Putting a V8 engine in 1995 Windstar
searcherrr
09-27-2006, 02:12 AM
Can I put a V8 F150 (or alike) engine in a 1995 Ford Windstar? The van is built on a truck chassis and I think its the F150. Can anyone verify that? Is this possible to put a V8 in this thing direct-bolt-on?
I ask this because I'm told the towing capacity on my 1995 Ford Windstar is 3500 lbs and from my research I've come to the conclusion that this is because of the engine only being a V6 3.8L. Thoughts?
I ask this because I'm told the towing capacity on my 1995 Ford Windstar is 3500 lbs and from my research I've come to the conclusion that this is because of the engine only being a V6 3.8L. Thoughts?
phil-l
09-27-2006, 08:23 AM
Sorry, no traditional Ford V8 has been configured for transverse-mount FWD applications (point of trivia for nit-pickers: The old Taurus SHO 3.4l V8, developed by Yamaha, is one non-traditional exception to this statement; larger displacement descendants of this design now appear in some Volvo and Jag models).
Note that the Windstar chassis and drivetrain actually trace their history to the Taurus, not the F150. Some history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windstar. Don't confuse with Windstar with the Aerostar, which traces its chassis design to the Ranger pickup.
FWIW, the Windstar/Freestar is noted to be among the best minivans for towing applications. There are many people (particularly in Canada) using them for RVs that weigh well beyond the OEM ratings. You can start reading here:
http://www.rvlifemag.com/file343/hitchhints343.html
http://www.canamrv.ca/content.asp?id=12
Note that such towing is a controversial practice. Just for fun, go to the "towing" and "tow vehicle" forums on www.rv.net and search for "minivan".
I use my Windstar to tow a popup camper and have been very pleased with its performance. Good news for minivan towing: As it turns out, 2002+ Windstars and following Freestar models have transmission internals that are shared with the F150, making them among the heaviest-built minivan transaxles now on the market. The optional 4.2l Freestar V6 is also now shared with the F150. Interestingly, virtually *all* minivans share the same maximum tow rating that came with the first Chrysler minivan, some 20 years ago: 3500 pounds. This likely has more to do with lawyers and warranty costs than true vehicle capability.
If you really want a Ford V8 van, why not get an Econoline? Many drivetrain/suspension components are shared with various F-series trucks (depending on the model). E-series vans have good reputations as tow vehicles, but note that 'extended' versions have a long rear overhang that can cause problems when towing.
Note that the Windstar chassis and drivetrain actually trace their history to the Taurus, not the F150. Some history here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windstar. Don't confuse with Windstar with the Aerostar, which traces its chassis design to the Ranger pickup.
FWIW, the Windstar/Freestar is noted to be among the best minivans for towing applications. There are many people (particularly in Canada) using them for RVs that weigh well beyond the OEM ratings. You can start reading here:
http://www.rvlifemag.com/file343/hitchhints343.html
http://www.canamrv.ca/content.asp?id=12
Note that such towing is a controversial practice. Just for fun, go to the "towing" and "tow vehicle" forums on www.rv.net and search for "minivan".
I use my Windstar to tow a popup camper and have been very pleased with its performance. Good news for minivan towing: As it turns out, 2002+ Windstars and following Freestar models have transmission internals that are shared with the F150, making them among the heaviest-built minivan transaxles now on the market. The optional 4.2l Freestar V6 is also now shared with the F150. Interestingly, virtually *all* minivans share the same maximum tow rating that came with the first Chrysler minivan, some 20 years ago: 3500 pounds. This likely has more to do with lawyers and warranty costs than true vehicle capability.
If you really want a Ford V8 van, why not get an Econoline? Many drivetrain/suspension components are shared with various F-series trucks (depending on the model). E-series vans have good reputations as tow vehicles, but note that 'extended' versions have a long rear overhang that can cause problems when towing.
searcherrr
09-27-2006, 12:53 PM
Wow Phil - Thanks for the stellar reply. I didn't think I'd get such a good answer as my experience on here a couple years ago wasn't that great.
Ok - then I guess I should ask this - How do you think towing about a 4000 - 4200lb load would go using my 1995 3.8L Ford Windstar? (I'm including the weight of the trailer and my 3200lb car).
I was visiting a hitch installation place in town and they told me that a 5000lb hitch assembly is made for the Ford Windstar in my year, but after telling the guy that my tow capacity from OEM spec is 3500lbs he advised against it and thought that I'd stall or not make it up hills on my 780 mile trip in which I want to tow my car. Based on what you say a 4000lb - 4200lb tow for this vehicle is likely possible, but I wanted to throw these numbers to ya and see what you'd say.
Last note - I'd love to look into a Econoline or even an SUV, but when I bought this ye ole van it was supposed to serve only 1 purpose; to be a place to sleep when I wanted to run to the beach on the weekends for quick beach trips. As I was told when I got it by a friend at the time, "You start using it a lot more for everything." and this has certainly been true. I'm trying to work with what I have to find the cheapest "move" method for when I move 780 miles away from home 4 months from now. So far renting a truck and tow package is a $600 minimum without even considering gas $$$. All other options I've been entertaining involve leaving my car behind and coming back for it later, but then expense of two trips almost comes close to what it would cost to rent a truck with tow package. A side note: I got the Windstar for $2250 and I've put at least $2500 in preventative maintenance into it however right now I can't afford much more of anything. I would've gotten a truck, but I need something with at least a crew cab and thats why a van just made more sense to me because it can haul stuff and has A/C all the way to the rear and can hold something like 8 people all squished in.
