PCM/ EPROM - All HIGH readings

Greetings!

I own a 1993 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme "S" California model 4 door sedan w/the 3.1 liter V-6 (NO tach).

PROBLEM: The car sputtered then died after putting 18 dollars of gas in and driving about 5 miles. I could not restart the car again after numerous tries and it hasn't started since. The starter would turn over the motor, but that is it.

ACTION: I take the car to a AAA rated ASE mechanic (good reputation). He tells me (after doing his thing) he thinks it's the PCM/EPROM, because the readings he is getting are all askew and don't make any sense. ALL sensor readings are at the HIGH end of the scale (scale being like -30~277 degrees). For example, incoming air is 300 degrees; car is cold and not running! Mph is 255kph (i do have a dash that sometimes illuminates and sometimes does not, he did disconnect this but made no difference). From what i gather, this doesn't necessarily mean that the components are bad, but that quite possibly there is a problem in the harness somewhere between them? Just last month i had the radiator replaced with a new one. I asked if he checked the connectors, fuses, relays, solenoids, etc. and he did, but he didn't see anything visually or by test straight away.

He called me and said, Do you want me to continue?, because it would cost approx. 1k to probably trouble shoot and fix!!!!..i said no and wasn't too happy with the fact that when they bought the new electronics, they got the same thing and that now possibly both brains may be shorted out (FYI, he did have the new EPROM programmed at a dealer, so he didn't pop a blank in there)...wonderful...My mechanic friend in L.A. said that, maybe you should mention to them that "I don't pay you to guess". I didn'nt say that, but not happy that possibly my money was wasted and another NEW unit fried (possibly). He did say they set all 11 codes and they all tested good.

Originally, if the brain was the problem ,it would have cost me 600+ to fix. He cut me a break and i only had to "throw away" 300 dollars. Might as well burned it (cash) in the fireplace.

So what do you think? Harness short or loose ground somewhere? Corroded power lead to the PCM? Any K.I.S.S. things i should check?

I did ask that he write down ALL the fault codes, what diagnosis was performed, what he did and what he found. when i get that, i will post it up here.

This has been a really good car...160,000 + miles...engine runs good, up until now. Now it just cranks and no start.

If it is in the harness where on the engine should i check for this meltdown indicator? Or is it even that?

From our desks, this is impossible to diagnose, your guy on site cannot pinpoint the problem, this takes a analytical approach with good electronic skills. A replacement pcm is about 150.00 and 15 minutes to put in, plus initial diagnostics, so the 600 figure is out of whack, now 1k?, seems like he is discouraging you from going ahead with this. I could be wrong here but I do not believe that has a programmable E prom to begin with. The prom is switched into the replacement pcm. I will look into that.

:iagree: Dont think the ecu was the problem..
Did they even check for spark & fuel ? :screwy:

I dont ever recall replaing any Cutlass's Ecu's over the years either, and I've seen my fair share of them.
Electrical problems(if thats what it is) can be difficult to trace down.

Post back what the Shop says, thankx.

My wild guess is a bad connection where the major wiring harness goes through the firewall. I had that problem with my 91 Olds Cutlass Cierra when it wouldn't start. On my car it was C100.
Try wiggling the connector and then try to start the car. (You might also remove the connector and inspec the contacts for corrosion/ arcing).
Good luck.:)

A replacement pcm is about 150.00 and 15 minutes to put in, plus initial diagnostics, so the 600 figure is out of whack, now 1k?, seems like he is discouraging you from going ahead with this. I could be wrong here but I do not believe that has a programmable E prom to begin with. The prom is switched into the replacement pcm. I will look into that.

i feel like a big lollipop.

I was thinking that cost was high too (f**k me running! <or in this case, NOT running>:naughty: ). He told me that he had to pay 95.00 dollars to tow the car to the dealer for this new PCM & EPROM program (can't do it in the shop...gotta two the WHOLE car). do you actually need to tow the car? or can't you just pop this out and plug it in to a puter and do it that way? I am curious to find out what your findings are about not needing to program. if true, i will not take another car to that place. AAA rated or not.

At this point, i want to get my car as far away as possible from this guy. I made it a point to be very nice:iceslolan (NEVER:nono: piss off the fast food attendant....boogers and other things in your food are NOT good), but was also firm in stating, that "Can you understand why i am having problems paying for something that wasn't repaired?" I.E.: Yes, replacing the brain will fix the problem. Guess what, we fried two ECMs! you pay! We still didn't fix it.

Yes, he is discouraging me from trying to repair it (or i wouldn't spend any more time trying to figure out the problem:shakehead). Why pay 1k to repair a 600 dollar car? Valid point. Hey buy my frickin' dodge bloatwagon for 8k!!! I tried to explain to this guy that i take care of my dad FULL time (amputee/diabetic and stroke on the good side with the good leg), my income is limited and i don't have a whole lot of money for a new car. So, with that DATA, he figures i can afford an 8k+ car! :naughty: :disappoin Gimee some of that ganja you ben smokin' Ricky.:smokin:

From seeing things all way out of whack like that...it sounds like somewhere in this bundle of wires (possibly at the thick point), there is a meltdown waiting to be found. Exactly where, is a mystery. Or possibly the individual connectors may need to be pulled out 1 by 1 and looked at...i hear there are special tools for the connectors.

I would think a problem of this magnitude would be visual...i sure hope so.

So, that i wouldn't waste your guys time i spent about 2 hours late last night doing the page by page search thing and NOT EXACTLY :naughty: finding a cure, except for the new power wire to the PCM thing...that sounded promising along with a battery connection or loose wiggly ground or similar.

