If theres a heaven....

I don't believe in god or heaven. But a popular belief is that when your loved ones die they go to heaven, where they look down on you. When you die you join them.

Well shit. I know I won't be able to look them in the eye if they've been watching me!

Imagine coming face to face with your grandmother, the only thing you can think about is the time you introduced your dick to the vacuum cleaner. (BTW I HAVEN'T done that - it was just an example)

I think I prefer the thought of no afterlife...

i can't comprehend looking at someone and them not thinking anyhting... i can't understand someone not having any kind of emotion or thought- imagine being placed in a box, and having worms crawl through you- :(


that is a weird issue i deal with

It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks as long as you think on your own two feet and can get in to good situations and out of bad ones, you will be alright. I believe their is a God, and a heaven. I believe in satan and the devil, but not the Stories in the bible. Too many tales seem like.

Ahkmid.

umm LIZARDKING has made this thread a confession booth for himself.
"introduced your dick to the vacuum cleaner"
he he he haven't done that yet

Nah, it was just something that bugged me about the idea of heaven. If it was true then all your family who died before you can see the shameful stuff you've done.

The vacuum thing was the most shameful thing I could think of that a person might do. NOT ME. :)

I would hope it was a physical impossibility for you to try it yourself Bella.

LizardKing
I would hope so too, or that would make me a freak or something *lol*

Oh yeah and about that shameful thing..........I have never done anything bad I am a good girl hehehe

Originally posted by bellaracing
Oh yeah and about that shameful thing..........I have never done anything bad I am a good girl hehehe

Good Little Girl ;)
Right?

Seb928S
Hey I am totally pure I have never done anything bad in my entire life, all 18 years of it *lol*

well, bella, I'll probably make a lot of enemies with the following advise, but that's cool cuz I like causing strife.

That last is not something you want to say in a forum filled with guys. It's just asking for trouble. Men have a natural desire to corrupt the pure, further corrupt the corrupted, and...well...corrupt. So sorry to say, but it's true: most of us are schmucks.

In many ways, I am a realist. I see heaven as a creation of early primitive minds, when virtually everyone believed in God and religion. People could not explain natural phenomena, and out of fear of the unknown, they created the idea of God, a supreme being who created earth and the heavens. Many to this day take comfort in the idea of a place called heaven, where if you "behave" yourself in life, you will have an afterlife without pain and suffering. I have nothing to either prove or disprove this notion. I can't deny that I do feel comforted in thinking that it could be real; so I say why not just accept that I will never know until the day I die, so have faith and keep your options open until that day does come to pass.

Conversely, I am very much against some of the teachings surrounding the notion of heaven. Think about the Middle Ages in Europe. For perhaps 600 years or more, the teachings of the church instructed people that life was merely an act of preparation for the afterlife. How unfortunate for them if there is no heaven, and they withheld themselves from partaking in countless naughty deeds for fear of the unknown, only in the end to get shafted by blowing their only chance at life. Hey, I could be wrong, maybe they were prepared for top billing in heaven with flying colors. Who am I to say?

It wasn't until the early to middle 15th Century when people began to reexamine life and dare to question the word of the church: this was the dawn of the Renaissance. Still, the church held a lot of pull with the way people thought and how they acted. But scientists began making discoveries that contradicted the teachings of the church, the very words of the Bible. I forget who, but one famous scientist had one of his disciples wait until his death to print and distribute his research findings as he wanted to avoid being excommunicated and labeled a heretic. The father of geology (I am sure my geology professors would beat the tar out of me for forgetting his name) in either the 17th or 18th Century in Scotland studied rates of erosion in rock formations near where he lived, and was able to easily prove that they were much, much older (in fact millions or even billions of years older) than the 6,000 to 7,000 years that had supposedly elapsed since the earth's creation. The list of examples of this sort can go on and on. The fact that only in the last decade did the Catholic church acknowledge that Columbus was correct in his assessment that the earth is, in fact, not flat, but rather round, is a laughable example of the impracticality of many religious teachings in contemporary times of scientific achievement.

I do not know the roots of atheism and agnostic beliefs, but one can be sure that with the influx of scientific knowledge into the lives of ordinary people, faith in God and the importance of religious belief have fallen by the wayside for increasing masses of people, particularly in our liberal society that permits people to think for themselves and express their beliefs more liberally than any other society in the world. Yet on the same token, for me personally, I can't help but believe in something. I can't say what. Is it fate? Is it a streak of good fortune in the grand scheme of things? I don't know. I do know that many things have happened to me that could have resulted in serious injury, dismemberment, or death… and they didn't. I can not explain them, and no one else I've ever met can either. But I can't ignore them. I see the world more clearly than Vincent Vega (a la Pulp Fiction), and to me these unexplained phenomena, however improbable and unprovable, provide for me faith in the all-mighty unknown. You want to call that God, so be it. I believe strongly that there is someone or thing looking out for me. I am forever indebted, and if I may be so presumptuous to say so, blessed.

It is so easy to find ways to disprove the existence of God. Yes, there are countless logical arguments that prevent God's disproval, but in everyday rational thought, the notion of God can easily be tossed to the wind. But finding something to believe in despite this it is a real trick. I find the idea of faith today to be stronger than it's ever been in history. And I find that faith in the unknown translates into faith in yourself, i.e. self-confidence and a positive outlook on the world at large.

So, in a nutshell, I do believe in God.

Hello All,
i'm a friend of Ichthus and I'd have to say I totally believe in heaven, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, hell and Satan.
So much in fact that's why i'm currently at a Bible College learning more about everything.
My question is how do you think this world, in all it's splendor and diversity, was formed? Do you really think it was just some far out cosmic 'mistake'?

