P0104 P0107 on 2000 windstar SE 3.8L...again? PLEASE HELP ME

134,000 miles on the van...

O.k....June of '06 I got the P0171 & P0174 codes and ended up replacing the intake gasket (http://www.2carpros.com/forum/p0104-p0107-on-2000-windstar-se-38lagain-please-help-me-vt67383.html#)set, vaccum line, & PCV valve...I was told the gasket set went bad because of oil contamination that was getting in due to the valve cover design...Ford said there was a updated valve cover, which I did not have put on. I just told them to replace gasket set, pcv valve, vaccum line, and clean oil contamination...the check engine light went off following the above repairs...

this past week, over a year later...I got the same two codes...had midas do a diagnostic test...they said they also did a "smoke test" on the upper intake and lower intake and saw a leak in the lower intake right where a small rod runs through the intake due to the seal around the rod...

They believe they need to replace the lower manifold which has been updated by ford...they said they would also want to do the upper intake just to be safe...& the gasket set would have to be replaced again...but said they thought it had nothing to do with the valve cover design...

do you think its just another oil re-contamination to the gasket set because I never replaced the valve cover in June '06...or is it this whole new problem, with just the same codes, like they seem to think... :banghead:

If you need any pictures or further explaination, lmk...

I appreciate any help you can give me...

Thanks,

Are you sure it was not a 171-174 ?? 107 is Manifold absolute pressure MAP sensor circuit low voltage.
104 is Mas air flow circuit intermittent..


I don't know about the lower intake manifold being updated I do know the upper intake was updated which I have. Because of the baffle.. or upper clam shell..AKA. But yes I have heard of the 171-174 having to be redone..

^^^oh yeah your right about the codes...I fixed that in the post...Thank you

i guess my question is why were they talking about the valve cover last time now they are talking about the intakes?

^^^oh yeah your right about the codes...I fixed that in the post...Thank you

i guess my question is why were they talking about the valve cover last time now they are talking about the intakes?

The valve cover was redone were the hole was is in the PCV valve area.. It kept less oil out of the PCV system going into the intake. Mine as the new type on there but it still get right much oil in there.. I will say this I broke one of my isolator bolts doing the repair and use blue RTV sealer around the lower intake area which to this day I have heard no one else doing this.. I thought whats it going to hurt.. So far I have had no problems.. It also glues that lower intake down so if the Isolator bolts loosened it would most likely not leak. That just theory though.. Now your 2000 may have had the newer one put on. Depends on when it was made. So the thinking is oil coming through the PCV valve tube gets into the intake and loosens up the isolator bolts..But like I said mine had the newer one and still gets oil in there. Ill see if can get the pics up..

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html
scroll down where you can see the valve cover.. It will show you what to look for in the PCV hole if you have a little hole in the lower part of the baffle it needs to be replaced it should be a solid type baffle.. It shows you pics of this. Scroll down a little on first page... hope this helps...

The oil leakage should have nothing to do with a leak in the LOWER intake manifold.

Now, "seal around the rod" would sound like the IMRC shaft.
And, to that, YES, indeed, they are correct, FORD did realize a problem with the lower intake manifold wearing at the point(s) that the IMRC shaft passes through the side, permitting air to leak in.
But, as I mentioned, your oil issue has nothing to do with that.

Replacing the lower intake manifold REQUIRES replacement of the lower intake manifold gaskets.
You MUST also change the engine oil and filter before starting the engine as there is no way to avoid coolant getting into the engine oil during the process.

The oil 'should' not damage the new isolator part of the new bolts, as they are supposed to be oil resistant.
HOWEVER, the excess oil being drawn into the cylinders, causes a build up of carbon inside the cylinders, which increases compression, and causes pinging.
FORD's solution to the pinging is to reprogram the PCM to retard the timing slightly.

Looking on Milleniumn FORD's online parts store....
The lower intake manifold for '99-03 lists at$401.95, and they offer it for $298.40.
Add the lower intake manifold gaskets which list at just under $11 each for right and left.
The upper manifold gasket lists at $2.50.

As I understand it, the lower intake manifold includes the IMRC stuff (but not the actuator(s))
But I could be wrong.

While they are in there, you might have them replace the "cross-over pipe", which is a coolant line that runs through the intake manifold.

Yep, I too have heard of vacuum leaks around the 'throttle shafts' for the IMRC system on the Ford 3.8L. The bushing pressed into the aluminum lower intake manifold wears over time, giving enough clearance to cause an air leak path. I'm wondering if it's possible to unhook the actuator linkages and just put a bead of RTV sealer or the likes around the leak area. Basically the IMRC system would be rendered useless, but the actuators would still function, thus preventing a CEL? Any of you guru's know if this would work? IMO, the IMRC system doesn't yield enough 'returns' for the investment on a 2000. Just my :2cents: .