Thanks again and I'll go read on those links you sent me too!
Ok - then I guess I should ask this - How do you think towing about a 4000 - 4200lb load would go using my 1995 3.8L Ford Windstar? (I'm including the weight of the trailer and my 3200lb car).
I was visiting a hitch installation place in town and they told me that a 5000lb hitch assembly is made for the Ford Windstar in my year, but after telling the guy that my tow capacity from OEM spec is 3500lbs he advised against it and thought that I'd stall or not make it up hills on my 780 mile trip in which I want to tow my car. Based on what you say a 4000lb - 4200lb tow for this vehicle is likely possible, but I wanted to throw these numbers to ya and see what you'd say.
Last note - I'd love to look into a Econoline or even an SUV, but when I bought this ye ole van it was supposed to serve only 1 purpose; to be a place to sleep when I wanted to run to the beach on the weekends for quick beach trips. As I was told when I got it by a friend at the time, "You start using it a lot more for everything." and this has certainly been true. I'm trying to work with what I have to find the cheapest "move" method for when I move 780 miles away from home 4 months from now. So far renting a truck and tow package is a $600 minimum without even considering gas $$$. All other options I've been entertaining involve leaving my car behind and coming back for it later, but then expense of two trips almost comes close to what it would cost to rent a truck with tow package. A side note: I got the Windstar for $2250 and I've put at least $2500 in preventative maintenance into it however right now I can't afford much more of anything. I would've gotten a truck, but I need something with at least a crew cab and thats why a van just made more sense to me because it can haul stuff and has A/C all the way to the rear and can hold something like 8 people all squished in.
Thanks again and I'll go read on those links you sent me too!
searcherrr
09-27-2006, 01:16 PM
Another thought on the legal note - I'd always wondered about the 3500lb rating being a legality mostly. Something else I just thought of to compound that - Maybe Ford figures that most of the people that drive these Ford Windstar's are "Soccer Moms" who are probably capable, but much less likely to be able to handle driving while towing a hefty load behind their "mini-van". In that Hitch Hint article you posted a link to above the guy says that there isn't much "mini" about these vans anymore and I certainly have to agree. I call it a truck with a fully extended cab. :) The name mini-van was just a marketing ploy I believe to grab the attention of the Soccer Mom's and alike. Again, I'm not chauvinist. I believe anyone can do anything, but I just don't see Soccer Mom's towing a trailer load anywhere. They are used to easy driving while protecting their kids, so this 3500lb capacity limit (or warning as we could say) makes sense from that standpoint. From a realistic standpoint now I see that it is disproved.
Now if I could just get my engine to run right I'll be set after getting a 5000lb hitch package. Currently the engine is hunting at times when driving or in park. It causes shift problems with the tranny at speeds above 45. I've had the tranny rebuilt once and serviced because of their screwup 1 time since then. I've had new shocks put on all the way around, a new front hub that was bad, tune-up, change the oil regularly, new ps pump, and a new starter. The a/c is on its last leg as the clutch is having trouble engaging lately and I'm willing to bet the timing belt has never been done which could be a lot of my idle (hunting) problem. Its bad enough to where it will nearly stall sometimes. Perhaps the Idle Air Controller as well? Throttle position switch?
Now if I could just get my engine to run right I'll be set after getting a 5000lb hitch package. Currently the engine is hunting at times when driving or in park. It causes shift problems with the tranny at speeds above 45. I've had the tranny rebuilt once and serviced because of their screwup 1 time since then. I've had new shocks put on all the way around, a new front hub that was bad, tune-up, change the oil regularly, new ps pump, and a new starter. The a/c is on its last leg as the clutch is having trouble engaging lately and I'm willing to bet the timing belt has never been done which could be a lot of my idle (hunting) problem. Its bad enough to where it will nearly stall sometimes. Perhaps the Idle Air Controller as well? Throttle position switch?
phil-l
09-27-2006, 03:04 PM
searcherrr -
You've raised a number of topics. Let's dive in...
Minivan towing involves a number of issues that can work differently than towing with SUVs or trucks. I *HIGHLY* recommend you read this thread from www.rv.net, which beats this topic to death:
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/17159884/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1
Yes, it's a lot of material - but worth reading. Poster 'Caddywhompus' is a knowledgeable resource.
If you're going to tow with a Windstar over OEM ratings, note that the '95 is not your best choice. If you're familiar with Windstars, note that early models had a history of head gasket failure. Later models resolved this problem with several fixes, including some that can't really be retrofitted into earlier models (IIRC, coolant flow passage changes in the block). The '95 transmission is also noted for weaknesses that were fixed in later years (aluminum vs. steel shaft, in one instance; this is a common retrofit and may have been done when yours was rebuilt). Both of these problems are excaberated by towing.
