2001 Winny - No front brakes

My wife went to go out last night and found that it seems like the front brakes on the van are gone. As in they do not stop the car. I had noticed a little bit of this over the last couple months, but didn't think too much of it. However, it's been raining, and the problem has made itself well known.
When she went to stop, the rear brakes locked up and the ABS kicked in. This was at 15mph. We have a gravel side yard and I had moved the van over there a few days ago and noticed that the driver's rear had locked up and skid across the gravel about 2 feet. I'll also notice the rear of the van hunkering down when stopping, telling me that the front brakes aren't doing anything.
I have had time yet to check it out, but was wondering if anyone has any ideas.
The brake light on the dash is working, as it's on when the parking brake is set. It doesn't come on like it's low on fluid or anything like that.
The brakes aren't making any noises or anything like that either. The front pads were replaced about 20k ago, and the rear shoes done 12k ago.

If the pads are good, and there is no air in the lines, then I'd look at the brake hoses... they can swell and prevent the free flow of brake fluid. You can't see it from the outside. You can jack the wheel up and have a helper apply the brake while you watch the calipar, and see if you can turn the wheel with a lug wrench. You might need to bleed the lines and watch that brake fluid flows easily.

However, the fact that both front wheels are acting the same is reason to look elsewhere.

My first thought would be to jack up the front and have someone step on the brake pedal and see if the front wheels stop. From what you are saying they will not. Now, the brake light on the dash will lite for a few different reasons. 1. Low brake fluid 2. Parking brake on. 3. unequal psi in the two brake circuits. I'm thinking #3. Your master cylinder may be failing.

Regards

Dan

To add a little more to the possibilities, you could also have a broken exiter ring. It's a toothed ring that goes around the axles and as the axle spins it spins the ring against the ABS sensors (4 in all, as in 1 per wheel) that tells the ABS Module to kick in when a wheel is not running on par with the others while braking (like a locked wheel).

When I replaced the right front axle on my 2000 LX, advance auto gave me a replacement axle with a different exiter ring on it and when I went to test drive it I could not stop the van at slow speeds... very scary and it felt similar to what you're describing.

tomj76, I thought of swollen lines too, but I think they wouldn't do it at the same time. I would think I'd experience a pull if one was doing it, but not the other.

LeSabre, the reason I mentioned the light was to rule out if the bulb was burnt out. I meant it lights up with the parking brake on, but is out at all other times.

Ed, this problem has slowly cropped up in the last few weeks. Last night was really the first time it's been so obvious due to the wet roads.

I got home today and did a preliminery check for low fluid (no), leaks or signs of wetness (none) and pad life (1/4-3/8"). So I took it to the local shop. My wife and 3 kids ride in it, let a trained tech look at it. It could be bad lines, bad MC, or bad ABS control unit/pump. Hopefully not the latter ($$), though I will have fun bonzai'ing the van through the desert after I get my wife a new car. :)

LeSabre, the reason I mentioned the light was to rule out if the bulb was burnt out. I meant it lights up with the parking brake on, but is out at all other times.

Sorry....I knew that when I started replying to you....then automatic mode kicked in....and my mind wanted to share it's wealth of knowledge about the brake light!


*****though I will have fun bonzai'ing the van through the desert after I get my wife a new car.***** :)

Are you thinking about getting rid of the van?

Regards

Dan

Yes, in a very spectacular way! :)

The shop I took it to called and said the MC was leaking into the booster, the rear wheel cylinders were weeping, but hadn't contaminated the shoes, and the front had been pad slapped and recommended the rotors be turned. No I did not have them turned when I did them, because they didn't need it. They want $1300. I said no.
Brought it home and see no evidence of leaking of the MC anywhere. I don't even see where they did anything to come to that conclusion. The MC and booster are dry as can be, and the fluid level hasn't dropped at all.

