Combined Completed/Gallery Subforum

This idea of splitting streetlegal cars/bikes to different sections, is confusing.
Also the old idea of combined WIP and Completed was confusing.

Splitting sections to Motorsports and Streetlegal cars/bikes WIP's is good.
And combined section to all the Completed ones. Time will tell if that section should be separeted as Compeleted Motorsport and Streelegal sections.

Why is it so confusing? :dunno: If a model is a bike, it goes in bikes - simple.

Muscle cars/hotrods is a bit more arbitary, basically we'll leave it to the poster to decide where they belong. 99% of cases will be quite clear, the other 1% we can be flexible on.

I recall that one argument against the motorsports folder was "what about drifters" well that turned out to be easily managed. Just as I expect the new ones will be. Sure, with more folders there is bound to be more work for the mods to do. Maybe we might need more! :lol:

I hope the shock of the changes is wearing off and we can get back to what we are really about - namely building models! :)

Thanks for your comments Purpura Delujo, if we can encourage new people to join and old ones to return that is the idea. Sorry if the suddenness of it all has upset other valued members. Unfortunately the way AF works (and in the past didn't work!), it had to happen like this.

I just would like to say, coming from me, who hasn't had the time to check everything lately, due to the lack of time and lack of a bit of interest...

this new layout is quite perfect for me, and especially the completed thread gets my seal of approval, pretty nice if you want to see what's been built overall and get nice ideas from models you wouldn't look normally at.
Plus I m back into modeling (i just finished some kind of mercedes AMG TK!)

Hooray for the new forums, may they have a long and prosperous life!

Good job moderators.

Oli

I think there should be completed sections for motorsport and street.

I don't like it.

- - - - Car Modeling
- - - - - - WIP
- - - - - - Completed/Gallery

That would be simple enough. No favoritism, no special treatment to the pathetic whiners.

>RallyRaider
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b258/hirofkd/misc/fired.jpg
:evillol::evillol::evillol:
Sorry, local joke.


I agree 100%. I am not even reading the rest of this thread!

I haven't read the entire thread. I think that the bikes will lose a lot of viewers as there are primarily car builders on this forum. When you combine cars and bikes you get more viewers on each category and get inspiration and som build tricks from "the other side". As the bike nische is quite a bit more narrow than the car one, I guess the car builders won't be visiting the bike section very much. That's my 2 cent.
best regards
Joel

Why is it so confusing? :dunno: If a model is a bike, it goes in bikes - simple.
.

Its confusing because now if I want to look at a completed race car I have to sort through a bunch of other types to find anything and vice versa :rolleyes:

If you’re going to seperate everything up, you should also do this to the completed areas.

its confusing because now if I want to look at a completed race car I have to sort through a bunch of other types to find anything and vice versa :rolleyes:

isnt this the problem you were trying to solve? lol :screwy:

Nope. How many models are completed here in any given week? A small enough number that people prone to missing things should miss an awful lot less than they did before the “upheaval”.

So what categories of objection do we have so far:

1. Those who connect more subforums with ScaleAuto - so it must be bad.
Fix: We're not ScaleAuto guys, take your political agendas elsewhere.

2. Those who think they'll be missing builds.
Fix: Click the links to check out all the WIP forums, tabbed browsing is the way to go.

3. Those who are afraid the new Bike and Musclecar forums will be orphaned. Trial: This one is possibly valid, we'll have to wait and see. On the other hand it just might do the opposite and increase visibility. That is the hope, only time will tell. Consider them on trial. Sure wasn’t a problem with the Motorsports folder.

4. Those who are labouring under misapprehensions, like the proclaimed failure of the Motorsports folder (subsequently discredited).
Fix: Do your research next time. In that particular instance the people branding the Motorsports folder a failure openly admitted they didn't visit the damn thing. It makes no sense, it they're not interested in opening the Motorsports forum why would they be more likely to open a Motorsports thread in a common forum? And what would be achieved by forcing or tricking anybody to do so if that's not their field of interest?

5. Those harbouring bitterness against the mods.
Fix: PM twospirits and ask him if you can have my spot.

Any more cons? What about pros?

1. Its AF policy to increase the number of subforums to cater for special interest groups. That's a big part of the explanation behind the sudden appearance of the Muscle Car subforum.

2. Fosters growth in areas that have been marginalised or simply drowned out in the past.

3. Makes it easier to find the type of model you are searching for without wading through those that you are not interested in.

4. Despite the separate WIP everybody is brought together in the end with a common showcase of completed models. Okay, you have to sort through them this time. But the volume will be smaller and you might accidentally click on something that turns out not to suck.

5. There is no downside that cannot be fixed by clicking on a link. To think we used to have to get in cars and drive to meetings and shows to see others people's work, share tips and just chinwag. Now clicking on an appropriately positioned mouse button is too much?