I hate to say it, and go against that which has been handed down by the apostles, but yes, I believe it was a cosmic "mistake" (mistake is not usually the term I choose to use here) that formed everything.. unless it is masked to be as such except on very high levels that are as of yet out of our reach and perception. Maybe someday we will find that there are unexplained phenomena that no advances in scientific research are able to shed light upon.

What I believe in is different. Too intangible to put into layman's terms other than as I've outlined above.

I'm glad you are open to the possibility of God. I'm sure He's interested in you and is nuts about you.
On the other hand i'm sorry that it's hard for you to believe this universe and all created was developed and put into existence by this God you are open to the possiblity of.
I think he designed everything with love and for a purpose. every single this was created with much care.
basically i guess what i'm trying to say is, whether you believe it or not, God loves you and created you for a purpose.

You know, I don't doubt that. Not for a second. I do too many goofy things that I get away with unscathed, like I've said before, for there to be any doubt in my mind that there is something greater out there. But a little reassurance never hurt anybody, so thanks for your positive input.

no problem that's what i'm here for...

Gosh, must I really respond to this? I'm quite glad that this forum is rather slow in post-buildup right now and that I can safely wait till morning or after classes to respond to some things...hmmm Might as well get it over with. First, I will address this from a Christian standpoint, as that is what I know best...and I fail to see the point of being politically correct (especially when i disaggree with it's very essence).

I see heaven as a creation of early primitive minds, when virtually everyone believed in God and religion. People could not explain natural phenomena, and out of fear of the unknown, they created the idea of God, a supreme being who created earth and the heavens. Many to this day take comfort in the idea of a place called heaven, where if you "behave" yourself in life, you will have an afterlife without pain and suffering. .....
Conversely, I am very much against some of the teachings surrounding the notion of heaven. Think about the Middle Ages in Europe. For perhaps 600 years or more, the teachings of the church instructed people that life was merely an act of preparation for the afterlife. How unfortunate for them if there is no heaven, and they withheld themselves from partaking in countless naughty deeds for fear of the unknown, only in the end to get shafted by blowing their only chance at life.

It is a common misconception that the Bible is here to explain the world we live in. The Bible does NOT defy science. Science has not provided a single thread of evidence to disprove the Bible. By their very definitions you cannot use one to explain or disprove the other. They exist independant of oneanother. The Bible deals solely with the Supernatural, or that which is unexplainable by scientific means. It doesn't defy scientific law. It doesn't break scientific law. It has NOTHING to do with scientific law, they are separate concepts. Can I stress this enough?

Science is comprised of, primarily, observation. Nothing can be proven without direct observation of the act or occurance. In fact, according to chaos theory, regardless of how many times we observe something you cannot completely assume that it occured in the same way prior to direct observation.

Another common misconception is that goodworks alone will get you into heaven...or that Christianity believes this. In all honesty, I don't care how good or bad you are during your lifetime...and neither does God. I've heard that Jeffry Dahmer (sp?), the serial killer that ate his victims, used skin for lampshades, and kept body pieces in his fridge accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ just months before he was killed in prison. If true, even he is in heaven right now.

You see, mankind is NOT perfect, and therefore unworthy of heaven. According to the Bible, all we must do is accept Jesus Christ's forgiveness and believe he died and rose again in order to be assured our salvation. Odd and twisted? Yes. Simple and free? Absolutely. Impossible to accept? Only for those who are close-minded.

Bah, you wrote too much....

Do explain how following the Bible has in any way decreased the quality of my life? The Bible is not some huge rule book meant to limit what we do, but rather an instructional tool explaining how to live life to it's fullest and most rewarding. Everything God commands is meant to keep some harm from us or bring some good to us. When God created the world he said "It is good", and he meant it. Everything on earth is good. Sex, drugs, alcohol...it is all good. BUT ONLY WHEN USED/DONE IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, AND WITH THE APPROPRIATE PEOPLE!!! Only when done in excess and for the wrong reasons are drugs and alcohol bad. So, who, you ask is to define what is right and wrong? Well, in part those are answered in the Bible and can be summed up in the commandment "Treat your body like a Temple of God". Basically saying, be healthy in what you eat and ingest.

As for the whole "age of the earth" issue. That goes back to science being a study of observation. I remember one study based on the Mississippi River Delta in which they examined the sedimentary deposits to determine the age of the earth. Scientists immediately claimed that after examining the deposits it was found the earth was some billion or hundreds of millions of years old. Only a few days later it came out that only a couple sediments revealed any such thing and that the actual results showed a mean age of less than 10,000 years. Everyone ignoring the fact that the Mississippi would most likely NOT have been around for the entire earth's existence in anything close to its present form.

I have serious issues with the Catholic Church as a whole. For some very simple reasons, really...but in large part due to the fact that they do NOT take a literal interpretation of the Bible. They make far too many assumptions and label all those who go against them as heretics. It is run more as a beaurocracy than a church. The church leaders, at the time of Columbus decided the earth was flat,despite the fact that the Bible itself refers to the earth as being a sphere!!! What is more laughable is that anyone assumed the Catholic Church needed to acknowledge that the earth was anything but round...I can see it now: The Pope on his 5th flight around the world suddenly exclaims "Hey, we're going around in circles!!! And what's up with this big metal bird we're flying in!?!?!"

Oh, and it's impossible to disprove God's existence. He exists outside of time and our physical constraints and therefore cannot be disproven using them. As stated near the top of this...novel...

Let the debate begin...this could be quite fun and force me to procrastinate my studies yet again....

This will be fun. However, I will have to defer from further postings at least until tomorrow. It has been a long day and I can scarcely keep my eyes open. Looks like you won't get any more chances to procrastinate from me for now :)

Have a good nite... sleep well

Procrastination is a constant for me...at no time does it end :D

Argghh! I wish I didn't start this! *punches own face*

*regrets punching own face*

I should have known it would turn into a creation vs evolution topic. After the epic carform debates of old, I haven't the energy.

