Shuttering

Guys,

Need a little help. About 6 months ago my Winnie started to shudder slightly under light to moderate acceleration, usually going up inclines. Wasn't too bad so ignored it. Got a little wrose so I performed the "Isolator Bolt" fix. Replaced bolts, gaskets, plugs, wires. Whole 9 yards. It's continued to get worse and has increased in intensity and frequency. The tranny was rebuilt at 65K and fluid was changed at 95K. Only fluid was changed not filer, screen, and gasket. Car now has 119K on it, so it's been 25K since fluid change. Is it reasonable to think that the shudders are from the tranny ?? If so i will get them to do a full flush with Mecron V. Anyone know a good one or is it good enough if I have them use whatever their Mecron V is ? What else could this be is not the tranny ? alos, I've seen that some have put a additive in the fluid to help with shudders ... what is it and is it safe for the tranny ?

Thanks,

AvalonJohn

When was the fuel filter last changed?

About a year and a half ago ....

AJ

Any chance of hooking up a fuel pressure gauge and locating it so it can be watched while you drive up a hill?

At this point if you have not change the coil yet. You may need to wait and see. Most likely if it is the coil as it gets worse your CEL will start to blink..Then you will know the coil need replacing.. My coil seem to last in the 99,000 mile range. After the coil replacement a while later I notice my van began to shutter again but just mildly.. The dealer change the trans fluid and still no change.I did notice however after about 10 miles of city driving my trans would leak a little if I pulled my trailer to the dump which is 7 miles from my house it would leak and shutter very bad. Took to a trans guy and he said it may be the pump going bad. I put the red bottle Lube Guard in from NAPA and it has seem to help.. Don't know why. I have never been a big fan of bottle treatments.. But I may have to change my view on this one..I heard about this product on the Forum and NAPA sells it behind the counter the red cap gray bottle is not the same as the red box red bottle..But it may work for you if its your trans..

!2 Ounce/garync1,

I'll try each. I'll probably get a complete ATF flush first and go from there. garync1, should I use the Lubegaurd in the red bottle with the red box, right ? Do I use the whole bottle and is 1 bottle enough ?

AJ

Please don't get a machine flush from dealer or anyplace else. Too many issues with contaminants being left in tranny ... no way to avoid it.

A self-flushing, where you use the tranny pump, is what Ford recommends in the shop manual. No machines attached. You will find it discussed on this forum. I have used it several times on several vehicles.

I have no problem, or recommendation, about adding Lube-Gaurd ... may try it myself someday.

Your profile mentions a 1999 windstar, which is in line with the isolator bolt TSB you mention.
The '99 also had the issue with the front valve cover that is mentioned in the TSB information.

If the engine is causing the shudder and is not bad enough to cause the CEL to come on, it is a guessing game.
One other thing, which has been mentioned a lot on this forum is the Delta Pressure FEedback Sensor (DPFE).
It should cause a CEL if it is bad, but it is possible, like the ignition coil, to be slightly bad, but not bad enough to cause a CEL.

One thing that I HAVE struggled with in the past is the Windstar's tendancy to get dirt buildup at the spray end of the fuel injectors....and cause a slight miss, that has sent me chasing a couple of times.
For this reason, I would highly recommend that you get a metal can of Berryman's B-12 Chemtool fuel system cleaner.
They sell it at AutoZone and a number of other auto part stores.
It is one of the less expensive of the many choices of cleaners.
My mechanic gets the credit for tuning me in on this particular brand.
It is SOVENT based, whereas most are detergent based.
I will tell you that it DOES work....where many others do NOT.
This is one of the cheapest and easiest solutions......and a very likely fix.

For the transmission, I would change the fluid.
Also, a auxillary transmission cooler is a good idea.
I would also verify low speed radiator fan operation, as this will greatly help to keep the transmission cooler.
This is a easy test.
With the vehicle parked, turn the A/C ON, and check to see if the radiator fans are running.
The fans should be on anytime that the A/C is ON, and the vehicle is not traveling above a minimum speed.
If the fans are NOT running, then it is possible that the dropping resistor for the radiator low speed fan is defective.
I posted pictures of this item.

I also posted pictures of the transmission fluid change process.
They are in the pictures that the link in my signature will take you to.

!2 Ounce/garync1,

I'll try each. I'll probably get a complete ATF flush first and go from there. garync1, should I use the Lubegaurd in the red bottle with the red box, right ? Do I use the whole bottle and is 1 bottle enough ?

AJ
YEP only need one red bottle..