5. Those harbouring bitterness against the mods.
Fix: PM twospirits and ask him if you can have my spot.
They can ask, but you are not going anywhere. :nono:

TS

As I've said, these changes are great. I'm just shocked at the backlash this has caused. One of the reasons I like this forum so much is because it was so carefree and easy going. Now there seems to be an element that is up in arms and making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm disappointed in this case. Guys rather put this energy into building stuff to fill up the forum.
Seriously this whole week, I've read nothing about builds, but just complaining. Lets just accept what has happened and remember the real reason that we come to this forum......

My biggest concern is the discrimination against the majority of AF modeling members, who happen too be Nissan and Ferrari enthusiasts. They've been treated like second class members, while a small group of sub-forum visitors get their safe haven.

Why do you think I used a strong world like "failure" to make the point in the first place? It was a counter opinion against "success." The fact of the matter is it can not be measured. There's no such thing as time will tell. Time won't tell you anything unless some kind of objective and measurable criteria is presented beforehand. Otherwise, it's going to be the same mistake again: useless opinions driven by personal gain. What's considered successful for the Muscle car and motorcycle sub-forums? Thread counts, number of new members, growth rate? What are the numbers do they have to meet?

In case you don't know, asking a particular group of people, whether a sub-forum is success or not is like asking the visitors of a baseball stadium, if they like baseball or not. I hate to sound too academic, but such reasoning is invalid, because it's a typical logical fallacy (do you know what it is?), and the question itself is biased (consequently, any conclusion is invalid, too). And having a sub-forum contributed to the increase of group-bias victims, and soon we'll have two more sets of biased people. Worsening the quality of members...great success, yeah right.

I'd rather be a uniter than divider, telling people to be fair, patient and mutually beneficial, regardless of their skills and interests.

I have no idea why this kind of discrimination is acceptable. As an avid motorsports modeler, I deeply feel sorry for the rest of the members.

Why do you think I used a strong world like "failure" to make the point in the first place? It was a counter opinion against "success."

Now that is simply not true. The Motorsports divide was attacked and branded a "failure" first, check the thread. I was honestly shaken by the suggestion, so posed the question to members. The healthy majority response of that survey, however unscientific, was "success". Now compare this data to yours, which is what exactly? To take the logical high ground given the totally baseless and unsupported nature of the "failure" tag is a tad hypocritical.

My biggest concern is the discrimination against the majority of AF modeling members, who happen too be Nissan and Ferrari enthusiasts. They've been treated like second class members, while a small group of sub-forum visitors get their safe haven.

Okay, this sounds like a whole other issue entirely. Please help me understand because I cannot see how the Nissan and Ferrari enthusiasts have been treated like second class members. Don't they fit in the street and Motorsports sections as much as any other make? How does the formation of the new folders discriminate against Nissan and Ferrari builders or any other manufacturer for that matter? Please let us know because if what you are saying has any basis in fact, or widespread perception, then we need to address the problem ASAP.

Well, it really depends on your definition of success. We can't make a determination without defining our terms first.

Did the split of the Motorsport section please a small portion of AF members that it was intended to cater to? Yes- if this is your definition of success, the Motorsports section has done this. Phil's unscientific survey of Motorsports section users indicates that the section is in fact popular with its regular users.

Did the split of the Motorsport section improve the performance of AF, or provide benefit to the forum as a whole, beyond just the subset of Motorsports users? There isn't data to conclusively indicate this, but if this is your definition of success, the addition of the Motorsport section probably has not done these things. It would be easy to argue for the case of failure.

As Phil stated above, it is appearently AF's policy to divide into as many subforums as necessary to to please whatever special interest subsects may or may not exist. It does seem to place the desires of the few above the desires of the many. While many of us may argue (some of us vehimently) this is an undesired or ill advised aproach, unfortunately in the end we all must play by the admin's rules. A Scale Auto style of superdivided forum may be an eventual inevitability. If AF wants to divide, all it takes is someone to say "hey, we need a Winnebago section!", and even if the other dozen Winnebago fans vocally object and state that they like the forum as it is, eventually that Winnebago section may appear. Meanwhile, those of us who like our Winnebagos mixed in with our Hondas and Porsches are left to enjoy AF as best we can, until what we've always enjoyed about this forum gets subdivided out of existance.

But I would like to insert a desperate plea now- Please don't divide off Ferraris and Nissans (or anything else)! I don't care if I'm a second class citizen because AF doesn't yet have a subdivision to conveniently pigeon hole me into- I'll cope with the injustice, I promise. Haven't we already had enough change for a year?

A Scale Auto style of superdivided forum may be an eventual inevitability. If AF wants to divide, all it takes is someone to say "hey, we need a Winnebago section!", and even if the other dozen Winnebago fans vocally object and state that they like the forum as it is, eventually that Winnebago section may appear. Meanwhile, those of us who like our Winnebagos mixed in with our Hondas and Porsches are left to enjoy AF as best we can, until what we've always enjoyed about this forum gets subdivided out of existance.


