98 3.8 rough idle missing? tried many things :(

Hi all, I have been reading many of the posts and I am still having trouble with my Windstar which has 320,000 km. I have had it for 1 year.

I have had a problem with the check engine light being on and and have tried many fixes with limited success.

as of now I am getting the engine light flashing quite often (which I understand to be a result of the engine getting a misfire.)

Here is what I have done so far....

one of the butterfly valve linkages lost the white plastic sleeve so it became un hooked, I put another in and it now works fine as it should, I did the test of with the engine running take off one of the vacumm hoses from the butterfly valve and hold my thumb on hose and watched as the other valve moved and then switch valves and do the same test, it all passed.

Next I checked all of the vacumm hose and found a hole in the pcv valve hose which I replaced (but I did not change the pcv valve, it is loose and seems ok)

on the DEPF sensor one of the vacumm hoses going to the DEPF had a cut in it I replaced the hose (and also got another sensor from the wrekers and switched it)

Put in new Plugs and new wires and changed the Fuel filter (no change)

brought the van to a garage and they did a code reading test and told me that cyl #4 had an injector problem, after reading a bunch of threads on that issue I was positive that the problem was that my egr ports were plugged.

I then added Lucas injector cleaner to the next 2 tanks of gas, no change

so today I took of the intake plenum and scraped and cleaned both the plenum and the egr ports (5 of 6 ports were plugged) and intakes, I then put the intake back on and then also added Sea Foam through the Brake booster with the van running, and after waiting the 20 minutes restarted the van (only had white exaust for a few seconds, I expected more) then ran the van on the highway for 20 km and the light came back on and flashing again :(

after reading some more threads it was suggested the fuel pump could be the problem so I bought a fuel pressure tester and it passed 40 psi with key on 30 psi (should be 28-45 psi) with running with vacumm hose connected and 40 psi (should be 28-45 psi) with hose disconnected, so I would think the fuel pump is ok

my next step will be to try the Berryman's B12 Cleaner, (I have heard that one is the best to use)

Other than that I am now stuck, did I miss something? what should I check next?

Thanks in advance for any help I get here.
Fred

Exactly what codes are you getting?

as far as the codes when this all first started it was the PO171 System too lean Bank 1 and PO174 to lean bank 2 and also PO733 Gear 3 incorrect Raio, (which I had a part replace at the transmission shop to fix the PO733)

but that was a few months back I am not sure which code the garage got when they said my #4 injector was sticking.

I hear that the injectors themselves do not fail that often.

I should maybe get the codes checked again to be sure.

You are correct, the injectors do not fail often....HOWEVER, they DO built up dirt over the spray end.
I have chased my tail more than once over this....and have found that MANY fuel system cleaners do not solve the problem.
I HAVE found that the Berryman's B-12 Chemtool DOES work.......although I have had to treat a few consecutive tanks of gasoline to do the job.

From what your shop found.....I would put the Berryman's in.
My local shop directed me to the Berryman's, as they have had a lot of good results with it as well.
Fortunately......it is one of the less expensive of the MANY fuel system cleaners out there.
I use the Berryman's in the metal can.

so from this page
http://www.berrymanproducts.com/Default.aspx?tabid=140
do you suggest for me the B-12 CHEMTOOL® CARBURETOR CLEANER / POUR IN... even though mine is fuel injected?

or do you mean the
B-12 CHEMTOOL®
PREMIUM GAS TREATMENT
in the aluminum can?

I would get the coil tested and inspected for cracks which may be leading to arching.

My father made the same suggestion to me today, I am going to go look under the hood tonight to see if I see any arching.

I spent all day today trying to find the B-12 Chemtool line here in Canada with no luck at all (1 poster in another thread said Walmart , butthe one here does not carry it. any ideas who sells it in Canada (Toronto area)?

also today before I went out I reset the computer by taking off the battery terminals and touching them tgether for 30 seconds.
When I started it cold it ran fine for about 5 or 10 minutes but when it got to operating temp it began sputtering again, so I guess I can eliminate that the problem is a plug or a wire. (but maybe the coil?)

Any sensors that could be a problem only when the engine warms up? can the injector have problems at operating temp?
fred

As the hose-ends and hose connectors get old, leaking is not uncommon. You can use some petroleum jelly to lube them up for better sealing. Don't overlook the PCV valve grommet and hose. Any vacuum leak (after the MAF sensor) can cause your symptoms.

A PCV valve being "loose" is not sufficient to prove that its OK. Its a more complicated device than that. I would recommend a (Ford) replacement since you had clogged egr jets.