But I must ad a few things.

Science can't disprove the bible. But when the bible is just a book based on long past events and post death expectancies, how could anything ever disprove it? Nothing short of time travel could do it.

Religion gives people hope. But you don't need religion to have hope. Religion has been the cause of countless wars and attrocities. Religion might not be the direct fault, but effect it has on humans is.

Religion is just another thing that can seporate humans, just like race. Just another cause of trouble.

The scientific ways that we can show how old the earth is, or show how ludircous the ark story is (and most other bible stories), are far more solid than anything the bible can come up with.


I can't believe if contributed to this.... :)

Originally posted by bellaracing
Oh yeah and about that shameful thing..........I have never done anything bad I am a good girl hehehe

I think I have to agree with you on that one Bella ---I'm good girl too heheh, maybe I should try being bad once Huh?

Originally posted by ichthus
Gosh, must I really respond to this? I'm quite glad that this forum is rather slow in post-buildup right now and that I can safely wait till morning or after classes to respond to some things...hmmm Might as well get it over with. First, I will address this from a Christian standpoint, as that is what I know best...and I fail to see the point of being politically correct (especially when i disaggree with it's very essence).

I see heaven as a creation of early primitive minds, when virtually everyone believed in God and religion. People could not explain natural phenomena, and out of fear of the unknown, they created the idea of God, a supreme being who created earth and the heavens. Many to this day take comfort in the idea of a place called heaven, where if you "behave" yourself in life, you will have an afterlife without pain and suffering. .....
Conversely, I am very much against some of the teachings surrounding the notion of heaven. Think about the Middle Ages in Europe. For perhaps 600 years or more, the teachings of the church instructed people that life was merely an act of preparation for the afterlife. How unfortunate for them if there is no heaven, and they withheld themselves from partaking in countless naughty deeds for fear of the unknown, only in the end to get shafted by blowing their only chance at life.

It is a common misconception that the Bible is here to explain the world we live in. The Bible does NOT defy science. Science has not provided a single thread of evidence to disprove the Bible. By their very definitions you cannot use one to explain or disprove the other. They exist independant of oneanother. The Bible deals solely with the Supernatural, or that which is unexplainable by scientific means. It doesn't defy scientific law. It doesn't break scientific law. It has NOTHING to do with scientific law, they are separate concepts. Can I stress this enough?

Science is comprised of, primarily, observation. Nothing can be proven without direct observation of the act or occurance. In fact, according to chaos theory, regardless of how many times we observe something you cannot completely assume that it occured in the same way prior to direct observation.

Another common misconception is that goodworks alone will get you into heaven...or that Christianity believes this. In all honesty, I don't care how good or bad you are during your lifetime...and neither does God. I've heard that Jeffry Dahmer (sp?), the serial killer that ate his victims, used skin for lampshades, and kept body pieces in his fridge accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ just months before he was killed in prison. If true, even he is in heaven right now.

You see, mankind is NOT perfect, and therefore unworthy of heaven. According to the Bible, all we must do is accept Jesus Christ's forgiveness and believe he died and rose again in order to be assured our salvation. Odd and twisted? Yes. Simple and free? Absolutely. Impossible to accept? Only for those who are close-minded.

Bah, you wrote too much....

Do explain how following the Bible has in any way decreased the quality of my life? The Bible is not some huge rule book meant to limit what we do, but rather an instructional tool explaining how to live life to it's fullest and most rewarding. Everything God commands is meant to keep some harm from us or bring some good to us. When God created the world he said "It is good", and he meant it. Everything on earth is good. Sex, drugs, alcohol...it is all good. BUT ONLY WHEN USED/DONE IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER, AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, AND WITH THE APPROPRIATE PEOPLE!!! Only when done in excess and for the wrong reasons are drugs and alcohol bad. So, who, you ask is to define what is right and wrong? Well, in part those are answered in the Bible and can be summed up in the commandment "Treat your body like a Temple of God". Basically saying, be healthy in what you eat and ingest.

As for the whole "age of the earth" issue. That goes back to science being a study of observation. I remember one study based on the Mississippi River Delta in which they examined the sedimentary deposits to determine the age of the earth. Scientists immediately claimed that after examining the deposits it was found the earth was some billion or hundreds of millions of years old. Only a few days later it came out that only a couple sediments revealed any such thing and that the actual results showed a mean age of less than 10,000 years. Everyone ignoring the fact that the Mississippi would most likely NOT have been around for the entire earth's existence in anything close to its present form.

I have serious issues with the Catholic Church as a whole. For some very simple reasons, really...but in large part due to the fact that they do NOT take a literal interpretation of the Bible. They make far too many assumptions and label all those who go against them as heretics. It is run more as a beaurocracy than a church. The church leaders, at the time of Columbus decided the earth was flat,despite the fact that the Bible itself refers to the earth as being a sphere!!! What is more laughable is that anyone assumed the Catholic Church needed to acknowledge that the earth was anything but round...I can see it now: The Pope on his 5th flight around the world suddenly exclaims "Hey, we're going around in circles!!! And what's up with this big metal bird we're flying in!?!?!"

Oh, and it's impossible to disprove God's existence. He exists outside of time and our physical constraints and therefore cannot be disproven using them. As stated near the top of this...novel...

Let the debate begin...this could be quite fun and force me to procrastinate my studies yet again....

After Reading your quote, I felt like going to my ANTHROPOLOGY BOOK and Study it for a few hours LOL, Since that happens to be one of my classes and I keep putting it off more and more Uggggggggggggg, so sorry your PRIMITIVE talk made me think anthro. ehehe.