Precisely, even though we're labeled "political" because we even dare mention this fact. Any forum that is intended to please a small majority over the large always ends up with controversy as it changes. As this one attempts to please the subdividers, it's started a whole new phase of A/F where it was once peaceful it's now embroiled in turmoil. Totally unnecesary IMHO, but since it's not my website my opinion matters not at all. ACME members have our own forum now and that's where we spend lots of our quality time.

Our own club forum and Scale Auto's and Model Cars Magazine's forums has a nifty feature in our board software that A/F doesn't have; the ability to view only the newest posts since the last visit. So it really doesn't matter how many bloody sub-forums there are when viewed that way; you get an easy-to-navigate list of threads from all the sub-forums. It's made navigating Scale Auto's forum MUCH easier-one simple page of new postings, you can see what every single subject is without having to open up any sub-forums. If A/F were to have that feature my argument against the subdividing wouldn't matter. IMHO the fewer clicks the better. You might think you're neater and more organized, but you're making everyone spend more time to get to the good stuff.

Well, it really depends on your definition of success. We can't make a determination without defining our terms first.
Trouble is since we are at loggerheads we will never be able to agree on those terms.

Did the split of the Motorsport section improve the performance of AF, or provide benefit to the forum as a whole, beyond just the subset of Motorsports users? There isn't data to conclusively indicate this, but if this is your definition of success, the addition of the Motorsport section probably has not done these things. It would be easy to argue for the case of failure.

Was the Motorsports subforum intended to improve the performance of AF? What exactly does that mean? Did it solve any problems in COT? Did it reduce spam? Did it improve the grammar of posters? Did it reduce the number of irrelevant threads? Of course not. If that is your criteria then I think you are clearly expecting way too much of a simple subforum creation. All it did, all it could ever possibly do, is formalize a new nested subcomminity within the many layers of AF. Is their any doubt about that? I think that's a good thing, worthy of calling a success. Some people, on the other hand seem to regard that with jealousy, as if the convenience and belonging of others somehow detracts from their own happiness, making them second class citizens. That is plain silly, part of being a community is respecting each others differences.

That's my take on the "defining terms" game. You'll no doubt disagree.

As Phil stated above, it is appearently AF's policy to divide into as many subforums as necessary to to please whatever special interest subsects may or may not exist. It does seem to place the desires of the few above the desires of the many.

This is a dangerous argument to take. What if we extrapolate it to encompass the whole of AF. In the bigger picture what is the modelling forum? Why a special interest group of course! How dare those nerdy modellers have their own private playground when *insert percieved minority interest* has been so criminally been ignored?!

While many of us may argue (some of us vehimently) this is an undesired or ill advised aproach, unfortunately in the end we all must play by the admin's rules. A Scale Auto style of superdivided forum may be an eventual inevitability.

This is starting to wear thin. Why does adding an handful of subforums always cause the same people to trot out the same comparison to Scale Auto. You want to see a really subdivided forum check out SRC, they must have close to 50. I agree unnecessary division is unproductive, but that doesn't mean all of it is.

If AF wants to divide, all it takes is someone to say "hey, we need a Winnebago section!", and even if the other dozen Winnebago fans vocally object and state that they like the forum as it is, eventually that Winnebago section may appear. Meanwhile, those of us who like our Winnebagos mixed in with our Hondas and Porsches are left to enjoy AF as best we can, until what we've always enjoyed about this forum gets subdivided out of existance.

I'm sure you are just being flippant above. Here is an exercise. Go and count the number of subforums on AF. Then count the number of members. Then count the number of new members joining everyday. Then figure out how important you are in the grand scheme of things. Not much you think? Wrong. Every member is just as important as any other and just as entitled to request a Winnebago section if they so desire. If it works for that person and his handful of buddies is it right for you to deny them that pleasure?

But I would like to insert a desperate plea now- Please don't divide off Ferraris and Nissans (or anything else)! I don't care if I'm a second class citizen because AF doesn't yet have a subdivision to conveniently pigeon hole me into- I'll cope with the injustice, I promise. Haven't we already had enough change for a year?

I hope you are using the second class citizen line in jest because I am yet to hear any convincing argument that such a class exits in here. To be brutally honest all I see at the moment is people too lazy to check all the forums and too miserable to recognise the differences in others.

Precisely, even though we're labeled "political" because we even dare mention this fact. Any forum that is intended to please a small majority over the large always ends up with a lot of controversy as it changes. As this one attempts to please the subdividers, it's started a whole new phase of A/F where it was once peaceful it's now embroiled in turmoil. Totally unnecesary IMHO, but since it's not my website my opinion matters not at all.
Of course you opinion matters but it is only one voice in a very large chorus. It would help though, if statements like "intended to please a small majority over the large" were backed up with some substance. How exactly is the majority being disadvantaged? The way I see it there is a small minority making a fuss while the majority continue on pretty much as was. Of course I am always happy to appease that small minority by responding to their arguments. :)

AF has had many moments of turmoil in the past. Maybe you are lucky or weren't sufficiently interested in past controversies to notice.

