1998 Windstar Oil/Water in Throttle Body and Air Duct Hose

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w103/Microman66/windstarwater.jpg

I have a great running 98 Windstar. It does not overheat. The oil looks like it needs to be changed but it is not Coffee Colored, as the picture. The PCV valve looks clean, and rattles. I replaced the small 2 inch hose at the PCV valve on the back valve cover since it looked weak in the middle and may have been collapsing. I no longer get the big puddles of OIL/WATER on the ground, that I use to. I cleaned the oil/water out of the Intake Hose of the Throttle Body, but I still see some of the mixture underneath the Air Instake hose after a long drive.

I will go by the Ford dealer and buy another PCV valve, and replace the small curved hose going to the top of the engine near the Throttle Body that the other end of the PCV connects. Someone suggested that this could be cracked, and it does have some small cracks in it at the bend

I have read that the 99-00 had a design problem with the Valve Cover, and it allowed oil to be sucked out and give similar problem. But since this is a 98, I am just looking for pinched hoses, or leaks.

Car runs great, and hoping that I can find the reason that oil is being sucked into the air intake.

Do I have it correct that during normal operation, that the moisture and gases are sucked up out of the engine thru the PCV and into the top of the engine. And that the other Valve cover hose is going in the other direction or from the throttle body to the Valve cover?

Just trying to determine if the oil/moisture mixture is coming from the front or rear (PCV) valve cover.

Geting no codes on the engine.

Thanks for any help

On my 2000 3.8 engine, the flow of air goes in from the rear valve cover, through the crank case and out the front valve cover via the PCV and then goes into the intake manifold. I installed an oil separator on mine to stop the oil from getting in the intake but I never had anything close to what's in your picture. That looks more like coolant mixed with oil or something.

They moved the PCV valve from the rear valve cover to the front valve cover in 1999.
So the PCV valve on the 1998 shown is in the rear valve cover.
The air flows IN the front valve cover from that stiff hose that connects to the flex hose.

The liquid that is in your picture is exactly what the liquid in my catch can looks like......and I get a LOT of it in the COLD Wisconsin winter that we are having.

If you are having to add coolant, then I would suspect a coolant in oil issue....but you don't mention that.

A factory PCV valve and making sure that the motor is tuned up are the best things that you can do.
If you decide to add a catch can.....I have pictures of how I did mine on my '96 3.8L, which will be laid out pretty identical to your '98.
You will notice that I bought a catch can.....as, like you, I felt that I needed more capacity.
The large capacity also provides a larger dead air space.....which gives the air a better chance to have the vapors condense.....and fall out....staying in the can.
Also, locating the can in between the radiator overflow bottle and the washer fluid filler neck....is a cooler location than next to the motor (also a easy install....and easy to get at to empty)....a cooler catch can will collect more vapor.
I ended up with a long downhill slope on the hoses to my catch can....which was intentional.......when I shut down the engine......any fluid that settles in the hoses will drain back to the catch can.

Reviewed the pictures, and can't really find the few I remember seeing somewhere else where you may have talked about the installation of a filter.

Will search.... Kinda hear a Valve tapping and changed the oil and filter this morning. Might have been that way for a while, since the car is very quiet with the windows up.


Only car I have, and would like to take it to Grandsons Pancake breakfast for opening day of little league. And stop at auto parts store on way back.

Will search a little

found this link:
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/pcv_filter.htm

this seems to put the filter on the PCV side, is that correct? Off to Breakfast, will stop and buy some hose, and a couple filters, if they look correct.

EDIT: Going back to first game of season at Little League Field. But in the mean time, I bought the same glass inline filter as seen on the link for the 3.8L mustang above. I put it just above the PCV valve on the rear valve cover on this 98 Windstar 3.8. I have some extra hose length, as I could not remove the plastic "j" shaped (above 4") from the "T". So To testdrive I have some extra length of PCV hose connecting the new FILTER, to the J Hose and then of course a new piece at the THrottle body. Not the FORD L shaped, since they had none in stock, but a new piece of lenth that does not crimp. Also notice that the piece that goes towards the firewall from that J Piece seems to be dried and possibly in need of replacement, but ends seem pretty stiff and tight on the nipples. But there certainly is a STRONG SUCK, when I remove the PCV when engine is running. At least prior to install of the filter.