I am going to get a new pcv valve and gromet in the morning, since that could be a cheap fix, I am also going to clean the maf sensor (I am a bit worried since before I sprayed throttle body cleaner into the air intake and I have now read that you should not use that because it can damage the maf sensor, I read that from Radio Shack the best thing for cleaning maf sensors is spray tuner cleaner, #64-4315. edit... I since found out that this cleaner leaves a residue so I do not suggest it.

Question... when I took out the maf sensor there are 2 hex screws holding it in place but one of the screw heads has been covered with a hard plastic sealer???? I tried scraping it off with a knife but it is very tough, how do I get that off?

Oh and another thing, when I took the air intake off at the plenum there was some oil in where the hose clamp attaches to the plenum, does this mean anything?

after I do those 2 things if no change I will then test the coil pack

I do not think I mentioned this before, but I should say that not only is the idle rough but also at city driving speeds the van is also missing and I can feel the engine jerking a bit in the stearing wheel, it does get better at highway speeds but I can still get the engine light flashing every so often as well as at city speeds

Oh and another thing, when I took the air intake off at the plenum there was some oil in where the hose clamp attaches to the plenum, does this mean anything?

On my 99 when I got it, I had a good deal of oil in there as well (air filter was soaked pretty much with it). That led me to discover the issue with the valve covers on the 99's-01's. I'm not sure if any of the 98's had that issue or not, but that was part of the reason I had so much oil up in the upper intake. When we took the plenum apart there were pools of oil over each bolt and the EGR ports were almost completely blocked. It was a mess cleaning everything up.

Not sure if that helps you, but you may wanna check the valve cover for the same issue as the 99's to make sure that isn't causing the excessive oil to get up into the plenum. Heres the link:

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

I use the "carborator" version..........most part stores will have it......but most will only have 1-3 versions of the product.

As far as oil in the air intake by the throttle body, this is also normal.....comes from the PCV line.
A few drops come out each time you shut down the motor.
The '98 does not have the valve cover issue......it is a matter of the location of the PCV line relative to the throttle body.....some oil will develop in the upper intake manifold from the vapors.....and runs back out when the motor is not running.


For cleaning the MAF.....non-residue electronic cleaner is what you need to use.
Some "tunner cleaners" leave a residue that is supposed to prevent oxidation.....don't know if they still do that anymore......but you will need to carefully read the label.
It should state that it leaves no residue.
I would NOT disassemble the MAF.......just spray the cleaner in the hole at one end of the cross bar.....while holding the assembly so that the fluid will flow through the cross bar and out the hole at the other end.....on the other side.
So you are holding the MAF unit so that you are looking down into it.......angled so that the hole facing you is uphill from the hole that points away from you.
Here is a link to a picture showing this
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1350023782011220610bXQOkA

There is also a Input Air Temperature Sensor in the flex hose that you can clean with the same non-residue electronic cleaner.....shown in this picture
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1350063274011220610OBlGGb

Of course you could have a coil pack issue, but I was focusing on the diagnosis that the mechanic gave you regarding the #4 fuel injector......which would call for the fuel system cleaner.
This is a link to a picture of the spray end of one of my fuel injectors.....with the "end cap" removed......
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1345076747011220610JjMqaP

The previous picture to this one shows the dirt over the end........and it was worse when I removed it.

Thanks defient79, I do know that the 99-03's had a different issue with the valve cover that was not effecting the 98's, but I did have the clogged egr ports which I cleaned on Saturday took a good couple of hours, I wish that would of fixed my problem but I guess I have multiple issues.

@ wiswind
My maf sensor looks clean as does the temp sensor but maybe they have a coating on them from when I used throttle body cleaner, I will do as you suggest and spray into the tube rather than take the maf out of its holding spot.

I have read in some threads that it is ok to use a Q-tip and others say do not...thoughts?

I am going out now to get the pcv parts and the cleaner I will report back later today.

edit... Oh regarding the injectors is there much work to take them out?, does the plenum have to be removed?

I appreciate the help so far as with out you guys I would of given up by now.

I would only use the spray.....best not to touch the sensor.

I would also get 3 cans of the Berryman's....and treat the next 3 tanks of gasoline.
After they are cleaned up......you should only need to treat a tank a couple times a year (depending upon how much driving you do).