I am the master of disaster....i get the weirdest electrical problems. i put an electronic igntion in my old yamaha RD400...then it died. The cause? ONE hairline thin piece of deburr material inside THE BRAIN of all things. took it apart, removed the piece and the puppy fired right up...:evillol:

:iagree: Dont think the ecu was the problem..
Did they even check for spark & fuel ? :screwy:

I dont ever recall replaing any Cutlass's Ecu's over the years either, and I've seen my fair share of them.
Electrical problems(if thats what it is) can be difficult to trace down.

Post back what the Shop says, thankx.
Initially, when i brought the car in, I said this, "I think it may be the fuel pump. Also, when you check the fuel injection for pressure, do you also run a separate line to a can and see how much volume is in for a given length of time?". He nodded knowingly and said yes. I did a little research before asking him this question, so that i showed at least i have some kind of inkling of what's going on and as NOT to take advantage of me. So initially, his focus was on injectors/pump/fuel and also ignition.

From what i have of my handwritten notes (pretty sketchy, will post other results later) here is what i wrote down from the very fast landline conversation we had:

1. checked for spark @ 2 cylinders-no spark.
2. checked TPS voltage
3. askew readings - no spark
4. voltage sensors? no sense in readings
5. every code set (11 codes)
a. all 11 tested good
6. 5 volt reference signal...sounds like an injector voltage...not sure if good or bad
7. sensor range is around -30 to 277 degrees fahrenheit
ALL sensors @ the high end of scale
8. Mentioned that he also made an extra effort to contact a GM dealer (olds is no longer existing) to go over the 1-20 manual steps covered to diagnose this problem.

Their reply after not finding the problem....basically, knowing what they know now, they wouldn't work on the car period. The black plague baby!!!


I know it's sketchy, but i had to write as fast as possible. Hopefully the codes and stuff i pick up today will explain better the disaster i am in.

My wild guess is a bad connection where the major wiring harness goes through the firewall. I had that problem with my 91 Olds Cutlass Cierra when it wouldn't start. On my car it was C100.
Try wiggling the connector and then try to start the car. (You might also remove the connector and inspec the contacts for corrosion/ arcing).
Good luck.:)


I would love for it to be that simple. Can it be accessible by putting the car in neutral, disconnecting the dogbones and rotating the engine forward with a crowbar?

aaghh!!! danger Will Robinson! danger! :runaround::evillol:

Ok, went down to the repair shop and although it's not quite the comprehensive list i was looking for, here are the codes (as written) that showed up.

Codes: 13, 21, 23, 24, 33, 34, 35, 41, 42, 55 & 66.

BTW: Where is the ECM located? Isn't it by the battery near the frame brace? I also am wondering where this NEW spare ECM and EPROM is. didn't see it inside the vehicle (aren't you supposed to get the parts you pay for?). He did put the keys and this very short code list in there.

I sure hope that he at least put the old ECM back in place. I need to check for that.

The more i get into this, the more i don't like it (smells fishier and fishier the more i get into it). I just want to get it away from there.

13 Oxygen Sensor(O2s)Circuit - open circuit
21 Throttle Position(TP) Sensor Circuit-signal voltage high
23 Intake Air Temperature(IAT)Sensor Circuit low Temperature
24 Vehicle Speed Sensor(VSS)Circuit
33 Manifold Absolute Pressure(MAP) Sensor circuit signal voltage high
33 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit-high frequency
34 Manifold Absolute Pressure(MAP) Sensor circuit signal voltage low
34 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit-low frequency
35 Idle speed Error
41 Ignition Control(IC) Timing Circuit Error(3100 VIN M)
42 Knock Sensor(KS) Circuit - spark timing
55 Fuel Lean Monitor
66 AC Refrigerant Pressure sensor circuit - low pressure

Sounds like yo have your hands full!

Ground and power issues are known for thise models as with a short in the harness through the fire wall...
And yes the stealership has to do the relearn most of the time, as not eveyone can afford the scann tools they use.

The ecu is under the hood by the fender, big aluminum box wire wire bundles going to it, cant miss it!~

Well from looking at the codes, either your ecu was bad, or every sensor on your car is malfunctioning at the same time, not likely on the second part. :grinno: Sounds like it shorted something out or still is shorted....

Are all those codes still present after the ECU change ?

I personlay would not have payed for any repairs I didnt aprove of ie new ecu and programing.

Also CA Cutlass Supreme, watch the dates when posting!
We dont need to bring up threads older then 3 months.


Good Luck

1

Sounds like yo have your hands full!

Ground and power issues are known for these models as with a short in the harness through the fire wall...
And yes the stealership has to do the relearn most of the time, as not eveyone can afford the scann tools they use.

Well from looking at the codes, either your ecu was bad, or every sensor on your car is malfunctioning at the same time, not likely on the second part. :grinno: Sounds like it shorted something out or still is shorted....

Are all those codes still present after the ECU change ?

I personlay would not have payed for any repairs I didnt aprove of ie new ecu and programing.

Also CA Cutlass Supreme, watch the dates when posting!
We dont need to bring up threads older then 3 months.


Good Luck
Yes, i've got a full load with this car. Ran fine right up until it pooped out. So it has to be relearnt..ok.

