Won't start, nothing obvious wrong, any suggestions?

Hi guys

I have a question about my 95 Windstar. I got up this morning, drove it around the corner to buy coffee, bought coffee, came outside and ... it wouldn't start. The engine was turning over fine (so not the starter, I think), the battery *seemed* to be strong, but it just wasn't starting up. I had to leave it where it was, but before I left, all the leads looked attached, there was gas in the tank, no leaks or smells, no check engine light - in other words, nothing unusual.

The car's always started first or at very least second time. The battery and alternator are a couple of months old, belt's just been changed, the engine has always run strong, the fuel filter was changed last year - so in other words, there's nothing immediately obvious wrong that I could spot. The only other thing that has been weird over the last couple of days is that the car was running at slightly high revs, but nothing absolutely ridiculous (and I might actually have been imagining it).

I'm going to swap in a fresh, charged battery, and check the fuel level again, but I'm afraid if it's not that, then I'm going to have to get AAA to tow me somewhere (sigh) to get it fixed. Sigh.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I could do myself before resorting to tow 'n' spend?

Thanks for your help, guys.

BTW, did anyone see the article in Sunday's NY Times about the Ford brake switch recall?

LW

well, off the top of my head, could the impact button on the fuel pump kill switch have popped? It's in the R rear jack compartment on your van I think. If it's ok, do you know if the fuel pump is pumping? Possibly a relay problem there too if the pump works.

Piper

Check for spark first. any plug wire.
Then check fuel pressure
Two mains that it needs to run

Thing that like to quit without notice
Fuel pump
Coil packs
MAF sensor
Crank sensor
Cam sensor
IAC Less common but they do get stuck!! Beat on it sometime will free it.. Rubber hammer etc.

Thanks for your help, guys. It would be great if it's just the fuel cutoff switch, that's for sure! I will do what I can and report back.

I would also say fuel delivery/pressure issue.
The 1995 windstar has the fuel pump relay inside the Constant Control Relay Module (CCRM).

You will NOT get a Check Engine Light (CEL) or any stored codes that tell you that you have a fuel flow / pressure issue as these 2 values are NOT measured / monitored on the windstar.

With the radio and blower OFF.....turn the key to the "run" position....but do not go on into the "start" position.
You should hear the fuel pump run for just a couple of seconds.....to pump the fuel system up to pressure.


The battery is a good thing to look at....as it is possible for it to still deliver plenty of current to turn over the motor.....but drop in voltage just enough to cause other problems.....like no spark.....or no fuel....as relays need a certain minimum voltage to activate.

A loose or corroded connection can also cause an issue....
Corroded can look perfect to the eye.....but cause a voltage drop under load.

Hmmmm - there's been an interesting development!

I went back tonight and was actually able to start and drive it. The thing is, it would only start because after 3-4 seconds of cranking and a bit of pumping on the gas. (I hadn't wanted to push it when I first felt the problem because I didn't want to drain the battery or burn out the starter. When I went back tonight, I had the backup battery). I drove it around for a while, and everything seemed fine, except again for the revs being slightly higher than usual.

As I was driving around, I stopped and switched off 2 or 3 times, waited a couple of minutes, then started back up again - same thing, it needs 3-4 seconds of cranking and pumping on the gas even when the engine is warm.

So...given that I could drive it OK once it got started, it's not the case that there's been a total failure of either spark, fuel or compression, right? And fuel pump can't have failed, otherwise it wouldn't have given me any fuel as I was driving about.

Is it possible it's an off-kilter Throttle Position Switch? Would that falsely inform the engine that the throttle is too closed to start (which causes the weird starting) and underpowering when driving along (which causes the slightly higher revs)?

Also, in the meantime, if I'm cranking it for 3-5 seconds each time - that's going to increase wear on the starter in the long run, but it's not going to burn it out, is it?

But I'm happy that I don't have to call a tow truck immediately, that's for sure! :smokin:

I wonder if just holding down very slightly on the accellerator will help.
Pumping the accellerator does not squirt fuel into the motor.....like it did back in the carborator days.
So I am thinking that your getting the motor to start by opening the throttle body when you press on the accellerator......which is what makes me think the IAC could be sticking closed.....or even have some dirt clogging it.

My thinking is that, yes....you could have an issue with the throttle position sensor (TPS).....but more likely would be the Idle Air Control (IAC) that tartersause mentioned.
I have both IAC and TPS labeled in this photograph
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2694966620011220610VszMOd

I would try cleaning the IAC.

lapin, please let me know what you find out. my 1996 windstar has been having the same exact problem for a few days now. havent got stranded yet but it is very close to happening. thanks.

Here's a total long shot but something to maybe consider. I was reading about a similar sounding set of symptoms where the car would act as you describe. They found the problem by checking the fuel pressure with a suitable gauge. Turns out the return line on the fuel had an obstruction which didn't show up on higher idle or driving as more fuel was being used but caused problems like you describe when less fuel is required at lower idle.

FWIW

:2cents:

Thanks, guys, that sounds like a distinct possibility! Also, when I was googling for more information, I found this link on a Ford Explorer site which also mentions a highpitched whine when you get a dirty IAC. http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84220&highlight=clean+iac

Now that they mention it, I have noticed a slight change in the engine's sound but it was such a soft whine that I didn't pay any attention to it. All of these things added together makes me think that IAC is a good target. Even better, it's straightforward to clean and relatively cheap to replace, so I am especially hoping that's the problem!