First off, I loved the fact that you approved (as in reference to the viewpoint of the church I assume?) of drugs and alcohol. YES!! That's good news that I was not aware of (I know for me personally that in moderation they are experimental and good, clean fun, however taboo to many in society).

Lizard King, I am glad you started this, so no worries. At least some of us (can't/won't speak for everyone) are getting some good, stimulating discussion out of this.

Ichthus, your viewpoints on the separation of the church and science is enlightening.

I wholly agree that the Bible is in fact a collection of teachings on leading an enriched and fulfilling life. The Psalms are the best example I can think of that present a well-rounded cross section of "life's little lessons."

While I agree that the teachings of the Bible and its words of wisdom are set forth with the best of intentions, I have to mention Lizard King's point here, that different religious beliefs have far and away been the cause of the most conflict and strife of anything in the world. The Bible may not have decreased the quality of your life in any way, shape, or form, but think of how many people lost their husbands, wives, siblings, parents, and children in the Crusades. Think about present day conflicts between the Jews and the Arabs, between the Serbs and the Croatians. Different religions have caused hatred, war, poverty, and mass destruction between people for thousands of years. I can't endorse too strongly the development of organized religion and the teachings of the Bible, the Torah, or any other religious scripture for these reasons.

I naturally agree with you as well about the Catholic church. Sad that it's close-minded representation of the Christian faith has scared away so many, like my brother and my father, both of whom will be atheists till the day they die. I feel that their lack of faith represents an across-the-board negative outlook of the world and in how they conduct their lives.

I am a fan of the ideals of humanity's imperfections, and forgiveness as the key to gaining entrance into heaven. I may not accept it hook, line and sinker word for word, but the idea is very appealing, and I can appreciate the importance of positive ideals like this in stark contrast to the destitute of agnostic thought.

I will have to ask you to restate your opinion on scientific dating of Mississippi River Delta deposits more clearly and what your point there is. I am unsure of the conclusion of your argument. I agree that perhaps not a single piece of scientific fact can be proven by deductive reasoning, only the inductive, and that this loophole prevents anything from being proven true. But are you relying on chaos theory as an escape hatch for all forms of radioactive decay dating, for example? Because the rate-of-decay consistency of carbon 14 half lives are about as accurate in pinpointing age of rock as the cesium atomic clock in Boulder, CO. Be warned that I am a geologist by education and I have an ass-whooping of geologic data to back up the claims of the earth's age being in the neighborhood of 4.65 billion years, including my senior thesis.

Anyway, that's a good return for now. We'll chat more later :)

As for JD and Lizard King's comments on religion being the reason for many a conflict, war and atrocities I have to comment.
I will say that I agree with the fact that religion has given mankind a reason to look down on others, hate and kill neighbours and loved ones. but please remember that is exactly it - religion. just take the case of northern ireland for example - they say it's catholic vs. protestant but do they really know what they are fighting over anymore?
anyways back to the religion thing. i want to get this straight, what i practice and what many Christians practice is not religion it's FAITH! Jesus Christ never preached hatred, prejudice or racism or religious overpowering. in fact he rebuked the so-called "religious" pharisees (hypocrites) of his day.
Jesus taught us to love and respect and care for everyone, including our enemies. Unfortuneatly human nature and sin gets in the way of all of us and we have distorted this all in the name of a word called "religion".

While I can't disagree with your post, I can't endorse your message either, sadly, much as I would like to. What's the old saying: "the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions." Herein lies my discrepancies with organized religion. It is not what was preached that was bad, but the end result of those preachings.

For a similar example, Marx's doctrine of communism is an idealistic and beautiful system on paper, but of course has been the downfall of a society on practice, a far cry from Marx's original paradigm. Again, it is not what was preached that was bad, but the end result of those preachings.

ichthus

you said I am just asking for trouble, well then I am waiting for it. No guy can corrupt me I will corrupt him before he ever gets close to doing it to me.

You haven't met me yet. lol

LizardKing
if that message was towards me then I would like you to try it *lol*

isn't this an interesting topic.


I believe in Jesus, God, heaven, etc.

I don't have too much time to read everyone's topic, so this may have been said. This seems probably annoying to you, but i am wondering. If you don't believe in heaven, then what do you believe?

Secondly, evolution makes no sense. It is mans excuse for creation, saying that the bigger the explosion and the more time it has, the more orderly it becomes. I'm sure you're all familiar w/ the 2 law of thermodynamics: the amount of useful energy tends to decrease. Entropy. Evolutionists believe in spontaneous generation also, that living things can arise from non-liviing thins-- not possible.

You may say: "Where did God come from then?"
I say: "He's always been."
You: "Impossible"
Me: "something can't come from nothing. Where has the goo come from?"
You: "errr... I have to ask some evolutionist to see what he says"


Evolutionist: "it'll take a lot of argueing, but basically what ever is not in the Bible"

This is somewhat exaggerated, but you catch my drift...

-----
Stop me if i'm off topic, which i probably am. feel free to ignore me. I am awful at arguements and usually just stay out.


there's my 1 cent

I like your modesty and Innocence Adam, I also believe but I don't go to church or anyhting like that.


I think that evolution is a good thing but it is aweapon also. Just look at bombs for example. The first bomb was some guy dropping a grenade out of a plane in WW1. Today their are Los Angeles and Sea Wolf class submarines that each carry 24 Tridnet and Polaris Nuclear missile. One submarine ha more destructive power than that of world War 2. I'm off whatever topic this is but

My philosophy is that you live, you do something to affect society and then you die. The second step isn't always there but. When you die I Believe that you will either go to heaven or hell. The thing that puzzles me is the line that divides sinners and the pure. Does that mean that Bella is the only person going to heaven? If you steal a useless item for short term fufillment does that mean your're off to hell?

The one thing is for sure, when we die we'll ll come to that fork in the road. That's my 1 cent.