The mechanic did mention that the new PCM / EPROM had the same readings when he changed to the "new" PCM/EPROM, so nothing changed or that it wouldn't show anything..so I'm not quite clear on that...still crazy and nonsense readings. I didn't see the spare brain thrown in the car, so i will ask him monday where the parts are that i paid for. He did mention that there wasn't any protection on GM vehicles from the battery to the brain, so maybe the problem lies somewhere in between?

Well, I'm in a catch 22 with the paying part. He called me and said that it was the brain and eprom and replacing it would fix the problem and i approved it. Later i find out, the problem is repeated with this new brain an eprom after dealer programming. He's stumped. Now i'm wondering if there even was a second brain or did someone static fry the first one and produced this story to recoup their labor costs....i'll never know... and this is the excuse? I still want to see the part i paid for...if not produced, i'll know they were scammin' me and I won't be back.

Parts

E.C.M. - $107.74
Knock Module (PROM) $18.68

Labor Descript.

vehicle dies while driving-advise - replace E.C.M. & Knock mOdule -$59.50
Replace E.C.M. & KNock Module - N/C

Other Charges
Reprogram ECM (S code) - $94.00

Sales Tax
22.96

I apologize if old threads were a problem. I'll stick to mine.

Thanks for your help guys (i know you sometimes don't get a thank you, but whoop, day it is!!)...when i get the car towed back home, i'm gonna start looking around and see what i can do.

I would love to see a loose connector @ the firewall or an obvious loose or melted bunch of wires. Then the car starts right up.....Xing fingers over here.

Ok a new eprom doesnt need anything but plug and play.
But he might have had your original reflashed, that would be why is cost so much. I found a new eprom on ebay for your 93 Cutlass for $25 in a box.

I'd still say its a wire somewhere shorted or a cicuit in the eprom has been toasted because of static.

Check with an Ohmmeter the resistance of the ground connections to the computer.

I also found your thread here http://www.pnwriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58209
And the dying at stops is most likely your TCC in the trany gettting ready to crap out. Here's a link for that repair procedure. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/l/aa011703b.htm


Back over this summer I worked on a 88 Chevy truck, and the dealer told the customer the ECU was bad and it was going to cost about $2200 to fix because parts werent easy to find.

They brought it to me, and I had a spare ecu and the thing still wouldnt run.
Spent the next 2 WEEKS inspecting wires and sure enough it had several wires shorted out in the main harness. Since no harness is available I had to fix each wire, probley had about 20 hrs total time in the search/repairs. Only charged them $400, which was a steal @ $50/hr.


Also have you had any other electric anomalies ???


Good Luck & Good Hunting!!

I found a new eprom on ebay for your 93 Cutlass for $25 in a box.

I'd still say its a wire somewhere shorted or a cicuit in the eprom has been toasted because of static.

Check with an Ohmmeter the resistance of the ground connections to the computer.

I also found your thread here http://www.pnwriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58209
And the dying at stops is most likely your TCC in the trany gettting ready to crap out. Here's a link for that repair procedure. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/l/aa011703b.htm


Spent the next 2 WEEKS inspecting wires and sure enough it had several wires shorted out in the main harness. I had to fix each wire, probley had about 20 hrs total time in the search/repairs. Only charged them $400, which was a steal @ $50/hr.


Also have you had any other electric anomalies ???


Good Luck & Good Hunting!!
New EPRom no flash needed. check. Possible toast by static, yes, i could definitely believe that...done it myself with computer memory. Now i wear a ground wrist strap when messing with memory.

I do have a FLUKE multimeter...by checking to ground, do you mean putting a positive lead from to the harness connection ground (which plugs into computer ground that goes to the computer to chassis ground? So, computer ground at connector to chassis ground. I guess if i have conductivity, the ground would be good. If it shows an infinite, then theres a break in the ground correct, which could explain the high readings?
I would assume that these wires are all color coded, maybe i should check each and every colored wire @ both ends...if i find a short or open that could help? I wouldn't be surprised if they all read open...(connector problem)

TCC? what is that abbreviation for?

Other electric anomaly was a whisp of smoke every now and then from the steering column over the years. I had the turn signal piece in there replaced (wouldn't stay flashing or solid indicator) and it was a BI*ch for the electrician to put a new circular thingy in there. Also, the high/beam low beam switch is toast...id on't dare touch it for fear of being stuck on high beam all the time like the last time i bumped it accidentally. I did smell a plastic burning smell for awhile. ran over a plastic grovery store bag and you can see it hanging from the undercarriage in the center. The electronic gauge cluster seems to be needing replacement...sometimes the LEDs work sometimes they don't...i have understoold this could be related to the PROM, but not absolutely certain.

P.S.> Can i check for ground @ the ALDL connector? or do i have to disconnect everything...I'm not sure what way would be the correct way (key off) to shut off power to the ECM....i would think , if my model allows it, to remove a PCM fuse? Or do i just remove the battery?

It's raining and about 39 degrees, but i wanted to take a look under the hood near battery. Removed airbox/crossbrace to look at pos/neg. connections.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/olds_grnd2.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/olds_grnd1.jpg

More pictures to come. I want to wait until i get a break in the weather. It looks like there are (2) fuse panels, 1 major panel by the ECM passenger side(fusible links/relays/fuses...fuses and links looked good...not sure how to check a relay.. and one on the driver side for aBS and other minor stuff...it connects to the positive offshoot from the battery. so it looks like i'll have to remove the battery before messing with those connections. I saw a long flat connector on the tranny? looked greasy as all hell and one easier to reach 3 or 4 wire connection near the back of the fuel injection...but that ground pictured, looks like an obvious thing to check or replace noose connector or wire.

