MOTY Voting

I completely and strongly disagree with that. AFMOTY is what it is, and what it has always been - AF best MODEL of the year, not best engine, not best interior, not best whatever. If we do it like you suggest, it will turn into yet another model contest, conducted over the internet (what could be worse).

Assign real judges? We couldn't get people to vote (we got a total of shameful 63 votes TOTAL, and not even all people who entered the contest voted!), and you are talking about assigning people to judge every single model and discuss every one of them, then compare it to others and come up with a winner? Utopia. That will never happen, and never will be objective.

MOTY has been a success for over 5 years in the way it is, now why we are talking about changing the rules suddenly? I simply don't get it. You say that 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. Why would we want them distributed evenly? Everyone gets a plaque, like IPMS? I simply don't get this mentality, that is exactly why I never go to IPMS events :-)

Sorry if all of the above sounds a bit rough, I just strongly feel that AFMOTY is one of the last objective contests held over the net and decided by everyone who wants to cast a vote, and changing its format will ruin it.
I pretty much agree with everything Alex said here.

1st place, 2nd place and third place is a pretty standard format for all contests AFAIK and yes, sometimes it is hard to make your choices.

And TBH I don't buy into the popularity thing - show me one AFMOTY winner that wasn't worthy of that title. I can't think of one personally. Case in point: This year's second place car was from a newbie with only 43 posts and 2 threads on AF!!! There may have been other exceptional models in the contest that year but that doesn't mean that the winner didn't deserve it. If the same person has won 2 or 3 years in a row, it's usually because they DO make outstanding models (and shiney :evilol:)

My friends, I don't really think we will ever turn AFMOTY into an ideal or perfect competition (whatever that may be). It is what it is - let's just enjoy it and not try and make it too complicated. After all, I think we are all agreed that there were 50 amazing models showcased this year - OUTSTANDING IMHO!!

I think MOTY in it's current form is more peoples choice award or "election" than model contest and like all elections it goes to the most visible guy/model with the biggest fan base - usually the incumbent. I agree with MRAWL, the 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. I'll add, the "can't vote for your own entry" rule also discourages voting because the entrants can't even cast any votes without hurting themselves. At least political candidates can vote for themselves.

There is no doubt the system is perfectible.

But:

In order to fix this AF needs to recognize the potential of a real contest, set forth a concrete vision on what they want to accomplish and decide what kind of resources they are willing to devote to it. With 12 months between now and the next one this is the time.

I was always told never complain unless you have a solution. Here's what I'd suggest to start:
#1) Separate the MOTY into it's own award category called "Peoples Choice Award" administered through the usual blind survey format.
#2) Appoint experienced builders as REAL judges that cannot be entrants. Yes, deliberation can easily take place in cyberspace.
#3) Develop STANDARDIZED judging criteria and standardized photographs for entrants (front beauty shot, left 3/4, Dash close-up, etc) Photoshopping not allowed and influence of expensive photographic equipment should be neutralized to encourage less affluent entrants.
#4) Have a reasonable number of awards and categories that recognize accomplishment in many areas and skill levels like:
*Judges Best of Show
*Best Engine
*Best Paint
*Best Curbside
*Best Full Detail
*Longest Distance Traveled (kidding)


I disagree with this.
AF MOTY isn't meant to be a professional model building contest with real judges, with real sponsors and "n" categories.

As I see it the spirit of this contest is to give those who build models the chance to showcase their talent and get recognition for it, other than the "wow, nice model" posts. In the same time it gives other builders, like me, the so much needed ... to make them finish a model once in a while.

Profesional builders as judges, standardized photographs, trying to find out who photoshopped the pics and who didn't?! Nah. Complicating things will bring AF MOTY to an abrupt end, IMO.
Who would want to organize the whole thing in such a professional way?
Why make it another IPMS contest?

One last question: "influence of expensive photographic equipment should be neutralized"?

How would we achieve that without having judges to see each and every model in person?

What I would change?

The points system. Why? Because it is very difficult to pick 3 builds out of 40 excellent ones based on one picture (this is what I did anyway, because some builds don't have a WIP thread or a detailed presentation thread), be it with more views of the model or not.

I personally felt that it was very difficult to chose only 3 of them and also find the right order for these 3.

