Misfire on cylinder 1 and 5

Hello

I had my front engine seal replaced and immediately after that (10min) my van started misfiring and has been doing so for the last month ??? It misfires in the exact same place everyday on my out the highway and into town on the highway within 1/4 mile of each other on opposite sides of the highway but only if I keep my speeds around 110kms(65mph) or above. I can drive around all day in the city and never have a problem until I head out the highway. But today it misfired at another location on the highway. I am changing the plugs , wires and coil this week but it almost seems fuel related or elevation related because it only seems to happen going down hill or uphill

Please advise

Thanks

What model year and engine is your Windstar?

2002 Windstar Sport 3.8L

Para,

How many miles on your Winnie and have you ever replaced the Isolator bolts ? Also, have you taken it somewhere to have the codes read ? If so what are the codes ? Codes P171 & P174 most likely mean that the Isolator Bolts & ERG ports need to be replaced/cleaned.

AvalonJohn

Approx 130,000 kms(80miles). I just bought it approx a year ago but I would say thay have not been replaced. Codes P0301 and P0305

Para,

I would start with some fuel injector cleaner. You may have a dirty or clogged fuel injector. Many have recommeded Berrymann's Chemtool B-12 which can be gotten at many auto stores. I'd use two treatments and go from there since that's the easiest to start with.

Also, has the car had a tune-up yet (Spark Plugs, Wires, Fuel filter) and inspection of the coil pack to see if it needs to be replaced ? You may want to do this now since it's recommeded that you'll need to do this at 96K anyway and that could be the problem or part of the problem.

If this doesn't help you can post on hear for more solutions. I"m thinking that eventually your going to have to perform the leckemby procedure to fix the misfire, but we'll see ? PO301 relates to the leckemby procedure.

Below are some codes form a post above from Wiswind that you may want to look over

*******************

P0300 Random cylinder misfire detected that PCM cannot narrow down to a specific cylinder
P0301 Misfire on cylinder 1 (rear bank passenger side) (often caused by clogged EGR ports
P0302 Misfire on cylinder 2 (rear bank middle)
P0303 Misfire on cylinder 3 (rear bank driver's side)
P0304 Misfire on cylinder 4 (front bank passenger side (often caused by clogged EGR ports)
P0305 Misfire on cylinder 5 (front bank middle)
P0306 Misfire on cylinder 6 (front bank driver's side)
Misfire can be caused by a spark issue, spark plug, spark plug wire, coil pack. or by a dirty fuel injector (very common), or nonfunctioning fuel injector
CEL will flash when misfire is happening indicating possible condition that can harm the catalytic converter(s) because if caused by no spark, raw fuel can be entering the catalytic converter.
Do a search on your P030x code for more information.

*************************************



Anybody have anything to add ?????

Hope this helps ?

AJ

After a lot of reading, I am starting to believe it's more like a DPFE sensor or 2 of my injectors have build up. If it was the injectors you would think it would happen all the time , especially when I kick it into passing gear. I have called all my local automotive places in my area and they don't carry Berryman's B-12 Chemtol. Anybody know where I could purchase this in Canada or a product thats almost as good.

Please advise

Thanks

After a lot of reading, I am starting to believe it's more like a DPFE sensor or 2 of my injectors have build up. If it was the injectors you would think it would happen all the time , especially when I kick it into passing gear. I have called all my local automotive places in my area and they don't carry Berryman's B-12 Chemtol. Anybody know where I could purchase this in Canada or a product thats almost as good.

Please advise

Thanks If you live close to the US border, Advance auto part store
has it and Walmart in their automotive dept. too. I live in Canada but never seen that here. Get mine in NY state.

If timing chain cover was removed when changing front seal, camshaft sensor alignment may be off.

Well, the plugs,wires and coil where changed and it still does it. I took the van on a 300km trip and it misfired approx 10 times (alway on a fairly steep downhill grade), but the engine light is not staying on so I can't say for sure its the same two cylinders.I was talking to the guy who did the front engine seal and the only thing electrical he disconected was the O2 sensor. It is possible for a O2 sensor to be causing these misfires on down grade slopes at speeds 110km + ?

Is there anyway possible for an 0xygen Sensor to cause a misfire on 2 seperate cylinders (1&5) ?

Thanks

I don't buy an oxygen sensor being the cause of only two cylinders misfiring. A perplexing problem...

Just saw an interesting post on another thread - even tho you replaced the coil and wires, look under the hood in the dark and see if there's any arcing - some aftermarket wire sets aren't any good, and you'll see sparks with brand-new wires.

