Low oil pressure on new engine install

I decided to make a simplifed thread here to tackle some ideas on this problem.

1995 3.8L just installed new remanned engine from truetestengines.com (aka ATK).... supposedly a GREAT company.

Main issue: Oil pressure (and/or level) light flickering after moderate driving for 30 minutes. Only flickers at stops in Drive or in Park. Oil level is ABOVE full mark on stick.

Engine came with new oil pump.

Engine has new oil pressure sending unit.

The shop manually installed oil pickup (which I suppose is the same as saying "screen")

Battery sat for 3 weeks not started and I don't know if they disconnected it while they had the engine out.

Alternator pulley's known for going bad on our vans (addressing a churping issue that SHOULD BE separate from this), but alternator has always been working fine and checked good a few months ago though maybe they messed it up during engine install?

Main questions are:

What is the most likely culprit to cause low oil pressure on a brand new engine installation given what I've said above?

What could the SHOP have messed up that would cause low oil pressure during this engine installation?

Could the screen have been installed WRONG some kind of way to restrict oil flow?

Are the oil pump and pressure relief valve together or physically separate and just COME together in one package?

Can the oil pump be installed right but the pressure relief valve wrong such to cause low oil pressure?

Can alternator or battery going bad cause low oil pressure light to flicker?

Could the camshaft position sensor synchronizer shaft be "out of whack" somehow causing low oil pressure?


Grasping at straws here cause while it is back at the shop again as of yesterday I want to be able to keep abreast possibilities myself such to helhp the shop work faster especially since it looks like they are now going to have to involve TrueTest (ATK) for AFTER install repair work.

I've taken an image of a '99 front cover complete with oil pump. I have marked the pressure relief valve area with an "X". You can see it belongs to the cover, not the pump. Below the metal cover/cap is a spring and a valve (ball?). I have just begun to clean this cover. Before reusing I will open and inspect the pump and the relief valve. Aftermarket pumps, complete with relief valves, are available.
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http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9789/pict0128wl8.th.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0128wl8.jpg)
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You will need to get a gauge reading to make sure low pressure is the problem..It could be as simple as a bad ground to the oil light sender. But I would check into making sure that the oil pressure is really low. Also don't take no chances until then. Take back to the place and make sure they verify the oil pressure..

I assume your 95 3.8L would be similar to my 2000 3.8L The driven gear
on the camshaft synchronizer drives the synchronizer vane that triggers
the sensor and also drives a shaft that rotates the oil pump. Just a thought,
if the flats on the shaft are worn or the gears are bad there could be some
slippage. These materials are hardened so that seems remote. This sounds simple, but I have seen the wrong oil filters installed on engines, something easy to check. A gauge reading after checking on the oil filter
would be the way to start.

The only oil pressure spec in my Haynes manual for years 1995-1998 3.8L engine hot
at 2500 rpm 40-60 psi. Pressure at idle is not addressed. If the oil level was significantly
above the full mark, the possiblility of the oil foaming and entrapping air would exist. This
could therotically lead to low pressure.

This is something that I would have the shop address.
They can check the battery to see if it is at the correct charge, clean connections (including ground to the chasis and engine), etc.

There have been posts about the oil pickup / strainer getting clogged with junk and causing low oil pressure....but that would be unlikely with your new engine.
I would expect that the shop would have eyeballed it before installing it to make sure that it was clear.

On my '96, it is normal for the oil level to be slightly over the crosshatch area on the dipstick....with 5 quarts and a filter change.
That is OK up to the bottom letter in the FULL lettering.
Any higher would be not so good.

This is something that I would have the shop address.
They can check the battery to see if it is at the correct charge, clean connections (including ground to the chasis and engine), etc.

There have been posts about the oil pickup / strainer getting clogged with junk and causing low oil pressure....but that would be unlikely with your new engine.
I would expect that the shop would have eyeballed it before installing it to make sure that it was clear.

On my '96, it is normal for the oil level to be slightly over the crosshatch area on the dipstick....with 5 quarts and a filter change.
That is OK up to the bottom letter in the FULL lettering.
Any higher would be not so good.
Thanks to all who've responded.... does ANYONE know what the oil pressure should be at idle and during driving? I have seen various posts all over about checking this, but NO ONE specifies a pressure range that is valid. ANYBODY?

Don't worry its at the shop, but I'm not content with letting them work out their own possibilities list as while they do actually do great work at the same time they don't seem to be able think of everything that a problem "could be".

They did test it and remarked it seemed LOW on the oil pressure, but wanted to verify the right pressure range themselves TODAY and were supposed to call me answering ALL of my questions I put on my list to them, but they didn't call me ONCE.

Wiswind - I suspect the oil passages of course should've been completely clear too and that this is a lesser possibilitiy than the oil pump being bad, battery, alternator, grounds etc... I'm dropping off a list of these things for them to look into for tomorrow and for them to check the battery and alternator conditions.

I registered the engine's warranty before the shop opened this morning so hopefully if the shop called the manufacturer its all in order with the paperwork.

Wiswind - I put on a new ground cable from the ALT to the frame a while back and when I did I noticed just EVER so slightly that the width of the cable end point which surrounds the bolt at the ALT was a MAYBE a tad wide causing possibly 1mm of space between the fastened cable end and the metal on the alternator itself. I shined a light from behind it to verify this space was there, but I gave it my MOST strength to tighten it as tight as it would go and surrounded the edge of the cable end to ALT metal with silicone thereafter to prevent moisture from getting in there if there was any small space (however so slight) left after I gave it all my man power. I know they disturbed this wire when they took the engine out because there is a NEW bolt there cause I think the old one was striped inside its seat and I swear the alternator arm that bolt is in looked ever so slightly BENT though the PULLEY still looks LEVEL as can be..... BUT I also have a new CHURP from the pulley system since they did all this work so MAYBE its that?

EDIT: Forgot to mention. I'm pretty damn sure the OIL was ABOVE the "F" on the stick.

I tried looking for a oil pressure specification on Alldata, but did not find one.
The pressure sensor is behind the power steering/alternator bracket.
I have it shown in one of my pictures, with the power steering bracket removed.

Alldata says that the oil pressure light may flicker slightly when the engine is at idle, but will go out with the engine at above idle rpms.
I seem to think that this is VERY rare......as I am sure that we would have a number of posts coming up all the time about a flickering oil pressure light.
I know that if I had that.....I would be installing a actual gauge, and I'll bet a few of the other regulars here would be doing the same.

The pressure regulator in 12Ounce's picture is replaced by drilling out a corresponding "plug" in the front cover (aka timing cover) and removing the regulator......put the new regulator in and install a new plug.
That is the process to change it with the cover installed on the vehicle.
I have no idea of how difficult that would actually be......how much stuff is in the way, etc.
Again......you may find something with a search on oil pressure, but failure of the regulator would again not be common....or there would be more posts.
Of course, in your case, I would NOT attempt the repair, as that is part of the new engine replacement warranty responsibility.
I still am of the thought, like your shop is, that the oil pressure is truely low, but as to why.....I don't know.
But, again, that is not your responsibility.....other than to get the vehicle back to the installing shop to have the issue addressed between them and the company that supplied the motor.