I'm having a similar problem on my 2001 Windstar SE and performed the EGR port cleaning procedure yesterday, which is detailed here:

http://leckemby.net/windstar/windstar01.html

My check engine light went out after I did this EGR port cleaning but I'm still having a miss and lousy gas mileage now. This van has 66,300 miles and the original plugs, wires, and fuel filter. Before this happened this van ran strong for a 3.8L, and it happened shortly after putting some fuel in at a gas station. Could it have been bad gas that did something to my fuel filter? My one and only code was P0303 for a miss in cylinder 3, the CEL was flashing then shone steadily, then back to flashing.

I checked the wires visually in pitch darkness for any sparking or arcing; nothing at all. I'm going to try the IAC cleaning procedure next to see what that does. I ran a can of SeaFoam in the gas tank last week and nothing changed.

I'm pretty sure I can change out the fuel filter on this van myself, but do I need a special tool to do it? Not relishing the thought of jacking it up, crawling under there to change it out and then get a little bit of gas sprayed on me for my trouble! The smell stays with you for a long time! Hopefully it's something simple - I've called around for price quotes on a tune-up for this van, average seems to be $300! I could do a tune-up myself but I am NOT a contortionist! The front cylinders (4, 5, and 6) seem easy enough to get to, but the back 3 (1, 2, and 3) are impossible to reach. Sure hope it's not the infamous coil. Is a coil replacement something I can do? What's the cost on these?

Thanks for helping a newbie to this forum out! This problem is really pesky and I'd like to get it taken care of quickly and for as little as possible. The van has a couple other things wrong with it; the infamous heater blend door problem, the driver's side window motor is bad, the speedometer jumps around at speeds above 40 MPH, and on the freeway I get an intermittent "CHECK TRANSMISSION" in the data window.

I had a bad fill-up on a vacation trip once. Too much alcohol, I believe. Immediately the engine began loosing power ... and it worsened until I found and replaced the fuel filter. This time I let a mom-pop service station do mine since I was on the road.

The fuel filter is easy enough to change. I would advise getting one from the Ford dealer ... just to make sure the retaining clips are correct. I've seen some ill-fitting clips supplied with aftermarkets. You don't want that thing coming loose! Just a pair of pliers perhaps ... depends on your finger strength.

The rear plugs are easy also ... after you bite the bullet and remove the plastic cowling.

I cleaned the IAC valve - it shines inside now - and no change. I'm wanting to change the fuel filter next before I perform the tune-up.

If it comes down to the tune-up (wires, plugs, DPFE sensor - where is this on the 2001?? Can't find it!) would removing the cowl give me enough space to get the rear cylinders from up top instead of having to use my ramps?

Thanks!!

I find the rear of the engine area pretty easy to reach with the cowl off. Just takes some cardboard, or rubber gym floor tiles, across the engine and radiator to take care of the old tummy.

Well I changed the fuel filter, not too bad to do. No special tools aside from an 8mm socket on a screwdriver attachment to loosen that clamp, and used my fingertips to press in those buttons on the lines leading to each end of the filter. Of course I'm exactly as I didn't want to be - can't get that damned gasoline smell off my fingertips!

No difference in the van by the way, still runs and idles rough. Looks like I'm gonna have to do the tune-up with the double platinum plugs, new wire set, new coil pack, and the EGR/DPFE sensor since I'll be in there anyway. Where exactly is the DPFE sensor on a 2001 anyway? It's not in front where I can see it!

At least my EGR ports are clean. And my MAF is clean too.

Thanks!!

Got a '99, I know the problem!

I did the isolator bolt fix, valve cover, plugs, EGR valve, DPFE sensor, fuel filter, B-12 chem tool in gas tank and in intake manifold. And it still shuddered at all speeds under moderate to heavy acceleration.

So, I broke down and paid $110.00 to the stealership, for a professional diagnosis. They quoted $300.00 (in addition to the diagnostic charge) to replace the Vapor Canister Purge Valve. Yeah right. Took my car back untouched.

Bought the part online from Rock Auto for $40.09 shipped! And swapped it out with the old one in less than 10 minutes.

Now, my '99 Windstar is actually fun to drive. Stepping into the gas pedal causes it to roar and scream as it doles out its 200+ ponies.

Vapor Canister Purge Valve - does the 2001 have this too? I would assume so, and where is this at in case it does the same when I change out the DPFE?

The Vapor Canister Purge valve is bolted to the firewall, directly behind the upper intake manifold, to the right of the interior fresh air intake duct.

