'02 Intake Manifold Project in Progress: Day 1 Problems

'02 Intake Manifold Project in Progress: Day 1 Problems (3.4L, 105k miles)

Actually Day 2, but who's counting.

Could use a quick answer on these questions so that I can continue.

Day 1 went VERY slow. I made steady progress, but it was painfully slow because I was documenting everything I pulled out and putting bolts, nuts, etc in ziploc bags. Plus, I struggled with some of the connectors - especially one that faces the firewall that I could only see with a mirror: it had a white plastic "rip-cord" to release it and I didn't realize you have to crimp the bottom of this piece in order to pull it up and out to free the plug so I cracked it off (oh well). Also struggled a bit with the accelerator cables, then the spark plug wires were WELDED in there, it seemed (one broke). Boy, there's a LOT of stuff that has to come off to get to these gaskets. Today, I pulled out the alternator, alternator mounting bracket, coolant bypass tube, and upper intake with gaskets, but ...

I cannot get the Power Steering Pump out!!!

I can't get it past that back fuel rail which has the fuel test port on the end of it sticking out. The ASE master mechanic at dtips.com said that if you take off the cover on the fuel test port (a simple slim screw-on cap) this gives just enough room to pull the PS unit out. I don't think so. I've tried repeatedly and cannot do it. Do you have to loosen or even remove the back fuel rail? It appears so. I cannot get the braided hose to clear the test port on the left side, and I cannot get the cast iron body of the unit to clear the cast iron of the block on the right side. It just repeatedly jams up because you end up having to twist it as you pull it up in order for it to clear the obstructions on either side.

Also, is this fuel test port thing the Shrader valve people refer to that I need to put a rag over and press in the center to relieve the fuel pressure? Looks like it is.

Another question: How am I going to correctly torque down the rear left-corner bolt that holds down the upper intake cover? This bolt has a nut in the middle and needs to be turned down until the nut is flush. I guess I need a DEEP socket attached to my torque wrench to clear the threaded stud on the topside of the nut? I used a box wrench to get it off, but I can't use that on re-install, can I?

One other odd thing yesterday (Day 1): I only got about 3 Qts of coolant out of the radiator when I opened the petcock, radiator cap, plastic tank cap, and bleeder screw. I thought this might've been because I didn't heat the car up beforehand to get the T-Stat to open, so I pulled off the lower radiator hose (at the engine side because I couldn't get the radiator end off - darn silver pipe in the way ... the tranny coolant line?). Again - nothing came out. Nothing to speak of came out when I pulled off the coolant bypass pipe, either. Is it possible I was THAT low on coolant, or am I in for a surprise when I finally pull out the lower intake? Could substantial coolant still be trapped in the block and come gushing out on me?

Is the cooling system sludged up if so draining can be an issue , if that much coolant was in the engine the oil would be full of antifreeze, yes the test port is one way to relieve pressure. Yes you must get to that bolt with the ability to torque it, remember the updated gaskets are accompanied by new intake bolts and torqueing procedure. Not sure about this p/s pump issue, my last job like this was on a 99 which has it's components located differently, someone should kick in here for that advice.

maxwedge,

Thanks for your reply. There was SOME mixing of oil with coolant (I'd get the fudgicle build-up in the radiator filler neck), but it wasn't THAT bad! But I guess it's possible it had that little coolant in there because the leak near the PS Pump had gotten noticeably worse in the last couple weeks and after removing the Upper Intake today, it looks like it was leaking pretty good on that side too (but I could never really see it). As far as coolant in the oil, I never noticed any whenever I changed the oil and I just changed the oil less than two weeks ago and it all came out fine. I changed the oil because the engine clicked loudly one day and did not stop. I ran the SeaFoam through the oil, changed the oil, and the noise did not return. Still, it scared me into finally starting on this Intake Gasket project.

I bought the Fel-Pro gasket set and I will be re-using the oil bolts (after cleaning them and applying new BLUE threadlocker). The GM gasket set came with new bolts and was actually reasonably priced ($45), but the gaskets themselves looked like junk compared to the Fel-Pros. And I know about the new torquing procedure and numbers.