From a performance point of view, early Windstars didn't push the 3.8 design very hard; I believe the '95 is rated at 150HP. Ford got busy with a number of upgrades; by 2000, the 3.8 was up to 200HP.
Towing near (or above) OEM ratings practically requires the following:
- An auxiliary transmission cooler
- A weight distributing high and class-III or better receiver
- Trailer brakes (if electric, a quality brake controller; I recommend the Tekonsha Prodigy)
- Possibly some form of sway control
- Perhaps other auxiliary cooling (power steering is common in this category).
In your case, towing a car trailer likely gives you more control over tongue weight (by carefully placing the car) than other trailers. This can be a good thing (to prevent the rear of the van from sagging too much) and a bad thing (a trailer with an overly-light tongue can be prone to sway).
Another reason minivan tow ratings are so conservative: Many people look at the maximum tow capacity - and presume that they can fully load the tow vehicle *and* tow the maximum rated amount. Read your owner's manual carefully! Unlike many trucks and SUVs (whose max tow capacity presumes *only* a driver and *no* cargo or other passenger), the Windstar ratings I've read allow useful cargo/passenger weight and full towing capacity. As always: Read your owner's manual.
Also note that the 3500 pound tow rating required the optional tow package on the Windstar (which wasn't terribly common). As it turns out, most of the useful tow package items involve transmission cooling, so it may not be a big deal to retrofit such things.
Regarding unstable idle: Windstar IAC (idle air control) valves are noted for getting sticky when old. It's easy to remove the valve and clean it with a quality spray carburetor/throttle body cleaner.
Regarding timing: The 3.8 is a pushrod design and uses a timing chain. Unlike a timing belt, no regular replacement is required.
I spent a fair amount of time setting up my Windstar and popup camper for a good towing experience; some pictures of what I did are below:
Adding popup trailer brakes
http://community.webshots.com/album/548339571fnHjzQ
Adding Airlift spring airbags
http://community.webshots.com/album/548741257AJALLi
Tranny cooler, wiring and brake controller
http://community.webshots.com/album/549196858rbUAlb
In closing, towing that kind of weight with a '95 Windstar needs to be approached with a realistic sense of what the minivan can do (i.e., you won't maintain 55 going up even a modest a hill) and the safety issues involved. There are those who will tell you it can't be done - but I've seen people do it. I've also seen people with combinations that had no business being on public roads. A safe, dependable setup will cost money, which needs to be factored into your decision process. Any time/money savings to be had by towing the car could be wiped out in a single mechanical failure or accident.
Other thoughts: Do you have the trailer, or are you planning on renting a trailer for a one-time move? Have you considered a tow dolly instead of a trailer? If you've got a lot of stuff to move in addition to two vehicles, the best solution may involve finding a friend who's up for a road trip; paying to fly a friend home is probably cheaper than most alternatives here.
You've raised a number of topics. Let's dive in...
Minivan towing involves a number of issues that can work differently than towing with SUVs or trucks. I *HIGHLY* recommend you read this thread from www.rv.net, which beats this topic to death:
http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/17159884/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1
Yes, it's a lot of material - but worth reading. Poster 'Caddywhompus' is a knowledgeable resource.
If you're going to tow with a Windstar over OEM ratings, note that the '95 is not your best choice. If you're familiar with Windstars, note that early models had a history of head gasket failure. Later models resolved this problem with several fixes, including some that can't really be retrofitted into earlier models (IIRC, coolant flow passage changes in the block). The '95 transmission is also noted for weaknesses that were fixed in later years (aluminum vs. steel shaft, in one instance; this is a common retrofit and may have been done when yours was rebuilt). Both of these problems are excaberated by towing.
From a performance point of view, early Windstars didn't push the 3.8 design very hard; I believe the '95 is rated at 150HP. Ford got busy with a number of upgrades; by 2000, the 3.8 was up to 200HP.
Towing near (or above) OEM ratings practically requires the following:
- An auxiliary transmission cooler
- A weight distributing high and class-III or better receiver
- Trailer brakes (if electric, a quality brake controller; I recommend the Tekonsha Prodigy)
- Possibly some form of sway control
- Perhaps other auxiliary cooling (power steering is common in this category).
In your case, towing a car trailer likely gives you more control over tongue weight (by carefully placing the car) than other trailers. This can be a good thing (to prevent the rear of the van from sagging too much) and a bad thing (a trailer with an overly-light tongue can be prone to sway).
Another reason minivan tow ratings are so conservative: Many people look at the maximum tow capacity - and presume that they can fully load the tow vehicle *and* tow the maximum rated amount. Read your owner's manual carefully! Unlike many trucks and SUVs (whose max tow capacity presumes *only* a driver and *no* cargo or other passenger), the Windstar ratings I've read allow useful cargo/passenger weight and full towing capacity. As always: Read your owner's manual.
Also note that the 3500 pound tow rating required the optional tow package on the Windstar (which wasn't terribly common). As it turns out, most of the useful tow package items involve transmission cooling, so it may not be a big deal to retrofit such things.