Having more points that you can give out as one wishes would have been easier in my case.
Let's say each has a number of 10 points that he can use for is vote. You can give them all for 1 build, give 1 point for 10 different builds, or any other possible combination. This way if there are 2 builds that in someone's opinion are equal than both can be allocated the same number of points.
I believe that this way we would have got less of a difference between the first few and the rest of the pack, a difference that was not realistic IMO.

Hello everybody,

it seems to me as I need to add somthing to this as well. First of all, I entered every time for the last 3 years. I never got a vote. You might say that comparing my work to others this is just. And every year after the small amount of disappointment that I didn´t get a vote - yet again - it appears to me that this was just - yet again.

The best model wins. Period. Of course it is hard to have a curbside win against a rare full detail build up. There is just a lot more modeling that can be shown by such a build. And of course it is some sort of a popularity vote. There are so many things that add into making a model popular. I´d argue that the rarity of the subject as well as the amount of detailing - even a crazy livery - lets a build stand out.

I see the AFMOTY as some sort of showcase. Everybody has the chance to add his build for the year´s best model thread and we all have the chance to see the great models built during the year in one thread. This is how I see the contest and this is what I expect from it. Nothing more. If we want to go into a different direction with this - more regulations, equaling equipment for photography and even more (f.ex. no more Tamiya Spray cans ["they are just to good a modeling product"]) - it would go way to far and way to serious for a bunch of hobbyists as we are.

Just look at the voting turn out this year. 63 casted votes? You have to be kidding... As far as I´m concerned it disappoints me seeing all the work put into gathering a thread for the contest, the voting and than there are 63 members, who take the time to cast their votes. It took me 10 minutes to do so. Sure it was hard, but we have to decide lots of things everyday. So it can not be that tough to make 1st, 2nd and 3rd position. You are not deciding on your kids education or which job you will take. It´s just a contest involving your hobby.

Taking the disappointing number of votes casted, it suprises me that we try to reinvent the whole thing - making it even more complicated. Sure again it´s the setup of the contest, which made it so "unsuccessful" (be aware of the cynicsim, please!). I would argue that we should rather try to achieve a higher amount of participation by encouraging more people into casting their votes, which will not be achieved by endless discussions on the number of votes and an exaggerated amount of (sub)categories.

And a last thing, why I wouldn´t change a thing. We have to keep this contest manageable. Every year we need some people taking their precious time to start the thread, get everybody involved and to count the votes. I doubt that we will have these people doing all that extra forum work with complicated rules which will be just another excuse, why not to enter and not to vote.

Long thread - short ending: keep it the way it is.
I might get a vote some day and you know what? It wouldn´t make a difference! I enjoy this every year - no matter what!


Robert

AFMOTY is what it is, and what it has always been - AF best MODEL of the year, not best engine, not best interior, not best whatever. If we do it like you suggest, it will turn into yet another model contest, conducted over the internet (what could be worse).

AFMOTY should evolve to be more inclusive and foster more participation. Thats the only thing that will save it. It should encourage people, not the other way around. A model contest over the internet is far better than a city specific venue because it attracts competition from around the world.

Assign real judges? We couldn't get people to vote (we got a total of shameful 63 votes TOTAL, and not even all people who entered the contest voted!), and you are talking about assigning people to judge every single model and discuss every one of them, then compare it to others and come up with a winner? Utopia. That will never happen, and never will be objective.

You mean someone with an entry DID vote? Under the current rules that only digs them deeper in a hole! This is exactly the problem. The current rules discourage participation from new members and discourage voting by entrants. I've organized these things before. There are always 5 or 6 highly motivated people that will consider it an honor to be judges. It will also be orders of magnitude more objective with predetermined criteria with which to judge - thats the whole point. How many votes were cast for a car because the subject was cool? Or it was the voters favorite color? We just need to be willing to accept change.

MOTY has been a success for over 5 years in the way it is, now why we are talking about changing the rules suddenly? I simply don't get it. You say that 3/2/1 vote system exaggerates most popular by distributing points unevenly. Why would we want them distributed evenly? Everyone gets a plaque, like IPMS? I simply don't get this mentality, that is exactly why I never go to IPMS events :-)

Even from your perspective as perenial landslide winner I can't see how you can call it a success. You just said participation was "shameful". Its not due to lack of interest, it's due to a stacked outcome every year. I haven't been around five years but I noticed that you had to take an active roll to save it this time. What will happen in 2009? Count me out, I'd rather do anything than that humiliation.