Do you have any idea what this little noose connector leads too...is it the ground for the ALDL or ECM or ?

I called the dealer where the brain was done. It has a new ECM/PROM chip (core exchange), the service lady said the ECM was flashed??...I'm not sure if she meant the PROM or ECM, but will have technician at dealership call back. Sounds like the ECM was flashed, by what she is trying to get across. Also on my repair receipt, it has a list for reprogram ECM (829263) Code "S".

I called the repair shop where the car was serviced. Mechanic mentioned that the fuel pressure readings were "in spec". They could not check for pulse becuase of no spark? car not running? ECM readings were bad BEFORE unit was installed.
I asked about the service # for the old PROM. HE said it didn't have one when he sent the original in for "core" replacement/flashing. I asked if the part #216-61 (PROM) would be the new service # and he seemed to think so. The new ECM is part #88999208.

He referred to the coil pack as the "ignitor module". seems he couldnt' properly test it for one reason or another (car not running?).

The dealer is supposed to call me back. i'll post what i find.

Could i be having a problem in WA state because this is a California model car. Could the PROM NOT be a CA chip? Did the dealer catch this? Does it matter? I know that the repair shop pointed out that they recognized the car as a California car.

Ok, this is not a 48 state federal model car (they dont' require programming). The California model ECM requires programming. The PROM is just basically there for a Knock Module and doesn't require programming. So i guess any PROM will do, but the ECM is the stickler, must be CA model, which it is by verification.

He recommended checking the crankshaft position sensor and the ignition module, since there is no spark or pulse.

Ok, more searching in the chilton of paris hilton.

If trouble codes 42, 43 or 51 occur, OR if the service engine soon light is ON constantly w/ no codes (guess those would flash in the mph thingy grounding A/B in the ALDL connector..i haven't tested the codes through the ALDL, but i can tell you the service engine light is on constantly), the Mem-CAL/PROM is not FULLY seated or is defective. If not fully seated, press firmly on the ENDS of the PROM/ MEM-cal. If installed backwards, replace the prom/memcal.


42 Knock Sensor(KS) Circuit - spark timing
sounds like knock sensor/PROM...i think that's all the prom is used for may have a problem..

Anytime the PROM is installed backwards and the ignition switch is turned on, the PROM is destroyed.

Looking at this picture, it looks like it would be hard to install a new PROM backwards with the specific notches (look at arrows).

Might just be a loosely seated (not firmly clicked in place) or defective PROM (bad from factory or tesla walking mofo).

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/PROM.jpg

My Vin # is a "T" model (so it looks like i get a bit of a break compared to other models where you have to pull harmonic balancer...this one is above/around the oil filter or general area), so i'm also looking into replacing the CKP (crankshaft position sensor) sensor if i can get to it. looks like i'll have to crawl UNder the car to get to the sensor , if i have the right one, it's facing the front of the car along with the oil filter.

I pulled the ECM. The knock sensor looks like it was installed correctly. Connectors and terminals show no signs of arcing. Here are some pics of the Knock Sensor and Module. There is a weird looking "bulkhead connector" with a plastic cover and what looks like a allen wrench cadmium bolt holding it in place...is this the infamous "firewall" connector you all are talking about?

Now that i have the ECM out, which color wires off the connectors are ground? Do i check the ECM with the multi-meter too?

How do i get to the crank position sensor for replacement or inspection? If i'm thinking right, it's near the bulkhead, bottom right of engine? Am i looking in the right place? Do i need to rotate the engine forward to get to it, or do i need to get it from underneath the car?
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/ECMport1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/knockonce.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/knocktwice.jpg

Is this the firewall connection?
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/firewallmass.jpg

Yes, that's the firewall connection (C100 in my 1995 Cutlass Manual).

Yes, that's the firewall connection (C100 in my 1995 Cutlass Manual).

Hey John,

Is it safe to pull the bolt out in the center (looks like an allen head cadmium thing) and take a look around? What exactly am i looking for...is there some kind of big connector in there?

Just remove the allen key? bolt and pull the connector. But before pulling the connector all the way, I'd loosen the bolt a bit and wiggle the connector, then try to start the car. (If the connectors are corroded, wiggling might be enough to get a connection).

CA Cutlass Supreme,
you do know that you voided any warranty on that Ecu/eprom by opening it up. :eek:

One would think the mechanic that worked on your car would have checked the crank/cam sensors, but it's possible he didnt. No spark, Coils, ICM, CPS,,,,

THAT is where I would have been lookin first before taking the ECU apart and potentially damaging your ECU.

Also you asked what the TCC, Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid , that link explained it all. :uhoh:

ps- if thier was a problem with the ECU/Eprom then the Stealershits should have seen that on thier tool. Plus it's brand new! I highly doubt thats your problem(s).

pss- realy thier is not much testing you can to personly on either the ecu/eprom/knock sensor, unless you have some sort electronic knowledge and a schematic of the circuit boards.
Good Luck!

CA Cutlass Supreme,
you do know that you voided any warranty on that Ecu/eprom by opening it up. :eek:

One would think the mechanic that worked on your car would have checked the crank/cam sensors, but it's possible he didnt. No spark, Coils, ICM, CPS,,,,

THAT is where I would have been lookin first before taking the ECU apart and potentially damaging your ECU.

Also you asked what the TCC, Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid , that link explained it all. :uhoh:

ps- if thier was a problem with the ECU/Eprom then the Stealershits should have seen that on thier tool. Plus it's brand new! I highly doubt thats your problem(s).

pss- realy thier is not much testing you can to personly on either the ecu/eprom/knock sensor, unless you have some sort electronic knowledge and a schematic of the circuit boards.
Good Luck!