From where I sit the political thing is definitely valid with respect to the ScaleAuto argument.

This is turning into a word game now. I am going to back Phil up as he seems to be taking a lot of the heat for the change. Automotive Forums has a creed to create more forums to help better suit the wants or needs of its members, this is done whether or not their is a lot of traffic per forum. Whether or not it is needed, it can help pinpoint problems with vehicles and so forth to find a better solution.

While the modeling forum is different, we follow the same creed. It helps users find exactly what they are looking for. This forum is one of the largest parts of AF, therefore subforums have been added.

I can already imagine how literal this is going to be taken, and I know somebody is going to say "Why dont you add a Yugo subforum in case somebody wants to build a Yugo?". If this forum expands so large that there could be a just means for having a Yugo forum, we might do so.

This is really starting to get rediculous now. Either way, we [the moderators/administrators] are the bad guys. We can't please everybody, we do our best to please a lot though.

I can expect a comment coming saying "Look through this thread and see all the resistance you are getting". Though, this follows a theory of journalism; no news is good news. People will always voice there opinions more if its something negative than something positive. How many people do you hear saying how great the split is versus how bad it is? Or how about the good qualities of testors versus the bad qualities? You dont hear very much of the good.

So guys, lets look a little more optimistic. Together we are all model builders, a little change cant have this great of an effect on our personalities to share with the modeling community. We share our builds with the community to help others learn our techniques, enjoy our models, and become inspired to build there own. We all are a great group of guys and gals, I cant believe something as trivial as subforums would tear our community apart. I though there was more to all of you than that.

I call BS on the "political" comment; I wasn't commenting on their heavy-handed policing of the board which also pisses me off, my comments were simply about the massive number of subdivisions that they set up from the beginning, and are unwilling to waiver on even when it comes to some simple terminology.

My beef with A/F is that I loved the simplicity, and that aspect of it is being done away with (adding any more clicks/links is opposite to my desire for keeping things simple). I also know of boards that are too simple and need more features (Hobby Heaven...what a mess that joint is and it used to be so much fun), but you had just the right combination before you started subdividing into special interest areas beyond motorsports and street. You start subdividing too much and you end up with a ridiculously IPMS-esque level where you start dividing up by scale, subject, timeframe in history, and beyond. Just where does it end? 1/20th scale WWII Eastern Hemisphere Winnebago's? :icon16:

Again, if A/F had one simple feature to view only threads in the car modeling forum (not the entire A/F forum) that are new and/or have new posts within them, it wouldn't matter to me if you had a hundred subdivisions. Then we'd simply get a page of easy-to-navigate items to choose from, regardless of area of interest. That way I miss nothing in any forum and I don't have to visit the sub-forums.

With all the subdivisions it's like going to a car show where every subject is behind closed doors, separated by walls and a door. I can imagine how going to a car show would be if every subject were in a different room. Imagine how much you would miss because you couldn't get a good overview of everything.

Sounds like the creation of a couple of subforums forums is being viewed as the thin end of the wedge that will lead to the adoption of the whole Scale Auto ideology. Of course it is political because several members like youself abondoned ScaleAuto and are now imposing your shellshocked belief system upon AF based on what happened there. Could well become a self fulfilling prophesy if we keep bickering.

Thanks for the backup Mike.

P.S. AF does have the facility to check only new threads. Trouble is it covers the whole of AF and I'm guessing you guys are not that communally minded. :)

This'll pass eventually. It's not, in my opinion, that big of a deal. Sure, I'm not a superfan of the super breakdown (I'm still in with voyageuer's original suggestion), but this isn't bad at all. I can look around just fine here.

The only real issue I have is that if I take up a musclecar or a motorsport or something, my buddies from the street section may not see it. Oh well.

But whatever. I still like AF. I still like the people, the builds, and the help this place has. Subdivisions aren't going to run me off or get me too upset.

Sure Phil seems to be taking alot of heat- it turns out that he almost alone of the mods/admins has had the ill sense to stoop to the level of us, the great unwashed masses, to talk with us. If he almost alone represents the mods/admins, then any frustration from these new changes (and there's obviously been plenty) will get heaped on him. I actually respect Phil alot for taking part in this conversation. In the last week since the Muscle forum was sprung upon us, he has at least attempted to give the impression that he's interested in what we the users might think or want.


Either way, we [the moderators/administrators] are the bad guys. We can't please everybody, we do our best to please a lot though.
If AF's creed really is to serve the needs of its members, why not find out how its members would most like to be served, instead of arbitrarily creating new subforums and assuming everyone should be happy with that? The events of this past week give the strong impression that changes here are made not because of the community's desire, but in spite of it. The modeling forum of AF has been fortunate enough to have a large base of users who care about and are genuinely interested in the forum. Intead of arbitrarily tampering with it, doesn't it make sense to first figure out what the community wants?

