So how valuable is 'constructive criticism'?

EDIT: Yes, I meant 'constructive' in the title

So not surprisingly, the topic has come up again of what should and shouldn't be said in build and completed threads. Since it came up last time (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=625222), I've been wondering just how valuable constructive criticism is in a forum like this.

Since I joined this forum a few years ago, my skills as a car modeller have improved dramatically- I would say in a very large part because of my paticipation here. A big part of my improvement is of course due to the vast amount of information availible here, and getting to see other people's ideas and techniques in use. There's constant inspiration here- seeing other peoples work just makes me want to build, to try different things, and to recreate great stuff I've seen for myself. Of course I've been building more as a result of being active here, and the best way to learn to build is to build. Yet I've recieved very little constructive criticism here. Maybe a two or three times someone has pointed something out to me and it has been useful- but in general it really hasn't happened, and as a result it's not been a method by which I've improved.

So I'm curious to hear other views on it. Has constructive criticism been useful to you? Have you even received any? Has it been important tool to increase your skills?

Well,i'm a newb here,so everything that someone says to me it's useful,since my skills aren't good. I don't know if it's that what you were looking for to hear,but you don't receive criticism, because it's VERY hard to see one flaw in your models. As for example,your F50,I was so amazed when I saw it,the details and all,that I couldn't see the mistakes. That's the price of becoming a great modeler! :p :rofl: :iceslolan

With the exception of the last criticism which I received which was totally misguided, I have always received criticism of a positive nature.

The only criticism you could receive, Mpwr is that your models make most of us look like brick layers. I would agree your builds are basically flawless. For me, since I have joined AF my skills have improved ten-fold (for instance, in pre-AF days, orange peel was an acceptable part of painting and stance was irrelevant as long as at least 3 wheels touched the ground) and my participation in the hobby has gone from maybe a month of modelling a year to almost a full time affair. But it all came from just interacting and sharing with everyone that shares my joy of modelling. All my feedback and critiques were of a very postive nature and when people take note of what you do, you just want to get better and push harder.

I find with any of my builds I just get a few comments, no tips and constructive criticism. Mostly nice work, good paint etc.....I wish i would hear more about my build, so I can learn more and see if my building skills are going in the right direction!

For a person who is struggling with a concept or technique, sure, constructive criticism is great. You, MPWR, didn't seem have a problem grasping all of the new stuff, and so it didn't really appear necessary.

I suppose it depends on the type of person as well. If you're full of confidence in yourself, I doubt it's necessary for someone else to tell you what you can do better. You probably already know.

For me it really depends on how it is phrased. I like to hear different ideas, or how I can improve something. What I hate is when people completely disregard what I may have accomplished and only point out the bad. I think that goes for a lot of people here. If you only point out the bad then the builder is going to get discouraged.

Constructive criticism is often misguided too. People just point out the bad and dont offer how to fix it. Thats not helping anyone, thats just being demeaning and berating the builder with their flaws.

I love the kind remarks, who doesnt? However, I also like to see where I can improve, but dont disregard what I have done and just rip me apart. I think thats what it boils down to. If you want to criticize, please propose a solution instead of just pointing out the problem; that way you're helping not just belittling.

How valuable is a forum where you can't discuss anything in a more than tepid and lackluster manner?

I can't for the life of me see why the "Potshots at Turkeys (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=655722)" thread was locked :screwy:

Oh well, back to posting "awsome", "suuuuuuper" and "that rocks, dude!" I suppose.....but NEVER will I post "that's sick!" (oh crap! I left the apostrophe in the right place! :uhoh:)

I honestly feel, and I say this at risk of falling into the closed-thread trap like Oli has, that a few people here need a lot more crticism than they're getting. I've also decided that the wises course of action, as someone who likes to help fellow modelers (and not that I'm even at the level where I really have any right to, honestly), is to just keep my mouth shut unless the builder shows promise or seems to be able to maturely accept the criticisms.