Joel

Wow! First thank you everyone for trying to help me with this problem. I am absolutely clueless with auto repair, and have major trust issues with local mechanics...So, Much appreciated!!!!

wiswind & rodeo02 You guys seem to know exactly what I'm talking about here so I have a few questions. To be sure I'm understanding everything I took pics to show what I was told by midas...

First lets be sure I'm identifying the parts correctly:
http://a849.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/47/l_6c80a7bb58b34972a3da15ec665f44e0.jpg


And this is the IMRC shaft going into the LIM (where Midas says they saw a leak during smoke test:
http://a793.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/89/l_a85454e98b8c6d51eabb6e746b24f690.jpg

I'm assuming the black circle around the rod is the "bushing pressed into the aluminum", but what are the actuators?

I am really just concerned with getting the check engine light off and passing emissions which is due next month...so i am wondering if what rodeo02 suggests is feasible,

rodeo02, what do you mean the IMRC isnt worth the investment, and how would I go about "unhooking the actuator linkages" and trying this RTV sealer trick?

What exactly is the purpose of the IMRC if you can disable it and still have the van work?

Now, wiswind, you seem to believe that having the outdated valve cover still on the van has nothing to do with the Leak around the IMRC shaft.

If so, Do you think if I decide to have the lower intake changed to the updated version, I should have the updated valve cover put on at this point as well?

Also, Is it necessary to change the upper intake manifold if I do the lower one, and why do the shops quote me for $150 for the "intake gasket set"? Can the lower and upper gaskets really be purchased seperately for just $2.50 & $11?

Oh, and I checked at my local Ford dealer and they said they could order the Updated lower intake manifold for $401.95, but I would have to wait for weeks because it is on national back order.

I went to Millenium fords site and couldn't find it. Do you have a link for where you found it for $298.40, and Will I have to order the actuators seperately? (whatever they are:banghead:)

And lastly, do suggest doing this "cross-over pipe" simply because once you're in there you might as well, or because you think it could be part of the problem here?

Sorry about all the questions guys but you seem to know whats going on and are willing to help me understand this as I weigh my otions with this van...I'm not a car expert but maybe there is something else I can help you with...just lmk

rodeo02, what do you mean the IMRC isnt worth the investment, and how would I go about "unhooking the actuator linkages" and trying this RTV sealer trick?

What exactly is the purpose of the IMRC if you can disable it and still have the van work?


From how I understand it, the IMRC is there for a very slight boost in performance, economy and possibly emissions. From what I've heard, you don't notice a difference with a non functioning IMRC aside from a CEL. Very nice pics BTW! The actuator is the electric motor that move the linkages attached to the lower intake. It's a black box looking component. If the limit switches that the PCM looks at are in the actuator, you should be able to disconnect the linkages, but leave the actuator live and functioning. Put a glop of RTV around both bushings in the lower intake, reset the CEL and call it a day. That's what I'd do on an 8yr/old Winny.

Joel

I have done, and redone, the isolator bolt procedure. First I used "black" isolator bolts... the improved "green" ones were not then available. Before spending a bunch of money, I would suggest you plan to do the job TWICE!

First time is just to "disassembly, clean and inspect". ... and to make minor corrections ... Don't buy any parts yet, you will discover if any are needed. You can then purchase any parts you need. (In fact, the "first time" may be all that is necessary.)

I bought the upgraded valve cover ... may have been wasted money, not sure.

Procedure (kinda):
1. Remove the windschield cowling for easier access. Do you have to? No, ....go ahead Knochenkopf, hurt yourself!
2. Remove the plastic upper intake manifold ... 14 screws or so.
3. Remove the plastic intake "spacer" ... 8 (famous) isolator bolts. Most written instructions would have you remove "everything" attached to the spacer as a prerequisite ... the throttle body, cables, air filter body, etc ... not necessary, remove the air filter body but leave the cables and throttle body inplace. After removing the eight isolator bolts, just roll the spacer over for access to both sides. ( I don't have a photo of this ... sorry!)
4. Are the gaskets reusable? Do the IMRC link bushing/retainers look OK? (Replace these straight away if they look faulty or are missing.)
5. Put everything back together, using lots of Permatex Grey RTV on the isolator bolts and any questionable gaskets. Don't overtorque the many small bolts and screws ... just a good twist with the wrist ... 10Nm's ain't much! (When you overtorque a screw and it fails ... a few moments follow that are fill with self loathing!)
6 Put a bit of high temp grease around the IMRC shaft to seal it.
.
7 If the above steps don't do it and clear the codes ... buy the necessary pieces and do it again!