I'd say that much of the frustration created here is not due to the changes themselves, but due to the way in which they were made. If we the users feel disregarded in the change process, then yes you the mods and admins will be the bad guys. Obviously, you cannot please everyone- but you'll do a much much better looking after the needs of the community if you actually consult with that community.

Sure, I'm unhappy about the additions of more subforums. I happen to think that it's not a good way to go. But I'm even more unhappy about being shut out of the decision process- and I venture a guess that I'm not alone.


We all are a great group of guys and gals, I cant believe something as trivial as subforums would tear our community apart. I though there was more to all of you than that.
It's not the subforums that threaten to tear the community apart- it's the disregard for the users.

I don't think I need to defend my position, but I will at least offer you an explanation of where I stand on this whole matter.

I don't personally care if the forums are in the 'old' format or the 'new' format, it doesn't effect me or how I browse the forums - I still go into the sections I want to and read the threads that interest me. My job requires me to sit at a PC 50% of my time and if I were to log every click of my mouse, I probably make thousands per day, a few more ain't going to strain any muscles ;)

From a moderating standpoint, it doesn't bother me either. I have been arguing both sides of the coin in the Mod's corner though as to me both sides have valid arguments.

If it comes to a specific vote, I'll vote, but a thread like this that's just one big back-and-forth argument with some bitching in between, I'm staying out of.
I have enough stress in my everyday job without fighting over how I look at everyone's models - as long as I get to come here and see some well built models I'm happy.

Coming in today, I started reading this thread on page one, but halfway on page two, I skipped it and went straigth to the end. I think the request was to voice ones opinion, so I'll do just that, and won't comment on all the other opinions. Afterall, if mods ask for opinions, it's up to them to decide once they've heard the lot. ;)

When more structure was brought to the modeling forums, as it looks now, that was the right direction, as more people have found their ways to AF. The big advantage of this structure is that you can browse now by the category that interests you. Creating a subsection for "completed" models where all subject categories will live together is a step backwards in my opinion, as you will start to mix categories again. It probably is a good idea for all of you who come here on a daily basis, but it is a real burden for people like me who come only once or twice a week. If I need to go through a subforum again and have to start searching for the motorsports topics, I won't probably bother anymore after a while.

If you put a structure in place, make sure you can develop it forwards, meaning, more in detail and not backwards. Categorizing was forwards. Throwing finished models all in one pile again is backwards.

just my :2cents:

I agree completely! You can add all the sub-forums you want. That part doesnt bother me a bit. Its the fact that the completed models are all getting clumped together in one forum that i dont like. It makes the purpose of having all these sub-forums redundent and pointless. Phil you keep saying that there arent that many completes so it doesnt matter. I dont think it matters how many completes there are, I still have to scroll through a bunch of other crap to find complete motorsports. I think it should be up to the builder where his completed post goes, otherwise for now on all my completes will be titled "99.9% Complete". I have little enough time to look around online much less now having to look through multiple forums were before i simply looked at one. If a few motorsport builders feel they arent getting there stuff seen as much as the street builders then they can post were ever but i think most of us Motorsport builders were really happy having or own little exclusive space on the web. Now our completed posts are going to be flogged with questions from viewers that dont know anything about or builds. I liked the fact that the Motorsport forum was full of knowledgable and seasoned builders. Now its all thrown out the window so your egos can be padded with more post views in this "general" completed forum. Not happy at all but it will be great for the subcription rate over at GPMA were im now more likely to visit.

That's a pretty crappy attitude, Chad. I think your disregarding a lot of the skill in the non-motorsport sections. Motorsport modeling is different than other types, not necessarily better. That you're worried that people will ask you questions that you feel above answering makes me wonder why you share your builds at all?

Its the fact that the completed models are all getting clumped together in one forum that i dont like. It makes the purpose of having all these sub-forums redundent and pointless.

:iagree:

Again, if A/F had one simple feature to view only threads in the car modeling forum (not the entire A/F forum) that are new and/or have new posts within them, it wouldn't matter to me if you had a hundred subdivisions. Then we'd simply get a page of easy-to-navigate items to choose from, regardless of area of interest. That way I miss nothing in any forum and I don't have to visit the sub-forums.
Ready to make a new bookmark? :)

View New Car Modeling Posts (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927,1786,1254,1752,1157,1253)

At the end of the URL string are six numbers, which restrict the new post search to our forums. You can trim some out if, say, you wanted to see Top Level, Motorsports, Completed.

The numbers are, for your reference:

927 - Car Modeling
1786 - WIP - Motorbikes
1254 - WIP - Motorsports
1752 - WIP - Muscle Car / Hot Rod
1157 - WIP - Street
1253 - Completed Projects / Gallery

My biggest concern is the discrimination against the majority of AF modeling members, who happen too be Nissan and Ferrari enthusiasts. They've been treated like second class members, while a small group of sub-forum visitors get their safe haven.

