would you agree with chevy to make a 2005 chevelle

Most people are saying that they should make a new Chevelle. To those people, please read this post.

You most likely want them to build a Chevelle to get GM back on top of things, "take a big piss on the Mustang", correct? You want a 450 horsepower big block rear wheel drive muscle machine, correct?

People, this can be done without digging up old names. I support the idea of a no frills, affordable 4 seater with a big V8, really I do. But please, please do not call it the Chevelle. The Chevelle was a classic muscle car from the 60's and 70's with, for the most part a great heritage. The name "Chevelle" on a modern muscle car just wouldn't be right. Why does a car have to be called the Chevelle to be successful? This is what GM needs to recognize.

General Motors seems to be more focused on producing cars with coined names and lots of fancy badges, but they do not truly represent their predecesors. Even if the Monte Carlo SS still hauled ass like it used to, it is NOT a real Monte Carlo SS. Even if they built the Chevelle to haul ass like it used to, it would NOT be a true Chevelle. And if they built the Chevelle to be a terrible excuse for a great car (MCSS, Impala etc.)...well, don't even get me started on how that would go over.

The way I see it, GM needs to focus on building great new cars with great new names, not FWD grocery getters with old names. :2cents:

That is a very good point, but what if they were to make them exactly as were before? same chasis, body, interior, and all. what would you think of that?

Building a car exactly like an old Chevelle would be almost as bad as using the Chevelle nameplate on a completely new car. The thing I am saying is that Chevrolet can build a true muscle car without it having anything to do with the Chevelle. Why don't they start a new legend instead of bringing back an old one? It just seems unnecessary to me.

I would agree but I think GM is conduction a secret test look at the new gto the car was a bad as classic and they brought it back to see what kind of reaction it would get in my opinion if that car does well and I mean very well the chevelle will make a return the problem is though the times have changed the car (with all options new) will end up being over priced and no one will buy them just like opinion whats going to happen to the Gto its all on that car and the I feel the 05 mustangs sales will also determine if this legend of a car will travel through time

I wouldnt mind but they always screw up new cars. Look at the novas and how they turned out. Look at how ugly the malibu is now. I think that the mustangs got retarded looking but I do like the 05. Corvettes are no where as cool as they were. The Camaro is horrible, so is the Trans Am. I do like the new GTO though, I work at a pontiac dealer and awe man that thing sounds sweet. You know malibus looked the same as chevelles back in the day that would be funny if they made a new chevelle that looked exactly like the new malibu. Oh and I heard from a site that they might bring the el camino back, I hope thats bull cause if they ever do the should die. That was probably the ugliest car ever created and no one farms anymore so its not really practical anymore. No matter what that car will always be ugly. Has anyone every noticed how it looks like a mullet??

I think the el camino is an alright car (certin years that is) with aftermarket support the car looks cool And I would not be supprised if they did bring it back

That was probably the ugliest car ever created and no one farms anymore so its not really practical anymore. No matter what that car will always be ugly. Has anyone every noticed how it looks like a mullet??

No one farms anymore? What the HELL are you talking about?

And let's just pretend, just for a second, that nobody does farm..this makes the El Camino impractical HOW? Buddy, you do not buy an El Camino 'cause it has a truck box on the back. :rolleyes:

And if you think it was the ugliest car ever, why the hell are you in the Chevelle forums?? :banghead:

calm down tiger!

Man, don't hate on the new Malibu. That's the car that's gonna put GM back in the race for best-selling midsize sedan. Hell, I'd buy one if I were shopping for a new family sedan right now; it gets more mpg than my old V6 Camry and is considerably more powerful too.

I dont thinks he is hating on the car but fact that it is using the malibu name thats all in my opinion they should have just changed the name of the car thats all I think the semi-hatch version is ok looking but for sure not as good as the old ones ..... lets bring some new names GM!!!

I would say yes, if chevrolet could make it as cool as it used to. i would hate to have the chevelle name ruined by a shitty come back like the 2005 GTO. That car blows. So if they can make it cool, and fater than the Z06, i would be happy.

They would never make an affordable muscle car faster than the Z06..that car is (well, WAS) Chevrolet's flagship model. Making a new model that is faster than it for considerably less money would just kill it.