Still, since it's 1&5, that's both ends of the same coil.

I would try the solvent based fuel system cleaner.
There are a couple of professional strength cleaners, though I have not tried them.
The fuel injectors on the windstar tend to build up crud on the spray end.....and the Berryman's is the ONLY cleaner that I have used that worked on this.
Chevron Techron, Redline Fuel System Cleaner, FP60, and other products did not work for this....although the rest of the fuel system stayed very clean.

Cylinder #1 is on the rear bank, driver's side.
Cylinder #5 is on the front bank, middle.
So you are seeing a problem on BOTH banks #1 and #2.
As the 2 cylinders are on the same coil....you might verify that the switching INTO the coil is working.
That comes through the plug on the coil, from the PCM.

Fuel pressure is a possible, and the best way to diagnose this would be to have the fuel pressure monitored at the fuel rail (there is a connection on the front, center of the fuel rail for this), while the vehicle is being driven on the highway.
Then, if the fuel pressure takes a drop when the misfire happens, you can suspect, most likely, a fuel pump issue.
That said......have you changed the fuel filter lately?...much cheaper than a fuel pump replacement, and routine maintenance anyhow.

If you come down to a fuel pump issue.
There have been posts about the fuel pump relay in the power distribution box causing intermittent to solid failure of the fuel pump function.....also MUCH cheaper and easier than a fuel pump replacement.
This relay is something that you can easily purchase and replace yourself.
There is also a "sock" filter on the fuel pickup part of the fuel pump assembly,...but that also requires removal of the fuel pump assembly to get to.
Removal of the fuel pump requires that the fuel tank be dropped.....so I would recommend you eliminate the other, easier items first.....including the wire connections to the fuel pump.

The only thing that I would expect with an oxygen sensor would be if the mechanic crossed the wires when re-connecting them, connecting the wrong sensors to the plugs.....very easy to do, but still not consistant with your symptom.
For this reason, I tend to agree that your oxygen sensors are most likely fine.
I replaced my upstream sensors with genuine motorcraft at about 155K miles, after having had lower intake manifold gasket leaks that leaked enough to leave a green stain on one of the sensors.
In my case, I did not notice any change at all in engine performance or fuel economy.
Yes, the replacement sensors are working just great, but the old ones were still good.
When you get codes like P0171 and/or P0174, that is the oxygen sensor(s) reporting a lean condition, which is almost always a vaccum leak.....causing too much air to enter the intake, and the PCM is not able to compensate for it.
There are other codes that would indicate a bad oxygen sensor, like indicating a problem with the heater circuit, or slow switching rate, etc.
In short, the oxygen sensors on the windstar are very reliable, and rarely fail.

If timing chain cover was removed when changing front seal, camshaft sensor alignment may be off.

Yes, I think that is a spark timing advance problem. When the front seal has been replaced, the camshaft sensor has been misaligned, and it has caused a modification of the spark timing advance which has caused an intermitent misfire problem to one pair of cylinders (1 and 5).

Sometime you don't have problem. But when the engine rev up at high speed, a lot of fuel is burned in a small period of time. The fuel is not totally burned and the system detect a misfire. Especially when the spark timing is not enough in advance.

It can occur to another pair of cylinders also.

I'm not saying the cps idea is wrong, but if it is misaligned I don't understand why it would only affect a few and not all of the cylinders. If the timing advance is off, it is off for all of the cylinders. Right? I don't understand how something that would affect all would only show symptoms with just a few. Or am I trying to be too logical and can't apply my thinking that way?

Because the timing advance is not totally off. It can be retarded of few degrees only so the engine is not at its optimal efficiency.

When the engine is running slow (<2500 rpm) and the gas pedal is not presed too much, almost all the gasoline can burn in the cylinder.

But when the engine is running fast in third gear (>3000 rpm) and the gas pedal is pressed a lot (at high speed, high acceleration and at uphill), a lot of fuel enter in the cylinder in a small period of time and the fuel is not totally burned. Especially if the spark timing is retarded of 5 degees and more.

It doesn't happen often, but when it happens, only one pair of spark plugs can be affected so this pair of cylinders misfire only. Because all the spark plugs doesn't fire all in same time. Only two at same time. If the engine misfiring, its rotary speed will be mechanically reduced, and the other cylinder will not misfiring.

It misfires only when it reaches a specific power and engine speed.

In one trip, only one misfiring can occur. One misfiring affects two cylinders.
If paradigmlxi scan his car after each long trip, he will detect other misfired cylinder.

As you mention that you "had" the work done, I would go back and explain the problem.
They may know right off what to check.
Ask them if they can check the Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS) for you.