I have no idea why this kind of discrimination is acceptable. As an avid motorsports modeler, I deeply feel sorry for the rest of the members.Discrimination? I don't see how its discriminatory. Second Class Members? So if I had created instead, a Nissan and Ferrari subsections, that group would be happy, (others will not) Still I get the feeling others will object since there will always be someone that goes against an idea or an organizational structure, regardless of whats implemented or not.

it is appearently AF's policy to divide into as many subforums as necessary to to please whatever special interest subsects may or may not exist. .....
A Scale Auto style of superdivided forum may be an eventual inevitability. If AF wants to divide, all it takes is someone to say "hey, we need a Winnebago section!",
Again with Scale Auto. It amazes me how taking a forum that had 3 original subsections and adding two more for a total of 5 is being compared with Scale Auto which has a total of 14 forum, (9 Modeling Forums, 1 Community Build forum, 3 Tip and Technique forums, and 1 scale forum). As for the special interest comment, if it wasn't for special interests, AF would not be the community it is today. Its not a matter of if AF wants to divide, its that it has too. When AF was created it had all but just a handfull of forums. Eventually someone asked for a section to be created, and thus the place got bigger and bigger (and more organized I might add). Eventually someone asked for a Car modeling section and it was created. By your reasoning, it should just be one big enormous forum with no sections so that others would not have to go to the trouble of seeing subsections. The subsections in question were added because the members had originally requested it long ago, the moderators have made a note of it, and I got around to it and made it happen. Now all the prior reasons for going against it are not really good reasons at all. ("I'm too lazy to click on the mouse to see another section", "Oh it looks like Scale Auto", etc).
I could have easily put all the topics into just one forum with no subsections at all and that way, the members won't have to look at more sections, or strain themselves by moving their finger a few millimeters to get to another section. But by doing that the Car Modeling section goes against the structure of AF. Last I checked Car Modeling is part of AF not a separate entity. I am a firm believer of having things organized which is how AF has been structured all along. Car Modeling and its subsections are part of AF and AF will continue to expand and grow in its members, and sections.

But I would like to insert a desperate plea now- Please don't divide off Ferraris and Nissans (or anything else)! I don't care if I'm a second class citizen because AF doesn't yet have a subdivision to conveniently pigeon hole me into- I'll cope with the injustice, I promise. Haven't we already had enough change for a year?Again with the second class reference and "injustice", where does that fall into play?

My beef with A/F is that I loved the simplicity, and that aspect of it is being done away with (adding any more clicks/links is opposite to my desire for keeping things simple). I also know of boards that are too simple and need more features (Hobby Heaven...what a mess that joint is and it used to be so much fun), but you had just the right combination before you started subdividing into special interest areas beyond motorsports and street. You start subdividing too much and you end up with a ridiculously IPMS-esque level where you start dividing up by scale, subject, timeframe in history, and beyond. Just where does it end? 1/20th scale WWII Eastern Hemisphere Winnebago's? :icon16:

Again, if A/F had one simple feature to view only threads in the car modeling forum (not the entire A/F forum) that are new and/or have new posts within them, it wouldn't matter to me if you had a hundred subdivisions. Then we'd simply get a page of easy-to-navigate items to choose from, regardless of area of interest. That way I miss nothing in any forum and I don't have to visit the sub-forums. On one hand you say, to keep it simple and on the other you say that some places need more and yet adding 2 more subsections is causing such a disturbance. Imagine when I start working on the rest of AF that needs updating. As for the 1/20th comment. Look at hirofkd website and you tell me that is not well done. Easy to navigate and separated to pinpoint exactly what one is looking for.

Now as for the suggestion of getting new posts, AF does have that in place. But apparently some just don't know how to do it. (Or in the case of the ones that have complained its too much of a hassle to click their mouse to get to other sections) too much work to set it up. :disappoin

Therefore...

On the forums section thread listing, there is a option labeled Forum Tools..

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/504/42867ForumTools-med.jpg

Selecting it will bring down the options, one of which is labeled "Subscribe to this Forum".

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/504/42867ForumTools2-med.jpg

Upon choosing that selection, the window refreshes, showing you the type of notification you want.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/504/42867ForumTools3-med.jpg

You can either have daily notification or weekly notifications of new posts sent to your email. You get the email and select from that email which ones you want to view.

After making your choice, the screen refreshes taking you to your User Options Subscriptions page indicating all your subscribed posts/threads.

http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/504/42867ForumTools4-med.jpg

Now some might say thats to much work and so on and so on, but at least its a partial solution. In the mean time you can also get just new posts for each section by putting the following in your web browser.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include= at the end of that enter the section you only want to search in.

for example
ID # Section name
927 = Car Modeling (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927

1786 = WIP - Motorbikes (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1786)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1786

1254 = WIP - MotorSports (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1254)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1254

1752 = WIP - Muscle Car /Hot Rod (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1752)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1752

1157 = WIP - Street (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1157)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1157

1253 = Completed Projects / Gallery (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1253)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1253

927 = Car Modeling (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927

If you want to just view all the new WIP projects threads since your last visit. Enter the following in your web browser.