Regarding unstable idle: Windstar IAC (idle air control) valves are noted for getting sticky when old. It's easy to remove the valve and clean it with a quality spray carburetor/throttle body cleaner.
Regarding timing: The 3.8 is a pushrod design and uses a timing chain. Unlike a timing belt, no regular replacement is required.
I spent a fair amount of time setting up my Windstar and popup camper for a good towing experience; some pictures of what I did are below:
Adding popup trailer brakes
http://community.webshots.com/album/548339571fnHjzQ
Adding Airlift spring airbags
http://community.webshots.com/album/548741257AJALLi
Tranny cooler, wiring and brake controller
http://community.webshots.com/album/549196858rbUAlb
In closing, towing that kind of weight with a '95 Windstar needs to be approached with a realistic sense of what the minivan can do (i.e., you won't maintain 55 going up even a modest a hill) and the safety issues involved. There are those who will tell you it can't be done - but I've seen people do it. I've also seen people with combinations that had no business being on public roads. A safe, dependable setup will cost money, which needs to be factored into your decision process. Any time/money savings to be had by towing the car could be wiped out in a single mechanical failure or accident.
Other thoughts: Do you have the trailer, or are you planning on renting a trailer for a one-time move? Have you considered a tow dolly instead of a trailer? If you've got a lot of stuff to move in addition to two vehicles, the best solution may involve finding a friend who's up for a road trip; paying to fly a friend home is probably cheaper than most alternatives here.
12Ounce
09-27-2006, 07:27 PM
Phil-l
Nice photos. What brand of air spring kit is that?
Nice photos. What brand of air spring kit is that?
phil-l
09-27-2006, 08:02 PM
12Ounce -
They're AirLift 1000 spring airbags. You can find them at www.summitracing.com, among other places:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AIR%2D60799&N=700+400054+300083+4294908331+4294907825+115&autoview=sku
($69.88 plus shipping; more if you get the kit that includes a compressor)
I got them to be able to adjust the rear of the van while towing. As it turns out, my popup is fairly light. The tongue weight is about 240 pounds, loaded for a trip with my family of 5. As RV tongue weights go, this is very low; I don't particularly need the spring airbags.
Heavy-duty tongue weights would really require a weight distributing hitch, which can move weight to the front wheels (spring airbags can't).
I most appreciate the airbags while *not* towing. The Windstar (and most minivans) are softly sprung in the rear; the airbags help firm things up. The AirLift 1000 airbags can handle from 5 to 35 psi. I tend to run 20-25 psi when towing; 10-15 psi when not towing.
They're AirLift 1000 spring airbags. You can find them at www.summitracing.com, among other places:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AIR%2D60799&N=700+400054+300083+4294908331+4294907825+115&autoview=sku
($69.88 plus shipping; more if you get the kit that includes a compressor)
I got them to be able to adjust the rear of the van while towing. As it turns out, my popup is fairly light. The tongue weight is about 240 pounds, loaded for a trip with my family of 5. As RV tongue weights go, this is very low; I don't particularly need the spring airbags.
Heavy-duty tongue weights would really require a weight distributing hitch, which can move weight to the front wheels (spring airbags can't).
I most appreciate the airbags while *not* towing. The Windstar (and most minivans) are softly sprung in the rear; the airbags help firm things up. The AirLift 1000 airbags can handle from 5 to 35 psi. I tend to run 20-25 psi when towing; 10-15 psi when not towing.
ModMech
09-27-2006, 11:01 PM
The WS is indeed a Taurus platform based vehicle, and I would not tow over 3500# with either, no matter what.
The Ford 4.6L V-8 was introduced in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car (RWD) and has been used *almost* exclusively in RWD applications since. Some include the Mustang, Crown Vic (inc Police), F-150/250, Expedition, Marauder etc. They even used them in the FWD Lincoln Continental (also, but loosely based on the Tore-ass).
With SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded brakes, and a Contiental V-8 engine & transmission swap you may just have something.
The Ford 4.6L V-8 was introduced in the 1991 Lincoln Town Car (RWD) and has been used *almost* exclusively in RWD applications since. Some include the Mustang, Crown Vic (inc Police), F-150/250, Expedition, Marauder etc. They even used them in the FWD Lincoln Continental (also, but loosely based on the Tore-ass).
With SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded brakes, and a Contiental V-8 engine & transmission swap you may just have something.
phil-l
09-28-2006, 07:12 AM
Interesting - I hadn't realized the modular V8 made it into the FWD Lincoln. Though I suspect the long Continental front end left room for the wide V8 - room that wouldn't be available in the front of a Windstar, at least without lots of serious metal work.
Still, it'd be an interesting project for someone with lots of time and money...
Still, it'd be an interesting project for someone with lots of time and money...
searcherrr
09-28-2006, 10:05 AM
Well, this has turned into an interesting thread. I wouldn't have expected that. LOL
OK - Here we go -
1. I already have a tranny cooler installed (shoulda said that sooner).
2. I would get a 5000lb hitch setup. Wouldn't that be a class III no matter what?
3. Trailer itself - I would be looking at getting an Anderson Trailer model # SC718 or similar as shown here: Anderson Trailer SC718 Link (http://www.andersontrailers.com/carhauler_trailers.php) - You can also look at the PDF spec sheets there and I saw mention of "electric breakaway" - Isn't that electric brakes?