More questions for tomorrow:



1.) How am I cleaning out the upper and lower intakes after I have them off the car? I bought 6 cans of brake fluid, and I'll be using a flexible putty knife for the flat edges, but what about the curved inner chambers that are full of carbon - like on the upper intake? Is that done with a soft brush, or do I just spray it liberally with brake fluid then hose it down? Also, how long is it going to take me to clean the upper and lower intakes? I've only got three days left and my progress has been near-glaciel thus far.



2.) After the lower intake is removed and I clean out the valley in the car where the new RTV will go, should I wash the valley down with transmission fluid to get any debris to wash down to the oil pan? I think I saw mention of doing this somewhere in my travels.



3.) Should I be replacing all the hoses - especially those two small hoses on the Coolant Bypass Pipe underneath the throttle body that might be hard to get at after everything is back together?



4.) Noticed this while trying to yank out the Power Steering Pump: My engine can be rocked 3/4" (maybe more) forward and back on the two front motor mounts. The mounts don't look bad to me. Is this play normal?

Normal on the mounts, be careful with cleaning up inside the engine do not break loose hard carbon, it will just wind up floating around the engine and don't go crazy in the intake either, deposits are normal just a surface cleaning is good, I usually dump some Kero down though the lifter valley to wash stuff into the pan , but get all the kero out as it will contaminate the oil, watch the different length push rods, you knew this I am sure. Yes the hose should go, if the by pass pipe is not leaking or deteriorated, leave it. Go easy on the brake clean this gets into a lot of places, plus although invisible it does leave a residue.

colt, sorry about not being around. i just changed jobs and i went to the night shift. I dont get off work till 7:30am. the first couple of weeks i have been getting the "you need to spend more time with us when your awake" routine. LOL

So how was your progress? I take it you have the thing back together, so give us an update.

Surrender,

Nope, not back together yet. I wanted to complete this project last week because that's when I was least exposed with only one car, but I ended up starting late in the week, made less and less progress each day, and ran out of time. So now I'm back at work and working on it when I can (at an even slower rate). I'm hearing the complaints (both at home and at work), but the reality is it's only incovenient for ME, since I'M the one driving everybody around and I'M the one working the shifted work day. No big deal. I should be done this weekend.

More questions, though:

Lifters, Threaded Holes, Plugs, and Pitted Metal:

Four questions ('02 Impala 3.4L 105k miles):

1.) When you drop new lifters in, they should be oriented so that the roller on the bottom can roll on the camshaft below. But what is keeping the lifter from turning inside its bore? It seems like it's just sitting in there. And what happens if you accidentally drop the lifter in with the roller turned the wrong way? Will it swivel and self-orient? Also, I just pulled the old lifter out and dropped the new one in. There was already some oil in the bore, so I didn't add any more. Should I have added oil? I THINK I JUST DISCOVERED THAT THE HOLD DOWN BRACKET WON'T SIT RIGHT IF THE LIFTERS ARE TURNED THE WRONG WAY, BUT I THINK THEY CAN BE TURNED EITHER WAY (WITH THE OIL HOLE ON EITHER SIDE AND THE CLIPS FACING EITHER WAY)

2.) What's the best way to clean up oily, threaded holes. I'm about to re-insert the cleaned intake bolts with threadlocker but the holes are still full of gunk. Do I need to buy a tap for this, and what size would it be if the bolthead is 10mm (or is there no correlation)? Could I use a small circular wire brush? I JUST ENDED UP SPRAYING ONE BOLT OF EACH TYPE WITH BRAKE CLEANER AND REPEATEDLY SCREWING IT INTO AND OUT OF THE HOLE UNTL THE HOLE LOOKED CLEAN. LOOKS PRETTY CLEAN TO ME.

3.) The new spark plugs were spec'd to be torqued to 11 ft lbs. Is that right? Seems low to me. I pretty much turned them in by hand using the socket and extension and when I added the torque wrench it clicked immediately. I did a double-check to make sure, but it just kept clicking on me. Really makes me feel like they're not tightened in there. I'M GOING TO TRIPLE CHECK THIS ONE BECAUSE IT CONCERNS ME.

