Windstar Massive Chugging

Hi, I have spent hours on your awsome forum and have gained tons of knowledge, however I need further assistance. I have 2002 Windstar that has been chugging for at least a month. CEL, po302, po303. (3.8, 125km)
Its not...
fuel filter, plugs, wires, did compression test, tested fuel injectors, coil pack, egr valves cleaned out, IAC, MAF. I also removed upper intake cover to inspect insolate bolts (whatever that tsb said) they seemed ok. thats when i cleaned out the egr valves. (I didn't take off the piece to get to the gaskets, just the first covering) I also took the sensor off the cat converter and fired it up. Still ran like crap.
Is there anything else I should check? I'm really at a loss here.

Also CEL flashes from time to time. I guess that means its misfiring. I no longer can drive it cause its really bad. Hope you can help me!!

When does the symptom occur? All the time, sometimes, when accelerating?

All the time!! Idle or accelerating.

just a guess, but the egr valve could be stuck wide open which would cause it run rough or you could have a large vacuum leak. You probably would get a P0401 or P0402 code with the valve being stuck open, but you never know. I am not sure what to do if the valve were stuck open? How would a person test this? About all I can think of is if you remove the valve and plug the hole to the engine. If it gets better, then the valve is the issue. Excess ehaust gas causes the engine to choke out. In a proper working EGR system, the valve does not open at idle, so if you use another vacuum line to force the valve open while idling the engine will stall, but prior to that it will run rough, so if you were stuck somewhere in between, maybe ???

If you have a vacuum leak you might get a P0174 and you would run rough if it was large enough leak. Did you replace the isolator bolt grommets when opened the intake? The gaskets in the manifold body are typically reusable, so they probably were alright to reuse, but the grommets on the bolts are no good to keep unless they were green. The bad ones are black.

Also, I know you said the spark plugs are fine, but I recently experienced the engine running extremely bad and the problem was the spark plugs. Did you change the plugs yourself or did you get someone to do it? If a proper spark plug socket with the rubber internal lining was not used, you may have cracked a sparke plug. This would cause the engine to run like crap and there would be very little power (this is experience talking now). In the end I found the cracked one and replaced all the plugs using a proper socket and then all the wires, after that she runs like a new van. Just a thought of something to go back and double check.

Wilson77

Welcome to AFs!

I take it that you have looked through the post at the top of this forum. I copied the P0300's for you.

P0300 Random cylinder misfire detected that PCM cannot narrow down to a specific cylinder
P0301 Misfire on cylinder 1 (rear bank passenger side) (often caused by clogged EGR ports
P0302 Misfire on cylinder 2 (rear bank middle)
P0303 Misfire on cylinder 3 (rear bank driver's side)
P0304 Misfire on cylinder 4 (front bank passenger side (often caused by clogged EGR ports)
P0305 Misfire on cylinder 5 (front bank middle)
P0306 Misfire on cylinder 6 (front bank driver's side)
Misfire can be caused by a spark issue, spark plug, spark plug wire, coil pack. or by a dirty fuel injector (very common), or nonfunctioning fuel injector
CEL will flash when misfire is happening indicating possible condition that can harm the catalytic converter(s) because if caused by no spark, raw fuel can be entering the catalytic converter.
Do a search on your P030x code for more information.

Have you cleared the codes? How bad were the EGR ports? Were any of them pluged? What year is your Windstar? Both of the codes are coming from the rear bank. There is a link there.

Regards,

Dan

Thanks for the replys. I did have a po174 code for a short time but not any more so never thought about it again. Compression test was fine so I figure I couldn't have a vacuum leak.

Just to answer you....Its a 2002 and egr ports weren't bad at all.
Plugs and wires were changed by a mechanic about 6 wks ago. We were 4hrs away from home and van suddenly started chugging and cel came on. (We pulled off highway to switch drivers, I was pulling back on highway and floored it, my bad, it backfired real loud and immediatly the problem started.) Took it to mechanic who read misfire in #2, changed plugs and wires, left shop and van was 95% better. Cel came back on after couple hrs driving but then went away. A week or so later starting running really rough and cel was back on. Fooled around with it for a few more weeks then started this thread.