It's not a matter of how much you sin, if that's what you're thinking. Bill Clinton could go to heaven if he acknowledged and applied that Jesus died for our sins, etc. I'm sure you heard all of that before.... haven't you?

That's like lying.

Evolution is arguable. To me, it makes perfect sense. I know that evolution does happen....Human's have witnessed it.

As for the creation of life....I wish I could give you a link, or a reference to the TV show I saw it on (on TLC) some scientists recreated a volcanic lake by adding certain molecules. Over time simple proteins naturally formed in them. Imagine that happening over millions and millions of years.

Evolution can't explain everything....it doesn't claim to. The Bible is just a book. Seriously. It was not written by God, so I don't completely understand the argument that it is infallible. It was written by men, so I don't mind doubting it.

Later.

Evolution almost dosen't make sense (No sense whatsoever) at the beigning, something out of nothing, rocks into fish. It is cool though.

I'm a practicing Baptist Christian, and I believe in salvation, the Bible, etc.

As far as creation vs. evolution, both have weak points.

Neither can prove where there origins (God, small dot of matter) came from. First, I'll add my thoughts about evolution. I will say what I have studied about it, if I'm outdated and you believe other things, please let me know for my own enlightenment.

The earth is not "billions of years" old.

Say I dig up a Casio watch in an old mine.
Me: "This watch has been here 1000 years"
You: "No, this mine is only 150 years old"
Me: "OK, then, the watch is 150 years old"
You: "That's impossible, they've only made that model for 12 years"
Me: "Alright, it's been here for 12 years."
You: "That's also impossible! The batteries in those only last 5 years and this one is still running."

Because of certain factors, it's been proven that the watch is no more than 5 years old. The same can be applied here...If only one factor proves that the earth has only been around for a few thousand years, then the whole idea of billions of years is effectilvely thrown out.

The Bible teaches that God made the universe from nothing about 6000 years ago. Then, about 4400 years ago, there was a great flood. This flood completely covered the earth, and lasted about a year. It was responsible for the sediment layers being deposited. As the water died down, it rushed off the mountains and into the large ocean basins. This rapid erosion through still soft, unprotected sediments formed the topography of the earth, including places such as the Grand Canyon. This shows how our earth could have been formed in such a short time.

There are several factors that limit the age of the earth.

First, you have our shrinking sun. It shinks at 1-5 feet a day...let's just say one. Saying the sun has a diameter of about 4,564,200,960 feet. As you go back in time, the sun grows about a foot a day. 2 billion years = 730 billion days. Therefore 2 billion years ago, the sun was 730 billiion feet bigger, or 734,564,200,960 feet in diameter. Thus it would occupy the orbit of Mercury (189,847,152,000 feet from the sun), Venus (354,774,816,000 feet from the sun, Earth (490,520,448,000 feet from the sun), and come very close to Mars. Allowing for all planets to exist, that leaves about 425 million years for evolution to occur. However, the earth would be tremendously hot for a long time.

The half inch layer of cosmic dust on the moon shows that it has not been accumulating this for billions of years.

The moon is receding a few inches per year. Billions of years ago, the moon would be so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents in the process.

The moon contains considerable quantities of U-236 and Th-230, both short-lived isotopes that would be non existent if the universe was billions of years old.

Saturn's rings are still unstable, showing that they are not billions of years old.

Ancient astronomers 2000 years ago recorded the star Sirius as a red star. Today it is a white dwarf star. Today's astronomy textbooks state that it takes 100000 years for a to "evolve" from a red star to a white dwarf, thus disproving that belief.

Earth's decaying magnetic field limits the age to far less than billions of years.

The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in 14,000,000 years, destroying old fossils.

Topsoil formation rates indicate a mere few thousand years of formation.

Niagara Falls' erosion rate (4 to 5 feet per year) indicates an age of less than 10000 years. Don't forget that Noah's flood could have eroded half of the seven-mile long Niagara river gorge in a few hours as the flood waters rushed through the soft sediment.

The rock encasing oil deposits could not withstand the pressure for more than a few thousand years.

The slowing spin of the earth limits it's age to less than billions of years.

The largest stalactite and flowstone formations could have easily been formed in about 4400 years.

The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be far saltier now.

The current population of earth (6 billion for a nice round number) could have been easily generated by eight people (flood survivors) in less than 4400 years.

The oldest living coral reef is less than 4200 years old.

The oldest living tree is about 4300 years old.



I could very easily and still may go on and on, but I'm tired now, and I've probably already taken a whole page.

These are just a few thoughts for you to dwell on...believe what you want, but please consider these.

And that's what bothers me about people who argue against evolution. It doesn't try to explain where the first life came from, but what happened once there was life.

People think that the bible and the theory of evolution contradict....they don't. I believe both. I don't take the bible as fact all the time, and I understand that evolution is a theory. It explains why there are over 1000 different species of fruit flies, why the peppered moth of England changed coloration during the industrial revolution, and why man doesn't have a pronounced forehead like the neanderthals.

Originally posted by Heep
The Bible teaches that God made the universe from nothing about 6000 years ago. Then, about 4400 years ago, there was a great flood.

Who exactly wrote the Bible? Did God? I always thought it was written by men....fallible men. Discrepancies are possible. If it was by God....How do we know?

Originally posted by Heep First, you have our shrinking sun. It shinks at 1-5 feet a day...let's just say one. Saying the sun has a diameter of about 4,564,200,960 feet. As you go back in time, the sun grows about a foot a day. 2 billion years = 730 billion days. Therefore 2 billion years ago, the sun was 730 billiion feet bigger, or 734,564,200,960 feet in diameter. Thus it would occupy the orbit of Mercury (189,847,152,000 feet from the sun), Venus (354,774,816,000 feet from the sun, Earth (490,520,448,000 feet from the sun), and come very close to Mars. Allowing for all planets to exist, that leaves about 425 million years for evolution to occur. However, the earth would be tremendously hot for a long time.[/B]

That assumes completely constant variables.