4. I don't know how honest the dealership was being with me when I checked, but when I first got the Windstar I shortly thereafter found out about the head gasket issue on select models. Apparently it was due to select models manufactured out of specific Ford assembly plants and they told me that mine wasn't one of the defective ones. I have nearly 140K on my 95 Windstar now and it shows zero signs of oil leakage. Do I trust? or recheck at another dealership?
5. If I get that trailer in #3 (unless someone can recommend a less heavy one equipped with electric brakes) then I will certainly check out the Tekonsha Prodigy or similar quality brake controller and purchase it. I realize that buying all this stuff (trailer included) is going to surpass the cost of what it would take to do a rental thing entirely, but I get nothing by doing that other than the trip itself whereas obviously buying a trailer and having a hitch setup is something more permanent which can provide me with other usage later on. (IE: Boats, campers, and my car again etc..)
6. Nix the Sway Control for good driving; although if I can fit it into budget and find someone to install it I may do so.
7. Nix the power steering cooler as I just replaced my PS pump, although yes I do realize that because the pump is new it won't probably run much cooler but I don't mind straining the NEW pump for 1 780 mile trip.
8. Also remember that I've got new Premium Gabriel struts/shocks all the way around recently, but the springs are still the old factory ones.
9. I have considered a tow dolley rental, but they supposedly are rated at 45mph tops. My girlfriend used to work at UHaul though and its another one of those legal issues. She says that no one used to obey that 45 mph limit. Besides that I really wanted my car's wheels OFF the ground for this trip as it too is high in mileage, but if all else fails I will crumble into this idea if I have to.
10. HORSEPOWER - I've got the 3.8L engine. Click here for Specs. (http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2162/Act/usedcarreviewspecs/) so supposedly I have between 155 - 200 hp
ModMech - I appreciate the safety warning, but I cannot ignore the facts that I've been introduced to by Phil in that other people have done it, I've read about it now, and he's seen people do it as well mind-you with a lil work. I'm not the type of guy to do something unsafe or to do anything big like this without much in depth research first. Before this thread I was convinced I could not tow with my 95 Windstar, but now I'm seeing the possibilities that I can just because I'm expanding my mind here.
Phil - I read that rv.net article you linked to above at least the first 2 pages in the thread pretty thoroughly and skimmed the rest. I'll use the calculations that Caddywhompus (javascript:;) used and figure my numbers out for my 95 Windstar.
Now for the Caviats -
1. The trailer weighs about 1200lbs. This means I'd be towing 4400 lbs (vehicle 3200lbs + trailer 1200lbs) not to mention whatever I load in the van and possibly the car. Is this gonna kill the van?
2. Remaining MATH to be done when I get home for the GVWR and GCWR.
3. If the dealership lied to me and I blow a head gasket on the trip. In any case I'd be out some bucks for hotel and whatever else, but I bet I'd be able to get a new engine from Ford. :)
4. SPEED - Will it suck entirely for 780 miles straight? Will I be limited to 55 or 65mph? I guess I can live with 65 or 70 if I can squeeze it out. Going up inclines will be a big issue. Maybe I can just get some momentum, but I certainly don't want to be doing 30mph on the interstate. Thoughts?
Well, I think thats enough for now. Lets see some replies ! CHEERIO !
OK - Here we go -
1. I already have a tranny cooler installed (shoulda said that sooner).
2. I would get a 5000lb hitch setup. Wouldn't that be a class III no matter what?
3. Trailer itself - I would be looking at getting an Anderson Trailer model # SC718 or similar as shown here: Anderson Trailer SC718 Link (http://www.andersontrailers.com/carhauler_trailers.php) - You can also look at the PDF spec sheets there and I saw mention of "electric breakaway" - Isn't that electric brakes?
4. I don't know how honest the dealership was being with me when I checked, but when I first got the Windstar I shortly thereafter found out about the head gasket issue on select models. Apparently it was due to select models manufactured out of specific Ford assembly plants and they told me that mine wasn't one of the defective ones. I have nearly 140K on my 95 Windstar now and it shows zero signs of oil leakage. Do I trust? or recheck at another dealership?
5. If I get that trailer in #3 (unless someone can recommend a less heavy one equipped with electric brakes) then I will certainly check out the Tekonsha Prodigy or similar quality brake controller and purchase it. I realize that buying all this stuff (trailer included) is going to surpass the cost of what it would take to do a rental thing entirely, but I get nothing by doing that other than the trip itself whereas obviously buying a trailer and having a hitch setup is something more permanent which can provide me with other usage later on. (IE: Boats, campers, and my car again etc..)
6. Nix the Sway Control for good driving; although if I can fit it into budget and find someone to install it I may do so.
7. Nix the power steering cooler as I just replaced my PS pump, although yes I do realize that because the pump is new it won't probably run much cooler but I don't mind straining the NEW pump for 1 780 mile trip.