Hi Derffred - I too have the 98 model Windstar and have had all of the issues you describe. Some things I would say at this stage:
You must get the OBDII codes read each time after you make a change and run the engine. My way out of numerous problems came as a result of the codes having changed.
You say you changed the DPFE sensor for one you got from a wrecker but unless it is the newer type i.e black plastic body rather than the original aluminum you may have been no better off.
You seem to have tracked and fixed any vacuum leaks around the engine and this is the no.1 source for the 171/4 codes. You've had the cowl holding the wiper motor off of course and have checked all the vacuum connections after you removed and refitted the plenum also the hose to the brake booster.
Next I'd have a good look at the spark plugs and wires and the coil pack for the source of a misfire. Especially check #4 spark plug, usually the cyl with the only unblocked EGR port, for any green tinges indicating a leaking lower manifold gasket which was one of my fixes. Have you noticed any loss of coolant over time? You could be ready for new plugs anyway and the folks on here recommend the Autolite double platinum.
The rule is if you can to change/fix one thing, run the engine / test drive and read the codes and look on here for the diagnosis. I'll be happy to share my experience with the 98 model.

I have changed the pcv valve and gromet, and I bought specific MAF sensor cleaner and cleaned that and the tem p sensor too.

took the van out for a run and again it seemed to run ok for 5 or 6 minutes and then the engine light flashed on off again and I am back where I started :(

I dropped by the garage again to ask more details when they had it, the mecahnic said that he tested spark to cyl 4 and it was good, tested compression it was good, he said he used a stethescope and that #4 injector sounded very weak to him so he unplugged the wire to #4 injector and there was no difference so he feels that #4 injector is the problem they want $160 for the injector and $150 to install.

I tried unplugging injecors 4,5 and 6 one at a time but to be honest to me it made no real difference sound wise.

Still no luck finding Berryman's here in Canada, I did find some on ebay and that was the injector cleaner (not the carb cleaner you mentioned before)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180161390408&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008

Can I clean the injector my self?

How do I take out the injector? edit... I found how to take out the injectors in the Haynes manual

Update....

Since I could not find Berrymans here in Canada I bought another can of seafoam and put the whole thing in my gas tank I will see if that makes any difference,

Failing that I will try replacing the injector in #4

today while sitting in line at the gas station I found that whne the van was running in Park or Nuetral it was behaving not so bad but in gear with my foot on the brake it was a lot more rough. but even sitting in Park the check engine light would still flash from time to time.

If you can't find Berryman's B12 then see if you can find SeaFoam in your area... link HERE (http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechGas.htm). It's very versatile as one product fits many aplications and should perform just aswell or better.

Ya I thought that too (in an earlier post I mentioned that I used Sea Foam I used 1/3 in the intake 1/3 in the crankcase and the last 1/3 in the tank.)

This morning I bought another can of seafoam and put the whole can in the gas tank and drove the van for about 40km tonight and I did not have the check engine light flash at all, on the highway it seemed to be running much smoother though at idle in gear with my foot on the brake it is still running rough fluctuating between 500 and 800 rpm.

When I got home I disconected the battery so I will see if the check engine light comes back again on Tuesday.

fingers crossed x x

I will see how the rest of the tank full of gas suns

(in an earlier post I mentioned that I used Sea Foam I used 1/3 in the intake 1/3 in the crankcase and the last 1/3 in the tank.)

If you had a 1/3 can of SeaFoam in a full tank of gas is not going to do much as it gets too dilluted. You need a full can on full tank to be efective, hopefully you'll see an improvement this time around.

well so much for that idea :(

It ran great for about 20 minutes today and then the flashing light came back and it may even be running even rougher now!

I phoned another garage that speciallizes in Engine rebuilding and told him what Ihave done so far and he asked me what brand of plugs and wires I installed and after telling him NGK plugs and Champion Wires he said that he had another customer that had a missing problem and they just switched back to Motocraft (Ford) Wires and Autolite Plugs and the problems went away, I know some people in here said Autolite too, so I am thinking of switching oer to see if that makes any difference and while I am at it I will inspect the coil too.

Interesting today I was telling someone at the bank of my troubles and he wondered if my cat may be plugged, will this cause it too?

he says that when he had a plugged cat he put Premium Lamp oil(1/3 bottle in his tank, I read the lable and it is made from Petroleum Distallate one of the same ingrediants as Sea Foam.

Ok, I think I am making progress......

The way I am looking athis now is that I hav or had multiple problems and just have to tackle them one at a time.

Also even though a lot of us have had the same symptoms there can be many causes.


since I last reported here is what I have done.....


when to the wreckers and picked up a new style black plastic DPFE sensor, TPS sensor, MAF sensor, IAC Valve and 3 fuel injectors.