Originally posted by Heep The half inch layer of cosmic dust on the moon shows that it has not been accumulating this for billions of years.

The moon is receding a few inches per year. Billions of years ago, the moon would be so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents in the process.

The moon contains considerable quantities of U-236 and Th-230, both short-lived isotopes that would be non existent if the universe was billions of years old.[/B]
I believe the theory that the moon was formed from the Earth. It was broken off by a huge meteor. This would account for all of those.
Originally posted by Heep
Ancient astronomers 2000 years ago recorded the star Sirius as a red star. Today it is a white dwarf star. Today's astronomy textbooks state that it takes 100000 years for a to "evolve" from a red star to a white dwarf, thus disproving that belief.[/B]

3.....2......1......WHITE! Yay! It's white now. The value there is a generalization. Certain factors could increase or decrease this amount of time. Decrease it by that much? I don't know. But of course, the telescope hadn't been invented 2000 years ago, so how could they have known for sure?

Originally posted by Heep The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in 14,000,000 years, destroying old fossils.

Niagara Falls' erosion rate (4 to 5 feet per year) indicates an age of less than 10000 years. Don't forget that Noah's flood could have eroded half of the seven-mile long Niagara river gorge in a few hours as the flood waters rushed through the soft sediment.

The rock encasing oil deposits could not withstand the pressure for more than a few thousand years.

The slowing spin of the earth limits it's age to less than billions of years.

The largest stalactite and flowstone formations could have easily been formed in about 4400 years.

The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be far saltier now.[/B]

Tectonic plates, and variation in these forces could account for all of these. Who says that Niagara falls has always taken it's current path? Who says the formation of stalactites was always at a constant rate and always with a source?

The bible is a very good explanation of events and so is evolution, I also agree with both. There are conflicting matters though, nothing is perfect.

I'm talking about prehistoric life-forms. Hences the name pre-historic, meaning "before history". If you say according to the bible, that the earht could have only been around for 6600 years, how do you explain them. Sciencetists have estimated dinosaurs to be in the rabge of 45 to 250+ million years ago. That means that it had to be around for at least that long.

Also about the sun, just because it is shrinking toady dosen't mean it was growing thousands of years ago. Things do change, like you said, stars transform. Millions of years ago the sun may have been at a different stage causing it to remain the same size for millions of years. It may have only changed to a new state a couple of thousand years ago. Like you though, there are many conflicting matters.

Originally posted by Porsche
Sciencetists have estimated dinosaurs to be in the rabge of 45 to 250+ million years ago. That means that it had to be around for at least that long.

"Oh, but Porsche, how can you say that? You can't believe those scientists...after all, some of the greatest minds of the 17th century thought the sun revolved around the earth!" someone might say.

My reply woult be this...How can you distrust science in this case, yet use in explaining the sun, and other stuff.

What's the right answer? I guess we'll never know.....

Well, rather than go back and check what I said in the past, I'll just continue with whatever. First, let me say that I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back into this, i had midterms all last week and am now on Spring Break...as you can imagine posting here isn't my biggest priority... :)

Now, someone had mentioned my statements on drugs, sounding like they assumed I was saying that drugs and alcohol are perfectly fine. They're not. All things God created are good, but they are meant for a certain time, place and use. Sex is great -- when in marriage. Drugs are great -- when usedto cure. Alcohol is fine -- when used for pain or thirst. It is only when abused and misused that any of these things become wrong. "There is a time for everything.", the Bible says.

Now, for the most recent issues... I'm trying to get in touch with a guy that explained many of the faults with Carbon Dating, but suffice it to say that it is a far cry from being perfect...or even a significantly accurate. Dinosaurs over 250 million years old? Maybe, but far from being the fact you seem to take it as.

I find it more than a little amusing that you try to disprove many of the "anti-evolutuion/Big-bang theory" statements by saying that trends are variable and that many of the observed phenomena may have changed prior to observance (though you said so in fewer words). So then, please explain to me the proof for evolution and where it is found? Observations, correct? In fact, observations of what is happening today, not what happened millions or even billions of years ago. In fact, the problems with Scientific theories of the origins is that when we apply the patterns they are based on to the universe as a whole we run into unexplainable problems that cannot be answered without contradictory theories that would, when applied to the rest of the patterns, deem them impossible as well.

Take, for instance, some very basic atomic theory. All know that Opposites attract. This is supposed to explain why protons are attracted to electrons. Forgive me if i reverse the two here, but you should get the picture. I believe that electrons make up the core of an atom and protons circle around said core. Given that like charges repel each other, the protons orbit at equal disances from each other. What science can NOT explain is why the electrons in the core do not repel each other, but rather, form a tight bond.

When discussing Evolution...I will say that as a Christian I firmly believe in it. In fact, I would say the Bible proves evolution to be true. Ok, so first I shocked everyone with saying that drugs were good...now I'll amend this one too.

There is a significant difference between Micro-evolution and Macro-evolution. The former explains why the moth changed colors, why we have differentiation within species and such. The Latter is the completely unproven theory that one species could evolve into another. Bacteria to fish to frogs to lizards to dinos to mammals.

Science is based on observation. Therefore, theories of universal origins are nothing more than cosmic guesses. In fact, theories of anything not directly observed are nothing more than guesses based on forensic evidence.