I personally don't think any sort of "criticism" is constructive in model building. To me, my building is an expression of how I interpret a subject and my level of skill at that particular time. I use reference pics etc and build what I see. This may be different to what someone else sees and how they build based on their skills etc. Sure, give your comments, ideas, knowledge and experience etc, but leave the criticism to those who take the whole modelling thing way too seriously!

as a newbie who's finishing his fourth build, i've yet to post a WIP or completed project because i don't yet feel my skills are up to a level that i feel is within the same ballpark as those builders i admire.

that said, when i finally do post a WIP, i will appreciate constructive criticism and/or suggestions for improving my skills. what i WILL NOT appreciate is a forum where people are in ANY way constrained in their ability to say whatever they like, however they like.

if you chose to be helpful and say, "the paint looks a little flat. you might want to try...", hey, great - i'll thank you for the tip.

if, on the other hand, you want to say, "yo - your skills suck more than a $20 crackwhore, and that model looks like it was painted by stevie wonder on a bad acid trip," then I'll laugh at you, consider you an asshole and pretty much ignore everything you say until your dying day.

i would like to think that everyone else here is smart enough and mature enough to do the same thing, thereby freeing us all from the tyranny of worrying we might offend someone or, worse yet, create an environment where even my crappiest build garners the same praise as, say, Robrex's latest stunner. that doesn't serve anyone, and renders this place little more than a pic post.

if someone wants to be an asshole, let him (or her) be an asshole. he'll soon be ignored by all, and we'll all have a good laugh at his (or her) expense. and i will quote voltaire in saying, "i may not agree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it."

just my two cents.

I personally don't think any sort of "criticism" is constructive in model building. To me, my building is an expression of how I interpret a subject and my level of skill at that particular time. I use reference pics etc and build what I see. This may be different to what someone else sees and how they build based on their skills etc. Sure, give your comments, ideas, knowledge and experience etc, but leave the criticism to those who take the whole modelling thing way too seriously!

This is something I totally disagree with. If you don't want criticism, you should either build a perfect model or, when you post your work, say you expect to hear only praise in the comments. There just isn't any other way to develop your skills and grow as a modeller than letting others post their honest opinion, share their tips/experience with you and actually listening to what they say. Otherwise your "skill level at that particular time" will remain constant for longer than needed.

and, of course, there's the argument that you should build only to please yourself, which is pretty much what dolittle just said. word ta dat.

Color choices, wheel choices, style choices; those are all up to the builder and in my opinion, are hard to give tips on, unless the builder is asking (ie "Should I paint it purple with orange polka dots?" Probably not).

However, when posting on a forum such as this, the builder is leaving himself open to suggestions to make a model more accurate (ie "Spraying a little closer to the model, as well as some polishing, can cure that orange peel," "On a big block Chevy, the distributor wired as such, not as you've built it"). That's part of the learning experience. I doubt there are many modelers that are happy with where they are in the modeling skill spectrum, I'd expect a pretty much universal desire to do better next time. Even builders like ScaleMaster undoubtedly have areas that they look at and think, "Gee, next time I'll have to try it this other way." If not, I fear that for most of us, the fun of the hobby would be fleeting.

To me, that is the only reason to post projects here. There is of course, model building community, the transfer of ideas, and the ability just to bullshit about building. But as far as posting one's work? That's expressly to 1. show what one can do, and how (for other's benefit), and to 2. expose one's work to the light of day so that others who have had the same problems or can see things that've been missed can share their experience and knowledge (for the builder's benefit).

I would love some constructive criticism. I've only been back in the hobby for about 9 months, after dropping it for about 4 or 5 years. I can definately see a large improvement from the first car i built since starting again to the most recent one. I know i can still improve further though.
You guys have brought to my attention stuff that i never knew existed, like microsol/microset, krystal klear and photetch. I started primering and sanding a few months ago and they have improved my paintjobs. Theres lots of stuff i still can learn, and would love for someone to see my build, say "no you're doing it the wrong way, this is the right way to do it".
As long as someone gives you an answer to your problem i.e this is what you're doing wrong and here is how you fix it then i think its very important part of the forum.