I just came back from a local scrap yard who had an "anything you can carry out for $50 sale". Man, I spent 3 hours stripping off all kinds of goodies from a 2002 Windstar. So.....the isolator bolt grommits were green so I took the whole intake and will be replacing my bad bolts with the new ones. I also discovered that the intake should be in three pieces, and my van didn't have the middle one. I was really surprised. I have also taken off my fuel injectors and cleaned them exactly how the forum advises, because I just learnt that even if your meter tells you the injector is ok, that doesn't mean its not clogged. Bad assumption.

Anyways, as soon as I can get everything put back together I'll know if my problem has been fixed and we can go from there!

Wilson77

You are a man after my own heart! I've never had a $50.00 all that you can carry but I have been known to get a lot of useful items from the bone yard.

Do keep us informed on your progress on the van.

Dan

I'm so frustrated!!!! All is back together and still runs just as bad. Took it for a 5min ride, no cel or codes yet. Still running rough with a lack of power. I put a pinhole just before the cat converter to test that and no luck.
Just before all our problems started the transmission was rebuilt, new trs sensor was put on. Could this have anything to do with my problems now. I still have a limited powertrain warranty too.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!

Compression test was fine so I figure I couldn't have a vacuum leak.

Compression doesn't care if you have a vacuum leak.

I put a pinhole just before the cat converter to test that and no luck.

How exactly did you check the exhaust with a pinhole?

I learnt from guys who work in exhaust shops that if you put a pinhole in front of the cat to let it breath, if the lack of power was due to a clogged cat, it would then run smoother. I had no change.

I have also done the propane test in search of vacuum leaks....Nothing!

A pin hole will do nothing. There is a backpressure test that can be done with a thexton test kit that will put a small hole in the pipe with a special screw that a pressure guage can be attatched tlo. After testing a solid screw is used to seal up the hole.

If you think about the diameter of the exhaust and the volume at which it flows a pin hole isn't going to tell you much.

I have had better results either removing the O2's or the cats to see if there is an improvement in performance. Usually start with the O2 if I feel a difference than I go with the the cat.

I actually did take the 02 sensor off the other day and there was no change.
Thanks for all that useful info.

Did you replace the coil pack or inspect it? In your initial post the CEL indicated misfire on #2 & #3 cyl's. Have these codes been set again?
If you have access to a timing light, clamp on to each wire and look for consistent firing. Wouldn't hurt to check fuel pressure either. Special gauge required for that one. Try unplugging the vac hose at the fuel pressure regulator (plug end of hose to prevent vac leak), this will give you a little more fuel pressure. While not common, a couple of people have had a loose crankshaft pulley. If pulley is loose and key is sheared, the iginition timing will be off.

I tested Coil Pack with an ohm meter. Fuel pressure is ok. I don't have access to a timing light. Also thought of evap system as I really smell carbon but don't have proper tools for that.
I think I will finally take it in to be diagnosed. However, I have to wait till codes come up but just took for 30min ride and only codes pending. Its really hard to drive but I guess I'll have to and hope I don't do further damage. I'll keep ya posted.

>I tested Coil Pack with an ohm meter

While this checks that the coil pack is not 'burned out' (the secondary wire has not fused open) it doesn't check other things that can go wrong with a coil.

One very, very common failure of the coil pack (which contains three separate coils, each driving two spark plugs) is a fault that allows the high voltage to arc without going through the spark plug. Sometimes this is a visible crack, but it can be internal to the encapsulated coil and therefor not visible. Sometimes it can be due to dirt on the outside of the coil, especially if the dirt goes under the rubber insulator boot of the spark plug wire.

There are tools for checking that the spark voltage is sufficient. A cheap way of doing it (that will likely get you shocked) is to check for spark on each wire by connecting a good spark plug on each wire while the spark plug is resting on the intake manifold. However, since the Windstar manifold is plastic, you need to find a good metal surface that is connected to the block or cylinder head.

It might be good enough to check with an inductive timing light, assuming a bad coil will not put out enough voltage to trigger the timing light pickup.

If cylinders 2 and 3 (the one's indicated in your trouble codes) are both on the same coil, the chances are very high that it's the coil.

I changed the coil pack. Ran great for a couple of days, now the temp gauge is all over the place. No codes yet.