Replacement of the regulator is not something to be done with the cover installed. It easy enough to pluck out the regulator with a small bent-bar tool, if the front cover is removed as shown in photo. There is space ( a slot of sorts) along side the body of the regulator for this operation.

It not rare at all for an issue from a reman engine to come up. I helped a guy with his 1998 blazer when the engine came with a bad seal on his timing cover. That was a pain in the butt. Have to drop oil pan to get to it. Plus the engine came with a oil pan for a 4 wheel drive so it was deeper than the one with out 4 wheel drive. So that meant dropping engine mounts and jacking up motor. If they had the right oil pan that came with it. All would needed to be done is to drop oil pan. So they can have issues sometime. Sorry for your troubles though..

I too found it unusual that they would have the pressure regulator replacement instructions having you drill.
Removing the front cover is a MAJOR job as well.
In Searcherr's case, the repair would fall well within the responsibility of the supplier of the engine.

Well, actually drilling the sheet metal cap and then plucking it out with a punch or the like is a workable plan ... its just that drill chips make me uneasy, especially if they aren't necessary.

Considering the importance of this little spring ... I wouldn't wonder that it's failure has led to the failure of many engines. All it would take is one little crack.....

Yes, removing the front cover is a major job! You are well on the way to total engine dismantlement when it is done.

Is the metal plug visible in the 12ounce pix, I couldn't find it? I assume it is on the other side of the cover. I was going to suggest without seeing it, that instead of drilling a "pilot" hole into the plug, but instead poke a hole into it with a very sharp and fine punch, resulting with no "chips" going inside. Thoughts?

The white "X" is directly on the sheet metal plug ... maybe I didn't make it big enough? Click on the photo to enlarge.

When I get a free minute, I'll pluck it out and take another photo.

It not rare at all for an issue from a reman engine to come up. I helped a guy with his 1998 blazer when the engine came with a bad seal on his timing cover. That was a pain in the butt. Have to drop oil pan to get to it. Plus the engine came with a oil pan for a 4 wheel drive so it was deeper than the one with out 4 wheel drive. So that meant dropping engine mounts and jacking up motor. If they had the right oil pan that came with it. All would needed to be done is to drop oil pan. So they can have issues sometime. Sorry for your troubles though..
I would not have known that its NOT rare for a reman engine to have issues. I mean all the touting these remanner's do especially ATK or Jasper you'd think that it would just be like new as I thought it would be. I mean why would I even have to THINK about a regulator, oil pump, pressure relief, etc... after spending all that cash. Now its their f'in fault I probably have to wait another 2 weeks to get my damn van back. In the end it'll probably amount to 2 MONTHS out of commission. I'm just damn lucky I am in the situation i'm in right now to where I don't need transportation at the moment cause I can borrow my parent's vehicles or use my 2nd broke vehicle if I feel like finishing up repairs. LOL

On the note of what ya'll are talking about.... yeah its retarded to have to drill out ANYTHING on the vehicle to replace it. I don't quite understand the design thoughts behind such a thing.

Status on my van: After this ENTIRE week of waiting and after the guy having told me from the shop he'd call me the VERY NEXT morning with ALL my answers to ALL my questions (said this 4 times) I have STILL not had 1 single phone call from them. I can attest this to my belief that they are extremely embarrassed and PISSED off at the same time. They basically don't want to talk to me till they have answers or it all taken care of is the usual jest I get from them. But dammit I want an UPDATE without having to beg for 1.... especially if I'm going to have to PAY DOLLAR ONE FURTHER out of pocket.

I was refering to the "plug" that Wiswind was saying gets drilled out while the timing cover is still installed, which I now realize sounds like a new hole you have to make for the regulator repair. So my suggestion would not work if that is the case and drill chips doesn't sound good to me either, steel, aluminum, anything or even getting to it like Wiswind said. That is why I was refering to the outside of the cover, not the inside as 12ounce had marked the plug over the pressure regulator. Does that clear the mud?

Now the oil pressure issue should be rare. They are suppose to do a pressure test before it leaves the manufacture. I refer most of the time being a leaking oil gaskets or some nuts and bolts missing. They throw these things together fairly fast. I don't have an issue with them. If I were doing the work I would have gone over it with a fine tooth comb. A good shop should have some thing to prime and test oil pressure before they install. Heck we had one in high school auto mechanics.We use to test donated junk yard engines on a engine stand. Of course there there oil pumps ran off the distributor gear. Trust me I put a wrong size clutch in a car once. Just figured I got the right one. Now I double check 3x times check. I did not like pulling the trans out twice.

Now the oil pressure issue should be rare. They are suppose to do a pressure test before it leaves the manufacture. I refer most of the time being a leaking oil gaskets or some nuts and bolts missing. They throw these things together fairly fast. I don't have an issue with them. If I were doing the work I would have gone over it with a fine tooth comb. A good shop should have some thing to prime and test oil pressure before they install. Heck we had one in high school auto mechanics. We use to test donated junk yard engines on a engine stand. Of course there there oil pumps ran off the distributor gear. Trust me I put a wrong size clutch in a car once. Just figured I got the right one. Now I double check 3x times check. I did not like pulling the trans out twice.

Yeah I'd seriously doubt the shop ran the engine on a stand before installing it. It would've been very prudent of them to do so though especially because of what the situation is now. What boggles me though is that after all that work for 3 weeks they never once thought they should check the oil pressure ..... I mean its just common sense (or SHOULD BE) for a tech to do in that situation. I was thinking though that maybe the relief valve was getting stuck and that this might be causing the problem, but that doesn't make sense to me .... would make me think a reverse situation would happen IE: pressure buildup instead of low or no oil pressure. Still I wonder if some kind of relief valve malfunction in operation could cause it.... maybe the relief valve is WIDE open or something?.... though I don't see any oil leaks which I'd think there would be if the valve was wide open. Though I'm speculating because the fucking shop didn't call me once all week last week and now its gonna be Christmas Eve and Christmas and they won't be back till Wednesday I'm sure to even tell me whats going on. I still think it had to be a faulty oil pump... but we shall see.

There are many things that can cause low oil pressure. Just hope its the oil pump. The other would be internal. If the oil pressure were a few points high would not bother me. Every things all nice and tight after a rebuild. The low oil pressure would do to all the internal passages that could have something in it.

Yea I know the feeling when you take a car to a shop and they won't get back to you. After all the money you would think you would jump back in front of the line. Well thats not the case. They should be now working for free to find the problem. So that means they finish one job and use down time on your van. At least thats my thinking on it. If they find it to be a warranty issue and your warranty covers labor. Then you will more likely become a priority. I was thinking the flickering oil light would have been a ground issue. Again sorry for troubles.

I need some help here. I'm having problems liaison-ing between the shop and the remanufacturer of the engine. Can someone please verify what the engine oil pressure should be for my 1995 3.8L Ford Windstar in the following conditions:

Oil pressure at 750 - 1400rpms hot and cold idle
Oil pressure at 2500rpms hot

Please if someone could go measure this on a Windstar of 95 year that would be great, but 96 - 2003 is fine too. I need this information immediately so I can be armed to talk to the remanufacturer.