OH MY GOD ALL OF YOU GUYS THAT ARE SAYING NO WHATS WRONG WITH YOU! MAN PONTIAC EVEN IS BRINGING OUT A NEW MUSCLE CAR THE GTO MAN CHEVYS GOTTA DO SOMTHING AND CHEVELLE I THINK IS IT ALL YOU GUYS THAT SAY NO NEED TO GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE

Did you say The GTO.....You got to be kidding...That piece of :loser:
That new GTO has nothing to do with the muscle car.
If they bring the Chevelle like that....man just...don't.
I've seen the new Chevelle a private company is making (They will make less than 1000 of this model - based on the 70 Chevelle SS)...it looks good in the rendering and looks OK in the shop building it but once they rolled it out in the street....I know they can do better than that.
If they make it right I'm all for it!!!!!!!! I have a 1968 SS and a 1971 SS they are bitching!!!!!

A new chevelle, no way, they wouldn't get it right. If they made a new 2005, they would have to keep the old body style and work with that. But knowing the new cars, they would make it front wheel drive.... I would be insulted!

chevy better do something in a hurry or their going to go down with the rest of the ship like they allready have with the last of the new cameros. They need to make a modern version of the 69 z28
or a 70 ss 454 chevelle no aluminum crap Ls 1 or z06 motors big block power only and no aussie style
body types like the new gto it looks dumb. Let's make our own body lines like we used to in the old days......

im sure they will think of something

For the record,the new chevelle wouldnt be a FWD,it would be RWD like the new 400HP GTO is.It would also come with 4 wheel disk brakes as a standard,a 6 speed standard optional,and hopefully red and black leather bucket seats like the GTO i test drove.In comparison to other new production cars,it may be equivalent in superiority,just like the old chevelles were compared to other cars of the same time period.it could very well be a modern representation of what you guys own.Would you guys like them to kill the name,or continue it,as a superior quality street machine.Most people my age dont know what a chevelle is about,nor care,but if they new sombody with a new chevelle,and it kicked major ass,it may give you guys more respect from a younger crowd

i do beleive that it should be brought back but it needs to be more sporty than the pictures that are posted.

Chevy needs to focus on a full frame,RWD car with a 400 in it.not only that but they need to get away from the plastic parts,and the high cost.Put some Hand crank windows,and get rid of all the features that add extra cost and weight.Make it back into a true muscle car,and not some half breed luxury sport.

crank windows???? for some reason I think thats going to be in style again one day for retro style cars

i think electric windows are for girl cars.i can roll my own window up and down

Sorry if i offend you guys but i drive a truck with electric windows and i would be very annoyed to buy anything, new, with crank style windows. would you guys also like a 2 channel radio with and 8 track player? I mean come on you can keep costs low w/o gettin rid of things like a cd player and power windows. if i can push a button and have my window down in 2 seconds while not even loosing focus, why in the world would you wanna sit there and crank on a handle while ur tryin to drive?

I say no, because im afraid they would come out with something that looked like the new GTO and the look of the old should stay that way.

Most people my age dont know what a chevelle is about,nor care,but if they new sombody with a new chevelle,and it kicked major ass,it may give you guys more respect from a younger crowd


Your younger crowd may not know what a chevelle is or stands for, nor respect it, but it you ever get the chance to line up with a '70 Chevelle SS with 454...

after it spanks your ass, you'll know all you need to. :grinno:

hell yeah i helped build my boss's 70'ss 454 Chevelle cloner,from the ground up.Its so fast its stupid...

i hate electric windows.to each his own thats what i say.Electric windows break and add weight too.Give me a nice old fashoned chrome hand crank for my window.I hate airbags,ABS brakes,and idiot lights too.I cover those stupid idiot lights with black tape,and digital dashes suck too IMO.Remember the days when you knew the leadlights was off,cause you couldnt see the dash?Not with a digital dash.
Its all useless junk,made for whimps who need a light to tell them when the windshield washer fluid need replaced...ugh,sry.

this is what my car says"chigga chigga chiggavroooom thump thudda thump thump thudda thump "

here is what a new car says "click,"ding ding ding""bzzzzz"click"ding ding ding*chigga chigga Vroommmmmmmmmmmmmmm*ding ding ding*vrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*buzz*"ding ding ding"

As for the younger crowd commentary,some of us *younger crowdsmen* are building classic chevys to put food on the table,such as your 454 chevelles,and 67SS camaros ect.and very much know and enjoy sharing part of such a legacy and heritage.And i even think some of these newer recycled milk jug/beer can cars are shaping up to be.