It is black with a green cap. It has two hoses connected to its right side and one hose connected to its bottom side. And it has an electrical connector attached just above its bottom side hose.

Thanks! I found my DPFE by the way, nestled in behind the upper intake manifold! I should have changed it when I had it all apart but I didn't know about it then. Instead of going through that again I'm going to try to remove the cowl piece tonight and replace the DPFE sensor. The one I bought has a different design than what's on there now, however, but it does have the 2 vacuum inlet/outlet and the electrical connector socket, just no mounting holes. I did get the right one though.

Wish me luck.

I found the REAL DPFE sensor to the left of the battery and below the EGR valve itself. Changed it and it's running a little better but still not to my liking. Since I have the cowl off I'm going to change the Vapor Canister Purge Valve and see what that does.

Sure hope I don't have to do the plugs/wires and coil pack......

Is this shuddering constant, or just intermittent? Also, does it feel like the steering wheel is shaking, or only the wheels? Does it seem to be coming from one side or another?

I have a shudder that happens about once every few minutes, lasts for only 1 sec or less, and doesn't seem to be related to engine load or the speed (although you need to be traveling at something greater than 20 mph).

I've changed both lower control arms and both inner tie rods. The outer tie rod ends and the struts seem fine. I've noticed wear on the front stabilizer?? bushings. There also seems a bit of movement at the power steering bushing/seal on the passenger side, but no leakage of power steering fluid.

The transmission was recently completely rebuilt, and there is also a misfire DTC for cylinder four. I changed the plugs, but not the wires. I also replaced all the push rods as this engine has 205k on it and there was significant valve tapping. Although this improved the tapping, some is still apparent, which probably indicates some lifters need service. However, checking with a stethoscope indicates the remaining valve noise is coming from the 1-2-3 (back) valve train, not the 4-5-6 (front).

At this point, I'm not sure if my shudder comes from the suspension, the transaxle, or the engine misfire.

BTW, although I don't share your displeasure for the smell of gasoline, I think the orange-based hand cleaners remove it fairly effectively.

To be honest the shuddering is going to be tough to find tell what ever fails.. Mine I am thinking at this point is my trans although after the Lube guard it started doing it more, although I did clean the motor yesterday after changing the oil..So that may come into play on mine. Its not leaking anymore though.. :shakehead I know the first time it was bad and CEL blinked and the coil was bad..Now I just don't care.. If it goes it goes. In your case look for a rough road to see if your shudder start after to rule out suspension.. That may help..

tbirddmnd,
Remember to try what I recommended a couple of posts before your first post.....the Berryman's B-12 Chemtool.
I chased all over, cleaning, and replacing things before I learned about this.
I was even using a product in a "maintenance dose" with nearly every fillup.
My mechanic just smiled when I told him this.....and explained about the solvency being needed to cut the junk inside the end cap over the spray end of the fuel injector.
I posted a couple of pictures of the spray end of one of my fuel injectors, one dirty, and one clean, in the pictures that the link in my signature takes you to.

This is one of, if not the cheapest thing to try.....and the Berryman's is one of the less expensive fuel system cleaners.

Thanks everyone for your comments and my apologies to the thread starter for "hijacking" it!

I don't think my problem is related to the tranny. It started right after I put about $15 worth of gas, bringing it up to about 1/4 tank. I had the blinking check engine light and then it went steady. So far I've performed the EGR port cleaning, changed the fuel filter, the DPFE sensor and no change other than the CEL went out. Still a bit rough at idle and it's "chugging" when accelerating on the road. I just pulled spark plug #3 (remember my code was P0303 for a misfire on cylinder 3) and it looks normal for having 66,500 miles on it. Ever so slight carbon deposits on the outer edge, and the electrode is fine too. I'm going to give it a quick cleaning and put it back in.

Wiswind, last night I put a can of Berryman's B-12 in the tank when I drove it to put in a few gallons of gas right after I changed the DPFE sensor. I could only go to 1/2 tank. It's going to have to be driven for the solvent to work through the injector or at least idled for a while in the driveway. My wife doesn't want to drive the van when it's like this at all and has asked me to get this taken care of by Monday. At this point I don't think it's the plugs and wires. I ordered a Vapor Canister Purge Valve from rockauto.com like ibia22 did a few posts back just to see if that would help. It should arrive on Friday or Saturday. At this point I'll try anything. But I don't want to take it to the stealership to plug it in to their diagnostic instrument and have to pay over $100, or any place else either. I'd rather try to take care of this myself even though I'm not a mechanic, but I can turn a wrench if I need to.