I called the dealership and they didn't do any diagnostic, they just programmed the ECM for the repair shop. But, they did mention i could bring my car in! LOL. So if you programmed the ECM with the car THERE and it wouldn't start, wouldn't it make sense to do a diagnostic? Anyway, he didn't think it was the ECM. the fishyness keeps on coming.

About the TCC and removing the ECM...sorry about that, idiot @ work....:icon16:

Man, why is the ignitor base module so expensive?....what a friggin' ripoff...i could see the ECM or coils , but that plastic base piece...wtf mang?

I've got a 255 dollar hammer i'd like to sell.

There's money to be made in parts.:banghead:

Checked the firewall connector. NO corrosion, One slightly twisted connector that i straightened out, but some dirt and spider webs. The vacuum cleaner sucked that stuff out. I wiped the male contacts clean and reinstalled. So that isn't the problem, everything looked pretty fresh inside...i was expecting much worse.

zeroinfinity: I will follow your instructions ...i am not going to try and test the small sensors...i am just going to replace them outright (cheap enough). I could just see the ICM being the culprit (expensive plastic piece!), but the small things first (CKP and CMP).

Ok, Now I'm really confused. I pull what i think to be the CKP sensor and bring it to the parts place (carquest) to order another. What he finds for my car doesn't match what i pull out and then we look around. We find another part that looks exactly like this one and it's called a "vehicle speed sensor"or "trans speed sensor".

The chilton manual says, "The CKP sensor is located toward the bottom of the rear (right side) of the engine block on V6 engines.". I assumed this meant near the firewall on the passenger side of the car... and this is what i pulled out.

Someone tell me if this is the CKP? Is the CKP also called a vehicle speed sensor or trans speed sensor? Is the chilton manual in error? Did i read it right?

more confusion.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/speedsensor2.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/engbay1.jpg

I've been bouncing back and forth between forums and you can see updates at PNWriders.com too ( more pics and stuff).

I went to Autozone and rented a NOID tester. popped in the GM PFI noid and the noid flashed several times. so the harness is getting a signal to the injectors. It's starting to snow, but i was going to check ground voltage next. (positive terminal to batt. pos. and touch each of the grounds to see if voltage is close to 12v.).

I will try to test ground voltage when the snow lets up. Will keep posted on results.

I think you are right zeroinfinity about a short or ignition component.

Right now I'm thinking it's either the ignitor module or the CKP sensor. If not, then i've got to tear into the harness....i sure hope it isn't the latter.

Just did a voltage check on all grounds from battery + terminal. I get 12volts to both tranny grounds, the steering column ground and the underseat passenger side ground. So it looks like the grounds are solid.

Hello again. Looks like i have to pull the harmonic balancer. I've read a few places and loosening the bolt with an air impact driver with the belt on was suggested. I also saw mention of high temp RTV for the keyway. Someone mentioned ona mustang forum of "boiling" the balancer for an easy press fit, is this necessary or will the balancer slide right back on?

I was told to take a resistance reading (892 ohms in spec) across sensor terminals. With leads connected and then scale switched to VAC, i cranked the motor and only got around 0.6~0.7 VAC. Spec is supposed to be between 0.8~1.4 VAC. I have 12.32 VDC @ the battery terminals currently.

The last question is, do i need to make a bar to hold the crank in place when reinstalling the balancer? Should i put the belt back on and then torque the balancer to spec (100 ft-lbs?). I have a clutch basket holding vice grip tool for a motorcycle, not sure if this would be advisable, but let me know what you think

I'd be carefull with the crank pulley, you can damage the rubber part that holds the two pieces together.

I dont always use an impact to break the bolt loose, I use a long 1/2" breaker bar, and then check with a torqu wrench when installing.

You will need a crank pulley puller for this though, and NOT the Jaw type puller that would damage your HB.
You need the type that bolts to the balancer, which will push it back on too.

Does sound like your crank sensor is faulty.

ALso double check the wires at the sensor by the block, they tend to get dried out and can crack causing intermitant issues.

ps- if you need to hold the engine you might try something on the flyweel side by removing the cover.

Good Luck

I reviewed your posts and my 95 Cutlass Supreme manual.

It seems that the only repair done before the car died was the radiator replacement. Did the old radiator leak and cause coolant to get into any connectors or wiring harness? Can you see any signs of this?

The high readings on the codes clearly point to a missing ground going to the ECM. There's no way you could have all the sensors go bad at the same time. It's got to be in the wiring. You need to disconnect the connector at the ECM and measure the resistance to chassis (or negative battery terminal) for each wire that should be ground. The readings should be close to zero ohms. (You need the correct wiring diagram).

I'd be carefull with the crank pulley, you can damage the rubber part that holds the two pieces together.
I use a long 1/2" breaker bar, and then check with a torqu wrench
You will need a crank pulley puller,
Does sound like your crank sensor is faulty.
ALso double check the wires at the sensor by the block, they tend to get dried out and can crack causing intermitant issues.
ps- if you need to hold the engine you might try something on the flyweel side by removing the cover.

Good Luck
I won't boil the pulley then. Sounds like a bad idea in this case. Maybe put it in the oven on warm?