Why do I think the Bible supports evolution? Quite simply the story of the Flood. If Noah had to wait on only 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 flies, 2 pigs, 2 monkeys, etc. It would be quite simple. After the flood species would slowly evolve within their own kind to produce the many different dogs, cats, pigs, and monkey's we see today.

well, enough for now, i'm tired. :o

Yes, you got it backwards with the atomic theory there....electrons orbit, and they don't orbit all at the same distance. There are energy shells that they fill. It can be somewhat complicated, but basically lighter (smaller atomic number) elements such as Hydrogen have electrons closer to the nucleus, whereas heavier (higher atomic number) elements fill many shells (Gold, Einsteinium....). I've heard theories that explain the cohesion of a nucleus, but unfortunately I don't remember any....I'll dig into it deeper though.


Originally posted by my main man, Ichthus
So then, please explain to me the proof for evolution and where it is found?
Well, the guiding force that can explain evolution is logic and mathematics.
Simple example....
There is an animal. Now, at one locus, the animal could either have a "A" gene, or a "a" gene. If the animal has "A", it survives all of the time....but an "a" gene diminishes the fitness of the animal to only survive to reproduce 90% (.9) of the time. If the two different types were equally frequent (lets say 100 of each), after one generation (selection followed by mating), there would be 100 "A"s and 100*.9 or 90 "a"s. This process goes on and on....
There's plenty more to that (such as mutation, selection, Hardy Weinberg Equilibrium) but that's a simple formula that can be used to model changes in allele frequencies. How does that account for speciation? Well, suppose a new, advantageous mutation arises. Because it has a higher fitness (being advantageous and all) it will eventually raise it's frequency (such as the A raised it's frequency from .5 to 100/190, or .526).

Now, none of this explains where the first instance of life came from. Nothing does conclusively. If you believe the bible, it says god created it. However, I believe science regarding carbon dating and the like.

I, like Ichthus, am a practicing Christian. However, I don't always believe the bible. I know there must be some greater force than man, and I attribute it to God. However, the book of God was written by mortal, fallible men, just like you and I, so I have trouble taking it for complete, concrete fact.

I suppose I consider myself somewhat of a deist...the watchmaker theory. God created the earth, and then let it take it's own course...such as a watchmaker creates a watch, but then leaves it to keep time on it's own.

Oh man, don't get me started on the flaws of the flood story...

I see heaven a little differently than the common conception of it. Many think as soon as you go to heaven it's just one big party...everyone having fun and partying. Well, that's not how I see it. Heaven could be boring as anything as far as I'm concerned. The point is that it's salvation from earthly life. It doesn't run on time or conventional thoughts.

Heaven isn't about going somewhere fun, it's about meeting your maker and becoming a greater being. People fear hell...rightfully so...and want to go to heaven because it seems fun.

I agree with enzo (for once :)) that the Bible was written by falliable men. However, their writings were inspired and guided by God. I have yet to see one thing that contradicts another in the Bible without taking a passage out of context.

God says in the Bible that He is the Word. God is perfect and cannot lie, therefore the whole Bible must be true.

2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." These writers were inspired by God.
You also must consider that these 44 (I believe...) writers of the Bible lived in different countries, lived at vastly different times, and wrote in three separate languages. Yet every one has a unified view of God and what he says. Not a single one of these writers contradict another. So God's inspiration becomes quite clear. As mentioned earlier, God is perfect, and he would not wrongly inspire or "write" something that is false.

So, if you believe one part of the Bible, you must believe that the rest is also true. Geneologists have followed the geneology recorded in the Bible and come up with a 6000 year figure since the start of man. Man also started 6 literal days after the universe and time were created.

I agree with Isthcus about micro and macro evolution. Micro evolution most definately exists. Micro evolution can be the result of constant conditions on a person or animal. For example, black people basically exist because of the area most originally lived in, in the sun (please do not see this as racist, I mean nothing of the sort), while white people may have been more sheltered. Adaptation. Say you live in a rocky area and shoes do not exist there. Eventually, you will likely get tough feet. So will the person you will eventually marry, and have a child with. Eventually, the whole race of people from that area are going to have tough feet. Adaptation leads to micro evolution. Macro evolution, however, trys to say that dolphins eventually adapted or changed into frogs (just an example, you probly don't believe it this way), or that monkeys changed into humans. These are entirely different species, no matter how similar or different. Also, why are there still dolphins and monkeys, then?

Think about this. Most people agree that UNIVERSE = ALL MATTER. Now. "Uni" means one. "Verse" is words, or a phrase (free verse, blank verse). Therefore UNIVERSE (one word or phrase, God's words to create) = ALL MATTER.

Originally posted by enzo@af
And that's what bothers me about people who argue against evolution. It doesn't try to explain where the first life came from, but what happened once there was life.

The first life was created by God. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by Heep


The first life was created by God. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I don't disbelieve that, but I don't believe that it occurred 6000 years ago. Could be, but based on what I've seen, I've deduced that evidence suggest alternately.

I consider myself a christian (mostly as of recent, although I've always been spiritual), but I still don't take everything in the bible for fact. Someone, anyone, can claim that God has spoken to them. So, anyone could write something "with the inspiration of God". Thus, you would (by your apparant logic) have to believe everybody in history who has written anything "that God inspired them to".

The fact that there is little to no contradiction from the many writers of the bible means nothing to me. The stories were surely passed on and spread around, so I'm sure anyone writing already knew what was going on. Whoever finally compiled the stories surely wouldn't publish contradictions....that's how I'd explain it.

I hate to do this, but I see the bible similar to the Star Wars...many stories, often written by various writers. Some contradictions do exist, but that's okay. Think about it though....each writer already knows the original story by Lucas, so when they write it they keep discrepencies out (although some still squeak through). Also, common, Anakin has no father! Similar to anyone you know?

I question my faith constantly. Personally, I see the person struggling with developing there beliefs and faith as far more devoted than the sheep that I often see at church...there only because they know nothing else. I didn't go to church until the middle of high school, and I'm glad. The fact that I developed faith through my own accord means something to me

Oh, another fun thing about evolution.....the fact that black people have a much higher frequency of sickle cell anemia....