The only problem that I see is that I like a large dead air space.....and also, you do not want to have the liquid drain back down into the crankcase.....this is stuff you want to get out of your crankcase.

It looks like they had the same issue with the valve cover on that vehicle that the 3.8L windstars had in '99 and 2000, 1998 and older does NOT have that issue with the valve cover.

I have 1 picture here, that shows the catch can.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2194098380011220610sMWSny

And another....2 pictures away that shows the hoses.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2248514960011220610nQqNdh

If the links do not work, they are on page #9 of 10 in my pictures....
I wish that they had it set up so that I could make subfolders......to make it easier to find things in my pictures.....but they don't.

As noted, I used 3/8" line...
It was an easy install......I plugged the black hose directly into the PCV valve.....and plugged the clear line (that came with the catch can) into the hard plastic line.
Before my installation, there was a short....maybe 6"-8" hose that went from the PCV valve to the hard line......
I removed that short hose.

I used a zip-tie.....not real tight to secure the catch can to the washer fluid fill neck, and used a zip-tie or so to tie the hoses that I added up so that they were not against a hot engine part....or where they might rub a sharp place.

My catch can is a Greddy catch can.....you could do an internet seach to find a seller......
I have seen Greddy "style" catch cans for pretty cheap on ebay....and they would also be just fine.
Mine is the one with 9mm hoses fittings


Again, it was super easy to install.

There are only two places that oil can get into the Throttle Body or Air Filter Rubber hose, as I see it.

The two places would be both valve cover hoses. The one in the back with the pcv valve or the other hose on the other valve cover that goes directly to the Hose on the airfilter before the Throttle body.

I am looking for a Catch Can. But currently have that 10 dollar fuel filter inline with the PCV valve.

When operating normally do BOTH hoses (Front Valve cover, and Rear (PCV) valve cover both flow towards the Throttle body or Rubber Air Filter connector? or away from the valve cover and into the engine?

If that is the case, maybe the oil is coming from the front valve cover to the Rubber Air Filter connector hose?

Could you claify the proper operation, and when I find the Catch Can, I can know for sure that I have done all that I can when inserting it on the backside PCV line coming to top of Intake Manifold at Throttle Body.

If it moisture/sludge comes from the front, what would I need to do to that line?, or should it?

The air does NOT flow into the throttle body/air hose from the front valve cover on the '95-99 3.8L windstar.....
That is the breather line......air flows out of the throttle body/air hose into the front valve cover.......to replace the air that is DRAWN OUT through the PCV valve.

So the vaccum in the intake manifold pulls air out of the rear valve cover through the PCV valve....creating a slight vaccum inside the crankcase.......and fresh air is drawn into the breather in the front valve cover....which comes from the flex hose.....so that you are drawing clean air that has come through the air filter......preventing dust from being drawn into your crankcase.

So, you only need to install a catch can on the line to the PCV valve.

I bought my Greddy catch can on Cardomain....but I looked and could not find it there.
You most likely will need to buy it online.....or if not comfortable with that, located it online and call the store.
If you do a internet search on "catch can" or "Greddy Catch Can" you will locate a number of stores that carry them.
I would certainly get a Greddy "style" catch can if not the Greddy (You pay more for the Greddy name).

What I do not like about the system that is shown on the link on the mustang is that the chamber is too small....and also, when the engine is shut down, the fluid will flow back down into the crankcase....or collect there and be drawn into the intake when you start up the motor.
You don't want that back into the your motor oil.....and you are trying to keep it out of the intake.

What I don't like about the home made units that people make out of the air/water separators for air compressors is that they also have a small capacity....and are a lot more fuss.

You will collect MUCH more liquid in cold weather.
My can fills up within 1-2 months in wisconsin.
And by filled up.....I mean full.
So.....you most likely don't want to have to mess around with it every week, or every few days.

The added benefit of the catch can is it should help keep your EGR ports clear for longer and will keep your fuel injectors cleaner for longer.
The windstar tends to build up crud up inside the injector "end cap" over the spray end.

Again, the 9mm size fit the 3/8" diameter hose that fits the PCV lines just right.

I just emptied my catch can last night.......so I have a real recent picture in my mind.....and it looks just like the liquid in your picture.