I just need to rent a puller and then head to the hardware store for a short enough center bolt. Looks like there is some sort of smog pump (near firewall and alternator) hooked up to it too. so it has an old school belt and the serpentine belt behined that on the balancer. Thanks for the tip on the flywheel cover...i'll try that if the breaker bar i just bought (1/2" breaker bar...24 inches long), doesn't do it alone.

I reviewed your posts and my 95 Cutlass Supreme manual.

It seems that the only repair done before the car died was the radiator replacement. Did the old radiator leak and cause coolant to get into any connectors or wiring harness? Can you see any signs of this?

The high readings on the codes clearly point to a missing ground going to the ECM. There's no way you could have all the sensors go bad at the same time. It's got to be in the wiring. You need to disconnect the connector at the ECM and measure the resistance to chassis (or negative battery terminal) for each wire that should be ground. The readings should be close to zero ohms. (You need the correct wiring diagram).

Hey John,

I checked all (4) major grounds: Steering Column, passenger side seat, and the 2 tranny side ground connections by voltage. had the + lead connected to battery positive and the negative lead i did all the probes to ground with. I got a solid 12 volts on all 4 grounds. they are good.

The bright side is that i have solid injector pulse with the NOID checker, i have fuel pressure to the rails and i have found that the crankshaft position sensor is bad. I reason that i have no spark because of this. The sensor is most probably shorted out causing all this hassle. ...other than that, it's probably an ignition module, but i want to replace the sensor first and seee if it will start, because the ignition module will require a relearn if i remove it for testing, which i will do, if the car doesn't start.

I have compression, i have fuel, but i have no spark!

I won't boil the pulley then. Sounds like a bad idea in this case. Maybe put it in the oven on warm?

I just need to rent a puller and then head to the hardware store for a short enough center bolt. Looks like there is some sort of smog pump (near firewall and alternator) hooked up to it too. so it has an old school belt and the serpentine belt behined that on the balancer. Thanks for the tip on the flywheel cover...i'll try that if the breaker bar i just bought (1/2" breaker bar...24 inches long), doesn't do it alone.


That would be your smog pump, courtesy of California. :D

If using the breaker bar isnt enough leverage, try a longer pipe on the bar. ;)

Also a bad ground wouldnt make high reading, usually the oposite, low readings. :2cents:

Here's the trick for removing any pulley....Got it from PNW forum member. wrap old belt around pulley, use a chain wrench. Less than a minute, the bolt is loose!

I got the bar from Harbor Freight and a hefty 24" long...made the job easy.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/24bar.jpg

I pulled the yellow/purple wire that connects the ICM to the CKP(tested good for continuity)... Picture of replacement sensor below.

So, what is the trick to getting this 3X CKP out? This one is down low behind the engine near the frame crossmember (below the transpeed sensor near firewall and under rear exhaust manifold). Looks like it would be impossible to get at from above and difficult from the underside.

anyone?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/new_CKP3.jpg

Ok, I edited your post because the pic was to big, we have a limit of 800x600 .

Ok I see a few things wrong right off on that CKP, they are circled in your pic .....
1- wires nicked, good way to short things out for sure!
2- Looks like more bad wire with tape :nono:
3- Plug without coverage, bad bad bad!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/xeroinfinity/new_CKP3.jpg

I would suggest using shrink tubing NOT TAPE!
It get very hot(hott as an oven) down there and tape will fall off or allow water/debrie to work in and cause other nightmares.

Ok on removing the CKP, didnt you get this link here (http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/0e/d2/13/0900823d800ed213/repairInfoPages.htm)??
Generaly its accessed from top or if the car is up high enough you can get to it from below but it is a blindeye job, meaning its done by feel prety much. You can also pull the pass side wheel off remove the plastic fender well cover and have a straight shot at it.

The problem with autozone links, is they write this information for a mechanic, Not a regular joe like myself (not enough detail and trick or tips on a difficult job). What they don't mention, is you have to cut the ends off the harmonic balancer sensor to even think of pulling it through and out ...there's just not enough clearance. That is what i'm thinking of doing with the new sensor. cut the ends off, then connect both ends with mechanics wire and pull through then recrimp the connector end back on. It is a tight hole and i tried to pull out the old sensor, but it doesn't want to go through.

Thanks for the tip on heat shrink. Looks like i'll have to cut the wire and then use a crimp butt connector and heat shrink it back together, unless we are on different pages. I'd like to find a set of posilock connectors, but they are sold out almost as soon as they come in!!

#3 plug w/o coverage? I don 't get this...this is how the plug looked when i pulled it from connector....I don't see anything out of place, but do explain. Or are you talking about the ribbed plastic sheathing that runs the length of the cable?

I was worried about the 3x connector by the firewall. I would like to see anyone pull that thing from under the car and i have small hands...i like your tip about the firewall and the passenger fender. Sounds like the way to go...someone also mentioned pulling the alternator and mount and doing it that way.

Yeah the zone is generic as they come but free, so you get what you pay for. lol

Might try some penitrating fluid around that 3x CKP sensor and try turning it as you pull it out.
You may also want to pull the front engine mounts loose and rock the motor forward to get better access from above. You will want to support the motor/trans while doing this.

On the #3, the ends of the red and black lead wires(to the left of the black plug) are missing thier protector boots, they can easily touch each other and short circuit things. Probly someone elses handy work.

Yeah the zone is generic as they come but free, so you get what you pay for. lol

Might try some penitrating fluid around that 3x CKP sensor and try turning it as you pull it out.
You may also want to pull the front engine mounts loose and rock the motor forward to get better access from above. You will want to support the motor/trans while doing this.