Wiswind - hope you have time to try this. Its my understanding the gauge would plop right on top the oil cap area.

Do ya'll think i could have low oil pressure cause of bad oil cap?

An oil cap would not cause any oil pressure issues, it is only necessary that it have a good seal so as to assure proper crankcase pressure, as well as keep the oil and vapors in.
There has to be either a problem with the oil pump or there is too much clearance in one or more bearings, rod or crankshaft. In any case, the rebuilder needs to check that out. I have a hard time believing that a newly rebuilt engine, done properly, would have low oil pressure, hot or cold.
As for measuring the pressure, it would have to be done with a gauge screwed into the oil pressure sender opening.

Could the screen/pickup have been installed WRONG some kind of way to restrict oil flow?

I am now the f'in liaison between the installer and the remanufacturer as they don't seem to be able to communicate well and we're going on 5 weeks with the van in the shop. The remanufacturer ensists it is NOT the oil pump as the engine was hot tested before it left their facility. If this is actually TRUE then it would make me look at the stuff that was manually done during the install...... like the scree/pickup - I don't know what they dude on the phone was telling me exactly, but something to the effect that the screen could be installed wrong in such a way that it would act like a sponge..... something to do with it not being seated right with the sealant... I dunno.... Anybody? Does that make sense at all that the screen could've been installed improperly to cause oil flow restriction in a new engine?

My shop had wondered on an outloud guess that maybe the engine installer had not replaced the valve train. I just can't believe this would be true with such a big name like ATK.. but maybe.

Did you buy a complete engine or just a "short block". I would think a complete engine would come with the oil pan in place ... covering the oil pick-up, which would already be installed. On a complete engine, the front cover would be in place complete with oil pump in-place. Why would your engine installer have to be fooling with the oil pick-up?

The only way I can think of to screw up installing a pick up is to (1) over tightened the bolts, breaking the seal, or (2) leaving out the mounting gasket. Both of these would allow the pump to pump air, not oil. I don't know of any sealant being required on the pick-up.

Did you buy a complete engine or just a "short block". I would think a complete engine would come with the oil pan in place ... covering the oil pick-up, which would already be installed. On a complete engine, the front cover would be in place complete with oil pump in-place. Why would your engine installer have to be fooling with the oil pick-up?

The only way I can think of to screw up installing a pick up is to (1) over tightened the bolts, breaking the seal, or (2) leaving out the mounting gasket. Both of these would allow the pump to pump air, not oil. I don't know of any sealant being required on the pick-up.

It was/is a long block. The oil pick-up did not come with the engine and there was a BRIGHT GREEN poster card in that area telling the tech to obtain and install one. I have no knowledge of why it would've come this way. You are the 1st person thats told me for it to not come with a pickup and the pan already on all in the crate that its not normal business to ship it that way.

Over-tightened bolts, breaking the seal, and leaving out the mounting gasket. Gotcha. So we're for sure there is a SEAL on that oil pickup? I haven't the faintest on that thing cause I'd never heard of one till this issue.

It is possible the oil pump was in place already, but I'm not sure. I guess I'll ask that too.

If it was a "block", short or long, I guess the oil pan and the pick-up would have been left off intentionally. This would have shortened the vertical height for crating/shipping purposes, I suppose. A complete engine would be different.

I don't know how the manufacturer could have run such a incomplete engine as a bench-test. But I guess its possible ... sounds like a lot of extra effort.

My '99 has a rather conventional looking flat gasket on the pick-up. Some engines use an o-ring instead.

Sorry for the delay in responding.
I was traveling Thursday, and moving snow around Friday after work.

If it was a long block that did not include the pan and pick-up, then the shop most likely moved those from your old engine.
It is not unusual for the screen on the pick-up to become clogged with junk, and it must be cleaned prior to installation.
I would expect the shop to be competent in cleaning and correctly installing it....but mistakes do happen.

I was thinking that this was a complete engine, so I don't know what all was included with the new block......and what all they would have moved from the old engine.

The frustrating thing about reading this is.......it should work when they give it back to you.....and if it does not.....then they (the shop and the engine company) should make it right.
Is the engine company one that the shop normally deals with?

I do not have a pressure gauge to check oil pressure.
The only place that I know to do this would be where the pressure sending unit is located, under/behind the power steering / alternator bracket.
I looked at alldatadiy and did not find a oil pressure specification.
I do know that it would be higher with a cold engine than with a warm one, as the oil is thicker when cold.

The pressure at the oil fill cap would actually be a slight vaccum.
If you have pressure there, then you would most likely have a problem like excessive blow by from the valve seals.
The oil fill cap would be the ambient crankcase pressure, which, as I mention, should be a very slight vaccum, as the PCV valve is drawing air out the rear valve cover on your '95......which is being replaced by air coming into the front valve cover through the line that goes from the front valve cover to the big hose that goes between the throttle body and the air filter/MAF.

The 1998 Windstar Ford Service Manual specification for the 3.8L engine reads "Oil Pressure (Hot 2500 RPM) 40-60 psi". The 1995 Taurus Ford Service Manual specification for the 3.8L engine is identical. No oil pressure at idle is specified in either manual.

Sorry for the delay in responding.
I was traveling Thursday, and moving snow around Friday after work.

If it was a long block that did not include the pan and pick-up, then the shop most likely moved those from your old engine.
It is not unusual for the screen on the pick-up to become clogged with junk, and it must be cleaned prior to installation.
I would expect the shop to be competent in cleaning and correctly installing it....but mistakes do happen.

I was thinking that this was a complete engine, so I don't know what all was included with the new block......and what all they would have moved from the old engine.

The frustrating thing about reading this is.......it should work when they give it back to you.....and if it does not.....then they (the shop and the engine company) should make it right.
Is the engine company one that the shop normally deals with?

I do not have a pressure gauge to check oil pressure.
The only place that I know to do this would be where the pressure sending unit is located, under/behind the power steering / alternator bracket.
I looked at alldatadiy and did not find a oil pressure specification.
I do know that it would be higher with a cold engine than with a warm one, as the oil is thicker when cold.

The pressure at the oil fill cap would actually be a slight vaccum.
If you have pressure there, then you would most likely have a problem like excessive blow by from the valve seals.
The oil fill cap would be the ambient crankcase pressure, which, as I mention, should be a very slight vaccum, as the PCV valve is drawing air out the rear valve cover on your '95......which is being replaced by air coming into the front valve cover through the line that goes from the front valve cover to the big hose that goes between the throttle body and the air filter/MAF.

No problem on not responding fast. I've been really sick.

Ok, this was/is a complete LONG BLOCK as far as I'm concerned. All that needed to be bought for it was a pilot bushing and the oil pickup which the shop DID BUY NEW and did NOT transfer from the old engine.

The only other things that weren't with the new engine were SENSORS, external parts like alternator, power steering, pulleys, etc... which is standard for moving over as far as I'm concerned. The only internal stuff was what I mentioned in the paragraph above.

ATK is the name of the company (www.atkna.com) that I bought from and NO it is not the company that my shop uses. They wanted me to get JASPER and while I would've loved to it was another $1300 more. I know the story yada yada... look at me now having problems and would've been worth it... yada yada.. but ya know what.... NO. It wouldn't have been worth it to me to spend another $1300 even though its not running right cause at this point the shop and the engine co are finally working together after nearly 2 f'in weeks to fix the problem.

