99 Windstar ignition problems
Dadvw
10-30-2007, 12:03 AM
I have a 99 Windstar 3.8L that is having ignition problems. At 100K miles, I changed the plugs. I installed the plugs (regular plugs not double plat) because the parts store gave me the wrong ones, too late to exchange, etc. At 115K, my wife says the van is running rough. I drove it and told her it was in the ignition system. I replaced the plugs with double plat, and when removing the plugs, I believe plugs 3 & 6 showed signs of not firing (trying to remember) 6 is correct, 3 is ? So I ran it, no fix. Replaced the wires, no fix. Replaced the coil assembly, no fix. I am at a loss here. Any CEL was cleared when I started this due to pulling the negative on the battery. Any suggestions or experience in this area?
Dadvw
10-30-2007, 04:45 PM
Update: After reading some google searched info, I replaced the crankshaft sensor. Still no fix. I also tested the cylinders with a timing light and determined that cylinders 3 and 4 are not firing. What is interesting about this is the coil pack (as I call it) is laid out in this order looking at it from the front of the engine:
5 1
6 2
4 3
So, from what I can deduct, these 2 cylinders are on the same coil. Maybe wrong, but it is what it appears. I checked the plugs, they are ok. Wires are ok. Looks like I may have a wiring problem to the coil or somewhere else. Also, have a check engine light on, don't have the tools to check it. Any ideas?
5 1
6 2
4 3
So, from what I can deduct, these 2 cylinders are on the same coil. Maybe wrong, but it is what it appears. I checked the plugs, they are ok. Wires are ok. Looks like I may have a wiring problem to the coil or somewhere else. Also, have a check engine light on, don't have the tools to check it. Any ideas?
wiswind
10-31-2007, 01:37 AM
You can have your code(s) read at most auto part stores for FREE ( my favorite word).
However, make sure to ask for the actual code.
They normally do not give it to you unless you ask...as most peope would be confused by it.
The windstar is known to have issues with dirty fuel injectors.
The injectors are very reliable....but dirt can built up inside the "end cap" which is over the spray end of the fuel injector.
I have had this problem several times....and chased all over the place trying to track down the problem.
I was directed, by my mechanic, to Berryman's B-12 Chemtool, which is sold at AutoZone and many other auto part stores.
Most fuel system cleaners are detergent based....Berryman's is solvent based....and has cleared the misfire issue more than once for me.
So, it is worth a try.
How are your spark plug wires?
When I replace spark plugs, or spark plug wires........I only remove 1 at a time.
It might take a bit more effort....but it TOTALLY eliminates the issue of getting wires crossed......connected the wrong place.
Whatever works......I goofed up a few times in the past.....so that system works for me.
Regular plugs will not last as long, but should work fine.
Autolite or Motorcraft "double" platinum are OEM.
Bosch +2 and +4 seem to not work so well in the windstar application.
Not that they are a bad product, but not the best for the windstar application.
However, make sure to ask for the actual code.
They normally do not give it to you unless you ask...as most peope would be confused by it.
The windstar is known to have issues with dirty fuel injectors.
The injectors are very reliable....but dirt can built up inside the "end cap" which is over the spray end of the fuel injector.
I have had this problem several times....and chased all over the place trying to track down the problem.
I was directed, by my mechanic, to Berryman's B-12 Chemtool, which is sold at AutoZone and many other auto part stores.
Most fuel system cleaners are detergent based....Berryman's is solvent based....and has cleared the misfire issue more than once for me.
So, it is worth a try.
How are your spark plug wires?
When I replace spark plugs, or spark plug wires........I only remove 1 at a time.
It might take a bit more effort....but it TOTALLY eliminates the issue of getting wires crossed......connected the wrong place.
Whatever works......I goofed up a few times in the past.....so that system works for me.
Regular plugs will not last as long, but should work fine.
Autolite or Motorcraft "double" platinum are OEM.
Bosch +2 and +4 seem to not work so well in the windstar application.
Not that they are a bad product, but not the best for the windstar application.
Dadvw
10-31-2007, 08:14 PM
Wires are new and fine. Coil pack is marked, so can't get mixed up even if I pull more than one off at a time. Bought a scan tool online to check CEL, will also try the Berryman's B12, although not usre how this will affect the missing spark on wires 3&4......
Dadvw
11-12-2007, 11:56 PM
Update: Did the Berryman's trick, no fix. I ran the scanner and the code that was stored in the computer was P0352. After triple and quadriple checking wiring, I found the ECM by the brake pedal under the dash. The ignition coil wires and all the underhood wiring plugs in to it. The wires look fine, nothing burned or broke. Is it possible that the computer is defective and is causing my problem? I have never had a computer go bad before, but it looks like this is the last item on the list, other than a camshaft sensor. What do you all think?
12Ounce
11-13-2007, 09:13 AM
I would do a pin-to-pin check out of the wiring harness ... from the ignition coil to the PCM. If you intend to keep the car, you may want to buy the wiring diagram book for your model year. Look for it at Books4cars.com or Helminc.com. $35 - $50.