I'd say........ "Gidderdone!"
But Chevy wont follow through without overpricing it threw the roof! Why can't the look at ford with the new Mudstain? Priced from resonable to skys the limit for options.......

There is a 2004 Chevelle known as the HRSS 454. I believe they are built by Imagine Motorsports out of the Northwestern U.S. or Canada. It's an awesome car. Could use tweaks but everybody has that opinion about every car! That's why this hobby ROCKS! With the $35K price tag trying to purchase Chevelle rights would be astronomical.

Ahhh hotrod_chevyz,, a man after my own heart!

Who needs power windows, airbags, a/c, automatic tranmissions, thousand dollar stereos, etc.?!

Give me a classic car with a 4 speed, no air conditioning, manual windows and a wild big block,, that I can work on myself! Id rather listen to a rumpity engine than a stereo anyhow!

Sure all the stuff could be optional for those who feel they need it. Not me,, strip mine down please!

I agree they should produce it as long as it's V-8 rear wheel drive, and not some cookie cutter foriegn car look alike P.O.S. They'd better not disgrace the Chevelle name as they're done with others...Impala, Nova, SS(Cavilier??),Malibu. I'm sick of car companies using re-hashed B.S. to sell cars that are supposed to vaguely remind someone of a muscle car. Just my 2 cents, oh how about a car someone can afford, perhaps $25,000? Dumb down the technology and make it affordable. Later

Dave

I agree they should produce it as long as it's V-8 rear wheel drive, and not some cookie cutter foriegn car look alike P.O.S. They'd better not disgrace the Chevelle name as they're done with others...Impala, Nova, SS(Cavilier??),Malibu. I'm sick of car companies using re-hashed B.S. to sell cars that are supposed to vaguely remind someone of a muscle car. Just my 2 cents, oh how about a car someone can afford, perhaps $25,000? Dumb down the technology and make it affordable. Later

Dave

Thats exactly right..if they change it to today's standard of a "muscle car" then it's not worth the disgracing the Chevelle name

I work in the AAI/Ford plant that makes the Ford Mustange this car is all the rage and sales are in flight.Yes I own all chevey products 69 chevelle included. YES! I think GM should make the chevelle again and keep it a rear wheel drive. I here truck drivers saying that they think the Mustange is hot but they would like a chevelle like the old ones and that GM is lagging behind! What a shame.

Of course they should make bring back the chevelle. They just have to make sure that they dont screw it up. If they do it right they can have a fast car with a lot of supporters. They just have to make sure its priced around the mustang, and that it can beat the crap out of any ford or rice burner around the same price

Yes they should only if they can get it close to something classic. Like ford did with their latest mustang. I am not a ford guy, but they did good on that decision. Just make it rear wheel drive and Id put my own Blown V-8 in it, hehe.

I cant stand to go to a car hop or a cruise-in or a graffitti night when you see a bunch of nimrods with their bone stock 2005 corvette-Big deal. Its got to be a classic to be there or look like one. So they better make it look like one for me to buy. Like the look of the possiable late 60's camero they may do. Id buy that!

I would say NO! Look at what happened to the last Pontiac GTO, what a joke! Let the Chevelle have it's rich history!

They shouldn't bother making a 2005 Chevelle. Bottom line is it won't really be a muscle car and it will cost like $40,000. It'll be some computer programmed, fiel injected crap like everything else out there. The Malibu has been ruined, the Charger's been ruined, the Mustang's been ruined. Everyone does it and all of them suck. If you want a muscle car, find a 60's, 70's and maybe up to 81 of something cool.

the Mustang's been ruined.