Sorry if all of the above sounds a bit rough, I just strongly feel that AFMOTY is one of the last objective contests held over the net and decided by everyone who wants to cast a vote, and changing its format will ruin it.

I guess we'll just disagree on this one and I also don't consider your comments rough either. I hope no offense on your end either. If you feel like a real Texas shootout I'll be putting the SWB into Modelfiesta 28 at San Antonio, February 21st.:tongue:

Wow, a discussion! Fantastic!!

That's what we want and need here, people. Above all other things, MOTY exists because members (at least some members) want it. It therefore can and should be AS members want it.

My perspective on AFMOTY has changed a lot over during my past few years as a moderator. For now and for the indefinite future during which I'm likely to run it, it will be significantly influenced by my perspective. However, those of you who choose to share your perspectives will also influence MOTY. So, some thoughts:

-MOTY can absolutely be adjusted and improved. It very much should be. It truly should reflect the desires and interests of the participating membership- even if those interests are inherently transitory. If MOTY doesn't reflect that, it is pointless and useless. As an example, I proposed blind voting for the first time this year- and was rather surprised by the vocal and nearly unanimous support it received. If that's what people want, than that is absolutely what we will do. To me, keeping it the same because that's the way it's always been done is utter nonsense. MOTY may or may not be broken, but it can most certainly be improved. And if MOTY is different every year- so what? As long as people are participating and enjoying, nothing else is important.

-This event is run to encourage members participation in car modeling and in this forum. Again, really nothing else is important. If having it be a 'contest' of sorts keeps people interested, then so it shall be. But certainly for me, seeing 40-50 great pics of spectacular models is far more fun and interesting then wondering which will be chosen as best-est. I know I'm not alone in this.

-MOTY is inherently limited- both by the nature of the interwebs, and by the ambitions, abilities, and availabilities of the volunteers who run it. We cannot run an 'ideal' contest. But we can try to make it as best as possible.

So I'm very curious to see opinions here, and encouraged that some of us are interested enough to argue. Now if we can just have some people start throwing things, we'll really be getting somewhere! :tongue:

I saw a number of people comment that voting was rather difficult this year- that many could pick six of their favorite builds, but narrowing it to three and then ordering them seemed arduous. So- should it really be done that way? Does it need to be? Is 3-2-1 even a good system? Would another way be better, and can we agree on one? I'd say it's worth considering.

CrateCruncher, I particularly appreciate you sharing your thoughts- it's great seeing some new ideas from a new member. Unfortunately, I expect most are well beyond the scope of our practical limitations.

MOTY Contest is perhaps misleading. Maybe 'MOTY Pageant', or 'MOTY Exhibition' would be more accurate for this event. Instead of an IPMS show, I think maybe a better example might be an NNL meet. Once a year, we all gather and show off our best works. Sure, there's a people's choice award- but if you're focused on winning or losing, you may just be missing the point. For the vast majority of the members here, it's fun to see a collection of builds from the past year- to remember their favorites, or go back and check out ones they missed.

I'd certainly like MOTY to be the best event it can be, but it must be realistic. We can't do things like eliminate photoshop or high end camera gear. We can't even view all builds objectively and equally. So people's choice seems all we can realistically do- allowing people to vote on whatever criteria they please. And if one 'judge' is only giving points to full detail scratchbuilds while another is only giving points to Ferraris, it's not ever going to be an objective contest. :grinno: And I'm simply not up to the management that some of ideas would require.

Incidentally, a couple years ago we had a contest where we had a panel of objective non-entered judges actually judging build, together with a people's choice contest. Ironically, both contests produced the same results- at a vastly increased effort.

Well im not trying to make any revolutionary change here but i do agree with jano11 with regards to improving the points system. As we know there is a strong competition this year and i definitely had my hard time choosing which entry i should cast my votes for, simply because many are equally high in standards.

But if im allocated with lets say 10 or 15 points to vote for entries, i believe i can do a better job of awarding those other well deserved entries as well. Nevertheless this year's AFMOTY is still a great success in my honest opinion despite of the limited votes we received. :-)

Ro

I'm also a bit confused about where this discussion goes. Generally i have to agree with what Alex posted on the previous page.

There's no need for more categories with the number of entires we had ( And while i don't think that number was bad at all i also thought there should be more. We had more builds after all!?)
I also don't think we need more points that can be spread in a more complicated manner. Heck, many people complained they had trouble deciding about their three favourites. How long would it take to decide about assigning 15 ( or how many ever ) points then. That's rather gonna turn people away i think.
If you check the winners you'll see that those models mostly were popular WIP threads to begin with and to my surprise the Top-10 are evenly spread between street and motorsport.
Ultimately....don't take this too seriously. It's just a popularity vote for a plastic model and not the Nobel prizes or the Oscars...