8. Also remember that I've got new Premium Gabriel struts/shocks all the way around recently, but the springs are still the old factory ones.
9. I have considered a tow dolley rental, but they supposedly are rated at 45mph tops. My girlfriend used to work at UHaul though and its another one of those legal issues. She says that no one used to obey that 45 mph limit. Besides that I really wanted my car's wheels OFF the ground for this trip as it too is high in mileage, but if all else fails I will crumble into this idea if I have to.
10. HORSEPOWER - I've got the 3.8L engine. Click here for Specs. (http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2162/Act/usedcarreviewspecs/) so supposedly I have between 155 - 200 hp
ModMech - I appreciate the safety warning, but I cannot ignore the facts that I've been introduced to by Phil in that other people have done it, I've read about it now, and he's seen people do it as well mind-you with a lil work. I'm not the type of guy to do something unsafe or to do anything big like this without much in depth research first. Before this thread I was convinced I could not tow with my 95 Windstar, but now I'm seeing the possibilities that I can just because I'm expanding my mind here.
Phil - I read that rv.net article you linked to above at least the first 2 pages in the thread pretty thoroughly and skimmed the rest. I'll use the calculations that Caddywhompus (javascript:;) used and figure my numbers out for my 95 Windstar.
Now for the Caviats -
1. The trailer weighs about 1200lbs. This means I'd be towing 4400 lbs (vehicle 3200lbs + trailer 1200lbs) not to mention whatever I load in the van and possibly the car. Is this gonna kill the van?
2. Remaining MATH to be done when I get home for the GVWR and GCWR.
3. If the dealership lied to me and I blow a head gasket on the trip. In any case I'd be out some bucks for hotel and whatever else, but I bet I'd be able to get a new engine from Ford. :)
4. SPEED - Will it suck entirely for 780 miles straight? Will I be limited to 55 or 65mph? I guess I can live with 65 or 70 if I can squeeze it out. Going up inclines will be a big issue. Maybe I can just get some momentum, but I certainly don't want to be doing 30mph on the interstate. Thoughts?
Well, I think thats enough for now. Lets see some replies ! CHEERIO !
12Ounce
09-28-2006, 05:59 PM
All Windstars were assembled in one Canadian plant (Oakville, ONT). The headgaskets were an issue on '95's and '96's ... per what I think I read on the internet.
Sure, Ford will give you a replacement engine ... for perhaps $4000 or so.
Sure, Ford will give you a replacement engine ... for perhaps $4000 or so.
phil-l
09-28-2006, 08:16 PM
searcherrr -
I had to think about this one for awhile...
If it were me: Personally, I'd find some way to have both vehicles driven for the move (I helped a friend deliver a car from Ohio to Montana once - it was a blast!). Your proposed trip offers quite a few downsides from a safety, reliability and legal point of view - and only the only upside is saving some money (and perhaps some time).
That said, if you're going to do it, some things to keep in mind:
- Find some way to get a real-life towing test before the big trip. Get the van set up to tow and borrow/rent a trailer - and load it with *less* than what you anticipate - and take a drive. Do some highway miles; do some hills; do some curves; do a realistic panic stop. How does it handle? Does the temperature gauge stay in place? Can it maintain reasonable speed without lots of downshifts? If you can, then try upping the weight to see how it does.
- Your owner's manual likely recommends staying out of overdrive while towing. This is to limit transaxle stress and heat. This also means the engine will rev higher than normal at a given speed. For this reason alone, you'll probably want to maintain lower speeds than normal.
- Wikipedia claims only 155 HP for 1995 3.8 models (though a healthy 220 ft. lbs. of torque), so count on slow climbing on hills - or in flatland headwinds.
- If you're going to be over the OEM tow limit, at least make some effort to stay under the GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating) for the combination. This means traveling with an *empty* van (and *empty* car on the trailer). Yes, I know: If you're moving, you're probably planning to bring a lot of stuff. The weight will become your enemy when starting, turning, stopping... everything.
- If you do some research, you'll discover that many of large RVs towed with minivans (such as set up by Can Am RV's Andy Thompson) use advanced hitch systems, such as the Hensley Arrow, to help deal with weight and handling issues. These are specialty items (the Hensley hitch system runs $2000 to $3000 by itself) that make a big difference for towing large loads. Obviously, you aren't planning to use such equipment. You are, however, capable of using a healthy sense of caution and common sense. Other motorists on the road deserve no less.
- One item I didn't mention before: A full size spare. The stock 'donut' mini-spare isn't rated for towing. I upgraded to a full size spare, which fits fine in the stock carrier. It's a worthwhile investment the first time you're at the side of the road with a flat while towing (and Murphy dictates it will be raining - at night - in the middle of nowhere on a holiday weekend).
- Take your time. You won't win any speed awards with this combination - so don't try.
- Regarding 'electric breakaway': This means the trailer has electric brakes - and also has a switch (and onboard battery) that will activate the brakes in case the trailer ends up being completely disconnected from the tow vehicle. An important safety feature; make sure it works correctly. There are also trailers that have hydraulic brakes, known as a 'surge' system. They also have a similar breakaway safety feature.