How?

check this link

http://www.motorsportscenter.com/article_462.shtml

The 2005 Mustang GT's 4.6 liter V-8 weighs 75 pounds less than the previous Mustang GT's 4.6 liter V-8 thanks to an aluminum block instead of an iron block.

The new Mustang convertible's chassis has more than twice the torsional stiffness of the 2004 Mustang convertible.

The new convertible was designed alongside the new coupe.

Car & Driver ranked its rigidity on par with a BMW 3 series convertible.

GT convertible shown with optional 18 inch wheels

http://www.netcarshow.com/ford/2005-mustang_gt_convertible/1024x768/wallpaper_16.jpg

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0504_mustang01_l.jpg

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0504_mustang06_z.jpg

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/2570-10-1.jpg

http://www.motorsportscenter.com/uploads/05mustang_chassis.jpg

The new Mustang did very will in the GS class of Grand-Am Cup road racing this year.

check these links

http://www.grandamerican.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5227

http://www.grandamerican.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5269

http://www.grandamerican.com/News/Article.asp?ID=5303

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/grandcup/2005/dt/grandcup-2005-dt-jt-0108.jpg

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/grandcup/2005/dt/grandcup-2005-dt-jt-0109.jpg

http://motorsport.com/photos/grandcup/2005/tr/grandcup-2005-tr-eg-0228.jpg

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/2971-20-1.jpg

http://www.trippcat.com/albums/Driving_Event_Photos/VIR/VIR_Oct_2005/GAC_Favorites/IMG_7310.JPG

it would be nice if they could do this.... I would love to find a new car, lots of power, for almost dirt cheap. I mean, in 1969, a fully loaded Z28 Camaro cost a little over 5 grand..... so, going by those guidelines, it would be nice to see a muscle car with lots of power for around 20,000 - 26,000.

Safety standards, emissions, other regulations, and what not drive up the costs of cars today.

I doubt the new 505 hp LS7 from the new aluminum Corvette Z06 will find its way into a new Chevy coupe as the new LS7 is hand-built.

check these articles about the LS7

LS7 link one (http://superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/completebuilds_testing/0509sc_assembly/)

LS7 link two (http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0507phr_gm/)

Al Tomich assembling an LS7

http://www.theraceforum.com/images/forum/2930-61-1.jpg

http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0507phr_gm_19_z.jpg

http://superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/completebuilds_testing/0509sc_assembly_06_z.jpg

check these links

Corvette C6 Z06 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=420611)

Corvette C6 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=189984)

Dodge is going to make a new Challenger

check this link

New Dodge Challenger (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=440173)

GM has revived plans for rwd cars.

check this link

RWD (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=456408)

i say they should under some conditions, one, they look like the originals, 2 they drive like the originals, and 3, they are under 13,000. (like a caviler)http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/2cents.gif

The Chevy Cavalier is no longer built. The new Cobalt, a vast improvement, has replaced it and it starts at $14,490.

I actually think that GTO re-skin to a Chevelle was quite ugly, but the 2001 impala was "very close"
to capturing the 70 Chevelle "look" -- notice the dual circular headlights, the split grille and the rear
quarter window --- That's a Chevelle -- also notice the sharp fender flares and squared openings.
Take that body and put it on a CTS-V chassis and the Chevelle is reborn.

The new Impala is also ugly -- looks too much like a Altima/Camry to me.

Leaked Camaro concept pics

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/2006/Q1/162006144750.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Truckmuddr/Cars/CamaroChopped.jpg

I saw the new Impala at the L.A. Auto Show and it had better fit and finish than the previous one.

being 2005 is over, my answer is a solid no. But they will be remaking the 67-69 camero body style in 2009. I have a feelin it may debut before that though. They just showed the prototype at the Detroit auto show and it is well done at around a projected $30,000.00.

All I can say is that with $30K, my '70 (w/402) Chevelle's cracked and fading patina, flaking chrome, cracked and missing rubberware, and rusting wheelwells could get a serious makeover. LOL :)

Heck, I'd even have enough cash left over to add EFI to the 396, so I don't have to tweak the Holley everytime the weather changes. :)

The spirit of the "musclecar" is too much engine in a cheap package -- Honda has figured this out, it's totally amazing what overhead cams and forced induction (turbo/blower) and electronics can do for four cylinders with 1/2 pint bores and front wheel drive -- just imagine what it can do for 8 coffee-can bores.