Sometimes the mechanics at the shop have seen enough of the same vehicles, with the same issues.....that they can go right to the solution.

I had the same problem 2 years agon on my 3.8 lit 1998 windstar. I removed the intake manifold. the EGR holes on 1 & 5 were completely plugged. I cleaned them, EGR passages and replace the manifold seals.
The problem is gone.

I've searched forum and this thread seems to be best to ask about timing advance. What should be timing at idle? With everything off (AC, vent, radio, in Park...) I get timing advance 15-16. Shouldn’t it be 10-11 degrees? Putting anything on (shift to Drive) causes it to rise up to about 20-25, during drive I get 30-40. Are these readings correct?

The base setting is 10° at idle. When the engine accelerate and the load increase on the engine, the timing increase to have enough time to burn all the fuel. It's normal that your timing increase. But it's too high at idle, you need to test your ignition system with a timing light to see if your PCM is good or not. Or you need to adjust the CKP sensor position.

I'll just make a copy-paste:
Initial engine ignition timing is set at 10 degrees ±2 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) and is not adjustable.
The crankshaft position sensor (CKP sensor) (6C315) is a variable reluctance sensor triggered by a 36-minus-1 tooth trigger wheel located on the crankshaft pulley and damper.

So I guess theres nothing to adjust. I also found something like this and made a pdf file:
http://www.wrzuta.pl/pliki/ljYsbGvaIs/
click the "ściagnij plik >>" link to open the pdf.
The timing advance I get from OBD2 reader are within limits SPARKADV from file.
PS. If someone would like similare table for a 3.8l engine I can upload such and pass the link. This is a Polish site for hosting, and it doesn't pass garbage when downloading. If you pass me other host site adress I'll upload it over there

You are true about the crankshaft position sensor. I just talked about ultra fine tuning when you screw it on the timing cover. You can move it about 0.04", but it's not very important.

I suggest you to try the timing light test to see if the marks on the pulley is aligned with the one on the timing cover. It could indicate a misconfigured PCM.

I think that your PCM don't have the factory setting. This is possible.

read my thread http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=903467
you may get some ideas from that

be sure to make shure that you have no vacumm leaks, that was my worst problem

It's an interesting thread. Very complex! :)
But it can't explain the incorrect ignition timing advance of his van.
So I think that he has an timing advance problem.
Gobowiec, does your problem is new, or you alway got this problem?
Have you made modification, or it happen like that?

I suggest you to connect your OBD2 port to a computer and run a program than can tune your car. You can adjust your timing advance like that, by programming the PCM. It should correct your misfire problem.

but, I think that a vacumm problem can give you the syptoms of timing being off.

someone else had a problem with a crank pully that was not balanced which gave similar problems too

if it indeed is a timing issue maybe a crank sensor??

at any rate while the idea of using a computer to fix the idle may work it may only treat the symptom not cure the ill., I still think I would check and recheck all of the vacumm hoses

I don't think so. The timing is triggered only by the CKP sensor and the PCM. The vaccum hose and everything else don't interfere with the ignition.
Vaccum problem can cause misfire but no ignition problem.

If it was the CKP sensor, the engine will not run at all. So it's not that.

It's obvisouly a bad setting in the PCM.

Gobowiec, test your ignition with the timing light to be sure. Sometime the onboard system diagnosis don't give you the right timing value. Because the PCM can be slow to react.

Just for clarity on the CMP and the CKP, I have quoted from my Haynes manual the following, which I also cross referenced with Ford's Service manual to assure accuracy:

"the camshaft position sensor (CMP)...sends a voltage signal pulse to the PCM to indicate when the number 1 piston is approaching TDC on the compression stroke. The PCM uses this signal to synchronize and sequence the fuel injectors."

"The crankshaft position sensor (CKP)...signals to the PCM when the crankshaft is 60 degrees before TDC for cylinders 1 and 5. The PCM then... uses this information to control ignition spark advance. The CKP also provides the engine speed signal to the PCM and is part of the misfire monitor circuit...The OBD-II system can detect different CKP sensor problems and set DTC's to indicate the specific fault."

As per above the CMP does play a role in the ignition, though it is not as critical as the CKP. I have not independently verified for myself, but others have stated that the ignition system can still function relying only on the CKP if the CMP isn't working. However, a bad CMP should give a DTC like "P0340 Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor circuit malfuntion", but it can be manually tested if you doubt the lack or validity of a code. As per above the CKP will give a DTC if bad, but it too can be tested to verify its condition.