4.) It appears that the only place my intake was really leaking was on the Power Steering side. The coolant passages on this side have the same oily scum that I would find on the underside of my radiator cap. The coolant passages on the Throttle Body side look pristine. The block metal here also looks a bit pitted. I've cleaned this area very well, but should I coat it with RTV before laying the new Felpro gaskets on top to fill in the surface? I'm thinking this might be why there was leakage on this side. Or maybe this thing is ALWAYS going to leak because the diagonal bolts are too short (or not tight enough). I THINK I'M GOING TO GO AHEAD AND SMEAR A THIN LAYER OF RTV AROUND THESE COOLANT HOLES, THEN DROP THE GASKETS IN WITH THE BEAD ON EACH END (OVER AND UNDER THE GASKETS). EVERYTHING LOOKS PRETTY CLEAN RIGHT NOW BUT I'M NOT OPTIMISTIC THAT THIS THING WON'T LEAK AGAIN. I THINK THE DIAGONAL BOLT DESIGN IS THE PROBLEM AND IT WILL ALWAYS LEAK SOONER OR LATER.

The lifters have a guide in the tappet chamber to keep them from rotating, you don't see this? No the lifter will not turn, why would you leave it in wrong? Brake clean and some paper towel dipped into the threaded holes will clean them. Do you have the updated bolts and torqeing procedure for the intake? 12-15 on the plugs is ok. Do not use rtv with the new gasktes, if the pits are deep this is a seperate issue.

I think the plastic guide keeps the lifters in place. I had taken the guide off and when I went to pull out the lifters they were free to rotate - which I thought was pretty weird. I never looked at the guide to see if it had a flat edge on it. I thought it was just there to keep the lifters from popping out.

I'm re-using my old bolts. They look fine (although the diagonals almost looked stretched to me at first due to the band of grease on the threads.

Yeah, I guess I won't smear any RTV on the head to fill in the pits. The literature that came with the FelPro gasket set said not to do that ("even though mechanics use epoxy", it said). Problem is, I don't have a frame of reference, so I really don't know what "bad" pitting is. It doesn't look bad to me, but what do I know?

Hey Colt Hero... Your questions are right on the mark and your attention to detail is impressive... I have to ask you this question... Are you an engineer like myself??...Engineers tend to have this very close attention to detail...

I was fortunate and had this job done by my local Chevy dealer covered under my GM Major Guard protection plan... But I asked them lots of questions while they did the work... I got the car back in 3 days and so far so good...

gems,

Education is Computer Engineering, but I work as a software guy. As I've said before, writing software forces you to think of everything that could possibly happen and then code for it. This way of thinking has unfortunately (?) creeped into my everyday life. I think it's mostly a good thing, but it can bog me down sometimes, too.

I dropped the lower intake in today and put the valve covers back on, too. When removing the pushrods, 1 out of 12 could not be removed just by using the Lisle tool and so I had to loosen a rocker arm nut (which then had to be re-torqued down, of course). On re-install, a second pushrod refused to go in using just the Lisle tool (must've been due to the new lifter below?), so another loosened rocker arm nut. Kind of defeats the purpose of the tool, but I guess 10 out of 12 is still pretty good! One thing I noticed on re-install in regards to keeping the intake and exhaust pushrods straight: the intake pushrods are raised (they come off the lifters below at a steeper angle) while the exhaust pushrods sit almost flush to the gasket and heads. So if you've managed to mix them up, you can still save yourself by looking at the rocker arms. The ones that jut out more toward the center are the intake pushrods.

One possible issue with the gaskets: I noticed afterwards that the long, thin piece at the ends of each gasket that runs up the diagonal "V" at each of the four corners is recessed in at least one of my corners, while the others are flush with the LIM and head below. This concerns me a bit because I wonder if the gasket is slightly buckled inside (hopefully it's just this flimsy piece that shifted inward a bit). I sure hope it won't be a problem. The other issue was with the torque procedure. It never fails that there is always subtle contradiction when you read a procedure from more than one source. Most everyone on the web was saying that you torque the vertical bolts to 62 in-lbs, then the diagonals to 62 in-lbs, then the verticals again to 115 in-lbs and the diagonals to 18 ft-lbs. But the Fel-Pro kit said to completely torque the verticals first, then torque the diagonals (same numbers, but a subtle difference in sequence). I did what the Fel-Pro procedure said to do because most everyone said the verticals had to be torqued first (although nobody said "completely torqued" first). Probably won't make a difference. As I said previously, I'm betting this thing leaks again before long. My theory is the diagonal bolts are the problem. There are not enough of them and they're too short. I think this is why my LIM was leaking around the PS Pump water passages. Hopefully the thicker flanges on the new gaskets will make a difference, but a couple more carefully-located bolts on each side would probably be better.