All WIP only (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1786,1254,1752,1157)
Spelled out: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=1786,1254,1752,1157

I will see if I can get this option to be included in the drop down box, but in the mean time the members can bookmark the above links to make it easier to view only new threads in the sections they want.

Now going back to the issue at large,
1-if anyone is to blame for the changes taking place this past week in the Car modeling section, it is not Rally, it is not Freakray, is is not any of the moderators but me. I saw the request that was posted long ago, and in accordance with AF Policy and the ongoing expansion of AF and its sections, the sections were created. If anyone has a beef to make, make it with me, not the mods.
2-Read what it says in my sig, its been there since day one (actually after day 67 since joining AF), and it still holds true. Member are welcome to ask for things. Once a request is made (usually by the member I might add), it gets debated and if approved, gets place in holding until one of the admins can get to it. Now since the request was made by a member or members, it would be a waste of time to repost that a change is about to be implemented. True, in this case the request was made a year ago as all the other requests throughout AF, but it is now that a admin will take the time to implement these changes. If it is deemed that the newly created subsections do not serve the purpose for which they were created then I would gladly remove them, but to shot it down so quickly without giving it a chance to see if it works out is beyond me.

So for now they stay.

TS

Ready to make a new bookmark? :)

View New Car Modeling Posts (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/search.php?do=getnew&include=927,1786,1254,1752,1157,1253)

At the end of the URL string are six numbers, which restrict the new post search to our forums. You can trim some out if, say, you wanted to see Top Level, Motorsports, Completed.

The numbers are, for your reference:

927 - Car Modeling
1786 - WIP - Motorbikes
1254 - WIP - Motorsports
1752 - WIP - Muscle Car / Hot Rod
1157 - WIP - Street
1253 - Completed Projects / Gallery

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! :sunglasse

You get a whole year's worth of gold stars for that trick :icon16:

Most useful thing I've seen here in a long time! This particular link should be stickied.

Thanks. Seriously, that's exactly what I needed. No more bitching from me :icon16:

what difference is there between clicking on a completed link that has all of the completed threads at a higher level and clicking on a competed link within the respective motorsport/road threads?

way i see it, the only difference is where the link is.

one thing that doesn't quite gel with me, is that I think the completed for motorsport and road should remain separate and i say this purely from a format point of view. I think and this is purely my own opinion, that it makes more sense to relate the completed threads to the respective catagory.

The latest AF modelling development (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1797)

Sorry, but what do we need an extra motorcycle modeling forum and a motorcycle subforum in the automotive section for?
Do posts automatically appear in both forums? :sly:

Sorry, but what do we need an extra motorcycle modeling forum and a motorcycle subforum in the automotive section for?
Do posts automatically appear in both forums? :sly:

The subsection under modeling links to the motorcycle forum here. Just try it out and you will understand. Its the same forum regardless.

The latest AF modelling development (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1797)

HA!

HA!

a joke indeed...

...

Now going back to the issue at large,
1-if anyone is to blame for the changes taking place this past week in the Car modeling section, it is not Rally, it is not Freakray, is is not any of the moderators but me. I saw the request that was posted long ago, and in accordance with AF Policy and the ongoing expansion of AF and its sections, the sections were created. If anyone has a beef to make, make it with me, not the mods.

2-Read what it says in my sig, its been there since day one (actually after day 67 since joining AF), and it still holds true. Member are welcome to ask for things. Once a request is made (usually by the member I might add), it gets debated and if approved, gets place in holding until one of the admins can get to it. Now since the request was made by a member or members, it would be a waste of time to repost that a change is about to be implemented. True, in this case the request was made a year ago as all the other requests throughout AF, but it is now that a admin will take the time to implement these changes. If it is deemed that the newly created subsections do not serve the purpose for which they were created then I would gladly remove them, but to shot it down so quickly without giving it a chance to see if it works out is beyond me.

So for now they stay.

TS

Hmm, in a year AF doesn't grow that much, that the, at the time valid request, may have become unnecessary or maybe wanted, but in an altered or modified way?

Good that they stay, but I won't spend my time digging once a week through a subforum that contains all model categories again. Too bad and certainly a missed chance. Oh well, other and better. ;)

hi guys,

my initial idea from the other thread (some of you are referring to) was to have a completed section that covers ALL subjects (street, motorsports, etc...) for a simple reason: I DON'T miss out on stunning builds anymore because I DON'T visit all subcategories.

Easy to understand, isn't it?

Having the completed section again split in categories would just make it useless (for me) because I'd again MISS OUT on great builds posted elsewhere.