One of the "hottest" FWD compacts I've ever owned was a 92 Cavailer Wagon with the 2.8L V6 (I think it had the Z-24 tune) --- That's what we're talking about nowadays. Big engine, little car, hold on!

I don't want a factory built, limited edition, only 1000 built, collector car to sit in my garage under lock and key -- I want an everyday driver that looks good, sounds good, starts every morning, and has the potential to be fun to drive, even when loaded and going uphil. :)

Sure but don't rush it and trash it like they did the new camaro......


Hate to say it, but whoever did the new mustang , did it right......

Check this link

New Camaro concept (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=503817)

Chevy may make a rwd Impala by 2009.

The Camaro concept's 400 hp LS2 has cylinder-deactivation that gives it 30 mpg on the highway.

Yes most definetly yes.In fact I wrote a letter to Chevrolet last year giving them reasons and suggestions.
There is talk about bringing back the Camaro with the 400 hp vette engine.
We need something to whip the Mustang with!
ronvb

i dropped a thread much like this one. and one of the guys said it best, and i will paraphrase. no chevelle shouldnt be remade for 2 reasons. 1 the chevelle name has a crap load to uphold. i mean imagine if people didnt like it, that would suck. and 2 true my dad the home garage mechanic wont be able to go out in the grage with his sons and work on it. i mean up to the early 90's people with a little electronic knowhow could do SOME stuff. but we are talking no where as much those sitting in the fender, plenty of room to get that wrench on, smoke them tires, 454 big block that makes you shake all over cuz of the power it exudes. <and it aint even runnin yet. if chevy follows through they should test the water with something small like the vega. i would not drop something so heavy of a namesake as camaro onto thier first retro styled car. if something doesnt go well with the camaro, the name will be blemished for a long long time. but you put a vega out there run the same 2.0 supercharged or 2.4 i4 as the cobalt and make it camaroeske looking (like the best looking vega years) make it rear drive, and if chevy screws up, they can learn from it and not have to scrap a good name for it. ( no offence to vega fans , and im one of them)

I hear that zx2 :)

I think Chevy will never live down that Corolla-Nova -- Yuck -- However, my lil bro wrapped one around a tree and walked away -- the Nova wasn't so lucky -- Everyone was happy :).

The problem with bringing back the Camaro and 'Bird is that they'll have to come out lookin and performing like a Vette -- It would be a cryin shame if the new Camaro, whatever it looks like, can get owned by a bone stock Civic or Accord on the street. Also, the longer their hyatus, the more time the aftermarket will take to get all the go-fast look-good stuff on the market, I would expect them to be really cautious.

So, that said, I'd say no Chevelle -- Unless the tree huggas let the automakers build fire breathers again -- I've spent way too much hard earned cash getting "modern" automotive electronics serviced.

Strangely enough, trucks are now the closest things to "musclecars" on the street -- wonder if that's why everyone wants one? I just wonder why they have such a high ride height [for the street]... makes em look goofy, even with giant "rims" they just got too much "gap."

Form follows function comes to mind... :)

GM is in trouble, big trouble. There are a lot of reasons, but one big reason is that they do not build cars people want to buy. Ford has the same problem (but who really cares about Ford?) Look at Chrysler - they have some great looking cars with old nameplates. My dad bought a Malibu SS the first year it was out, one of only 2 new cars he ever bought (the other was a 64 Riviera.) It was an affordable car but still practical for a family and not too expensive. Solidly built, could last forever. Still a lot of possibility for performance for those who wanted.

Build it right and it could be great. But take back the Malibu designation from that little thing they got it on now.

but building it right is exactly gm's problem. chevelles are like the god chevy in which the nova, camaro, and vette, all kneel to. maybe not performance but what chevelles were built to do, it did, and it did it well. the pony cars (which i include the nova in) all have their glory spots, because they were built for different reasons. but you drop the phrase 454 big block chevelle, and every one who knows what it is goes oooooohhhhhhhh. doesnt matter if you are a ford guy , or dodge. just the same when you hear 440 hemi charger, or 351 cleveland mustang (boss). if you have stepped into any of these cars and taken a turn (the only one i havnt is the charger) you know just what kind of beast they are. and i think that is why chevy is having such a problem building it, because they want it to live up to the name chevelle and not fall from grace like the malibu.

personally though i think gm needs to make a better entry car then the aveo. the cavalier was due for a face lift, but they never should have killed it because look how many are out there.