Dadvw
12-03-2007, 01:05 AM
I would do a pin-to-pin check out of the wiring harness ... from the ignition coil to the PCM. If you intend to keep the car, you may want to buy the wiring diagram book for your model year. Look for it at Books4cars.com or Helminc.com. $35 - $50.
Yes, this is what I had to do. After changing the computer and the tech messed up programming that has the theft light blinking and no start condition, I checked the wiring harness and found an open wire to the coil pack. Repaired that, and taking to another dealer to reprogram the keys so I can start and run the van. Wife is wanting her vehicle back......:frown:
Yes, this is what I had to do. After changing the computer and the tech messed up programming that has the theft light blinking and no start condition, I checked the wiring harness and found an open wire to the coil pack. Repaired that, and taking to another dealer to reprogram the keys so I can start and run the van. Wife is wanting her vehicle back......:frown:
12Ounce
12-03-2007, 06:34 AM
Glad you had some success. Are you saying you bought the wiring diagram?
Just for reference, on the '99, the PCM is located under the hood near the RH hood hinge. Best to remove the cowling for access. You probably know all this already.
Just for reference, on the '99, the PCM is located under the hood near the RH hood hinge. Best to remove the cowling for access. You probably know all this already.
Dadvw
12-03-2007, 10:40 AM
Glad you had some success. Are you saying you bought the wiring diagram?
Just for reference, on the '99, the PCM is located under the hood near the RH hood hinge. Best to remove the cowling for access. You probably know all this already.
Yes, made the dealer tell me where it was at after they put a new one on. I didn't buy the diagram, just found the harness and broke out the digital VOM and had the wife help me by holding one lead on one end and me finding wire colors and checking them at the computer, with everything powered down of course. Wasn't difficult, just had to know where the computer was. Didn't suspect it to be where it was, thought it was inside the vehicle. So, when I finally get it to run again (due to a defective theft module) I will post my whole situation and maybe some pics for others to learn from and not make the same mistakes I did and save them some money. As they say, education is never free......:frown:
Just for reference, on the '99, the PCM is located under the hood near the RH hood hinge. Best to remove the cowling for access. You probably know all this already.
Yes, made the dealer tell me where it was at after they put a new one on. I didn't buy the diagram, just found the harness and broke out the digital VOM and had the wife help me by holding one lead on one end and me finding wire colors and checking them at the computer, with everything powered down of course. Wasn't difficult, just had to know where the computer was. Didn't suspect it to be where it was, thought it was inside the vehicle. So, when I finally get it to run again (due to a defective theft module) I will post my whole situation and maybe some pics for others to learn from and not make the same mistakes I did and save them some money. As they say, education is never free......:frown:
12Ounce
12-03-2007, 11:23 AM
Ouch! A new PCM ... that I hope you needed (but doubt that you did)!
I find myself buying, at least, the diagram manual for any auto I buy ... has always "made" me money in savings.
I find myself buying, at least, the diagram manual for any auto I buy ... has always "made" me money in savings.
Dadvw
12-03-2007, 11:51 AM
Ouch! A new PCM ... that I hope you needed (but doubt that you did)!
I find myself buying, at least, the diagram manual for any auto I buy ... has always "made" me money in savings.
I have done that in the past, but I find myself not realy needing it. With what I have spent, it would have paid for itself this time. I have the 3 manuals for the Pontiac Transport that I bought still sitting here, not needing them. If someone would pay the shipping, they can have them. Didn't need the ECM.....:frown:
I find myself buying, at least, the diagram manual for any auto I buy ... has always "made" me money in savings.
I have done that in the past, but I find myself not realy needing it. With what I have spent, it would have paid for itself this time. I have the 3 manuals for the Pontiac Transport that I bought still sitting here, not needing them. If someone would pay the shipping, they can have them. Didn't need the ECM.....:frown:
Dadvw
12-05-2007, 12:38 AM
Success! It is finally working. Here is my story about the repair process. Hopefully, some can learn from my mistakes and save themselves some time and money.