I want to get constructive criticism but as you say MPWR it is pretty rare. I don't think I've learned so much from that as from asking questions in other peoples threads which is the other positive side of the forum idea and another base to evolve from.

But, back to the question, I would love more constructive criticism but I haven't gotten a large amount of it when looking back at my own in progress/completed threads.

/Joel

Andy, Joel - let's not be disingenuous here!

There is constructive criticism and the there is constructive criticism and you guys know it ;)
You and several others here don't recieve much because - let's be honest - you represent skill levels that many others aspire to.

Constructive criticism IMO is something that should COME from guys like you (and I guess myself to some degree) and be GIVEN to less experienced people who would benefit from it (based on the universal assumption that everyone wishes their next build to be "better" than the previous one).

I am gradually reaching the conclusion that the problem is not in the act itself but in the terminology.
Maybe "constructive criticism" is not an adequate term? I think the word "criticism" is sometimes muddying the waters.
Maybe we should just call it "Feedback For the Future (improvement)" or FFF for short?

My basic tenet is this:
It's OK to say you see something on someone's work that you believe could be/have been done better.
Say it in a way that is not offensive to the builder.
If you have a suggestion for a better solution that's good but it is also OK to just say "your ..... look(s) a bit ..... to me"
The recipient is obliged to:
a) assume that the comment was probably meant in good faith (English is not 1st language for most/many people here);
b) not take it as a personal attack;
c) think about what was said.

He can agree/disagree at his leisure.

How valuable is a forum where you can't discuss anything in a more than tepid and lackluster manner?

I can't for the life of me see why the "Potshots at Turkeys (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=655722)" thread was locked :screwy:



I wanted quickly ask why this was locked, it was an open discussion and was getting somewhere? would the mod in charge feel free to comment, via pm is also good.

But let's adress the question asked in this thread.
It seems quite ridiculous to say no. How can constructive criticism be bad?
Constructive criticism is one of the main motivators to do better. Atleast it works for me.

From the valuable comments I have read in the other thread (that offcourse was too interesting to be left open), some interesting things remained.

I especially like the fact that we have to be able to say what we mean, in criticism, while giving a solution. This all in a regular manner, not trying to be offensive.
But on the other side, we are not pre-schoolers, we can take some criticism (I hope), and we should beware not to fall in the neverending depths of political correctness or sound like politicians while criticising a build.

oli

The only sense I see in a thread like this (after all the previous on the same topic) is to pipe up for Oli's thread locking. Not becouse Oli but becouse those was an interesting topic to discuss.

Andy: really I mean you a friend, but seeing what you write after your last posts on deltableh stuff make me ROFL, really. And once a time you're skilled, don't worry :D dammn skilled :D :D and we all love you, really.

We have this topic hot 2 times/years: Christmas and Easter holidays: have we the needs to waste other of our precious time?

We'll have a lot of cool things to discuss.

Let me take this chance to give you all my best Christmas wishes, friends: I really found a lot of true friends on AF: thanks.

I personally don't think any sort of "criticism" is constructive in model building. To me, my building is an expression of how I interpret a subject and my level of skill at that particular time. I use reference pics etc and build what I see. This may be different to what someone else sees and how they build based on their skills etc. Sure, give your comments, ideas, knowledge and experience etc, but leave the criticism to those who take the whole modelling thing way too seriously!

So I must take modeling way too seriously because I want to improve? Thats a misconception. Its a hobby for me as it is for most people here. Most people want to continually get better at anything they try, beit playing cards or a career.

I think a lot of people are misinterpreting the word criticism as Stevenski said. We're merely critiquing the build. Criticize would be like ripping it apart, critiquing on the other hand is pointing out what could be changed to make it better and how to make it better. That last part is what really bugs me.