After doing a lot of reading and upgrades on my van, our family of 5 took our Windstar and popup camper (2500 pound GVWR) from Maryland to Florida early this year - and several other trips since. Everything worked fine. The combination handles well and stops with confidence. We pack carefully to hold down on weight. It was a lot of work (adding brakes to the popup camper wasn't a project I envisioned when we bought it), but I ended up appreciating every one of the projects I did.
So... Do a lot of reading; take your time and don't be afraid to ask more questions. And if you're in the middle of doing something - and that little voice in the back of your head says "I don't know about this...", stop until you figure it out!
I had to think about this one for awhile...
If it were me: Personally, I'd find some way to have both vehicles driven for the move (I helped a friend deliver a car from Ohio to Montana once - it was a blast!). Your proposed trip offers quite a few downsides from a safety, reliability and legal point of view - and only the only upside is saving some money (and perhaps some time).
That said, if you're going to do it, some things to keep in mind:
- Find some way to get a real-life towing test before the big trip. Get the van set up to tow and borrow/rent a trailer - and load it with *less* than what you anticipate - and take a drive. Do some highway miles; do some hills; do some curves; do a realistic panic stop. How does it handle? Does the temperature gauge stay in place? Can it maintain reasonable speed without lots of downshifts? If you can, then try upping the weight to see how it does.
- Your owner's manual likely recommends staying out of overdrive while towing. This is to limit transaxle stress and heat. This also means the engine will rev higher than normal at a given speed. For this reason alone, you'll probably want to maintain lower speeds than normal.
- Wikipedia claims only 155 HP for 1995 3.8 models (though a healthy 220 ft. lbs. of torque), so count on slow climbing on hills - or in flatland headwinds.
- If you're going to be over the OEM tow limit, at least make some effort to stay under the GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating) for the combination. This means traveling with an *empty* van (and *empty* car on the trailer). Yes, I know: If you're moving, you're probably planning to bring a lot of stuff. The weight will become your enemy when starting, turning, stopping... everything.
- If you do some research, you'll discover that many of large RVs towed with minivans (such as set up by Can Am RV's Andy Thompson) use advanced hitch systems, such as the Hensley Arrow, to help deal with weight and handling issues. These are specialty items (the Hensley hitch system runs $2000 to $3000 by itself) that make a big difference for towing large loads. Obviously, you aren't planning to use such equipment. You are, however, capable of using a healthy sense of caution and common sense. Other motorists on the road deserve no less.
- One item I didn't mention before: A full size spare. The stock 'donut' mini-spare isn't rated for towing. I upgraded to a full size spare, which fits fine in the stock carrier. It's a worthwhile investment the first time you're at the side of the road with a flat while towing (and Murphy dictates it will be raining - at night - in the middle of nowhere on a holiday weekend).
- Take your time. You won't win any speed awards with this combination - so don't try.
- Regarding 'electric breakaway': This means the trailer has electric brakes - and also has a switch (and onboard battery) that will activate the brakes in case the trailer ends up being completely disconnected from the tow vehicle. An important safety feature; make sure it works correctly. There are also trailers that have hydraulic brakes, known as a 'surge' system. They also have a similar breakaway safety feature.
After doing a lot of reading and upgrades on my van, our family of 5 took our Windstar and popup camper (2500 pound GVWR) from Maryland to Florida early this year - and several other trips since. Everything worked fine. The combination handles well and stops with confidence. We pack carefully to hold down on weight. It was a lot of work (adding brakes to the popup camper wasn't a project I envisioned when we bought it), but I ended up appreciating every one of the projects I did.
So... Do a lot of reading; take your time and don't be afraid to ask more questions. And if you're in the middle of doing something - and that little voice in the back of your head says "I don't know about this...", stop until you figure it out!
wiswind
09-29-2006, 09:31 PM
They upgraded the 3.8L front wheel drive version engine from 155hp to 200hp in 1996 and used it exclusively in the windstar. At that time, they made improvements to the coolant passeges, which reduced the head gasket failures.
There are still reported head gasket failures on the '96 3.8L, but many are due to mis-diagnosis of intake manifold gasket leakage, which also causes coolant leakage into the cylinders of the engine.
I have replaced the intake manifold gaskets on my '96 3.8L.
The Front Cover, aka Timing Cover gasket is also a high failure item.
Both the intake manifold and timing cover replacement gaskets from FORD are improved over the original design, so you should only have to do that repair 1 time.
I would take an oil sample and send it into a lab for analysis to see if there is any coolant in the oil. The above gaskets are causes of coolant getting into the engine oil, which will lead to major failure of the engine if not caught and corrected in time.
1995 was the worst year for transmission failure, but if the repair / replacement was done correctly, the replacement should be improved over the original.
I would use a synthetic ATF (1995 calls for Mercon rated fluid, NOT Mercon V). This is in addition to the auxilary cooler for the transmission.
Also, change the fluid AT LEAST every 30K miles, 21K miles for "severe service".