Question for those that know. These have dual circuit brakes obviously. Which two wheels does each circuit control? Sometime in the last 30 years or so, I thought they went diagonal, rather than front/rear.
My BIL is a 30 year mechanic, and actually used to maintain a fleet of Windstars, so I talked to him about it this afternoon. Once the question of circuit control came up we both really started questioning the diagnosis. Does ABS play a role?
Another possibility, maybe it's not that the fronts aren't working, but maybe the rears are working too well. The Haynes manual says there's a pressure valve near the fuel filter underneath the van. I wonder if that's a culprit. Of course, the Haynes also says the HCU for the ABS is under the battery, instead of under the driver's butt.

>Which two wheels does each circuit control? Sometime in the last 30 years or so, I thought they went diagonal, rather than front/rear.

That's my understanding too. This webpage might be helpful to you http://www.autozone.com/shopping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c152800ae45a
It seems to show a diagonal arrangement.

>Does ABS play a role?

I'm under the impression that you can take the ABS out of the loop (at least the electronics of it) by pulling it's fuse, which will render the brakes non-ABS. At that point the only affect ABS has is it's "dormant" hardware in the hydralic system.

So that kinda blows my diagnosis out of the water too.
Probing further into the rear brakes working too well, I read that wet shoes (oil/brake fluid contamination) can cause the brakes to become grabby. I'm gonna pull the drums this weekend and take a closer look.

No wet brakes, but the LR cylinder is JUST starting to weep. I ran a quart of Prestone Synthetic DOT 3 through the whole system, and that has cleared up 90% of the problem. I went back and bought new wheel cylinders (both sides) and another quart of brake fluid. Will do that tomorrow. Saved $1200. I'm bummed I don't get to go off-roading. My wife said she wouldn't let me do it anyway. Women! ;)

>The shop I took it to called and said the MC was leaking into the booster, the rear wheel cylinders were weeping, but hadn't contaminated the shoes, and the front had been pad slapped and recommended the rotors be turned. No I did not have them turned when I did them, because they didn't need it. They want $1300.

>Saved $1200.

It's times like these that I'm tempted to revisit the shop, show them the receipts and point out what must either be dishonesty or incompetence... but I never do. However, the real situation in many cases is that the technician isn't making any money on the diagnosis, so he gives it only a minimal amount of effort and just guesses. The problem is that they often lead you to believe that they actually did something to find the problem.

>The shop I took it to called and said the MC was leaking into the booster, the rear wheel cylinders were weeping, but hadn't contaminated the shoes, and the front had been pad slapped and recommended the rotors be turned. No I did not have them turned when I did them, because they didn't need it. They want $1300.

>Saved $1200.

It's times like these that I'm tempted to revisit the shop, show them the receipts and point out what must either be dishonesty or incompetence... but I never do. However, the real situation in many cases is that the technician isn't making any money on the diagnosis, so he gives it only a minimal amount of effort and just guesses. The problem is that they often lead you to believe that they actually did something to find the problem.
Like the shop would really care! Get them in.....change some parts...oh shoot that didn't fix the problem....better change something else! :nono::disappoin:naughty::evillol:Man...(tech thinking....) do I hope that CEL stays off long enough to get this car out of my hair and get on to the next one....:2cents:

I won't go back and say anything, but I won't take either of my cars there ever.
Funny thing I just remembered. When I talked to the guy and said I wasn't going to have the work done, he asked "What are you going to do"? I can't remember if he added "with it"? to the end or not, but it raised some concerns. Two actually. Did he want to know if I just wanted the diagnosis so I could do the work myself (kinda silly if you think about it, though I did post here asking for a diagnosis too), or did he want to offer to "take the vehicle off your hands for a reasonable sum". I've had the latter scenario occur once before, a long time ago.
I got over it pretty quickly, because all I could think of at the moment was what a bitch it was going to be getting the MC/booster out. Good thing I didn't have to.
Oh, my total parts cost for this was $44. Add $2 because I need to buy my wife a new turkey baster. I don't need brake fluid in the Christmas bird (we're having ham, but who needs a baster for ham?).