How can criticism be constructive when you dont try to help the person? I see comments like, "You have a lot of orange peel, you should fix that" all the time. Well how does the builder know how to fix it. Granted this site is a huge source of information to search through but you're doing the builder a better favor, as well as the community, if you say "You have a lot of orange peel, have you tried using rubbing compounds to polish it out? If you polish it up your model will really pop". See how much better that is to hear?

Thats why I think people get so up in arms about constructive criticism. They only here the negative and not how to fix it.

I like constructive criticism. I run my ideas and stuff by Mark, Will, and many other modelers on and off this board. If I werent able to discuss my ideas with them and hear what they have to say I'd never get anywhere. I'd be running in circles.

I mean, I look at my work on my street rod over the past 3 years. I cant believe how much it has improved. Over the past 3 years I've gotten harsh criticism, and I've had constructive criticism. All of it helped me out. Even if the harsh criticism hurt a little when I heard it, over time I healed and turned into a better builder.

Critique vs. criticism are entirely different animals. It's sometimes hard here to comment/critique as you don't always know if the builder is open to it, or offended. If they ask for input, then a well-thought critique with solutions to solve problems is the best input to give. There's an art to critique, and as Oli found out, his reaction wasn't the most "artistic", but it was honest and he did give some positive vibes.

I also think that the "looks great/awesome/sick" comments towards some really...uh, not so "great/awesome/sick" models is a bit disingenuous. While it's good to get feedback, it's a bit tough to dole out honest critique to people who are just learning the ropes. They honestly need encouragement, but even a friendly critique might take the wind out of their sails. It's so difficult that I tend to not comment on those builds. Partially because it could take a lot of time just to write out something that might (or might not) be useful. Or written more eloquently somewhere else, like the FAQ's or Scalewiki.

I find it funny when people point out obvious flaws in my models, as I generally know all about every flaw, and many more, than most people can see, and for whatever reason have chosen to leave it be. Doesn't bother me in the least, and sometimes they point out something that I missed during photography. My biggest "gripe", if you can call it that, is people not reading the descriptions, and asking questions/making critiques on items that were clearly spelled out, but glossed over in favor of just looking at the pictures and then commenting.

We have a pretty good balance here, and the discussions have all been pretty good. Sorry that Oli's thread got locked, it seemed to be quite civil, as do many discussions that aren't always based in the friendliest of circumstances.

So how valuable is 'constructive criticism'?

Let me offer my views to this discussion here...

I won't say I am an experienced builder at all. I have just started to build model cars for a year and a half. However, I do offer some suggestions to builders who I believe needs help in doing certain things better or point out areas of improvements that sometimes the builders won't realize themselves.

Is this valuable to the builder? I think most of the time they are valuable...

However, it also depends on how the comment was made.

If the comment offers suggestions to improvement, I think most people will be able to take it and benefit from it. But if the comment offers no value and it is only made to make fun of the builder, most people will get offended.

On the other hand, I do think a modeller should still improve and strive to be better even without any constuctive criticism. Why do I say that?

Take me as an example. The more I look at the inspiring builds in this forum, the more I want to be better. This is what I believe should happen to all builders too.

You don't really need other people to tell you that your build needs improvement. Just by looking at other people's builds, you should be able to judge whether yours is on par or not and what areas of improvement you need.

I think I am one of the few supporters of the "this is awesome" type of response in replying to threads. I believe they do have their value. But the value of those are just not for motivating someone to be better...

We should not use a "Scale" to measure the attention and appreciation someone should receive. If someone is not as good as the most experienced builders, it does not mean that they cannot receive a "pat on the back".

Just like when you tell a kid his drawing is nice when you know deep down that the drawing is no Piccaso...

I think the new builders need their share of appreciation too...Just because something is bad in your standard, it doesn't mean you should trash it.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Winston

I for one would love some criticism , it doe's make you want to try that little bit more to improve on the models .
I made a couple of little mistakes in one of my threads just to see what or if anyone would point them out but alas :disappoin nobody would or didn't pick up on them .
Mind you I have been to blame myself if someone starting out (anything under 5 models ) I won't make a point of pointing out mistakes or them like in case I put them of models for good :nono: .
Unlike in another forum where someone has been banned for the comment that they put:nono:
Shayne

I think I am one of the few supporters of the "this is awesome" type of response in replying to threads. I believe they do have their value. But the value of those are just not for motivating someone to be better...