After they put a gauge on the thing and tested it out it turns out that at idle after you've warmed up the oil quite a bit on the interstate and then coming to a stop in town traffic the pressure is going down to 10 psi and then the engine starts tapping..... BUT on the interstate or regular highway its getting up to freaking 90 PSI. The SHOP and the ENGINE CO agree that this is the symptoms of a bad front timing cover which also includes the OIL PUMP and/or possible debris caught in the cover. MY shop PROBED the engine co and found out they DO NOT REPLACE that cover, but they do SPEC IT OUT (i guess that means measure stuff and make sure its up to spec and/or clean it well too, but apparently they didn't). So the plan now is to remove the front timing cover and oil pump assembly and replace it with a new one from Ford at the ENGINE CO's expense. Had they done their damn job properly to begin with this would of course be unnecessary.

I do have to agree with what someone said in this page though... that how could they have HOT TESTED the engine if they didn't have the pan and if they did why wouldn't they just send it along? WEIRD... unless they just have a TEST PAN that they keep on hand for such use.

What gets me though is that the SHOP ever released the van to me in this condition and I think the main reason why is because it is hard to get a pressure tester in that oil sending unit area just to read the pressure.

As for the other issues, the churping, scraping a/c clutch, pulling to the left, etc.. they haven't said anything I HOPE only because the engine issue is the main issue to finish first.

We shall see. I will post back.

The 1998 Windstar Ford Service Manual specification for the 3.8L engine reads "Oil Pressure (Hot 2500 RPM) 40-60 psi". The 1995 Taurus Ford Service Manual specification for the 3.8L engine is identical. No oil pressure at idle is specified in either manual.

Thank you Seeler. Since this issue seemed to be illuding me and I have since realized no one wanted to answer it because it isn't a specific number it stays at rather than a range it'll be within here is what I found by calling 3 different Ford dealerships and 1 local good shop other than the one my van is at:

40 - 125 psi hot at idle 2500 rpms - veterans ford (hard to believe it would go that high imho)

60psi at any rpms - lamarque ford (riiiiiight. sure.)

30 - 50 psi - Allstar Ford/Lincoln/Mercury; minimum 25 psi; shouldn't go beyond 60-80 psi; (sounded like they really knew)

at warm cruising speed 2000 - 2500rpms - other trusted shop
40 - 60psi (sounded like they really knew)

SUMMARY: Oil Pressure should be within 30 - 60 psi to be safe. 10 is way too low.

I agree though with the 40 - 60 and would prefer that range. 30 is fine by me though too as long as it doesn't go lower.

Trusted shop said I could do this too and see if it would fix the issue, but noted I shouldn't have to on a new engine:

Last resort:

50 weight oil & Lucas oil treatment (thickens the oil) maybe after 1 or 2 oil changes it'll go away and can use regular oil without the treatment or 50 weight

see what happens

if it runs good and oil pressure runs good just keep it that way


Though I would rather not do something that would seem to MASK a problem. I'm glad the engine co and my shop finally seem to be connecting to get this stuff resolved. It took a lot of doing and finally me threatening to have my lawyer call them next week if they wouldn't call the shop back immediately. The shop was busy and said to call back and then the engine co kept saying the same thing so I was stuck in the middle the whole damn time.

Thank you Seeler. Since this issue seemed to be illuding me and I have since realized no one wanted to answer it because it isn't a specific number it stays at rather than a range it'll be within here is what I found by calling 3 different Ford dealerships and 1 local good shop other than the one my van is at:

40 - 125 psi hot at idle 2500 rpms - veterans ford (hard to believe it would go that high imho)

60psi at any rpms - lamarque ford (riiiiiight. sure.)

30 - 50 psi - Allstar Ford/Lincoln/Mercury; minimum 25 psi; shouldn't go beyond 60-80 psi; (sounded like they really knew)

at warm cruising speed 2000 - 2500rpms - other trusted shop
40 - 60psi (sounded like they really knew)

SUMMARY: Oil Pressure should be within 30 - 60 psi to be safe. 10 is way too low.

I agree though with the 40 - 60 and would prefer that range. 30 is fine by me though too as long as it doesn't go lower.

Trusted shop said I could do this too and see if it would fix the issue, but noted I shouldn't have to on a new engine:

Last resort:

50 weight oil & Lucas oil treatment (thickens the oil) maybe after 1 or 2 oil changes it'll go away and can use regular oil without the treatment or 50 weight

see what happens

if it runs good and oil pressure runs good just keep it that way


Though I would rather not do something that would seem to MASK a problem. I'm glad the engine co and my shop finally seem to be connecting to get this stuff resolved. It took a lot of doing and finally me threatening to have my lawyer call them next week if they wouldn't call the shop back immediately. The shop was busy and said to call back and then the engine co kept saying the same thing so I was stuck in the middle the whole damn time.

Best thing is if they will swap out for another engine,and pay for all labor.
If it was tapping and low oil psi. The engine you have now is in for a early retirement down the road. I would make them send another engine asap. Pay for cost of labor. Less headache down the road. Oh also shipping as well.
Good luck with it into the NEW YEAR.

If I were the owner/manager of the engine company, I would be wanting to send another engine for 2 reasons.
1. Customer satisfaction.......confidence in the product.
2. To get THIS unit back and find out what when wrong with this particular unit...as this may help me improve my process.

I agree with both of ya'll, but I asked at what point do they just send another engine and he said they'd have to see and wouldn't tell me if there was a dollar amount of labor to be reached involved before they'd decide to send another.

The van's only been driven about 20 miles in the condition it was in and the guy on the phone claims 10psi was plenty enough pressure to keep it from damage, though my shop and everyone else I've talked to does not agree that 10psi is enough for normal engine operation. Still, since I caught it fast and did not do any "strain" or "taxing" type driving with it and on the brief 5 minutes it was on the interstate the pressure was 80-90psi according to what they've told me which tells me it was well lubricated at higher idle and lubricated, but not fast enough during low idle. I would like a new engine too and I can beg for it, but I will be satisfied if this front timing cover and oil pump resolves everything as far as the correct pressure range goes. Does this sound logical ?

IF REPLACING THAT STUFF DOES NOT FIX IT THEN YES, I WILL BE DEMANDING A NEW ENGINE or threaten to file suit.

As far as rep and customer service goes Wiswind, I think the likes of Jasper are much more concerned with that than ATKNA.com. These guys seem to be like lawyerish-tech guys dancing on the edge of specs and trying to "comfort" the situation to tame the upset customer down into thinking that whats going on isn't as bad as it seems when in fact it is. I'm wise to that type of bs tactic and believe me I won't go down without a fight no matter how much time this takes me. I have another car so I'm not too worried about transportation at the moment, but in a few months I will need the van for hauling. If worst comes to worst I'll by an engine from Jasper and charge it and in the suit I'll sue for interest over period of months on the credit card debt, mental anguish if possible, time lost for not using the van per day, and I'll find enough to add to the list.

For those of you who've been following my horrible life since I broke down in my Windstar in October 2007 it has now finally gotten as bad as it can get. The engine co. is being very shady.