I took apart the Air Filter and Hose to Throttle Body, and out poured from the black middle piece that goes between filter and RUBBER Hose about a cup of that brown mixture, with a thickness too it. Also some in throttle body, and rubber hose leading to it.

I took out the inline filter, and placed a filter from Home Depot used for Air Compressors in the same spot you put your Greddy. I drove a couple of miles on an errand, and did not notice anything in the filter bottle. I tested the PCV and did get sucking when I pulled it out. I also get some white smoke coming from the back of the engine when I expose the valve cover opening by removing the PCV while running. (Not sure if that is normal, but the car has 128,000 miles.

I have been adding Distilled H20 to the overflow tank, as I notice it keeps needing some occasionally.

Will watch and see if I get any of the mixture in the container going to work today. Car drives really smooth again, was stalling a couple of times yesterday.

Just wondering why the smoke, why the dropping of water in the overflow tank. Is there a water leak that could happen, that would only be on the top of the engine? When I changed the oil, there was no sign of that coffee color. It was just dark oil, and not overfilled. The dip stick still looks like clean oil, so I am only having trouble on the very top of the engine, with moisture.

Will keep watching

Considering selling the vehicle, but don't want to dump something on someone, without telling them what is going on. Ideally would like to fix it, or at least know what to fix.

Still wondering how the fluid that seems to settle in the black piece between the Air filter and the Rubber HOSE (Big black round hard plastic tube with electrical connector) seems to collect so much of the mositure substance. If the PCV valve is sucking it out, and it is attached at the top of the engine on the intake manifold after the throttle body, and all of the air is flowing into the engine, How does the fluid go out the Throttle Body?

Thats why I keep leaning towards the other hose that is suppose to be a return line (from the Air Filter Rubber tube flowing to the front valve cover), might be going the other way, (From the Valve cover to the Rubber Connection hose, where I find the moisture/fluid.

Thanks for thoughts

Once the fluid settles at the bottom of the Throttle body, it has no place else to go but out into the flex hose.
Also, I tried to spray some SeaFoam into the PCV line to clean out the intake.....and I got a lot of that running out the throttle body into the flex hose.

When usind the unit that you got from Home Depot......often there is a small filter in the tank......and it is best to remove that.....as it will clog and restrict the flow.......

If you are having to add coolant to the overflow tank, you most likely do have a leak.
I would highly recommend that you take a oil sample and send it in for testing.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
This place will send you a free sample kit.....and has instructions on how to take the sample.
They will get back to you quickly by telephone, email, as well as a hard copy of what they send you on email....through the US post office.
Coolant into the motor oil WILL destroy your engine bearings....

The most common coolant leaks that go into the motor are the Front cover gasket (AKA Timing cover gasket), and the lower intake manifold gaskets.
BOTH have been improved from the original.....so the replacements will be much more reliable.
The most expensive job to do is the front cover gasket.......the labor involved is major.

I solved my front cover gasket leak with Bar's brand of Stop Leak in the coolant.
I did this when it was leaking very slightly.....more of a seapage.
It has held for a good 5 years....and well over 100k miles.
The stop leak did not solve the lower intake manifold leakage.
That repair should cost about $400-$500 to have done for you.
The gaskets should be under $100, the rest is labor.

After driving to work, I first looked at the Home Depot Filter and could not see thru the foggy glass. It appeared to be opaque white. But after sitting some minutes I could see a 1/8/ to 1/4 inch at the bottom. The drain plug was aimed alittle wrong, and some had leaked. I was able to drain a little, and will watch some more.

Over a week ago, I bought some Bar's Leaks HEAD GASKET REPAIR. It is tht grey plastic bottle, that says BLOCK SEAL, Cooling Stop LEak, Permanent Repair, Seals Cracked Heads, Repairs BLown Head Gaskets, and Stops BLock Leaks.

Only Add to Radiator after removing Antifreeze.

I used this product on my sons 89 Corolla, and it solved his problem. On his car however, I was able to follow the manufacturers directions perfectly. Even was able to bypass the Heater Core using a T, and flushing with the hose. The inside area of the Windstar is pretty tight, and not sure I could see how to bypass the heater core. Let me know if you have any suggestions about using the Bars Stop Leak.