Winston


That response is fine if it's warranted.
I think most of the people here (myself included in the locked thread) were speaking of those threads where the build is far from "awesome" but gets the reply anyway. There are definitely builders here that deserve the "that is awesome" reply more often than not, but there are those that get that reply when the build is anything but.
I'm far from an expert builder and I rarely get the chance to actually work on anything, but if I do post something and someone sees something that needs improvement I'd like to hear about it and what techniques could be used to implement that improvement. Preferably in a civil manner, but I'm a big boy and can handle it if it's not... as long as there is some sort of take away. Help me be better.

Hello all,

On my opinion this question and this thread are very interesting - thank you MPWR to ask the question - because it sets all the basement to why we all come here and share what is firstly and mostly something private, modelling, we all practive alone with our personal ideas and aims, as a private affair.

So please let me give my opinions about the subject.

- first, I would like to stop a few seconds on criticism itself. What is that beast ?
When I open most of the threads here and there on AF, I mostly find some very nice words, even exceptional like the really most valuables persons in the world don't get so often. I even post some myself...
But why ? I don't see that as a criticism, it's only a way of saying or appreciation on something, and if we let a feedback it's better for sure to leave a kind one, who would waste its time to post some bad words ? with which aim ?
But is it always sincere ? or is it just a consensual way of giving feedback ?
mine are always sincere, that's why I don't really post some very often, I only post something I really expect to express my surprise, my admiration, my approval etc.
But I won't call it criticism.
they are the award of our work on a model, a kind of approvement.
But I would call criticism something that don't refer to the enjoyement of a result but most to the skills, the process, something like that.

- so criticsm it is, but why should we have criticism ?
because we come not to get only consensual and kind comments always pleased but some advices to improve our modelling, too !
It's always cool to see other people saying such big compliments, but it won't make you improve your skills.
that's my opinion and that's what I am looking for here.

- so Is constructive critiscism valuable ?
of course it is !
I've learn something new everyday since the day I suscribed here !
I remember that my first post was a criticism of a very nice model and that wasn't very kind for the builder (as most criticism...) but it was right. The builder took it very gently, knowing that fact and probably sharing the same way of thinking the modelling share.
that was probably a constructive criticsm, even if happened after the build (discovered too late), and for sure it was... for me ! I have to take care of my own critics in my own build !
If the builder isn't here only to be applaused and get some "wonderfull, awesome etc" comments, also criticism inevitably is valuable.
And I think this is the key point of the question:
Constructive criticism is inevitably valuable if it is made to someone that is aware to receive it by someone that sincerely want to give something with it.
personaly I would always please kind words and comments, they are what we are looking too and probably need to see we are on the right way, but they won't never give so much than real criticism which will make us become better and better.

by the way this is what I am really feeling here.
I don't know if I have a special gift for modelling, I've always tought I wasn't too bad, and people on modelling meetings appreciate my work, but I didn't suscribe here to get applause, maybe only recognition, but I have always thought I would meet better modeller than I (maybe the best shall I say now) and become myself better and better.
and that's happening each day !

So anyway thank you all for sharing your builds, your skills, your criticism (which I read, too and which may help me, too) and don't stop criticism about my builds, and finally please accept mines for only what they are.

Thanks for reading

Phil

Gotta have it, even if its negative. Its what made me and it might be my down fall. Without criticism i would still be brush painting bodies!!