I'm happy with it the way it is now...I don't need to go to muscle/motorsports/bikes/etc...but still find the completed builds in the completed forum (from where I can go to the WIP thread if I wish, by just clicking on the link)

Thank you again for creating it!

Cheers SEB

Ok, so because I'm open minded enough etc. to test new things also, I had a go this evening in the "Completed" subforum.

Out of the 10 threads I went through (and not all were motorsports :D ), only one, that's 1, contained an actual link to it's WIP-thread - the Barry Sheen bike. As far as comments are concerned, the number of ah's, oh's, oh so shiny's etc. are uncountable.

So far for a good effort. Not worth my time. Sorry chaps.

hi guys,

my initial idea from the other thread (some of you are referring to) was to have a completed section that covers ALL subjects (street, motorsports, etc...) for a simple reason: I DON'T miss out on stunning builds anymore because I DON'T visit all subcategories.

Easy to understand, isn't it?

Having the completed section again split in categories would just make it useless (for me) because I'd again MISS OUT on great builds posted elsewhere.

I'm happy with it the way it is now...I don't need to go to muscle/motorsports/bikes/etc...but still find the completed builds in the completed forum (from where I can go to the WIP thread if I wish, by just clicking on the link)

Thank you again for creating it!

Cheers SEB


Im glad your pleased Seb, now for the other 3897 users, can you please put the completed Motorsports back in the Motorsport section?

Im glad your pleased Seb, now for the other 3897 users, can you please put the completed Motorsports back in the Motorsport section?

Nope, hafta disagree. The sentiment seems to be alot more popular to leave it where it is. There are some strong arguments to keep it combined. I think there has been enough turmoil do to changes lately, and it probably is time to give the new format a change and see how the entire community likes it before tampering with anything else.

Also, it was never said that there would be a direct correlation between in progress threads and completed posts. Some builders will post both with links to each, and some won't. That's how it's always been.

Out of the 10 threads I went through (and not all were motorsports :D ), only one, that's 1, contained an actual link to it's WIP-thread - the Barry Sheen bike.

how is that forums' format's fault?
previously, some members would include a link in their completed threads to the progress thread, some didn't.
i guess this new format would just mean that you should make this simple thing part of the process of posting a completed thread (assuming that there is a progress thread in the first place).


As far as comments are concerned, the number of ah's, oh's, oh so shiny's etc. are uncountable.

again, how is this the fault of the forums' format?
i would also have thought that common sense would dictate that most of the photos that the owner of the model wants you to see would be at the start of the thread.
you don't need to read the posts to follow.
personally, i hardly ever read comments when i can see it isn't more than five words.
most of the time, in a COMPLETED thread, I'm more interested in the PHOTOS.

At some stage I plan to put together a guide in the Completed/Gallery section suggesting useful things like links between threads. I haven't the time to do it this week, hopefully next. Of course if somebody else has the time to compose a suitable burst that would be most welcome. :)

how is that forums' format's fault?
previously, some members would include a link in their completed threads to the progress thread, some didn't.
i guess this new format would just mean that you should make this simple thing part of the process of posting a completed thread (assuming that there is a progress thread in the first place).


again, how is this the fault of the forums' format?
i would also have thought that common sense would dictate that most of the photos that the owner of the model wants you to see would be at the start of the thread.
you don't need to read the posts to follow.
personally, i hardly ever read comments when i can see it isn't more than five words.
most of the time, in a COMPLETED thread, I'm more interested in the PHOTOS.

where did I say it was the forums format fault?? I was just commenting on voyageurs comment saying "but still find the completed builds in the completed forum (from where I can go to the WIP thread if I wish, by just clicking on the link)"

The implemented changes do give me a bad user experience the way it is now. Phil will need to write guidelines for the use of a new category? Yet another policy you as moderators will have to govern. Some people will do other won't. I prefer to have a more natural flow on forums without having to come with guidelines to make it 'artificially' work.

;)

ps. as a mod, aren't you supposed to verify the content :evillol: ;)

not my area.

don't take it the wrong way, i wasn't having a go at you, only addressing the simple fact that the format is a relatively dead thing and does not and can not actually be good or bad.

right, so the completed gallery is now a separate (and integrated) forum that is away from the wip forums. And?
before, people would post a wip thread and somewhere down the line, they might post a completed thread with link.
that means you would follow a wip thread until the builder has completed when he would make a completed thread and link to it from the wip thread,
or you'd first see the completed thread with an appropriate link back to the wip thread.

and in this format?
nothing has changed apart from where the threads are placed.

also, due the nature simple fact that more people start a build than finish a build, if you are a member who visits once a week, then chances are that completed thread is bumped off the page already in the old single forum format.

i'm still of the mind that this will only help organising the forums in the grand scheme of things.

is a format needed to amke it "work".
not really.
as it was pointed out before by MPWR, it was something that some members did anyway.
in anycase, is adding ONE link to your thread that difficult a job, much the same as , is clicking one extra link that difficult a job?