I need help with keywords or the TYPE of lawyer that would handle a suit for a case upwards from $3000 regarding this engine matter.

Basically ATK that authorized the oil pump and housing repair because they said they'd pay for it nows claims they WILL NOT pay for it because it did not resolve the pressure issue in the engine. This means I am out ALL of the R&R expense for the engine and an additional $500 for the oil pump/housing repair and other analysis including Discharging the damn A/C system which I was going to avoid... but was unavoidable cause of the pressure test needed with the master gauge at the oil sending unit location.

So if anyone knows.... please... what type of lawyer am I looking for here. I am in Southern Louisiana (New ORleans area) so if anyone knows anyone specific down here that would handle this for me I'd really appreciate it.

I am VERY SORRY to hear of this.
It is NOT your responsibility to figure out what is wrong with THEIR product.
You will need to look into the consumer protection laws in your state, as they vary from state to state.
How they can "approve" and then change their mind on a repair is beyond me.

Now, if you paid with credit card (the engine company), then you have some avenues there.

Also, the BBB in BOTH your area AND where the engine company is located.

Your shop should not have to eat the cost either.
They should take the engine back....and send you another.

Low oil pressure is a basic issue.....from what you have stated, your shop would be responsible for the pickup tube and screen.......but the REST of the motor would be the responsibility of the engine company
I don't know of anything else that your shop could have messed up.

As far as any action.......you will need to look into the laws in your state.....ask your trusted shop......it does not sound like they are at fault.....
Ask your local BBB for guidence

I am VERY SORRY to hear of this.
It is NOT your responsibility to figure out what is wrong with THEIR product.
You will need to look into the consumer protection laws in your state, as they vary from state to state.
How they can "approve" and then change their mind on a repair is beyond me.

Now, if you paid with credit card (the engine company), then you have some avenues there.

Also, the BBB in BOTH your area AND where the engine company is located.

Your shop should not have to eat the cost either.
They should take the engine back....and send you another.

Low oil pressure is a basic issue.....from what you have stated, your shop would be responsible for the pickup tube and screen.......but the REST of the motor would be the responsibility of the engine company
I don't know of anything else that your shop could have messed up.

As far as any action.......you will need to look into the laws in your state.....ask your trusted shop......it does not sound like they are at fault.....
Ask your local BBB for guidence

I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER ENGINE FROM ATK EVER. I WANT MY MONEY BACK AND TO START FRESH PERIOD.

I will contact the BBB for advice and lookup some options tonight. It seems that I must use an attorney in my county/parish or one in the engine company's county in CA.

I was thinking about the oil pump/housing issue and it turns out the shop DID NOT replace the timing cover cause of some reason... I think because they said it looked like it'd been machined or replaced already whereas initially they thought it hadn't. Anyway, I was thinking further today and I'm pretty sure I recall now that ATK said they'd pay for the parts and labor of the repair if it fixed the problem, but at the same time this was also their suggestion for trying to rectify the issue which it did not. Quite a convenient procedure manual they have there for recommending an estimated guess for fixing something and then backing away when it doesn't resolve the issue. Still, I believe now I knew it was a gamble and we were going to take the plunge/risk and looks like we lost on that unless they actually DO get the engine and admit up front that it was their mess up. Then I get paid the labor costs for everything except the initial uninstall which I guess is fair considering installation of a new engine is only going to cost me an install charge now if ATK DOES refund me all that labor.

Did the auto shop buy the engine from Auto Krap or did you? If they did, then wouldn't the shop be the one to take care of all of this? You wouldn't have to work out what labor you have to pay for and what atk needs to pick up and they would also be the ones to deal with atk on their deceptive "remedy" of the oil problem. Do you even have a condition of sale, warranty, installation requirements that came with the engine? Just what did they obligate themselves to in their warranty to you? Wiswind does have a very good point that if you used a credit card, you can threaten atk that you are going to have the charges reversed and go ahead and get in touch with your credit card company and find out how much they can help you. At least you will know what that direction will take you. See how much of all the expenses you can take off your card that way. Also see what you owe the shop and what they can do for you and if need be negotiate with them. Good luck

Be forceful with the credit card company. They will not want to do what they have pledged to do either ... no matter what the tv advertising implies. They will suddenly want to talk about "resolution" between you and the thiefs. But if you force the issue, they have more reputation to risk than anyone else you are involved with, they will/can help you recover your money. But don't delay.

The crooks have your money ... in their minds it is now "theirs", not "yours".

I'd like some people's opinions on the video of the engine running. Here are the links which you'll need to right click and download (Save Target As or Save Link As after you right click them):

1. Engine 30 (almost) min video - 100 MB download (http://www.thinkrolland.com/atk/ATK-EngineInstalledNotRunningRight.wmv)

2. 2 vid clips and Digital photos of engine running in bad state (http://www.thinkrolland.com/atk/ATK-EngineInstalledNotRunningRight.zip)

I'm very curious to ya'lls opinions of what you hear as the pressure goes to the lowest PSI point which is around 10 - 14 psi.

Just for everyone's future reference I finally found my 95 Windstar repair manual on CD-ROM and NOTE the proper Engine oil pressure:

http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/EngineOilPressure1995Windstar3.8LEngine.jpg

Thanks for reminding me about the credit card thing. I will DEFINITELY IMMEDIATELY have the charge removed if they do not find Defect.

As of last Thursday (1/17/08) I prepared a DVD with a 30 minute video of the engine running badly, 2 digi cam video clips, and many digital photos of the van with the master pressure gauge hooked up to where the oil sending unit normally would go. You can very clearly hear the engine is not running right (loud tapping at idle) and note the pressure is not as it should be.

Along with all the video/photos I have ALL documentation including a letter from the shop signed by the shop stating we agree the engine is defective and a statement of their opinion of what I should be awarded, receipts, time, repair, etc.. I have a VERY good case against them.

I've already spoken to 2 attornies and am aware of the best way to go with this for speed and likelihood of getting my money back fastest which is Small Claims Court which goes up to $3000 and is fast whereas the next higher court limits at $20k and takes a lot longer to finish cases according to what I was told. Currently I am out over the 3k mark with this whole debacle, but its not enough to justify the trouble and wait of the higher district court. The best thing both attornies told me was that the law states before suing them I have to give them a chance to repair the product in order to have a case against them. However, I have already been told by ATK that if they DO FIND DEFECT they will refund the cost of the engine and all labor/repair $$$ spent on installation, removal, and troubleshooting. THATS A BIG "IF".

After I prepared the DVD and assorted documents and 1 BIG BOLD TEXT document in 48 size FONT "TEST THE ENGINE FOR A MINIMUM 30 MINUTES TO REPRODUCE THE PROBLEM" I gave the shop a DVD for their reference, Sent 1 with docs to the ATK claims guy who I've been dealing with, and attached the same stuff I sent to the claims guy in a ziploc bag in the engine valley with a security tie with the BOLD FACE msg on BOTH sides of the Bag for them to do 30 minutes of testing at least and to watch the DVD. So NOW EVERYBODY'S INFORMED ! LOL - I'm hoping once they see everything I documented, videoed and snapshot that they will NOT even so much as hint to try and mess with me. I mean I realize this company has MILLIONS of dollars (likely) and I'm just a peon with a VAN engine to them, but I don't intend to sit down and take any kind of bs. SO far they've done as they said and I don't know if I've already said this, but I looked them up on the BBB and they have a good rating. Its not the BEST, but its high up and enough for the BBB to feel confident they will do right by the customer.