So its water coming from the Intake Manifold or Timing cover?

There was a recall on the headgaskets and Ford paid for that,certain miles under 100,000 miles.My father did one once and Ford paid for it although it was not done at the dealer.

I don't know which location would be leaking.
In my case.....I have had leakage at both locations.
If it is not leaking externaly, it will be hard to tell.

Take note that a leaking lower intake manifold gasket is easy to mis-diagnose as a leaking head gasket.
Head gaskets were an issue on the 1995 3.8L windstar.....but rarely fail on the other years.
Of course, a head gasket job includes new lower intake manifold gaskets......so you would get the issue solved....but for more money than necessary.

A lower intake manifold gasket can leak into the cylinders.....just like a head gasket leak can.....
However....the coolant leaks into the intake manifold....and is drawn into the cylinder(s).
If enough leaks in.....you may get a green stain on the metal shield over the business end of one, or both of your "upstream" oxygen sensors......you would have to remove the sensor to see it.

When I first saw your post, I looked at your profile and saw that you are in California......and thought to myself that it was a lot of fluid for your location.
It has been below zero (F) a lot this winter in Wisconsin....and much of the upper west-midwest.
So....that would be expected in this part of the country right now.

I would urge you to have your oil tested for coolant.
The kit is free....and the test is only about $20-30...plus the cost of postage.
Sometimes the post office will question the "fluid" shipment.......but this is the same container used by aircraft operators on a regular basis.....sent through the mail.

A close inspection of your motor.....including a good look from the bottom may lead you to signs of external leakage....but even that could be hit or miss.
Even a loose hose connection could cause a loss of coolant.....but the amount of liquid in your intake has me concerned.....for your part of the country.

As far as Bar's Stop leak.....I have used the Original Pelleted, hard to get the pellets into my radiator through the cap....as the in-radiator transmission cooler is right under the cap......maybe remove the top hose and add it there.
I have also used the "Liquid Alluminum" Stop Leak...pours into the cap location easily.
The other version that I have seen....at Napa....is the tablet form.....another good one to put into the top radiator hose.
I prefer to add the stop leak directly into the radiator or radiator hose as opposed to the overflow bottle......as it will get into the system better.
Take note that it is normal for there to be a dark floating film at the top of the coolant in the overflow bottle when you have put stop leak into the cooling system.
Junk that floats...tends to get up into the radiator cap area....and be pushed on into the overflow bottle.

It just dawned on me to bypass the heater core, instead of cut, splice, this and that, there are two ideas I have. One is to pull the hoses off the heater core and join them together with a suitable 3/4" (I assume that's the right size) connector. For a temporary deal, a smooth pipe or plumbing fitting would be easier to install and remove. An 90 deg el may be needed to make the connection without kinking the hose.

The other idea I had is easier, as you don't have to struggle to work in the cramped quarters behind the engine or find something to connect them. Use clamps to cutoff the flow through the heater hose. If you can only cut off one hose, clamp the one coming from the thermostat as it is where the coolant comes from.

Have had the Home Depot bottle attached, but no good results. Bottle always has a line near the bottom, and 50% of the time it seems to leak out the bottom, onto the body. The color is consistent with what I find in the air duct in the bottle. I even added the filter back inside the bottle thinking it would help settle things down, and allow it to collect. That didnt happen.

Things I have noticed.

I unplugged the front valve cover (supposed return line for air from the clean air filter rubber duct area to the front valve cover). When I did that and put my finger over the opening on the valve cover for a few seconds, upon releasing my finger I could hear the rush of AIR "OUT". I assume with the line attached that the pressure I was feeling upon release would be pushing this air towards the RUBBER AIR DUCT. I did notice some oil in the outlet where it attaches to the front valve cover.

I had to take a trip to Home Depot to fix a plumbing problem, so I thought I would install that AutoZone replacement PCV valve that I have had for two weeks, but did not think I needed. Upon arrival at Home Depot, I noticed some white smoke coming up toward windshield. Opening the hood I find the AutoZOne PCV valve unplugged from the valve cover. I plugged it in. Upon returning home I again found it blown out of the valve cover. Apparently the Motorcraft PCV is slightly bigger and stays put, While the Autozone one does not.