(by the way I looked at 3 windstars there that had the intake plenum off and all of the EGR Ports were plugged on all 3 vans (1 had only 120km the other 2 both had over 200k)

So I tried add all of the sensors a couple at a time and each time made no difference, then I took off the plenum again and took out the front 3 injectors (4-5-6) and cleaned all 3 of them and switched out #4 with one of the ones from the wrecker that I cleaned, then disonected the battery to clear the computer and then took it for a drive, it felt good for about 15 minutes on the highway (just a minor vibration) but when I got off the highway I had the rough Idle again :(

I drove back home on the highway again and when I got off the highway my engine light was flashing once again.

I went to a car electrician I know and asked him to put his code reader on it and he saw that cyl 2 and 5 had misfires and also codes 171 and 174 and a O-2 sensor he cleared the codes and then I bought a code reader from him
http://www.mactools.com/Mac/Mac+Products/Catalog/Electronics/Scan+Tools/ET50
so now I can clear the codes my self and recheck them after every thing I do

I then drove home and by the time I got home (15 minutes) the engine light was flashing again, so I checked the codes again
and this is now what I have

po302 cyl 2 misfire
po171 pd sytem to lean bank 1
po174 too lean bank 2
edit after the next time out I also got a missfire on #5 (code 305) so another injector will be switched there as well

so next I will try to double check spark and fuel injector on cyl 2 and try again

Read this on one of the stickys so I think I am on the right track with the injectors...

This group of codes indicate a condition that the indicated oxygen sensor is reporting.
These codes are almost NEVER caused by a defective oxygen sensor or sensor circuit.

P0171 Oxygen sensor reporting too lean condition on bank 1 (rear bank)
P0172 Oxygen sensor reporting too rich condition on bank 1

P0174 Oxygen sensor reporting too lean condition on bank 2 (front bank)
P0175 Oxygen sensor reporting too rich condition on bank 2

Lean codes almost always are a result of a vaccum leak (all years and engines).
1999 3.8L and newer windstars refer to sticky post on P0171 / P0174, this TSB does NOT apply to 1998 and older or 3.0L engine.
Lean codes can also be a result of clogged fuel injector(s) or fuel delivery issue.
Rich codes can be caused by a leaking fuel injector or misfire due to no spark to one or more cylinders
Lean and rich codes can be caused by MAF issues (try cleaning)


I was reading another thread where the guy said that his problem was the Crankshaft pully/balancer, that makes sense for me too because when I drive down the highway the engine is vibrating where I feel it in the steering wheel. and I opened the hood to watch the pullys while it is idling and I think I see that the crankshaft pully is out of round slightly and the engine is shaking a little too. I do not think this would cause any codes to pop up but it may be another problem that I have.

Is there any other advice for me?

I had booked an appointment at Ford to have them run a diagnostic but they were not to proud of me that I have been switching out all these parts (with used ones for some) and I got the impression that they would take longer to do the diagnostic because of it (which would mean more charges than the 1 hour $96.00 they wanted to charge me) anyways since I bought that code reader I cancled my appointment and I will keep plugging away at this my self.


with all of your helps too of course which is very much appreciated :)

am also thinking about if I should be looking at crank sensor or camshaft sensor or maybe even switching out the PCM? luckily my Wrecker I deal with does not charge me as much as most wreckers do (he is a metal recycler rather than a regular auto wrecker.)


edit see codes above

It is fixed.... WOOT!

today I replaced #2 and #5 fuel injectors (with used ones from the wreckers) and I also found a thin white vacumm tube that connects to some junction for other vacumms against the firewall that was snapped off so I fixed that.

edit.... I found out that the hose that was snapped was for the "Evaporative Emissions Control System" (EVAP)
in the Haynes book it states.....
Poor Idle, stalling and poor drivability can be caused by an inoperative vapor management valve, damaged canister,split or cracked hoses or hoses conected to the wrong ports So I think that was a major problem I had!

put it all back together and drove it all day long and it now purrs like a kitten.

I only have a po153 code [pd] 02 sensor circuit Slow Response bank 2 Sensor 1

Can soneone tell me which O2 sensor that is and where it is located?

I would like to take it out and see if it is dirty.

It is not giving me the check engine light just the code in the code reader, will this hurt the engine if not fixed?

Bank #2 is the FRONT bank of cylinders.
Easy way to remember.....on FORD engines, bank 1 is the bank with cylinder #1.

So.....this is the front bank.....and sensor 1 is the "upstream" sensor.....which is the one that you can see when you look down at the exhaust pipe coming off of the front manifold......you can see it when you lift the hood and look down there.
Of course....it is easiest to remove it from the bottom.