Can someone give me some advice to my question in forum

"68 chevelle please help!"

Yes of course. But it should have that late '60s ish look and an aluminum big block like the SSR. Perhaps a 427 or 454 just to use the same cubes as the late '60s. To bring back the reputation.:wink:

No they shouldnt build it .... After 24 yrs. w/ GM I have learned that GM cant build " gotta have " vehicles while the market still wants them and when they do get around to it they dont get near right.


zx2guy ... when did Chrysler build a 440 Hemi ?

And 66Chevelle ... Chevy puts an alum. BB in the SSR ???????

oops... i was thinking of 2 different motors, and i didnt seperate them. my bad

I was just thinking about this the other day. Not only could they make a new Chevelle SS but actually build a high tech 454 that gets good gas mileage.

Depends on what model the went for and how it was done. I hated the t-bird, love the Mustang. What model woul you go after? 66? 70?

Can someone give me some advice to my question in forum

"68 chevelle please help!"

What was the question?

Why even try to build another chevelle...Everybody would just find a reason to complain about it.

Some geek in a moth eaten 1970's star trek outfit would say "well thats not exactly".........Get over it if they make a new one its going to be way better than the old one. Just like the new underestimated GTO. Its not what it looks like its what it has on the inside that counts.

I love the old "1970 SS Chevelles" ive had the honor of working at a shop where working on them was a daily thing. But get a clue most of them are rusted out busted out former muscle cars, some of wich are so unsafe now they dont deserve to be on the road still.. HISTORY!

Cancer has just about eaten away a piece of history and todays younger crowd needs a taste of what CHEVELLE means. A lime green 70's rust bucket with rotted out fenders and smoke coming out of the tail pipe isnt going to impress people ages 18-30. They want looks/comfort/modern style/ ect...

Since GM hasnt made a "real" effort to bring back any of these flagships, this young impressionable crowd is drifting over to the new mustangs with the 5 speed and the 4.6's.

Another FORD fan born because a bunch of whining about long dead "history", and how the new one needs to be like the old ones.

by hotrod chevyz, I love the old "1970 SS Chevelles" ive had the honor of working at a shop where working on them was a daily thing. But get a clue most of them are rusted out busted out former muscle cars, some of wich are so unsafe now they dont deserve to be on the road still.. HISTORY!

Cancer has just about eaten away a piece of history and todays younger crowd needs a taste of what CHEVELLE means. A lime green 70's rust bucket with rotted out fenders and smoke coming out of the tail pipe isnt going to impress people ages 18-30. They want looks/comfort/modern style/ ect...

HC you need to go to some of the cruise nights I have this summer. Don't see any rust there. And the only smoke you see is from rubber.:eek:

Wow, 8 pages of conversation spanning over three years! Well first off, we don't own the name, GM does, and if they want to build a Chevelle I say more power to them.

It's 2006, not 1966, so I don't expect a new Chevelle to be just like mine (a 64 SS.) I would expect it to be a rear wheel drive family size vehicle that could be had as a utilitarian family vehicle, and more upscale version, and a performance oriented (or at least theamed) vehicle that raises the pulse a bit.

Chevy needs to build cars that get people excited about buying a car, not just something to compete with Honda/Toyota/Nissan. Go back and look at where the '64 Chevelle was positioned, look at the ads, and look at the reviews. It was a car that fit between the big Impala and the economy Chevy II.

Sure it grew into a performance machine, but along with those performance machines they sold plenty of 6 cyl and small V8 Chevelles, and 4 doors too.

Yea, build it, but give it Chevy value, solid build and engineering, and style.

They need to build something GOOD might as well name it after a good car.

Don't know why this thread was brought up again But it won't be any longer.
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