I'm glad you've come to this conclusion because I was going to say IAC immediately. I have only had 3 instances of no start issues:

1. Starter was going bad with noticeable ping/clank sound
2. ZERO electrical power inside cabin or when key turned (ground wire at alternator)
3. More likely in your situation.... van would turn and turn and turn.. would not start at all: IAC

TIP:
Save some money - buy a can of CRC Electrical Parts cleaner from Autozone or wherever (its a red/black can with pictures of an alternator and starter on it).
Pull the black IAC cover (removes without much effort) on top of throttle body - disconnect the IAC plug/harness
Loosen the just 2 nuts that hold the IAC down to remove it
Pull it out and turn it over. I bet you will find tons of black gunk in there. Spray the CRC stuff LIBERALLY till its clean and use. Hold the IAC such that the spray does not fall into the motor area. Once its clean a bit flex the plunger thing that controls how much of the air-hole is open and spray more CRC stuff in there till everything looks new.
Ensure the IAC gasket is in good shape.... if so clean off that area a lil bit first for a good seal.
Reinstall IAC AFTER DRYING for about 10-15 minutes (using a fan helps speed this well)
See if your Winny restarts as it should. If not then the IAC went bad internally and requires replacement. I would not force the vehicle to start with it in this condition as IAC's have been known to blow PCM's in other vehicles.OR
Just buy a new one and install. :) That should do it.
EDIT: Unless its truly time for a new battery based on your description I think a new battery purchase is a waste of money at this point.

Hi guys

Thought I might update you on what's happened.

I bought the part new instead of just cleaning it (don't ask me why - it seemed to make sense at the time - but $108 from the parts store when it was $60 from Rockauto.com or whatever. Sigh...I should have paid for express delivery and done it yesterday).

I followed the instructions on leckemby.net/windstar/windstar02.html (the orientation is different between the 2000 Windstar and my 1995 but it's obvious where everything belongs). It's easy. The bolts were a bit long but I got there in the end. I took off the old one and installed the new one in about 10-15 minutes. The old one did indeed have quite a bit of crud inside it. (I haven't cleaned it yet for curiosity's sake).

Odd thoughts for anyone doing the same:

- the bolts on my one were stiff because they hadn't been moved in 13 years! don't be tempted to use the wrong wrench (you'll round the nut) and don't rush over using a little penetrating oil if you need it to get things moving.

- my new MotorCraft IAC valve didn't come with a new gasket like I thought it was going to. Luckily the old one looked fine.

- as always on engine but particularly this one: take care not to drop anything, esp the nuts into the air intake.

Now, the results: well, on one hand, it is idling slower than it was before, which makes me think that the IAC change has made a difference. Whereas before idle in P or D was about 1000/min, it's now 600-800/min, depending on whether the fan, a/c etc is on.

On the other hand, when I first started driving it around on a test drive, it was still a bit notchy between gear changes and over-revving (sometimes quite scarily). Then at a couple of stop lights it would drop to 200-400/min, which was lower than I'd ever seen it before. After a few minutes, though, that seemed to drop off and things got smoother. Also - I am still needing to blip the throttle to get her started up, but once she is running she idles and purrs perfectly smoothly.

I believe that the IAC is deployed by the ECU after the computer "learns" car's driving style/requirements (is this right)? Is this a case where as I drive it more over the next few days, it will "learn" what it needs to do and everything will go back to normal? Some websites for other manufacturers/models talk about "resetting" the IAC by turning the ignition on and off x times, or revving, or this and that. Is that something useful for the Windstar?

Hmmm...I am stroking my chin thoughtfully about this one!

EDIT: Meant to say - I've never seen an IAC need to be learned. It either works or doesn't because its a dynamically air flow adjusting device there isn't anything to learn. It adjusts air flow as needed so when you plugged it in it fixed "part" of your problem. If you are curious about it though pull the negative cable off the battery for a minute or so and put it back to get the ECU relearning to start back up.

This sporadic behavior seems to ring a bell with me that its either a vacuum leak or electrical. Since we both have 95's go check my thread: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5714662 - I just posted some stuff about checking the condition of your ground cables. I found two spots where my grounds are not good and it used to cause sporadic stalling with no notice. I began to notice that it would happen more on very humid or rainy days as the moisture was interrupting the already bad ground points. Testing info is in my thread there.

On my alternator ground cable it didn't look like it was in the greatest shape so I opted to replace it as well as when I had previously replaced the belt I couldn't get the alt bolt in 100%..... like 99% instead and this tiny gap was enough for moisture to screw with it. Though today I found one of the ground cables resistance was too high at 1 of the smaller negative cables coming off the battery.

Like me in my thread too I'd be willing to bet your low speed fan dropping resistor is toast. This will cause electrical ups and downs too and screw with your idle. This info and more again is in that thread.

Coincidentally one thing that made me reply is that you said the same exact thing I said about my van in my thread: Van is constantly changing idle 600 - 800rpm.

Honestly I'd suspect a vacuum leak last. As popular as they are in discussion I find its rare that there actually is one, but you can't count them out if everything else has been visited.

Might wanna consider too cleaning your MAS/MAF/AFM with the specific MAS cleaner from the parts store.

DOUBLE EDIT: I've added some power charts to my thread that are at least helping me see how power is routed from the grounds.