Personally, when replacing oxygen sensors.....I like to replace the "upstream" (before the catalytic converter) sensors as a pair....and pay a little extra and get Genuine Motorcraft brand.....as they will be made to Motorcraft Specifications.
The reason that I recommend replacing the upstream sensors as a pair is that the switching speed does slow down as they age....and I like for the upstream sensors to be as close in performance as each other as possible....(matching).
The PCM uses the upstream sensors to control the engine......fuel trim.....which has a major impact on the fuel economy.

The "downstream" sensors serve to monitor the catalytic converters.......and tell you if they are working or not.....and otherwise are not used for engine control.
They also switch at a much slower speed......due to the exhaust parameters not changing as fast as with the upstream sensor location.
For that reason......I don't worry so much about the downstream sensors being matched.

The new oxygen sensors should come with the antiseeze already on the threads......so they just need to be screwed in.
Personally.....I would unplug ONLY 1 sensor at a time......as it is very easy to get the connectors mixed up.....and this method will prevent you from crossing your wires.

The old sensors......you can get a "oxygen Sensor wrench" at most any auto part store.....it is a standard deep socket with a slot in the side to permit the wires to stick out the side.....while you have the socket on your ratchet and on the sensor.
I would soak the threads (only the threads) with PBlaster or other good rusty thread soaker well ahead of time.
Also....do the job with the exhaust system COLD.

Great info, thanks again :)

a friend of mine has a 95 windstar and the only code he has is the P0141 Downstream Oxygen sensor bank 1 HEATER circuit malfunction
Downstream sensors monitor the catalytic converter operation


so from what you said above, he has no engine problem... does that mean if anything he needs a cat?, or would he need a sensor?

It is fixed.... WOOT!

today I replaced #2 and #5 fuel injectors (with used ones from the wreckers) and I also found a thin white vacumm tube that connects to some junction for other vacumms against the firewall that was snapped off so I fixed that.

If your discovery is correct, then your injectors might actually be fine. If I were you, I'd keep those injectors and make sure they are cleaned up nice for future use.

Congrats!

yes I kept the injectors, I had the same feeling.

thank you all for your help :)

Your friend with the Oxygen sensor heater circuit code has a problem with the heater in that oxygen sensor....or a wiring issue (check the connection(s) first).
This code would not be caused by a problem with the catalytic converter......it is the heater circuit for the oxygen sensor.

There are 4 wires.......2 are for the oxygen sensor (a voltage is generated by the chemical reaction caused by the difference in oxygen content inside the exhaust pipe and the oxygen content in the atmosphere).
The other 2 are for the heater inside the oxygen sensor unit.
The heater heats up the sensor material to the temperature needed for the chemical reaction to take place.
The PCM monitors the current flow through this circuit....and sets a code if it is not within a certain range.
One likely cause would be a open circuit.......could be as simple as a dirty contact inside the connector.....or a broken wire......or a broken heater inside the sensor.

One thing that I like to do......ONLY disconnect ONE oxygen sensor at a time.......so that you will not cross the connectors / sensors when you re-connect.

Thans I will pass this on to my friend :)

I experienced the same with my 96. By the way, if you put Bosch platinum plugs in, take them out NOW. Some engines do not like those plugs and the 3.8 is one of them. After replacing everything on mine, it ended up being the coil. I replaced it with one from a discount auto store which lasted for 2.5 years and it went again. I then bought a higher quality one and it is still running strong with 140,000 miles on it.

Do the 95 3.8L's have the same hose: "thin white plastic vacumm line snapped off going to the evap which is on the firewall" ?

I have seen this in this thread and another regarding the 98, but as I'm still chasing a problem in my van I'm entertaining things I haven't heard of before.

I am not sure.... but any vacumm leaks can cause runability problems, so take off the cowel and closely inspect all hoses.

edit.... I found out that the hose that was snapped was for the "Evaporative Emissions Control System" (EVAP)
in the Haynes book it states.....
Poor Idle, stalling and poor drivability can be caused by an inoperative vapor management valve, damaged canister,split or cracked hoses or hoses conected to the wrong ports

Would this/could this apply to a 1999 Windstar? If so, how much was this part? Did you replace just the part on the firewall or is there more to it? I can't seem to find the exact part in AllData on this one.

Thanks, glad you got this taken care of.

All I had to do was take the piece that snapped off out of the rubber boot that connected to the evap on the firewall and then shove the hose back into the rubber boot, so I did not have to replace any parts.

the 99 engine is different from the 98 slightly but I would think the same parts are used there, I think the upper intake and lower intake has some differences