I drained the water from the radiator and added distilled water. I am going to try and get rid of all the Coolant, in case I decide to add the Bars Head Gasket, and Block sealer to the radiator. I will drain and refill every day for a few days, and then flush some, before adding the sealer. Although I dont know if the sealer will help, or exactly what I would be sealing.

Again, the OIL on the dipstick looks perfect. Looks like clear oil. I have read somewhere, that I could try to use a heavier grade oil. Not sure if it will help, and since the car has 128,000 if usuing a heavier grade would be in order. Maybe the heavier grade wouldn't allow it to blow out. Where is all this pressure coming from on the top end? I do remember months ago, that I had to replace the Radiator Cap, since it was overheating, but I thought I never let it get too hot. No check engine light on.

Not sure what my next step will be. I think both valve cover lines (PVC rear) and FRONT line are under pressure for some reason, and putting this fluid into the throttle body.

Still driving to work each day 5 miles each way. Occasionally stalls at low idle.

Thanks for continuing thoughts.

I would change the oil FREQUENTLY as the coolant and even water will not do good things for lubrication.

I have read that the Motorcraft PCV valve is highly recommended over aftermarket valves.

If the Motorcraft PCV valve does not stay seated, you can buy a PCV valve grommet....as they sometimes wear out.

This is sounding more and more like a lower intake manifold gasket issue......when you mention the steam in the exaust.
I would have them replaced.

What kind of cost should I be looking for just the lower intake gaskets?

And if I have them do it, what should I make sure they do when the manifold is off?

I assume there is no way for you to know if I could do this job myself. Since I am at the age, where I enjoy doing a job and learning something new, but not to the point of bending over a car and getting a sore back. I can follow instructions, but always hate getting to that point where you don't know how somthing comes apart. You know there is a "trick" or "tool" but have to ask someone.

I just cant figure out where to take it. It is so hard to find a good mechanic that knows what he is doing, without trying to sell you a head gasket.

Will have to ask around. There was one place that was recommended the other day, when I showed Autozone that picture, they said to go down to PurFect Auto in Bellflower. I showed the owner the picture at the top of the thread, and he was thinking head gasket and quoted around $1,000. Another place that saw the picture quoted 1600, also thinking head gasket, but said it could only be the intake manifold gasket. Maybe I will call them and see what just intake manifold would cost, and if they agree that it might be the problem.

Right now, without knowing for sure, I will keep the Bars Head Gasket Sealer on the shelf. And I would be glad to go buy a genuine PCV Valve and another PCV Grommet from the dealer, if you think it would help.

Just went outside and checked and the old Motorcraft PCV valve is still in place in the valve cover grommet in the rear of the engine. So it has no trouble staying in place. I did notice the Autozone PCV Valve seem to fall into the hole.

Just called the purfect auto place. Guy says he remembers the picture, but that "That much blow by, I think it is lower in the engine" but "We would have to take it apart on top to see if the gasket is bad, etc".... Forgot to ask how much, but that is better left to an in person visit

I have pictures posted, that the link in my signature takes you to, that include a series that show what is involved in the lower intake manifold gasket job.
Looking at those pictures will show you what is involved.
I am guessing that the cost would be $450-$600.
At the same time, I would also have the "crossover pipe" (shown in my pictures) and the thermostat replaced, if they are original.
Of course, a good cleaning up of the EGR ports and IMRC "butterflies) is in order.

A good mechanic (that would not be me) can do some additional tests to diagnose whether the head gasket is defective.

The other leak that is very possible is the Front cover, aka timing cover, that I already mentioned.
I do not have pictures posted of that......as I have not done that job......and if I had to do it......I would have my shop do it......
The front cover has the water pump and the oil pump mounted on it.

I would not be driving the vehicle while it is leaking this much coolant into the engine, or you could end up with a lot of internal damage.....bearings, etc.

Hi MARZBX157,


can you send me or post the pictures of your oil catch can setup for ford winstar. Also where and the type you purchased it.
I am getting oil in the air intake and this seems to be the only solution left for me.

Also can you let me now if that solid thin small tube that connects to the back side of the flexible air intake rubber, is supposed to fit loose and not tight close fit. Mine seems to be very loosely connected and can drop out at easily, dont even need to pully it, just jiggling the rubber tube makes the small back side tube come out.