The manual talks about 2 temp sensors but I think my year only has one. I found one on the backside of the engine near the #3 injector on the intake.
The book said to take the temperature sensor connector off and jump the two ends with a jumper wire, turn the key on, temp gauge should go to Hot. It didn't do that. I tested both wires with a test light to see for power and neither one of them did. Should this be done with the ohm meter, would voltage be too low for test light to read.
How do I test the circuitry between the sensor and the temp gauge?

How do you test the temp sensor when you can't run the vehicle. Can you test it the same as an oxygen sensor by heating it with a propane torch to check the ohm resistance from hot to cold.
Should I be starting a new thread?

Most electrical temperature gauges work by measuring the amount of electrical current flowing through the temperature sensor. The circuit is wired in order that battery current will flow through the meter, then through the sensor to the battery ground. The sensor has a resistance that varies with temperature which causes the current flowing through the meter and sensor to increase as the resistance drops (usually at higher temperatures). The higher current shows as a higher temperature on the gauge. Some gauges are wired to make the deflection of the needle independent of variations in the battery voltage. The gauge has an internal resistance that will limit the absolute maximum current that can flow in the circuit, even if the sensor is totally shorted.

The test described in the manual (jumper the connections to the sensor) will check the circuit by allowing maximum current to flow through the gauge. This suggests that the maximum current will not damage the gauge. If you have a wire with alligator clips on each end you should be able to perform the test.

Although I don't know the details of this circuit, it's very likely that the test light will not glow with the current that can flow through the gauge, but this depends on the particular light bulb you're using and the details of the circuit.

However, you can still perform the test with the test light instead of a jumper wire. if you connect the test light between the two terminals in the connector, the meter should read hot (given that the electrical resistance of the test light is small compared with the sensor at high temperature).

I'd be very careful heating it with a propane torch, since the sensor is not meant to be heated to temps much higher than boiling. Instead, put it in boiling water while checking the resistance.

You most likey have 2 sensors....1 for the gauge, and 1 for the PCM.
The gauge sensor should have just 1 wire, the PCM sensor several.

If you unplug the sensor....you take it to 1 extreme.....OPEN.
When you jumper it, you take it to the other extreme....SHORTED.

If you have the sensor with just 1 wire.....jumper it to GROUND.....a metal part of the vehicle.

The other sensor should be right over the thermostat......these sensors are hard to see with the air intake hose and throttle body in place.

You may just have a loose connection at the sensor (I like to go for the easy/cheap solution first).

Of course....if there is air in the coolant system.....your temperature will be going all over the place.....so check your coolant system.....squeeze the upper radiator hose, remove radiator cap and look (engine COOL), as well as the overflow tank.

Ok, i'm back at it...was away at work.
There is no power on the end of the plug to the temp sensor. (Not the sensor in the maf but the other one.) I stuck a jumper wire on the end of the plug and with the key on the temp guage should go to hot - i got nothing. Book says to repair the circuit? Using a test light, I was testing wires on back of instrument panel for power and interior lights starting flashing and the warning buzzer was going off even with the keys out of ignition.
I'm ready to junk this van. Can anyone help?

Massive chugging, P0303, P0304 (misfire plug 3&4), P0171, P0177. Coil pack! Part that goes on these windstars!

2002 Windstar it's mid engine, just behind the intake; follow the spark plug wires. Very, very easy to change, only need minimum skill on cars. I'd buy the replacement first so you have it right there when you pull the old one. Look at the new one to see where the 7mm hex bolts are. First reach in (A little tight, but arms will fit around both sides of engine) an undo all three hex bolt, it will make it easy to disconnect thin wire connector and plug wire if you can move it around. Then unplug thin wire connector, I had to use needle noise in order to pinch the little tab that released the plug. Move the new coil back there pune plug one at a time, plug into the new immediately to get the righ socket. Pull old coil out when done. Plug in the thin wire connector. Move new coil over mounting screw holes. I had to unplug a few wires one at a time again to get them to lay right in order to get the coil to sit right. Put in hex bolt Very Very lightly! only snug, barly snug, or you'll bust it. Start the car and Vrrroom! runs like it's brand new! I had codes P0303, P0304, (Misfire 3&4 plug) from the free computer read at Auto Zone- along with P0171 & P0172. All codes gone after this coil replace. I don't know why Ford put such a crapy part that fails on there cars. Runs like a champ now. Good luck. Part $65 at auto zone.
Tim O.