I'm also a bit confused about where this discussion goes. Generally i have to agree with what Alex posted on the previous page.

There's no need for more categories with the number of entires we had ( And while i don't think that number was bad at all i also thought there should be more. We had more builds after all!?)
I also don't think we need more points that can be spread in a more complicated manner. Heck, many people complained they had trouble deciding about their three favourites. How long would it take to decide about assigning 15 ( or how many ever ) points then. That's rather gonna turn people away i think.
If you check the winners you'll see that those models mostly were popular WIP threads to begin with and to my surprise the Top-10 are evenly spread between street and motorsport.
Ultimately....don't take this too seriously. It's just a popularity vote for a plastic model and not the Nobel prizes or the Oscars...

I understand your point of view but the difficulty that i encounter when casting my votes is because i personally feel that its a pity that i cant vote for other equally outstanding entries due to limitation. Another thing is that with the 15 entitled points, they can choose to use some or all of them, choice is with them. You may be right that it may scare off some voters because it may seem to be a added trouble to them, but on the other hand it may gives them more room n freedom to choose more than one winners of their liking.

But even if nothing is changed at the end of the day, its fine with me, i will be still happy and excited to join the following years' AFMOTY. What i trying to do is to see if theres anything that can be improved, at least to me, the suggestion is worth a try. Also dont take this too seriously too, alright.:tongue:

Ro

MOTY is (at least for me) the scale modeling calender, which comes out at the end of the year - as a retrospective. It triggers memories of threads and I enjoyed reading (many) months ago and also beautiful models that I missed entirely. The added bonus is, that I can pick my favorites and cast a vote. For me it's pure fun and I will always enter "strange" models, whether they get any votes or not. However, the points system should be altered for 2009. Having only three voting possibilities out of 50 entries is a bit unfair. How about this: the number of entries defines how many points one can allocate.

Example for a 20% system: 50 entries are registered. 20% from 50 is 10 - meaning each voter would have 10 points. In keeping with the traditional AFMOTY 3-2-1 system, the voter could give a maximum of three points to his favorite, max. two points to the runner-up and the remaining one point votes to other entries (only one point per entry). This would distribute points more evenly, because every voter could vote for 7-10 models, instead of just three.

Scenario A: 3pt / 2pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt = 7 out of 50 models voted for

Scenario B: 2pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt = 9 out of 50 models voted for

Scenario C: 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt / 1pt = 10 out of 50 models voted for

This would enable every voter to select his ten best list and vote accordingly.

I do agree with Andy (MPWR) that it is quite possible to adjust the MOTY contest. Hey, it's been around for a few years only - I think it's natural that it takes a number of years to evolve to a form most, if not all, members agree with. Ten years down the road it might be the benchmark for online (modeling) contests... who knows? Please give it some time (and participate in strong numbers).

>> keep it simple :uhoh:

Perhaps some of the things I mentioned would be impractical at AF. But who can really predict what might spark an inspired idea or comment from someone else so I feel it's important to toss all kinds of things out there, at least initially. New ideas are cheap, implementation is the hard part.

I will support whatever the members decide to do collectively with MOTY but I think it should be more inclusive to all skill levels and encourage more participation. I hope I haven't sacrificed my reputation in an attempt to improve the MOTY contest. This is a very cool website which I'd like very much to remain a growing part of.

The most important thing that may come out of this is that we recognize we can keep emotion out of it, remain comrades, and engage in a lively format that does not discourage dissenting opinion. By the way, I appreciate the backup Andy. It was getting lonely!

I hope I haven't sacrificed my reputation in an attempt to improve the MOTY contest. This is a very cool website which I'd like very much to remain a growing part of.

Not with me. Just because I didn´t agree with you doesn´t mean that there will be some sort of hardship! Come on, we are all grown-ups (at least to a certain degree).

Example for a 20% system: 50 entries are registered. 20% from 50 is 10 - meaning each voter would have 10 points. In keeping with the traditional AFMOTY 3-2-1 system, the voter could give a maximum of three points to his favorite, max. two points to the runner-up and the remaining one point votes to other entries (only one point per entry). This would distribute points more evenly, because every voter could vote for 7-10 models, instead of just three.