Still stumped for now!

I've cleaned ALL the plugs, they weren't bad at all, checked the wires for snugness and cracks. Nothing at all that I can see. It still runs rough.

Forgot to indicate that the shuddering is constant. You can visually see the engine shake slightly and it never did that before the problem started.

Something I forgot to mention after I cleaned the EGR ports: when the gas pedal is pressed you can hear a "sucking" or "gulping" of air before the throttle responds. It lasts about a quarter of a second. The van has power, it wants to run, but something's holding it back. When I manually flip back the throttle I can see the upper intake manifold "rise" and when I let the throttle go it goes back down. Seems to be coming from the area where the IAC valve connects to the manifold and around that back edge. This "sucking" of air and the way it's running almost seems like a vacuum line is disconnected. When I put the upper intake manifold back on it went on easily and I tightened all the bolts. This is something new and I don't think it affects the problem that happened in the first place.

Getting fed up with this van I think!

When you remove the intake did you remove the cowl.? If you did not there is a good chance you missed or removed a vac hose.. In behind the intake and they are hard to see you have 2 or 3 hoses that go to the intake plenum.2 are on the passenger side and there is one and the middle if i recall.. But over all you may have a vac problem now.. They can be tuff to locate though.

I didn't remove the cowl but I did re-connect all the vacuum hoses back there. There were the ones you mentioned and no other ones.

Today I get that Vapor Canister Purge Valve and as I install it I will triple-check all the connections, as well as make sure all the manifold bolts are tight.

I changed the Vapor Canister Purge Valve and no change. Still has a rough idle and drives bad. I re-checked the vacuum hoses and the upper intake manifold bolts and all were fine.

EDIT: I also changed the plugs and wires (that was an adventure - especially the back cylinders 1-3! Guess I AM a contortionist!) and no change. It drives a little "stronger" but there's a "flutter" and the engine still shakes. You can feel it as you sit in the driver's seat. I drove it up to the AutoZone where I bought my plugs and wires and the guy there could hear a vacuum leak from the area of the IAC. He suggested I spray some starter fluid (contanes ether) around the intake and IAC to see where the leak could be. He said if the engine idles up faster then that's where the leak is.

This thing ain't gonna beat me.

>He suggested I spray some starter fluid (contains ether) around the intake and IAC to see where the leak could be. He said if the engine idles up faster then that's where the leak is.

You can do the same with a propane torch (unlit). Check the PVC tube that runs from the top of the intake plenum to the back valve cover. I've replaced that twice due to deterioration of the rubber joints.

Also, vacuum leaks can often be hear sooner than seen. If the guy at Autozone heard it, stick your head in there while it's running (careful with hair and clothes around the moving parts!!!). I found one behind the engine where a vacuum line went from the back of the plenum to the fire wall. The line had rubbed against another part until a hole was worn in the line.

Thanks but I don't have a propane torch and I'm not going to pick one up just for this, I'll buy a can of starter fluid for $2.99!

I went to check the snugness of the upper intake manifold bolts and I broke one off! So I can add that to my list of problems.

I checked and re-checked all my vacuum lines and they are all fine with no cracks or loose fittings.

I sprayed the starter fluid around where I've been hearing the gulping air and I can find no evidence of a vacuum leak.

I re-cleaned the MAF and put it all back together. I got a new code, just 1, code P0171, system too lean for the left bank 1.

The guy at AutoZone told me it was just for one oxygen sensor. Dunno which one. I have a feeling this may be related to that "gulping" of air that I've been hearing. Do I take a chance and start playing with the O2 sensors?

Still no change at all, haven't had the time or the cash to change the front 02 sensors.

What is your current code?

I still have code P0171, system too lean for the left bank 1.

Car "acts" like the 02 sensor is bad, and it's running rich - you can smell it on the passenger side the most.

I still have code P0171, system too lean for the left bank 1.

Car "acts" like the 02 sensor is bad, and it's running rich - you can smell it on the passenger side the most.
You could change the O2 sensor but I don't think its the problem but it may be worth replacing.. Go with Bosh not the cheap one. You can check it with a volt meter its in the haynes book.. I think also there is a post where it tells you how to check this as well.If you smell gas it would be running rich not sure why you would get a code for lean bank one. 172 rich bank 1. 175 would be rich bank 2. If the O2 replacement does not work you may have to take to dealer to have the PCM reprogrammed or check for faulty fuel injector..