Why would this be? It would make sense from my previous example that such a disease would decrease the carriers' fitness, and thus eventually decrease the allele frequency. However, having such an allele (only one, having a good one forming the other part of the pair...this is called a "Heterozygote" i.e. "Aa") makes you far more resistant to Malaria. Thus, the fact that malaria was always a problem in sub-saharan Africa increased the frequency of this "harmful" disease!

But, that's just micro-evolution again. Macro evolution takes far longer because speciation often only results in small differences, barely enough to not allow breeding...such speciation must happen again, and again, and microevolution must also be happening. However, because it's a reasonable, logical, step-by-step process, it's definitely feasible. Population bottlenecks and founders effects (such as is the case with the Amish) could also account for such differences. Dolphins may still exist because there has been no need to adapt.

The fact that our carbon dating of many many fossils matches so well with the gradual changes we see in so many animals and their ancestors seems far too obvious to discredit.

Finally, why is it impossible that God, who created such wonderfully perfect things such as math, reason, and life, could also create such a perfect, logical process such as Evolution? I think it's simply a testament to the omniscience He possesses.

Enzo,

I very much admire your ability to reason on your own. For the first three quarters of my life, I was one of those "sheep." I was taken to church every Sunday, and I was basically brainwashed into believing it all. It wasn't until my "rebellion" in junior high that I started to study and look into things like the existence of God, the authenticity of the Bible, and Creation myself. I seriously considered the other viewpoint, but I still came up with what I was "brainwashed" into believing earlier in my life.

I encourage you to check out www.drdino.com This page is the result of a man who has studied creation and evolution his whole life. Since 1990 he offered $10000 to the person who could prove him wrong, that has recently increased to $250000. Read the articles on his site with an open mind, that's what I did in junior high. Whichever theory you end up believing, at least you will be extensively educated in both, and realize the strong and weak points of both viewpoints.

As for the authenticity of the Bible, I'll get back to you when I finish reading this booklet my pastor gave me regarding that matter.

I must say that I strongly question the authenticity of a LARGE portion of the bible. As already stated these are interpretations of what was said and what took place. Considering that the groups of scholars, who formed the bible long ago, where appropriated and selected from a church. This gives the church unprecedented control over what was published. As Enzo already stated the Bible was based on constant variables. Things change. Characters in the bible change their opinions. The bible states that Paul said that women should cover their heads in public and should be silent about the church. It also states that later in life Paul qualms some of the things that he said in the past.

On a more personal note, I feel really uneducated about the bible. I know some facts. The fact that I have never sat down and read the world’s best selling book is somewhat astonishing and poignant.


PEACE...

So, how can we account for something like diamonds, which take millions of years to form? You use science to prove the age of the earth, yet science also discredits that. So, let us forget science and use logic. Perhaps, Akham's razor? Anyone?

I believe in a force, call it whatever you want, that is outside of our imagination (different dimension). True is the bible, tora or koran etc... didn't said anything about science but about some things they found out or shouuld be followed to have it easier in life e.g. some religions say you shouldn't eat pork this statement obviously was created while the pork plague, so it was actually a good idea to implement it into those books.
Maybe some of you have seen the movie Stigmata. In the end there is a very good point in which I totaly agree GOD(or simply that force) is within us and all around us and not the creation of the church. I realy think we don't need the Vatican and stuff. If one wants to believe he can do it without a church or a specified religion. I'm jewish but it's only a shape I put my believe in to have it easier to explain to someone!

Paul was Saul... of course he regretted what he said when he used to persecute Christians! Read about Paul/Saul.

I don't have time to go in depth about stuff, my Mom needs to use it... ttyl...

Heep, plz continue w/ that list! i would like to use some in when it comes time to High school papers...

First off, I'd like to vent my displeasure with my co-moderator for this forum, Lizard King, whom were it not for starting this topic, I would be home chilling right now instead of being here in my office typing out a response to this thread, since I simply cannot let what has been stated go unanswered. LK, feel free to give yourself a few more good whacks in the face, or a full-on self-inflicted beating if you feel up to the task, for the suffering you are now causing me ;)

As is, I have a couple pages put together already, but I won't submit it half-assed. I will submit it in sections to make it more palatable as I complete it. My arguments need more work to thoroughly and completely address the issues brought up the the 6,000-year supporters here. Please stay tuned...

-JD

Oh, you know we will

I'm posting these as per Adam's request, they are zipped, but Word (or Wordpad) format for everyone to read. They are transcripts of a very good speaker that addresses many if not all of the problems of the evolutionary story. You don't have to read them, but if you don't, you are really just closing your mind. Reading them also does not guarantee your conversion from evolution, so if you are convinced you want to believe evolution for the rest of your life, then reading these will do you no harm, just further educate you.

This is parts 1a and 1b: They deal with the Age of the Universe, which is apparently quite relevant, since that is what we're mostly talking about now. I will post the other parts if anybody requests me to.

1a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%201a%20Word.zip
1b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%201b%20Word.zip

Post everything you've got. I want to leave no stone unturned in my rebuttal.

I'm looking forward to this. *rubs hands together* :alien:

This topic wasn't planned to turn out this way, I've seen before how creation/evolution topics can get very busy.

OK, then...

Part 2: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%202%20Word.zip
Part 3a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%203a%20Word.zip
Part 3b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%203b%20Word.zip
Part 4a: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%204a%20Word.zip
Part 4b: http://www.drdino.com/SeminarOnline/Text/Part%204b%20Word.zip

Transcripts for parts 5-7 are apparently not yet available, but you can go here to view Real Video slideshows for those (or any) parts.

BTW, when you finish with your rebuttal, you should e-mail to this guy that came up with all this at [email protected]