I watched your 30 miniute video.

There is definately something wrong (as if you need my confirmation!). The high pressure (90 psi) doesn't bother me so much, but obviously that pressure should NEVER drop below 30 psi.

My Ford book give the same range for the oil pressure in the '96. I didn't notice that you checked it at the specified RPM in the video.

My experience is very limited, but I can only guess at two general causes for your problem... either the bearings (main or rod) are not toleranced right thereby giving good pressure when the oil is cold and thick but low once it heats up, or there is a parasitic leak that opens up as the engine gets hot.

I once had an engine (on a 4-cyln gasoline Ford farm tractor) that had good oil pressure on cold start, but it dropped through the floor at temperature. It would recovery at RPM. This was resolved when the engine was rebuilt with new rings and new bearings, and the engine maintained >30 psi at all RPMs.

Here is the failure analysis report I got back from ATK just today. I have removed personal information on both sides (just fyi):
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 29 11:40 2008 ATK North America, Page 1


Atk North America Claim#
Product Failure Analysis Report

Thank you for submitting you ATK Product for inspection. Below
Please find the failure analysis report for your warranty claim.

*** ALL PRODUCT WILL BE HELD FOR 60 DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THIS REPORT ***

Administrator:

Claim#:
Part#: DFM7
Miles: 20
Months: 1
Engine#: Z703246


- -

Inspection Date: 01/28/08
Claim Status: Not Approved

Reported Failure:
Oil light on veh is flickering at warm idle. shop replaced oil sending unit
.attempted to reach shop/tech. too busy. left message on retail cell# v.mai

Inspectors Findings
Received engine with timing cover and oil pump.

All bearings not worn, clearances within limits. All lifters checked okay
with proper bleed down rate, all gallery plugs present.
Piston/cyl. wall .0023", cam bearings .0023", balance shaft bearings
.0015", main bearings .0023", crank end-play .004", rod bearings .0022",
rod side clearance .0085", oil pump gear to housing .003", gear to gear
.009", gear body .003".


No defect found to cause reported problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my response to ATK which I will only send once I see that my credit card has been credited for the cost of the engine itself which ATK says is already in process. tomj76 - You gave me the idea for a couple of the questions. Let me know if I asked ATK the wrong way:

ATK Claims rep,

I realize you are just the middle man in all this so don't take this personally when I say that this is very disconcerting. I read the report (thank you for sending it via email) and all I see is a dance around what the actual problem was/is with that engine. There was not a single mention of the oil pressure in the inspection report, nor mention of the inspection personnel reading my documentation or viewing the dvd of the engine running which were crucial, and finally the method of testing was not revealed.

I REQUIRE the following questions be answered:

1. On 1/28/08 at your ATK inspection facility what was the the oil pressure at cold idle? What was the HOT oil pressure at 2500 rpms after 30 minutes of running the engine? What was the oil pressure at warm idle (approximately 750-800 rpms) after running the engine in excess of 30 minutes regardless of RPMs?


2. On 1/28/08 at your ATK inspection facility was the engine test run for a minimum 30 minutes with a master pressure test gauge attached to it at the oil sending unti orifice? If so what oil pressure did you observe at cold, warm, and fully hot idle during the test you were supposed to perform?


3. Did you and your inspection staff view the attached DVD of the engine running improperly with the master pressure test gauge attached to it observing it running in the defective manner that the DVD video shows?

4. Did you and your inspection staff read the documentation sent with the faulty engine Z703246? The same documentation was sent to you via FedEx and email on 1/17/2008.

5. What method of testing the engine at cold and warm full operating temperature was used? Did the engine run on its own with the master oil pressure gauge attached or was it machine assisted? Please answer both questions in detail and assume I can talk "engineer" in your response.

6. Was the tolerance of the main and rod bearings tested/measured to verify the proper tolerances? If so what were the test results?

7. Were any parasitic leaks found that may have been opening up after the engine got to full operating (hot) temperature?

I will verify the accuracy of the reported limits from your ATK inspection report.

Overall I am not satisfied with ATK's inspection report and lack of response regarding the DVD and documentation I sent with the engine and I find it appauling that the oil pressure issue was not even mentioned once in the inspection report. I took great care and time in preparing the DVD and documentation and at the very least it could've been viewed or commented on as it contained the actual engine problem as it was running. In my humble opinion the inspection report not containing mention of the oil pressure tested at various RPMs is absolutely absurd as it applies specifically to the problem with the engine in question and personally I view the ingore of this information as an evasive tactic on ATK's part such to avoid fulfilling the warranty the company so proudly stands by. ATK's BBB reputation is sure to go down a percent or point because I will soon file a complaint report with them.


Thanks for letting me know the refund is going through and for your information the core deposit finally made it back to my credit card. The only amount disputed now is of course the wasted labor to install the defective ATK engine which ATK now claims was/is in proper working order which is absolutely false.

It is my advice to you and to ATK that the engine not be dismantled or melted down as it is now a necessary piece of a court case. The above questions must be answered as they are part of the discovery process of forthcoming litigation. Furthermore as I feel very confident I will win my case in court because of the wrongdoing committed here by ATK I would humbly advise ATK simply award me the labor/parts costs indicated on the letter with filename "DiagnosticAutoRepairSignedLetterToATK-0001.pdf" of 1/17/2008 because the litigation process is going to cost your company at least what I asked for ($2112.24) to begin with.


I will be waiting for a response to questions 1 - 7 above.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So does that about cover it?

Anyone can help me verify the "Inspectors Findings"? I really need to verify those for sure. I'll be looking around too, but if anyone can help me out with that I'd really appreciate it. Also, some of what they abbreviated there I want to be sure of what those measurements stand for. I guess all of those measurements are "limits" of space between the parts they mention right?

I'm confused... the report says:

>Claim Status: Not Approved
>...
>No defect found to cause reported problem.

Then you said:
>once I see that my credit card has been credited for the cost of the engine itself which ATK says is already in process.

If they are refunding your money, are they doing so despite the results of the analysis?

As far as the terms in the report...
gallery plugs are pipe fitting plugs put in holes made during manufacturing that need to be plugged for operation. For example, the oil passages for the lifters are drilled out from the ends, then openings at the ends are plugged to keep oil inside the oil passage.

The reports states the main bearing and rod bearings are not worn, which is checked by measuring clearance. The clearance measurements for each bearing are given in the list (i.e. main is 0.0023") You should be able to get the limits from a Ford manual or a Haynes manual. However, I find it interesting that there isn't a figure for each of the four main bearings on the crankshaft, each of the four cam bearings, each of the six rod bears.. etc.

While this is a good first order evaluation of the engine, there is clearly a problem that needs further investigation. Personally, when my company receives returned hardware, we first do a non-invasive inspection, then do testing of the device, and then, if warranted, we disassemble the part for internal inspection. ATK's disassembly/reassembly of the engine runs the risk of 'fixing' the problem without ever observing it.