If this is an evasive timing misfire issue and all other normal avenues have been pursued fruitlessly, have you checked that the cmp and ckp are exactly position correctly? If you are suspicious of either, maybe try a borrowed or new one. You have definetely ruled out, replaced the coil, wires, plugs, and whatever else? Egr and opening cleaned? Pressure tested the cylinders?

I copied this from Wiswind's code thread from the top stickies. What caught my eye was the fact that the CEL will flach during a misfire event(s). He also lists several good things to look at, especially the fuel injectors.

"Misfire can be caused by a spark issue, spark plug, spark plug wire, coil pack. or by a dirty fuel injector (very common), or nonfunctioning fuel injector
CEL will flash when misfire is happening indicating possible condition that can harm the catalytic converter(s) because if caused by no spark, raw fuel can be entering the catalytic converter.
Do a search on your P030x code for more information."

on mine I had misfire codes on 4 and I changed the injector, then retested and had code for 2&5 so I changed those, it was while changing them that I noticed the vacume hose going to the evap being snapped off, I am wondering if that was my problem and my injectors were actually ok.

from my Haynes manual talking about the EVAP (Page 6-16)
Poor Idle, Stalling and poor drivability can be caused by an imoperative vapor managment valve, a damaged canister, spilt or cracked hoses connected to the wrong ports.
So the evap can cause the same symptoms as misfires in the cylinders. not saying that this is his problem at all, but still worth checking.

Everything concerning sparks, MAF, TPS, EGR and injectors was checked. Cylinder pressure is 9.5 – excellent. My Wini is a “poor” European version, doesn’t have misfire checking, only two O2 sensors before catalytic. Even the engine is weaker – 150HP, same they put in Ford Scorpio (don’t even know if sold in USA, cant find forum for it). I don’t get codes using laptop and ELM adapter. So with Snap-On – no codes. They even ran self-diagnosis using Snap-On and this also didn’t show any codes. I’ll try to check timing with the lamp. Can someone pass manual how to check/set timing, CMP and CKP to [email protected] ? I’ve been told that Windstar’s often have problems with camshaft. Also that timing I get from OBD2 is the timing from PCM. That’s why I get through OBD2 reading of 15-16 degrees (should within15-20 ). Now I have to check if the sensor is set 10+-2 degrees. When I read O2 sensor I get 0,2 – 0,7V and can’t find any vacum leaks, so I think this is not the problem.
Is this a new problem? For me not. I have it since I bought the car. First engine start is normal. Every next is more or less problematic. Sometimes I have to press gas pedal. The engine got new valves and gasket shortly before I bought it, but the previous owner says that it was like this before the repair. Maybe its because of LiquiMoly that was added to the oil – I wrote about it here http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=906420

Ok, to check the timing with the timing light, you clamp the inductive pickup wire around the #1 plug wire (top front left of you). Don't connect it, just clamp it.

Connect the supply lamp to your battery (+12V and ground).

Start your engine. Reach operating temperature (90°C) and turn it off.

Disconnect the SPOUT connector.

Turn engine on again, turn off ventillation. Put it on drive with handbrake.

Point the timing lignt at the pulley and see if the timing mark (on the pulley) is aligned with the timing pointer.

If it's not aligned, you have a misconfigurate PCM.

To set the PCM, you need to install a good OBD2 program on your laptop and try to do some tuning.

You don't need to check your CKP and CMP, but if you want to do it, connect an AC voltmeter between pin 5 and pin 6 of your SPOUT connector. Start your engine. If you have a voltage greater that 15mV, your CKP work.

For the CMP sensor, connect the positive of the DC voltmeter on the center pin of the CMP, and the negative on the ground. Let someone crank your engine and read voltage at same time. If the voltage is greater than 5V, it works.

So what would be a good OBD2 program for the ELM327 on a laptop?

Here is the best program for setting up the time ignition advance: AutoEnginuity PC Scan Tool: http://www.autoenginuity.com/downloads.shtml

For GM, JET Dynamic Spectrum Tuning is also a good program to tune your car: http://www.jetchip.com/JET_Chips_Modules.asp You can download a demo. It cover some cars: camaro, firebird, corvette, impala, cadillac, GM truck. JET Performance Programmers can also tune some Ford cars.

For just read car information, such fuel consumption, RPM, speed, engine load, fuel pressure, mass air flow, water temperature, timing advance, intake air temperature, intake manifold pressure, gas pedal position... use ScanTool.net:
http://www.scantool.net/index.php?mode=displaySoftware&software_id=39&category=ScanTool.net

if you already replace the plugs,wires,injectors..... well try to change ur PCM or reprogram it....