On the #3, the ends of the red and black lead wires(to the left of the black plug) are missing thier protector boots, they can easily touch each other and short circuit things. Probly someone elses handy work.

Those are homemade jumpers that i made:icon16:. garden variety alligator clips just weren't cutting it:shakehead, i tried vinyl tape, but as you said, it unravels against itself...not very secure, so i spread them apart so as not to short while testing against each other.. i had cut the yellow exposed wire and recrimped with a waterproof heat shrinkable splice..unfortunately the hair dryer isn't hot enough to shrink it, so i used Permatex High-temp RTV and covered everything. Should be pretty waterproof and temp safe up to 700 degrees.

My biggest fear is pulling the 24X harmonic balancer sensor. It looks like the only way to pull it is to CUT it out?...there is this tiny hole where it looks like only the wires will fit through...I'll take some pictures tommorrow and then you can see what i am talking about.

Here is the 24X CKP madness that i have to deal w/. How i will get that out w/o cutting the wire and doing the same for the new one is a mystery to me.

The first picture, lower left blue circle...do you think removing that bolt there would facilitate removal of the 24X CKP? This looks like a class A peanut cluster!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/cranky1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/bigbar.jpg

Zeroinfinity ...yes!

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/3XCKP.jpg


I found the 3X CKP (when the rains stop, i'll remove the passenger wheel and lube it like no tommorrow and spin it slowly). Now i know i can remove that sensor myself. Is it possible for me to buy the purple/yellow connector cable and connectors that connects the CKP to the ICM? If i could get a new connection, that would be great. I know they have to be wound 9 times per foot...must have something to do with the magnetism of the thing.

I'm seriously considering cutting the 24X crank sensor and then resoldering the connection back on, unless you have a trick for feeding the new harmonic sensor on there without cutting the big connector end off to feed it through.

Ok lets back up a second here, on the RTV that would also be a temp fix, as it doesnt like to stick to plastic wire sheathing or to oily surfaces.
A cheap lighter from your local conveniant store will melt the shrink tubing.
Which I would recomend covering those two terminals you repaired, even if the was to touch the engine, not realy each other, it would fry more electronics. Plus they could get wet easily and then you'd get some corrosion leading ot more troubles.

On the 3x, you thier should be 1 bolt holding it in , other then that it should pull out.

On the 24x you did remove the crank pulley ??
You should be able to get right to it through the pass wheel well just fine, with out cutting more stuff.

All that wire cutting is nothing but trouble if you do not properly secure the wires after repairs. On twisting the wires just twist them with some pliers or a small drill, mainly just keeps them together and not getting melted by the engine heat.

Good Luck Yo !

Yes, the balancer is removed from the vehicle and i have detached the banana shaped sensor. The problem is removing and replacing the sensor w/o cutting the connector end off.

If you look at the first image (24X CKP routing in orange) in post #41, this is the routing for the 24X CKP and it is a pain. looks like only enough room for the wire and protective coating to slip through. So the balancer and the A/C unit was rotated away for access, but the pinch points, seem to be preventing me from pulling it out.

The 3X is an 8mm socket right? not a weird hex socket?

Oh, I didnt hear you say before that it was the wires route that was giving you the trouble.
You may have to remove any brackets in your way, or as you are thinking cut the wires. I would solder them and use shrink tubing, this is one of the most important parts of your engine managment system.

Not sure exactly what size bolt holds the 3x in, but 8mm sounds right, just a standard metric bolt. That didnt sound right. :lol:

Man, i am making mistakes all over the place. I pulled the RTV off the ICM cable. took the lighter and shrunk it up. Went to Kragen and bought new RED colored 3/8" wire conduit to shield the yellow/purple wires. The other one in the middle looked like a dog got part of it.

I found another route under the V bar that braces the bottom of the motor, so i didn't have to cut the 24X sensor wires at all. What a relief! Torqued to spec.

That picture in #42? I was wrong, that is the Trans speed sensor....replaced that with new and torqued to spec. Keep mixing that up with the 3x...BTW: both the trans speed sensor AND the 3x CKP have the SAME colored wires: Yellow and purple....confucious say, "wtf?!"

I didn't really see the 3X CKP until i looked far into the wheel well using the powersteering cables as guidelines (was under the car and referenced that with the location of 3x). That sucker is way in and the wheel well is NOT the way to go. Next i put the tire back on and lowered the car, then removed the front dogbones and rotated the motor forward. i removed the power steering/smog pump bracket altogether to let me do a reach around and get my jollies. After a 1/2 hour of fiddling about, i found the actual 3X CKP with my fingers...felt the long post that the sensor locates on. ....yay! So, i will have to do this one by feel, but it doesn't seem too hard..I'll have to find a way to spray lube..since the tires are on the ground. don't want to jack the car w/ the motor in neutral.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/smogless1.jpg

Man, that 3X sensor is a PAIN. I'm spinning and pulling and spinning and pulling. So at least i got the bolt loose...there is the added difficulty of trying to loosen things with all that crap that bolts onto the exhaust in the way...plus i'm sure i thought i heard a little rattle...so something is probably broken. I just hope i get it all out before breaks off.

I'll probably be going back out and trying again...