I take it that they are willing to refund the price of the motor, but you're attempting to recover the labor costs associated with installing and removing it. Did your attorney advise you that they would be able to recover those costs for ATK? What role does your mechanic play in this? Is ATK a vendor they recommended? If so, they should be willing to install a replacement without charging additional labor.

I think I would focus on the primary issue... the video shows the problem that you observed and the mechanics at the shop traced it to the engine itself. Other than the mechanical inspection, what evidence can they offer that the engine does operate properly? I'd stay away from the technical details. To summarize, 1) The engine did not operate properly as shown in the video; 2) Given their claim that the engine is OK, can they show that it did operate properly after it was returned.

I have compared the reported measurements from ATK to the following chart from my repair cd-rom. What I really need help on is the vague and abbreviated terminology used in the reported measurements to whats in the chart. And finally anyone who has thoughts to offer on what I'm about to show I'd really appreciate it.... especially on the oil pump radial and main bearing measurements:
http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/ChartToCompareATKInspectionResults.jpg

Assumption: I'm assuming all the presented measurements from the ATK report are "clearance" (space between) values. Anyone think differently please let me know.

ATK inspection results | Findings matched from chart above

Piston/cyl. wall .0023" | Piston-to-bore Clearance (0.0014 - 0.0032 In.)

cam bearings .0023" | Journal to bearing clearance (0.001-0.003 In.)

balance shaft bearings .0015" | *Couldn't find it*

main bearings .0023" | Main bearings - Clearance to crankshaft - Desired: (0.001 - 0.0014 In.) Allowable: (0.0005 - 0.0023 In.)

crank end-play .004" | Crankshaft end play (0.004 - 0.008 In.)

rod bearings .0022" | Connecting rod bearings - Clearance to Crankshaft - Desired: (0.001 - 0.014 In.) Allowable: (0.00086 - 0.0027 In.)

rod side clearance .0085" | Side Clearance (assembled to Crank) - Standard: (0.0047 - 0.0114 In.) - Service Limit: (0.0.14 In Max)

oil pump gear to housing .003" | Drive shaft to housing Clearance (0.0030 - 0.0015 In.)

gear to gear .009" | Idler Shaft to Idler Gear Clearance (0.0017 - 0.0005 In.)

gear body .003" | Oil Pump Gear Radial Clearance (Idler and Drive) (0.0055 - 0.002 In.)

Did I match up my findings and the ATK results properly? If so it leads me to the following thoughts:

Cam bearing clearance is within 0.0007" of being out of spec, but at .0023" is within spec of (0.001-0.003 In.)

Rod bearing clearance is at the upper end of ALLOWABLE spec, but not in DESIRED spec and you'd think that if you remanufacture an engine that you'd have everything in the DESIRED spec range wouldn't you? Connecting rod bearings - Clearance to Crankshaft - Desired: (0.001 - 0.014 In.) Allowable: (0.00086 - 0.0027 In.) and its at .0022" - Do ya'll think that would contribute to the problem I've been having with the low oil pressure?

Main bearings were at .0023" | Clearance to crankshaft - Desired: (0.001 - 0.0014 In.) Allowable: (0.0005 - 0.0023 In.); This clearly shows the main bearing clearance being at the upper end of allowable on the verge of being out of spec. Did they use the wrong bearings? Tolerances wrong?

Rod side clearance was .0085" | Side Clearance (assembled to Crank) - Standard: (0.0047 - 0.0114 In.) - Service Limit: (0.014 In Max) - at .0085" its 0.0029 from being at the upper STANDARD limit though I don't know if this means anything or not. Might just be within a good range.

Gear body .003" | Oil Pump Gear Radial Clearance (Idler and Drive) (0.0055 - 0.002 In.) - If I've matched this one up right it seems to be out of spec by 0.001" too much.

Oil pump gear to housing .003" | Drive shaft to housing Clearance (0.0030 - 0.0015 In.) - Seems this is at the upper limit of the spec, but maybe doesn't matter?

Gear to gear .009" | Idler Shaft to Idler Gear Clearance (0.0017 - 0.0005 In.) - If I have matched this up properly this would seem out of spec the most by 0.0073" too much. I think I have matched this up properly as there are no other descriptions/numbers that seem to match or come as close. If this is indicating spacing between gears wouldn't this extra space cause the oil pump to NOT turn as fast or spin at the right revolutions for a given engine RPM?

FYI - If anyone wants to compare or look up the values I've found if I've matched things up wrong and if someone can find the Balance shaft bearing specification I've put it all in a PDF for easy reference: http://www.thinkrolland.com/images/externallylinked/Windstar3_8L-1995-GeneralSpecificationsEngine.pdf

I'm confused... the report says:

>Claim Status: Not Approved
>...
>No defect found to cause reported problem.

Then you said:
>once I see that my credit card has been credited for the cost of the engine itself which ATK says is already in process.

If they are refunding your money, are they doing so despite the results of the analysis?

As far as the terms in the report...
gallery plugs are pipe fitting plugs put in holes made during manufacturing that need to be plugged for operation. For example, the oil passages for the lifters are drilled out from the ends, then openings at the ends are plugged to keep oil inside the oil passage.

The reports states the main bearing and rod bearings are not worn, which is checked by measuring clearance. The clearance measurements for each bearing are given in the list (i.e. main is 0.0023") You should be able to get the limits from a Ford manual or a Haynes manual. However, I find it interesting that there isn't a figure for each of the four main bearings on the crankshaft, each of the four cam bearings, each of the six rod bears.. etc.

While this is a good first order evaluation of the engine, there is clearly a problem that needs further investigation. Personally, when my company receives returned hardware, we first do a non-invasive inspection, then do testing of the device, and then, if warranted, we disassemble the part for internal inspection. ATK's disassembly/reassembly of the engine runs the risk of 'fixing' the problem without ever observing it.

I take it that they are willing to refund the price of the motor, but you're attempting to recover the labor costs associated with installing and removing it. Did your attorney advise you that they would be able to recover those costs for ATK? What role does your mechanic play in this? Is ATK a vendor they recommended? If so, they should be willing to install a replacement without charging additional labor.

I think I would focus on the primary issue... the video shows the problem that you observed and the mechanics at the shop traced it to the engine itself. Other than the mechanical inspection, what evidence can they offer that the engine does operate properly? I'd stay away from the technical details. To summarize, 1) The engine did not operate properly as shown in the video; 2) Given their claim that the engine is OK, can they show that it did operate properly after it was returned.


Tom - I like your thoughts. Thats why I love bouncing stuff off people.

Yes, they are refunding my money despite the results of the analysis. Thats a good point you brought up cause it makes it sound fishy aye? This would seem to match what they've said before on the phone to me, "We've had problems with the 3.8's in the past." Since their warranty does NOT state (at least I don't think it does) they'd refund the full price of the engine I would think this would give me some ammo in court huh? I mean I know it could look like a good faith gesture from them too, but at the same time they are bailing out on all the other monetary damages caused by this.

Thanks for helping with the definitions.