.... a few meaningless photos:
... the cowling removed:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7537/pict0012bk8.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0012bk8.jpg).
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8531/38lupperintakeremovedor4.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38lupperintakeremovedor4.jpg).
If the manifold plastic "upper" and "spacer" are removed, the aluminum "lower" is available for servicing ... be sure to clear those EGR jets! http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8954/pict0017ri3.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0017ri3.jpg)

I have done, and redone, the isolator bolt procedure. First I used "black" isolator bolts... the improved "green" ones were not then available. Before spending a bunch of money, I would suggest you plan to do the job TWICE!

First time is just to "disassembly, clean and inspect". ... and to make minor corrections ... Don't buy any parts yet, you will discover if any are needed. You can then purchase any parts you need. (In fact, the "first time" may be all that is necessary.)

I bought the upgraded valve cover ... may have been wasted money, not sure.

Procedure (kinda):
1. Remove the windschield cowling for easier access. Do you have to? No, ....go ahead Knochenkopf, hurt yourself!
2. Remove the plastic upper intake manifold ... 14 screws or so.
3. Remove the plastic intake "spacer" ... 8 (famous) isolator bolts. Most written instructions would have you remove "everything" attached to the spacer as a prerequisite ... the throttle body, cables, air filter body, etc ... not necessary, remove the air filter body but leave the cables and throttle body inplace. After removing the eight isolator bolts, just roll the spacer over for access to both sides. ( I don't have a photo of this ... sorry!)
4. Are the gaskets reusable? Do the IMRC link bushing/retainers look OK? (Replace these straight away if they look faulty or are missing.)
5. Put everything back together, using lots of Permatex Grey RTV on the isolator bolts and any questionable gaskets. Don't overtorque the many small bolts and screws ... just a good twist with the wrist ... 10Nm's ain't much! (When you overtorque a screw and it fails ... a few moments follow that are fill with self loathing!)
6 Put a bit of high temp grease around the IMRC shaft to seal it.
.
7 If the above steps don't do it and clear the codes ... buy the necessary pieces and do it again!

.... a few meaningless photos:
... the cowling removed:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7537/pict0012bk8.th.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0012bk8.jpg).
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8531/38lupperintakeremovedor4.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38lupperintakeremovedor4.jpg).
If the manifold plastic "upper" and "spacer" are removed, the aluminum "lower" is available for servicing ... be sure to clear those EGR jets! http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8954/pict0017ri3.th.jpg (http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict0017ri3.jpg)
Just for a curiosity question, for a P0171/174 issue what could be the result of just replacing the isolator bolts (one by one) by the upgrade one, without removing the lower part of the intake (according that you clean the EGR ports)? Is that shortcut job could fix the problem?

The link to Millenium Ford's parts department is
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214072

Don't know if this will work......but the link to the manifold is
http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getLocator&siteid=214072&chapter=DP2027&appSectionid=6&groupid=10024&subgroupid=20086&componentid=60864&make=10&model=Windstar&year=2000&catalogid=1

If the link does not work,
From the main page, enter your year, vehicle...under the mechanical parts.
Then, select Fuel System, then Fuel Induction, then Intake.
From there, you will be able to select what you want.

One thing that is VERY IMPORTANT, include your VIN with your online order.
There have been some mid-year changes.....and your VIN will help them get the correct part for YOUR vehicle.

I mentioned that the extra oil, from the old style valve cover (if, indeed you have that) would not be a factor in the wear on the IMRC shaft entry point into the lower intake manifold, as......the spot just plain wore out......if anything, oil would have provided lubrication to extend the life of that spot..not that the extra oil would be good overall.

I would direct you to the leckemby site that gary mentioned above.....it is a excellent source of information on the valve cover (tells you how to determine if you have the problem one or not) and the intake isolator bolts.
Also has a lot of pictures.

The IMRC concept is a modern day version of the 4 barrel carborator.
When your engine reaches a certain RPM (exact RPM depends upon the year....they changed it at least once), the "actuators" open another air intake port for each cylinder, providing more power.
The idea being, in normal driving, they are CLOSED, but under hard accelleration, they open to give you more power.

I am only familiar with the vaccum driven ones on my '96 3.8L.
In my case, the IMRC is OPEN with no vaccum......so they are open when the engine is off.
Then, once there is vaccum, they close.
The PCM sends a signal to a vaccum control solenoid, that interrupts the vaccum to the actuators, causing them to open.
Inside each actuator is a variable resistor, which provides feedback to the PCM, telling it what position the IMRC shaft is in.

Starting in 1999, and newer, they changed to a electrically driven actuator, instead of using vaccum.
I am not familiar with those, but the concept is the same.

The IMRC, and the big "cross port" intake manifold that goes with it, is the major factor in the 3.8L engine's upgrade from 155hp in 1995 to 200hp in 1996.

As you have been advised, make sure that the EGR ports get cleaned while the upper intake manifold is off.
That is another issue that comes up with the 3.8L engine, so it would be best to take care of it then.
They are easy to clean.....the real work is taking the upper intake manifold off to get to them.