I would also check to make sure that you have BOTH radiator fan speeds.
I had ONLY 1 speed, high, for a long time......and found that the radiator low speed fan dropping resistor was broken.
I have pictures of that pesky resistor in my pictures.
Having both fan speeds will have a nice impact on the cooling of that transmission, as the fans will be running more.
When the A/C is ON, and you are below a certain speed, the radiator fans will be running on low all the time, which is nice when sitting in traffic.
There are still reported head gasket failures on the '96 3.8L, but many are due to mis-diagnosis of intake manifold gasket leakage, which also causes coolant leakage into the cylinders of the engine.
I have replaced the intake manifold gaskets on my '96 3.8L.
The Front Cover, aka Timing Cover gasket is also a high failure item.
Both the intake manifold and timing cover replacement gaskets from FORD are improved over the original design, so you should only have to do that repair 1 time.
I would take an oil sample and send it into a lab for analysis to see if there is any coolant in the oil. The above gaskets are causes of coolant getting into the engine oil, which will lead to major failure of the engine if not caught and corrected in time.
1995 was the worst year for transmission failure, but if the repair / replacement was done correctly, the replacement should be improved over the original.
I would use a synthetic ATF (1995 calls for Mercon rated fluid, NOT Mercon V). This is in addition to the auxilary cooler for the transmission.
Also, change the fluid AT LEAST every 30K miles, 21K miles for "severe service".
I would also check to make sure that you have BOTH radiator fan speeds.
I had ONLY 1 speed, high, for a long time......and found that the radiator low speed fan dropping resistor was broken.
I have pictures of that pesky resistor in my pictures.
Having both fan speeds will have a nice impact on the cooling of that transmission, as the fans will be running more.
When the A/C is ON, and you are below a certain speed, the radiator fans will be running on low all the time, which is nice when sitting in traffic.
searcherrr
10-03-2006, 05:24 PM
Well, I'm not having any leaks anywhere, so I don't know about replacing gaskets if it seems like I'm fine for now though it is very good to know which gaskets are of possible problems.
1. Where is the IAC? Is it likely my cause for the engine seeming like its going to kill as well as stumble after a long trip over 100 miles? It stumbles even when I'm going 50 - 70 mph, but this is only after long trips of over 100 miles. I've taken apart and cleaned an IAC before and I know how to do it properly. I'm just wondering if this is my issue to try and save some $$$ before I bring it to the shop.
2. What causes a delay in the A/C clutch engaging after turning on the A/C switch? It takes anywhere from like 5 to 15 seconds to finally engage.
3. So is the consensus that ya'll are advising me against towing a car with my 1995 Windstar?
1. Where is the IAC? Is it likely my cause for the engine seeming like its going to kill as well as stumble after a long trip over 100 miles? It stumbles even when I'm going 50 - 70 mph, but this is only after long trips of over 100 miles. I've taken apart and cleaned an IAC before and I know how to do it properly. I'm just wondering if this is my issue to try and save some $$$ before I bring it to the shop.
2. What causes a delay in the A/C clutch engaging after turning on the A/C switch? It takes anywhere from like 5 to 15 seconds to finally engage.
3. So is the consensus that ya'll are advising me against towing a car with my 1995 Windstar?
searcherrr
10-03-2006, 06:11 PM
All Windstars were assembled in one Canadian plant (Oakville, ONT). The headgaskets were an issue on '95's and '96's ... per what I think I read on the internet.
Sure, Ford will give you a replacement engine ... for perhaps $4000 or so.
Could I put a 98 engine in my 95 Windstar direct-bolt-on? or maybe a better question is what is the youngest year Windstar engine that will fit in my 95 Windstar? Could I put in a 99 or a 2000 engine? I would assume not because the Windstar underwent a major revision in 99.
Sure, Ford will give you a replacement engine ... for perhaps $4000 or so.
Could I put a 98 engine in my 95 Windstar direct-bolt-on? or maybe a better question is what is the youngest year Windstar engine that will fit in my 95 Windstar? Could I put in a 99 or a 2000 engine? I would assume not because the Windstar underwent a major revision in 99.
phil-l
10-05-2006, 09:16 AM
- The IAC is attached to the throttle body. Easy to get to. However, the IAC should really only affect idle issues; if you're having problems at highway speeds, I'd suspect other things.
- I'm not familiar with this kind of A/C problem...
- As mentioned before, I would find a way to move the car that doesn't involve overloading your Windstar.
- Theoretically, later engines will fit your Windstar. However, the electronic controls, sensors and harnesses all changed. This would be a big job and would involve working out a lot of electronic and wiring problems (and getting a donor ECU, etc.). It might even involve a tranny swap. You'd probably be better off simply finding a later Windstar.
- I'm not familiar with this kind of A/C problem...
- As mentioned before, I would find a way to move the car that doesn't involve overloading your Windstar.
- Theoretically, later engines will fit your Windstar. However, the electronic controls, sensors and harnesses all changed. This would be a big job and would involve working out a lot of electronic and wiring problems (and getting a donor ECU, etc.). It might even involve a tranny swap. You'd probably be better off simply finding a later Windstar.
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