Hoping to finish up tomorrow, but still a lot to do: T-Stat and housing, new radiator hoses, PS Pump, Alternator and mounting brackets, front and back coolant pipes plus new hoses there, too (my Fel-Pro kit came with an O-Ring for one of these pipes - not sure which one yet), coil box, new wires, EGR gasket and bolt-up, lots of plugs and sensors to go back on, UIM and its new gaskets, Mass Air Flow pipe and sensor, throttle/cruise linkages, plastic coolant tank, cross brace, fresh oil and coolant, splash guard underneath.

Then, what if it doesn't work, it leaks, or the computer throws a bunch of codes??? Can't bear to think of that right now...

The updated bolts can be torqued to a higher level and the sequence has been changed when using them, this is part of the updates both in design and materials, that is the point of of both GM and the aftermarket recommending the use of them. As careful and meticulous as you seem to be, I find it odd that you are ignoring this issue.

Well, the Fel-Pro kit says in their instructions that it's OK to clean and re-use the old bolts - so that indicates to me that there probably isn't anything special about the new bolts (except that they're new). Also, the new torque procedure is still very low torque, so it's doubtful that the old bolts could not be re-used. Plus, the old bolts came out pristine. Even the threads looked good - which indicates to me that the intake hadn't shaken loose like some people have indicated. I think the problem is with the bolt strategy (poor or insufficient bolt placement on the ends of the block). I guess it could also be bad gasket design, but it's not a bolt problem. And if it IS the bolt strategy, then it's going to leak again (unless the beefier gaskets make a difference).

The strategy here is the new bolts have increased tensile strength an therefor reduced elasticity and better clamping force, this is the strategy for better gasket life, but you seem to have the answers.

Well, you make a good point, but unfortunately, that's the first time I've ever heard that argument for the new bolts. This is why I ask as many questions as I do - to flush out comments like the one you just gave. Had someone mentioned this earlier, I probably would've used the new bolts. All I heard was: "you don't need to use the new bolts", "just clean the old ones and appy threadlocker", etc. Then, like I mentioned previously - even Fel-Pro stated in their kit that the old bolts could be re-used with their gaskets. You'd think that the gasket manufacturer would be on top of this because they wouldn't want their gaskets to be blamed for a future leak...

Here's a Fel-Pro link talking about their gaskets to solve the intake leak problem. They harp on the sealing properties - the structure of the beads and their ability to resist chemicals in a harsh environment. They say nothing about the need for new bolts.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/10/14/252583.html

I am basing this advice on a known industry issue with the intake gaskets and the recommendations from GM's engineering dept. Early versions of the updated gaskets did not require or recommend the new bolts. The bolts are designed marginally in their ability to maintain clamping force, it is cheap insurance to use the updated bolts, they also have the locker in the thread, but the old bolts are stretched and may or may not do the job, why take a risk here. We could bounce this around for months and the fact remains that this is the proper procedure, it is cheap and should be utilized. BTW, Gm has a class action suit with this issue and you qualify for some reimbursement for the repairs, check this link. www.dexcoolsettlement.com.

Here's another possibility regarding the new bolts: GM may be recommending the new bolts to compensate for (or provide insurance for) their inferior gaskets. It's interesting that the bolts were not recommended with the earlier versions of GM's revised gaskets. I wonder if some of those repairs re-lapsed (re-leaked). Many cars have been repaired to this point. I've already read about some relapses only a year later. I'd love to see the statistics on the ones that leaked again, including such data as:

1.) The expertise level of the person who did the repair
2.) The manufacturer of the gasket used and what the gaskets looked like when they came out
3.) The bolts that were used (updated or originals) and what they looked like when they came out
4.) The strength of threadlocker was used
5.) The number of miles the car had been driven since the repair was made
6.) The coolant the car was re-filled with (Dex-Cool or standard stuff)