Here: "However, I find it interesting that there isn't a figure for each of the four main bearings on the crankshaft, each of the four cam bearings, each of the six rod bears.. etc." - I wouldn't have known to think that. Thanks again. I will add this to my rebuttal email before I send it out.

Yes, I'm attempting to recover parts/labor caused by installing their defective engine. I don't have an attorney. I just got advice from 2 of them. Apparently this is too small for attornies to take and I was nicely advised its not worth their or my time cause of the cost that would be involved and its too high a risk for them to just do on contingency. In any case he did say I could collect related costs and would be best trying small claims court as its a lot faster and probably my best chance at success. I'll be looking into that today.

My installer/shop/mechanic advises against ATK, but they only advise using 1 remanufacturer: Jasper. Thats the other thing thats even worse about all of this. I told my installer who I was buying from and they didn't know the name. It was TrueTestEngines.com whose web site is now offline because DURING MY ENGINE PURCHASE THEY WERE BEING BOUGHT BY ATK. Since the engine manufacturer true name wasn't known till after the engine arrived I couldn't bounce that off the mechanic. Later on after the engine was installed they told me their opinion of ATK was NOT good and the guy who'd installed it had said he used to have trouble with their engines at another shop he worked at. I DO HOWEVER HAVE THE SHOP ON MY SIDE. THEY COMPLETELY AGREE THE ENGINE WAS FAULTY AND WILL SUPPORT IT IN COURT IF NEED BE. They've already said so. Either way I'm pretty sure the shop is going to work with me on the end bill, but I'm not going to let them get ripped off by this mishap either. I've got a good relationship with them.

I think you made my day though with the last paragraph. This is why I'm glad I'm so thorough. The video will probably save my ass. You are right. I need to focus on the simple matter that the engine wasn't functioning properly and the why is simply bad oil pressure which can only be due to internal engine faults. I just need to focus on that simple argument in court and be READY with as many details as necessary if I need them.

In any case if anyone on here has time to inspect those measurements and tell me if they mean anything to you I'd ALSO really appreciate that. I'm gonna have to send you guys some pizza/beers later ! lol

RESOLUTION!!! At the threat of a lawsuit after I asked them who is their "Agent for Service of Process" (who do I serve papers to?) ATK came back at me a day or so later from that question and after I'd told them there is no way anyone could watch that DVD that I'd provided and say that engine is functioning properly I was made an offer to settle. As part of the offer I had to sign a legal release form stating the matter was closed and that I wouldn't sue'em later etc... I recovered $3511 in damages all on my own for what the entire debacle involved. I swear I could be an attorney. lol - The entire mess is now corrected/offset and I begin anew with a Jasper Engine which will arrive in the shop on Valentine's Day Feb 14th, 2008. LOL - Is this a sign? Is this engine gonna be so sweet I'll want to kiss it? From everything I've read/heard about Jasper I'm thinking so.

All n all though my personal opinion of ATK for products is of course now low. My opinion of their customer service "treatment" over the phone is good/high though their real problem is in their assembly line and "return analysis" departments. It was also very clear that if they could get away with just refunding my core and the cost of the engine itself and nothing else that they would do so and it wasn't until the eminent threat of legal action that they offered to cover what they were responsible for outside of only the engine's cost. Basically they wanted to see if I'd take it sitting down. I swamped them with letters and evidence (photos, vid clips, DVD) and I had everything in order not to mention posting on here for info and another respected forum to make sure I knew what I was talking about. It was a herculian task actually to come such a long way with engine knowledge in such a short period, but it was necessary. Lucky for me I had the time and the resources to fight on my own.

Thanks to all who read up on it and if you want to comment I'm still interested to know if my specs seemed off enough to cause unbalanced oil pressure to anyone who knows how to interpret the data.

Great work searcherr. Will you be accepting any other legal work? Hope
your new engine purrs like a kitten and gets 30mpg.

FYI, this is one problem I have with "factory rebuilt" hardware. Not just engines... for example, I bought a rebuilt window lift motor (actually two), installed them and found them to burn out if the switch became stuck. This particular window motor has a thermal overload device built into it, so the motor should have never burned itself out. After the first one, I returned and installed the second one, which also burned out. When I removed it, I decided to get to the bottom of this and found that the "rebuild" consisted of potting the thermal overload device to keep it from getting hot. This approach did not keep the REST of the motor from getting hot. I had a similar experience with a rebuilt alternator.

Since then I've steered clear of 'factory' rebuilds unless the come recommended by someone who knows the difference between a true rebuild and a sorry excuse for one.

The new Jasper engine is IN the van and running like a purrrrrfect lil kitten. It is AMAZING how smooth is sounds and feels now since I did all my lil upgrades and fix-its along the way and MOST of those fix-its came from this FORUM !!! Thanks to all who have helped me along the way and to the STICKIES and just EVERYBODY! You guys/gals are just true champions of the DIY world and I salute you.

Now for the quasi-not-so-great news. I believe there is an accessory issue regarding holding IDLE speed and my A/C doesn't seem to be cooling as well as it used to. I got a new drier and orifice tube from NAPA which I figured is a good place cause I usually avoid it cause it costs more and they usually have higher quality parts, but thats always been based on "just knowing".

If ya'll want to continue the parade of Windstar problems I'm having I've moved on to this new thread:

Engine Tries to Stall after cooling fan cuts off (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5656991#post5656991)


I am still VERY happy with how the van is now though and to be troubleshooting a LESSER issue than the ENTIRE engine itself and I feel this issue will be easily resolved.

For the A/C, a good checking out of the system might be in order.
If it was disconnected at some point in the engine nightmare process.....it might just need a bit of a charge.
But if it is low on charge for another reason, there could be a leak...which you would want to locate and resolve.
I leave my A/C work to my mechanic.
They have a "sniffer" that they can use to locate more serious leaks, and can add a die to locate slower leaks.
So far, on my '96 3.8L with about 194K miles, I have had 2 repairs.....the Acumulator/Dryer replaced proactively due to deep pitted rust, and the Evaporator coil (in the passenger compartment).....along with the CCRM for the A/C relay.

For the A/C, a good checking out of the system might be in order.
If it was disconnected at some point in the engine nightmare process.....it might just need a bit of a charge.
But if it is low on charge for another reason, there could be a leak...which you would want to locate and resolve.
I leave my A/C work to my mechanic.
They have a "sniffer" that they can use to locate more serious leaks, and can add a die to locate slower leaks.
So far, on my '96 3.8L with about 194K miles, I have had 2 repairs.....the Acumulator/Dryer replaced proactively due to deep pitted rust, and the Evaporator coil (in the passenger compartment).....along with the CCRM for the A/C relay.

Is the A/C relay inside the CCRM ? or the CCRM just helps/is connected to the relay? Is there an A/C on/off switch I should worry about replacing?

The Relay that drives the A/C compressor is inside the CCRM.
The PCM sends a signal to the CCRM to activate the relay.
There are several switches on the A/C system that can prevent operation.......however it will NOT operate if the ambient temperature low......so if it is cold outside, the A/C may not work......and that would be normal.
A good shop will be able to connect gauges to the system and tell you if it has the correct charge......too little or too much are both bad.
Then they will be able to test the system to verify operation.