Catvents:
Yes, you could shorten the procedure by removing/replacing the isolator bolts one at a time ...
... but, the EGR ports have been such a trouble maker, I would advise anyone not to pass up the chance to clean them.

wiswind, If it was your van, and you planned on keeping it for another year, what would you have done based on what I have been saying?

I definetly have the old design valve cover still on this van...and midas suggested I replace the lower & upper intake manifolds, but only saw a leak through the IMRC...

Unfortunately, Once I know what I have to/want to replace, I am going to buy the parts and have a shop do the work...most likely pep boys, or a local shop...so I'm trying to kep this repair under $1000...as low as possible really...

The main concern is to get the check engine light off and pass emissions, and get the van running normally of course.

The only noticeable thing with the van now when it drives, is sometimes a slight surging when I am coming to stops...


Also, Thank you for that link to the lower intake for $298...Do you know if that is the updated LIM or the old one?

I am so thankful that you are willing to share your knowledge and appreciate all of your time thus far...Thank you,

If I was planning to keep the van, I would fix it to the best level that I could.
I invested $1200 in repairs to my '96 at 183K miles this past spring.....new 'quick struts' which is the spring and strut assemly, as I had a broken spring (outside the 10 year unlimited warranty on springs from FORD), very slightly worn wheel bearing on passenger side, very slightly worn lower ball joint on driver's side, and a leaking evaporator core for the A/C.
All this was oringinal stuff.
The owner of the shop told me that normaly on a vehicle of this age and mileage, he would say "your crazy" but he had just driven my vehicle, and felt that my engine was running "perfectly" and the transmission was shifting "right on", and he felt that we would see 300K out of this vehicle.

My point is......it depends upon the overall vehicle condition.
You expect to have repairs over the life of the vehicle.
My mechanic told me that it is rare to see one that has been maintained as well as mine, so it is still in overall good condition.

As long as I feel confident in the vehicle, it is best to keep running it.
New minivans don't get much better fuel economy than my '96, and I consider the yearly depriciation rate of a newer unit.......as mine is paid for.......I think of what payments would be on a newer one.....and the depriciation.......
However, if the condition of my vehicle were such that I felt that it was not going to be a good vehicle for the next year or years......then I would certainly look to replace it.

In my case.....my mechanic was telling me that mine looks good for more than another 100K miles.......so....what would I spend on another vehicle that would be of equal condition?....I say a lot more than $1200!!!!!!!

So, as with any major repair....one has to look at the overall vehicle condition and how long they plan to keep the vehicle.
I know people who replace because they "get tired of" their vehicle.
My cheapness overcomes any "get tired of" that I might have.....a vehicle is a tool to me....not a fashion statement.
I don't have money to justify on "get tired of" at the tune of $15000 and up.
When it is time to replace....then I can justify it.

10 year unlimited warranty on springs from FORD

Any chance any of the parts I'm having trouble with fall under any warranties or recalls in the case of the updated stuff?

You would have to check with FORD on your vehicle.
I have a Alldatadiy subscription, that inludes all the TSB's, and that is how I know about the spring warranty for my vehicle.
HOWEVER, My subscription only lists what is applicable to my 1996 windstar.
It is worth checking out though.....but don't expect it to be covered.
If you have an extended warranty, then it should be covered.

TSB is a Technical Service Bulletin, which is information to help the dealership service a vehicle.
So it has information on troubleshooting practices, updated parts, common problems, and information on any other changes to already distributed information for given vehicles.
So they may extend a warranty program for a given failure, such as corrosion on the springs causing them to fail, the extention of warranty coverage for head gaskets on 1995 3.8L windstars, or they may just give information as to what causes a common problem, and the service procedures to repair it.

It is NOT a recall, in which you can expect something is being fixed for free.

If I was planning to keep the van, I would fix it to the best level that I could.
.

No doubt about it, if the van is solid, clean and you are going to keep it long term. I would only consider the IMRC "delete" option if none of the above apply. Some of the above apply? I would try to 'patch' it over replacing the lower intake manifold. I know in my case, my 2001 looks and performs mechanically near new, aside from some front suspension noise. I go overboard on all maintenance. Thing is- she wont make much past 100Kmi without having holes in the body. I'm at ~87Kmi now and had body work done already some years ago. 10yrs is about the absolute max for a daily driver in my area. Usually shorter. :disappoin

Joel

I would only consider the IMRC "delete" option if none of the above apply. Some of the above apply? I would try to 'patch' it over replacing the lower intake manifold.

What is the "delete" option?

and how do you "patch it" instead of replace lower intake?

I just want it to pass inspection & make the light go off so I can sell it...

It has some rust forming at the bottom of driver side sliding door...I need to rid myself of it...

Thanks guys...