I like that some how. Makes it a little more complex for the "votecollectors". But why not... But be honest everybody! Will it make your decisions easier when you can award your points to 10 modellers instead of 3 modellers?

Modifying the contest for me means that we will need to figure out, why the number of voters was so low. IMO that has nothing to do with the number or the quality of entries. And I´d argue that the number of allocative votes didn´t do it. Even if you just have three votes, you´d rather spread them before not taking part at all, right?

Does that mean that it was the fear of the voters to take part in a popularity contest and it wouldn´t matter if or how they votes because the number of contestants who had a chance to win was limited because of popularity? I doubt that as well!

I´m keen on getting to know what you think about this issue. And again - before we start to spread the possibilities to have more than the arrivated winners (where I can´t see the necessity to do so) - I´d like to make more people vote!


Robert


P.S.: I like the way the discussion is coming along. We will find some sort of agreement which will include the majority of ideas.

I also don't think we need more points that can be spread in a more complicated manner. Heck, many people complained they had trouble deciding about their three favourites.

Well, I had troubles deciding the top 3 out of at least 6 exceptional builds.
It took me 2 days to get it down to my top 10 and another 2 to have a top 6, and than I needed 2 weeks to decide for the top 3, and deciding the order for these 3 was a nightmare.

If I would have had 10 points to give out as I see fit it would have likely have been: 2pts, 2pts, 2pts, 2pts, 1pt, 1pt, rather than the difficult 3, 2, 1!


How long would it take to decide about assigning 15 ( or how many ever ) points then.

IMO, less than the time required to get it sorted from top 10 to top 3.


That's rather gonna turn people away i think.

Why not try it out before burying it?!



If you check the winners you'll see that those models mostly were popular WIP threads to begin with ...

Not the best thing either.
It means that if someone has little time for model building and decides to rather dedicate it to the building of models instead of writing WIP threads, than he will have less chance than those with more time, no matter the quality of build, the technique and innovations he used!


Ultimately....don't take this too seriously. It's just a popularity vote for a plastic model and not the Nobel prizes or the Oscars...

I think that keeping the 3,2,1 points system is what makes it more rigid and also more serious. Give a bit more freedom and it will become much more fun.
That's how I see it.

But be honest everybody! Will it make your decisions easier when you can award your points to 10 modellers instead of 3 modellers?

For me it would have made it easier.

There were very beautiful curbside models entered this time, and I would have given them at least 1 point for the excellent paint finish and cleanliness achieved, but trying to be fair I had to first reward the ones that were more detailed, more complete!

Because we don't get hundreds of entries we do not have several categories, and thus very beautiful models don't get any vote.

I consider myself impartial cause I didn't enter any model, and for example I would have loved to have the possibility to give some points or your TR but I didn't have the possibility.



Modifying the contest for me means that we will need to figure out, why the number of voters was so low.

Unless we can get the people who didn't vote to tell us why they chose to do so, we have only one alternative, try to change things next time and see what happens.


IMO that has nothing to do with the number or the quality of entries. And I´d argue that the number of allocative votes didn´t do it. Even if you just have three votes, you´d rather spread them before not taking part at all, right?

Why? What if someone didn't have the time to ponder and rather than doing something he/she felt wasn't sure about preferred not to influence it.
In voting people have the choice to stay neutral for multiple reasons.


I´m keen on getting to know what you think about this issue. And again - before we start to spread the possibilities to have more than the arrivated winners (where I can´t see the necessity to do so) - I´d like to make more people vote!

No matter the voting system everyone will be a winner if they enter a worthy model, but still everyone has an innate sense of frustration that comes to the fore when they did a very good job but they don't even get a vote!

I do not think that it is normal that some builds got more than 50 points while many worthy builds didn't even get 1 point out of those 378 points that were handed out.



P.S.: I like the way the discussion is coming along. We will find some sort of agreement which will include the majority of ideas.

We've got 10 months at disposal, so we should ultimately be able to justify the Homo Sapiens Sapeins denomination by than! :D

PS: Could we have this thread stickied somewhere near the top of the forum, so that we don't forget about these issues and lose this chance to make a change for the better?

So it seems that there is some real interest in adjusting the voting method for MOTY. It's great to see people's thoughts now with MOTY 08 recently completed.

Hopefully in early November this year we can bring the topic up again, and see where we then.