Would like to share my simple but honest thougths:

This is a public forum, open to any kind of personalities, some kind, some not, each and every one with a right to make comments of any type.
If someone is kind enough to reply in a thread of mine, I'm greatful, even if his comments are not kind... why? Because I'm here not to be awarded as a great modeler, not to give a bust to my self-estime. I'm here to learn and hope someone will learn from me in any level. If I enter here as a newbie I have to admit that there are some people that are way better than me, if some of them are to give me a hard time I would check his builds, see if he/she has more skills than me and accept the punch... HEY! I would even ask him/her to take me as his Padawan since he has showed some interest for my skills. If the man/girl is any good or the same as me... well... what are you goonna do? Run to mamma and tell her your feelings have been hurt?
Well I think is better to have good or bad comments/critics than to be ignored. How are you supossed to learn. How many times have you seen threads with 200 views and 5 comments??? So, FREEDOM OF REPLY!

By the way MPWR would you be my MasterModeler-JEDI something?:rofl: :rofl:

My thoughts on this subject are is that "constructive criticism" is a very good thing. I personally feel that criticism along with asking questions is the only way a person can learn from their mistakes. So is "constructive criticism a good thing? Yes most deffinatly.

Now with that said there are a few things to think about when giving criticism whether it be here on the forums or in person. A lot of it comes down to the way it is worded, especially here on the forums. Here on the forums people only have the ability to read words. When you are talking to someone face to face you have your tone of voice that can completely change the way something will be taken. I personally love recieving criticism with a proposed solution to what I did wrong. But again it depends on the wording. For someone to tell me that a project that I put a lot of hard work into is "crap" or "garbage" that doesn't fly. Honestly is it that much harder to phrase things differently. Instead of saying "that paint job looks like crap!", Why not say " that paint job could use some work, here's something to try next time....."

Again I think criticism is a great learning tool for everyone, myself included. I just think that it all comes down to the wording that we use when giving criticism...........*Ryan*

I don't think it is entirely neccessary to tell the poster how to correct things. In my opinion, it is enough to simply point out areas that need addressing and if the poster then wishes to do so, he is free search the forums and ask questions. For all we know they might've already done what you end up suggesting but simply not to the degree that you would do.

I have never gone into a thread and bashed a model. I see that from time to time around here. That isn't correct, this isn't correct, should have done this, should have done that. This is not kosher in my book. If I see something that could use some improving, and help the overall quality of the build, I always start out with what Is GREAT about the model, then I'll point out a thing or two and recommend what to try on the next model to get better results...

Interesting reading. Thanks for playing along, everyone.

So to sum up, it seems-

1. Constructive criticism is widely regarded as a whole is a useful tool, or at least a popular idea.

2. Many/most people would like to see more constructive criticism than happens here already. A number of people (often less experinced builders) are frustrated by the lack of useful criticism they receive.

3. The most useful type of criticism is to point out something that could be improved, and provide some idea of how to make that improvement.

4. Many people here (often more experinced builders) are shy about making suggestions on other people's builds, particullarly out of concern for how such critique will be taken.

5. The thing that irritates the greatest number of people are "dude thatz awesome" comments, particullarly on builds that many people feel don't warrent them. But unusually or unnecissarily harsh criticism also draws reactions.

Sound about right?


By the way MPWR would you be my MasterModeler-JEDI something?:rofl: :rofl:
Ah, another modeller who aspires to build by accomplishing as little as possible, yet do so in the most complicated means imaginable. Excellent, suitable pupil! (Be careful who you choose as a master. :evillol:)

Groovy holidays to all. :thumbsup:

Yeah! that sums it up!

Ah, another modeller who aspires to build by accomplishing as little as possible, yet do so in the most complicated means imaginable. Excellent, suitable pupil! (Be careful who you choose as a master. :evillol:)

Groovy holidays to all. :thumbsup:

So I guess I'm taken under your wing... GREAT!!! :biggrin: What a way to start the year. So I'll start trainning err... posting then. Can I call you Master? or just MPWR :icon16:

Merry holidays to all!

Ah, another modeller who aspires to build by accomplishing as little as possible, yet do so in the most complicated means imaginable. Excellent, suitable pupil!

would that be the dark side of the force? or the light?