You can also switch the upstream oxygen sensor from side to side.
The upstream sensors are mounted in the pipe, BEFORE the catalytic converter.
So, the sensor will be in between the exhaust manifold and the catalytic converter.
On my '96 3.8L, the sensor for the rear bank of cylinders is up, before the bend in the pipe......so you might need a flashlight to see it.
I would get an "oxygen Sensor socket" to remove and install the sensor.

You could change the O2 sensor but I don't think its the problem but it may be worth replacing.. Go with Bosh not the cheap one. You can check it with a volt meter its in the haynes book.. I think also there is a post where it tells you how to check this as well.If you smell gas it would be running rich not sure why you would get a code for lean bank one. 172 rich bank 1. 175 would be rich bank 2. If the O2 replacement does not work you may have to take to dealer to have the PCM reprogrammed or check for faulty fuel injector..

If the computer is sensing a lean condition it will try to increase the richness of the fuel air mixture. When the fuel air mixture is as rich as the computer can set it, it sets the CEL for still being too lean. Bottom line, a code that says lean causes the engine to run rich and a code that says rich causes the engine to run lean.

Well I'm no further in fixing this. I re-cleaned the MAF, lost the check-engine light but there's no change in the way it runs. I just put in a new PCV valve and still no change. Took it for a quick test drive around the block and I got a couple of backfires up front. Still no light.

It wants to run but something's holding it back.

I believe the spark cables are hooked up in wrong order. Don't try to "keep up with the cable order", I personally don't like that. Learn the cable layout from Haynes, or whatever, then the cables are never again to intimidate you. AutoZone has an online maintenance reference "book" that only goes to 1998 ... but the cable/firing order should be the same as yours.

Are you still avoiding removing the cowl? You otta take it off, and drive around a couple of days that way ... enjoy a new freedom! ...just don't get caught in the rain.

Hey 12ounce, thanks for the reply. Don't think it's the new cables. I put them on one-by-one in the same order that I took them off. I had the neighbor just look at it, he's a heavy construction equipment mechanic. He says it's either a bad EGR valve or I need a new MAF sensor. He says he has to go to a junkyard in the next couple of days and he'll pull a MAF for me.

I did pull the cowling to change the wires and plugs back in October - what an adventure it was to get it off and change the wires. I did drive with it off for a few days though.

We'll see what happens next.

Please, .... humor an old man. Use the Haynes or the on-line Autozone service to confirm that the cables are in the correct order.

http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1d/30/20/0900823d801d3020/repairInfoPages.htm

By the way you can clear the EGR of suspicion, by disconnecting and plugging, the vacuum hose that goes to the EGR valve. Give it a drive and see if there is any change.

It only took a little over 4 months!

My problem was not with any of the TSBs! After changing everything I did, fuel filter, sensors galore, plugs/wires, and also the valve cover with all the gaskets as well as ones for the throttle position sensor and the idle air control valve, AND new isolator bolts with new PCV valve and hose and fuel pressure regulator hose and it STILL running rough I decided to pursue a new target. It all boiled down to two words:

IGNITION FRIGGIN' COIL!!!!

Engine doesn't shake at idle anymore and it runs like a scared rabbit! Problems gone and wife is happy.

Thanks again to everyone who responded for your help and guidance!

That is amazing, I believe Gary hit on the nail while back on this post. Thanks for posting the conclusion to this problem as it gives us more insight into correcting it in the future.

What's the best way to diagnose an ignition coil?

Can it be done with an OBD computer? If so, what's the procedure?

Dunno about how to diagnose a coil pack, maybe Googling may help, but I should have changed it when I did the plugs and wires. It just wasn't in my budget when I bought the wires and plugs. So I ended up chasing other areas.

It runs phenomenal again! Gary was right!

I explain testing the coil in another post that I attached here. It is post #13 and presently is at the end.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=884748
These numbers are good for '95 to '01. Earlier years could be the same, but the procedure is still the same. I forgot to mention on the other post to also test to see if each of the plug wire contacts on the coil is not grounded out to the body of the coil. Also test to see if the positive primary contact is not grounded. Grounded for any is bad.

I know Auto Zone auto parts checks your alternator, starter motor and such for problems, but does anyone know if they also check coils?

Don't know. Call around. I also have provided the test procedure in more than one thread here in the windy forum recently.

The resistance check of the coil is VERY good.
However, it will not catch arcing due to a crack in the epoxy.....a common failure.

Sometimes you can tell your coil is cracked if you find leaked oil around or on it. The coils inside are packed in oil. If the arcing is occuring on the exterior, you may be able to see a discolored line like mark on its outside.
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