and influence of expensive photographic equipment should be neutralized to encourage less affluent entrants.
#4) Have a reasonable number of awards and categories that recognize accomplishment in many areas and skill levels like:
*Judges Best of Show
*Best Engine
*Best Paint
*Best Curbside
*Best Full Detail
*Longest Distance Traveled (kidding)

I'll close by saying that AF has accomplished something no other English-based car website has done that I can think of. It's attracted a seriously talented group of car modeling hobbyists from all over the world to interact, learn, grow and share. There are new people showing up daily. With a motivation to improve this annual Contest and the right nurturing it could become the best car model venue on the planet-and grow some add revenue too. Without reform it will only serve to discourage and demotivate members from future participation in MOTY and the website in general. This is not an emotional rant but an attempt to voice our present shortcomings and foster further discussion.

Being a newbie here I jumped in with a last minute entry because there was a plea for contestants along with a threat to cancel the whole thing if more didn't emerge. That seemed bizarre to me considering there are hundreds(thousands?) of car modelers registered on the forum. In hindsight, I think the last minute surge of great entries was more due to an implied promise of rules reform, than procrastination and I predict that without drastic changes MOTY will face far worse participation next year.

I think MOTY in it's current form is more peoples choice award or "election" than model contest and like all elections it goes to the most visible guy/model with the biggest fan base - usually the incumbent. I agree with MRAWL, the 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. I'll add, the "can't vote for your own entry" rule also discourages voting because the entrants can't even cast any votes without hurting themselves. At least political candidates can vote for themselves.

In order to fix this AF needs to recognize the potential of a real contest, set forth a concrete vision on what they want to accomplish and decide what kind of resources they are willing to devote to it. With 12 months between now and the next one this is the time.

I have been competing in IPMS events in Texas (...never met Alex Kustov...) and while I admit they hand out too many plaques in far too many categories there is an attempt within the rules to encourage all individual's to participate at all levels and develop new skill-sets within their interest. It also encourages veterans of the hobby to keep building. (Incidentally, the Indian entry which got 6 votes in MOTY, won Judges Best of Show 3 months ago in the Austin IPMS contest against 364 real models using real judges.)

I was always told never complain unless you have a solution. Here's what I'd suggest to start:
#1) Separate the MOTY into it's own award category called "Peoples Choice Award" administered through the usual blind survey format.
#2) Appoint experienced builders as REAL judges that cannot be entrants. Yes, deliberation can easily take place in cyberspace.
#3) Develop STANDARDIZED judging criteria and standardized photographs for entrants (front beauty shot, left 3/4, Dash close-up, etc) Photoshopping not allowed and influence of expensive photographic equipment should be neutralized to encourage less affluent entrants.
#4) Have a reasonable number of awards and categories that recognize accomplishment in many areas and skill levels like:
*Judges Best of Show
*Best Engine
*Best Paint
*Best Curbside
*Best Full Detail
*Longest Distance Traveled (kidding)

I'll close by saying that AF has accomplished something no other English-based car website has done that I can think of. It's attracted a seriously talented group of car modeling hobbyists from all over the world to interact, learn, grow and share. There are new people showing up daily. With a motivation to improve this annual Contest and the right nurturing it could become the best car model venue on the planet-and grow some add revenue too. Without reform it will only serve to discourage and demotivate members from future participation in MOTY and the website in general. This is not an emotional rant but an attempt to voice our present shortcomings and foster further discussion.

I completely and strongly disagree with that. AFMOTY is what it is, and what it has always been - AF best MODEL of the year, not best engine, not best interior, not best whatever. If we do it like you suggest, it will turn into yet another model contest, conducted over the internet (what could be worse).

Assign real judges? We couldn't get people to vote (we got a total of shameful 63 votes TOTAL, and not even all people who entered the contest voted!), and you are talking about assigning people to judge every single model and discuss every one of them, then compare it to others and come up with a winner? Utopia. That will never happen, and never will be objective.

MOTY has been a success for over 5 years in the way it is, now why we are talking about changing the rules suddenly? I simply don't get it. You say that 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. Why would we want them distributed evenly? Everyone gets a plaque, like IPMS? I simply don't get this mentality, that is exactly why I never go to IPMS events :-)

Sorry if all of the above sounds a bit rough, I just strongly feel that AFMOTY is one of the last objective contests held over the net and decided by everyone who wants to cast a vote, and changing its format will ruin it.