The original problem started with the van running rough. One day it's fine, next day the wife comes in and tells me that her van is running rough. I check it out and determine it is an ignition problem. So, I change the plugs since it has 116,000 miles on it and while changing the plugs I notice the spark plug wires are not all the same kind (2 were different), so I put a new set of those on too. The van still runs rough. So I get a timing light and find 2 cylinders that are not firing (3-4). So I figure it is the coil pack since the wires are all ok and secure. So I order a coil pack and replace it, still runs rough. I then read about the possibility of the crank sensor causing this problem, so I replace it. No fix. Next, I order a scan tool since the CEL is on and it tells me that I have code P0352 set (ignition coil "B" circuit primary or secondary fail). So, since doing some research, I found out the computer controls the grounds to the ignition coils, I order a ECM and have it changed out. I took it to the dealer, told them what I wanted done, and the tech didn't seem to like it since they didn't troubleshoot it. I told them I wanted it changed because it was either that, or a wiring harness problem. So, what should have taken 1.5 hours to replace, took 3.5 hours. They told me that it was taking long because the battery voltage was low and when it is low, the programming won't work. So, they had to charge the battery, and reprogram the ECM and one ignition key. So, after this, still runs rough. I took it home and determine I have a wiring problem. I had the battery checked and it tested good. Since leaving the dealer, I had been using my wife's key to drive the van. But one day, I used my key. When I did, the computer then acted wierd, van wouldn't run over 3000 rpm, o/d light was flashing on and off, so I limped it back home. When I got home and shut it off and tried turning it back on, the theft light was blinking very quickly and it wouldn't start. In the mean time, I find the ECM and coil pack connector, and check for continuity on all four wires. One wire shows open circuit. So I repair that wire, and put every thing back together. I call the next dealer, and they tell me to bring 2 keys, and they will check the programming. So I have it towed to the dealer, they check and program keys, no fix. They next determine the theft module is bad (code 1260 they said). So they replace the theft module, and it still won't start. They also made and programmed 2 new keys for this vehicle. So, I am wondering at this point what could be wrong now. When I tell the tech what had been done up to this point, he began to run some new checks and finds the battery voltage low again. So he charges the battery, and reprograms the ECM and it starts and runs on all 6 cylinders. So, with all that, my total cost for my troubleshooting and repairs was $742.00, which includes the cost of the scanner. Lessons to be learned? I am sure there are several. I won't be offended if you want to add your comments, since education is never free, I've paid my dues on this one. BTW, thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I just hope this helps someone else......:grinyes:
The original problem started with the van running rough. One day it's fine, next day the wife comes in and tells me that her van is running rough. I check it out and determine it is an ignition problem. So, I change the plugs since it has 116,000 miles on it and while changing the plugs I notice the spark plug wires are not all the same kind (2 were different), so I put a new set of those on too. The van still runs rough. So I get a timing light and find 2 cylinders that are not firing (3-4). So I figure it is the coil pack since the wires are all ok and secure. So I order a coil pack and replace it, still runs rough. I then read about the possibility of the crank sensor causing this problem, so I replace it. No fix. Next, I order a scan tool since the CEL is on and it tells me that I have code P0352 set (ignition coil "B" circuit primary or secondary fail). So, since doing some research, I found out the computer controls the grounds to the ignition coils, I order a ECM and have it changed out. I took it to the dealer, told them what I wanted done, and the tech didn't seem to like it since they didn't troubleshoot it. I told them I wanted it changed because it was either that, or a wiring harness problem. So, what should have taken 1.5 hours to replace, took 3.5 hours. They told me that it was taking long because the battery voltage was low and when it is low, the programming won't work. So, they had to charge the battery, and reprogram the ECM and one ignition key. So, after this, still runs rough. I took it home and determine I have a wiring problem. I had the battery checked and it tested good. Since leaving the dealer, I had been using my wife's key to drive the van. But one day, I used my key. When I did, the computer then acted wierd, van wouldn't run over 3000 rpm, o/d light was flashing on and off, so I limped it back home. When I got home and shut it off and tried turning it back on, the theft light was blinking very quickly and it wouldn't start. In the mean time, I find the ECM and coil pack connector, and check for continuity on all four wires. One wire shows open circuit. So I repair that wire, and put every thing back together. I call the next dealer, and they tell me to bring 2 keys, and they will check the programming. So I have it towed to the dealer, they check and program keys, no fix. They next determine the theft module is bad (code 1260 they said). So they replace the theft module, and it still won't start. They also made and programmed 2 new keys for this vehicle. So, I am wondering at this point what could be wrong now. When I tell the tech what had been done up to this point, he began to run some new checks and finds the battery voltage low again. So he charges the battery, and reprograms the ECM and it starts and runs on all 6 cylinders. So, with all that, my total cost for my troubleshooting and repairs was $742.00, which includes the cost of the scanner. Lessons to be learned? I am sure there are several. I won't be offended if you want to add your comments, since education is never free, I've paid my dues on this one. BTW, thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I just hope this helps someone else......:grinyes:
CnlK
12-05-2007, 09:11 AM
Just curious, where did you find the open spot in the wire, or did you
splice in a new wire from connector to connector? I believe there is
another active post with a no spark on cylinders 1&5, your info might be helpful to them.
splice in a new wire from connector to connector? I believe there is
another active post with a no spark on cylinders 1&5, your info might be helpful to them.
Dadvw
12-05-2007, 11:55 AM
Just curious, where did you find the open spot in the wire, or did you
splice in a new wire from connector to connector? I believe there is
another active post with a no spark on cylinders 1&5, your info might be helpful to them.
I just spliced in a new wire from connector to connector to repair it. This open wire, was the original problem of it running rough. Yes, 1 & 5 are on the same coil as well. I would suspect this first if the engine code is in the computer for this, should be a P0351 or P0353.
splice in a new wire from connector to connector? I believe there is
another active post with a no spark on cylinders 1&5, your info might be helpful to them.
I just spliced in a new wire from connector to connector to repair it. This open wire, was the original problem of it running rough. Yes, 1 & 5 are on the same coil as well. I would suspect this first if the engine code is in the computer for this, should be a P0351 or P0353.
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