Finally got the old sensor out. It was all intact. Totally blind fitting..took me awhile just to put the bolt back in for the new sensor. Installed sensor with connector attached, so i wouldn't have to fiddle with that. Now the slow process begins with a 10mm and a flat handle non-ratcheting thing (only thing that will fit w/ the tight clearance will insert pic of it later). The socket is slightly longer than a regular 10mm socket. If i didn't have that smog crap in the way, it would probably be a quick affair, but slowly inching the bolt into the block.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/flathandle1.jpg

Ok, i tried hand threading the OEM center bolt into the crank. doesn't want to hand thread in there. I used a NAPA harmonic balancer puller #775-3901. You don't think the pointy tip of the center bolt may have made the center threads on the crank sloppy do you? I bought a longer bolt with a set screw and collar to use as an installer, both pitches are 1.5mm...they don't want to hand thread on there easily.

Suggestions?

Doing a little "search", I find that i need a harmonic balancer installation tool.

I'll see if autozone rents one out. If not, $33 bucks is worth the price of NOT stripping the center crank threads!!

I have to tell, you this is one of longest ongoing threads depicting" blow by blow action", congrats on doing this and stiil having time to actually work on your project!

Yeah Max I was thinking the same thing, last thursday.

Just goes to show you how electrical gremlins can be difficult to track down.

I sure as hell dont get them wet or feed them after midnight. :lol:

I rented a harmonic balancer installer from Autozone. I know from checking the "search" area of the forum and personal experience, that the 3X sensor can have a short in the middle of the connection wire.

What is the frequency of problems w/ the Vehicle Speed Sensor or Trans speed sensor wiring? This is the other set of purple/yellow wires.

I'm kinda kicking myself, because i have already put on the alternator bracket, alternator and smog pump.

do you think I'll be alright not checking the wiring that connects to the VSS or trans speed sensor? I guess i am asking this question. Is there a high possibility for wire failure on the VSS or i can forget about it for now?

I really don't want to have to remove the alternator bracket again. I will do so, if i have to access the VSS wiring.

what do you think?

The trans sensor isnt going to have any effect of whether the car starts.
I wouldnt mess with it unless the wires area looks like its been disturbed/damaged.

Ok the VSS is on the transmission not the engine.
thiers the knock sensor, cam sensor, and O2. See this diagram (http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d800ed2b0.gif)...

I'm ready for you to fire it up ! :D

Thanks guys. It's been raining cats and dogs, I bought a new ICM (just because the old one is 14 year old plastic and i just don't trust it). I hope i get a little bit of a dry spell, so i can work on the car w/o getting plastered. At least the car has been pushed in the driveway and i'm not working in the sloped street anymore. I'll keep you posted on what's going on.

I pulled the old ignition module and I am replacing with a new one. I checked the primary/secondary readings on the coils and they are good.

Here's the hardest part. The module is almost upside down and only has two very short locator pins. I located the module in it's pins, but as soon as i let go of it, it falls out of place.

What is the trick to getting that thing to stay in place while i try to fit the coils back on and screw them in????

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/module1.jpg

I got help with the ICM w/ my girlfriend holding the unit while I screwed in the the far right 2/5 coil. So, at least I don't have to worry about positioning. I'll put the other coils in after the balancer is installed correctly. What was odd was that we got it the first try...thank god for that. Especially in the short snow storm we did it in. 1/2 hour to do that and then indoors to get warm!!

I buggered the first few threads while using the harmonic balancer remover, so i went to ACE hardware and bought a 12 X 1.5mm tap. Since clearance was minimal, I improvised with a long 1/4" extension and a 1/4" socket that fit the end of the square tap and used a 1/4" to 3/8" drive adapter with larger 3/8" ratchet and slowly tapped my way through. I was able to clean up the threads no problem. Next i installed the puller...the round "donut" piece that makes contact with balancer had me nervous (as one of the bearings popped out of it) and i found a round indented motorcycle steering head washer that fit inside the small area of the balancer pretty good and put the nut on that and started tightening that down. I'm about 1/2 way through, working in the rain and cold had me stop when my clothes were fully soaked. I don't have a LARGE box end / open end (i think the installer nut is about 1-1/16") wrench that fits right, so i used a large crescent wrench ...stopping every few turns to cinch the crescent. Slow going, like most of the stuff i've been working on. Kinda makes you miss the old cars with engine bays you could crawl into, no?

A word of advice when "renting" out tools. Inspect them before you take them out. The donut and the adapter had signs of abuse and failed when i tried to install the balancer. Autozone was cool and lent me a new kit that hasn't been used. The old kit spit out a few bearings in the donut that presses against the balancer and the tip that screws into the crank broke off. Seems someone before me tried to use a pair of pliers on it. I also pointed out another adapter in the kit that had a hairline crack. The donut, i found out by comparison w/ new kit, was swollen from abuse.

So, i'll try again tommorrow. Most likely in the rain and hopefully i'll get it fully pressed on.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/stallbreak1.jpg

Got the balancer and ICM done. The other wiring conduits look ok with no eaten away look to them.
Anyone know what the torque setting (ft-lbs) is for the tensioner Pulley bolt? Also what is the ft-lbs for the alternator/smog mount piece? (long aluminum piece that the smog pump and alternator bolt too) It has 3 bolts. One in the center and two side ones.

Autozone part #305203 (DAYCO belt tensioner) does NOT work with a CA smog cutlass supreme. I called Schuck's and they sell a GOODYEAR belt tensioner #49205 that uses the stock bolt AND is recessed, so the bolt head is not in the path of the smog pump belt.

So if you have a california Cutlass Supreme "S" w/ smog, don't buy the autozone part. The Schuck's /Kragen's part (goodyear tensioner) is the one to get.

Here's a picture of the WRONG tensioner installed:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t163/holypiston/tension4me.jpg