hard shift when hot

so i think i know the problem. quite some time ago, i changed the filter and fluid. the pan was covered in sludge, it was pretty horrible but no major metal shavings or anything. it just looked like the fluid was never changed. so after i did that i noticed it started to shift hard. i stop check fluid, a little low and i fill it up. well then it felt fine, till it hit its operating temperature and started acting up again. well then we went and had it flushed, did wonders till city driving. it took a while, but it acted up again. once it cooled down it was fine till it passed the half mark on temperature. it has some kind of additive which has helped more but still once it breaks half way and up to fan kicking in it shift hard.

my feeling is the torque converter has gone bad. i dont think im going to be able to get in there and pull it out anytime soon. my thought is to install a b&m trans cooler w/fan and thermostat which kicks in at 160 degrees. i think this will greatly help out, and help the engine coolant from heating up so quick. the transaxle is causing engine temp to jump fairly quick, so i know theres an issue with it.

so i want more input, maybe some of you had a similar problem. im thinking its the converter but im not certain, maybe valve body. but i do know i was riding in a camaro 3.8 and it acted pretty much the same and my boss even said it was the torque converter. and yeah i know its has a transmission/rear wheel drive, but thought maybe it was carrying the same converter.

This is my post from another forum:

I think that shift valve is sticking in your case. Get out the owner's manual and use the correct procedure to check your tranny fluid. LubeGuard may help to loosen up that tranny shift valve. Fixing the tranny valve DIY may make sense for you = really not that hard to do.


try buying a pint of "lube guard" for that tranny and see if the tranny solenoid (sometimes called tranny valve) starts to free up and shift better. That new tranny should still be under warranty.

Lube Guard or nothing at all.

Always take the tranny pan off when changing your tranny fluid, never go with tranny flushes. Clean all the mudd off the bottom of the tranny pan and put a new filter in also.

Look thru the owners manual for the correct procedure to check your tranny fluid height. Check this height yourself following the procedure and if adding Lube-Guard take a pint out before adding the Lube-Guard.

http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/d...07-30-013e.pdf (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/tsb/data/02-07-30-013e.pdf) read the prior TSB also.

Your cheapest fix is most likely the Lube Guard. If you haven't changed your tranny fluid yet -- Do it!!! --And then add the Lube Guard. Lube Guard will help unstick that valve.

yeah ive checked the fluid several times. its full now. changed filter, cleaned pan and magnet, filled it, then had it flushed. im down to the point that i might go and get a new valve body stick on it. it will be easy enough, and if it doesnt fix it well then there was a waste!

im kind of inbetween on the problem. since it does only happen when the temp reaches 200-220, im just kind of stuck. i was taking that it would be the torque converter, since my knowledge and others, have come up with the trans is heating up fast making coolant heat up and most likely cause is a torque converter acting up and overheating.

What do you mean by 'shifts hard'? harsh upshift between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th, all gears? I think maybe I would have an experienced GM trans guy drive it - he may know immediately! I would suspect the PCS solenoid so far. A torque converter shouldn't have anything to do with shifting.

ok, on upshifts, it slams into the next gear, 2nd to 3rd is probably the worst of all. if you are under hard throttle, the shift is a bit smoother. if your taking it easy, it slams into gear. you can feel and hear the shift, its a pretty good clunk. it only happens when city driving and temperature breaks past half way. from what i was told, it could be torque converter lock up.

it was driven by a gm tech, he said he didnt feel anything, i told him to drive city and let the fan kick in, he said yeah nothing happened. he had no idea what was wrong. if you cant feel the shift it makes at that certain point, you have no feeling at all! when cold, or temp is down, it shifts like it should so smooth you couldnt tell.

now i just found something on the net for the 4t60e (that is the trans right?) about something up with torque converter lock up being some kind of issue. ok but after reading more, im kind of leaning to maybe something up in valve body. just my :2cents: once again

It's too bad that this trans guy is not cooperating with you. It sounds like he didn't drive the car long enough or is trying to blow you off. (Or maybe he lacks experience and doesn't really know).

It still sounds like a PCS solenoid that may be going bad. Or possible accumulator valves/valve body. It could be hard to diagnose. Can you have someone check for transmission codes? I would think if the torque converter clutch (TCC) is acting up it would stay engaged and cause stalling when you come to a stop. I wish you could come to Rockford and have my trans guy look at it, he does these things all day/every day.

Once again, a good trans guy may be able to save you some bucks by pinpointing the problem right away. Good luck finding one. Maybe you need to have the car fully warmed up and drive with the tech until the problem shows up.

yeah i wish i knew more into auto trans. ive rebuilt a manual, but autos i just dont like. i wish i would have made it into wyotech, but i havent followed through.

i do know a saturn trans tech, know he pretty well, so maybe i could get him to help out. but after hearing other cases envolving valves having issues, and most fall in about the same mileage as when this one started, im kind of leaning to the valve body still. ive found there are new valves that can be installed, but you have to drill and port for a bigger valve or something.

this problem steadily got worse and worse (you could barely start to feel it shifting), so thats why i went with a fluid and filter change, which then brought out the issue even worse. i knew back when i started feeling it shift, that it wasnt right because these trans are suppose to super smooth and just glide through the gears.

thanks for the help, hopefully i can take care of this before it becomes an overhaul situation, because i know due to the shifting, its ruined the upper torque mounts. i just hope it doesnt start tearing up other things.

In the 4T60-E there is a PWM solenoid that controls how hard the shifts are, it does this by sort of "cushioning" the speed at which the fluid applies the bands. It is possible that the heat is affecting this solenoid and causing it to malfunction. The torque converter may have a part in this, it may be causing the tranny to reach higher temps or just get hotter faster; but that is unlikely. In my opinion it is not likely to be a valve body problem, especially if you found no metal shavings in the pan. If a valve were sticking, such as the throttle valve, it would most likely not shift into a certain gear at all.

So you are thinking about wyotech, I recomend it. I finished the auto core classes and am now in chassis fab, soon to be in street rod. In drivetrain, you actually tear down and rebuild a 4T60-E as a competency, among other things of course. I learned a lot of good stuff out here.

My 2001 is having the same problem. First time it happened, we had the TCC selenoid replaced, and that fixed it for a while. Then it started happening agqain about a year later. So I think we got they did something else with the torque converter clutch, but I can't remember exactly what. Again, it fixed it temporarily. This time, I brought it to a serious GM guy, and he said he thinks the valve body is stuck. I seriously don't have the money to get it fixed, or get a new tranny in it. Can a wannabe weekend mechanic such as myself pull out the valve body and do work on it? Does the chilton's manual cary info on that? Or is it serious work? I'd love to be able to do it myself, and I'm adventerous enough to try, unless, I think I might ruin something.

I would have the car scanned and see if there are any trans codes that have been stored first before disassembly. I believe it can be a substantial amount of work to get the valve body off. It's on the driver's side of the transmission and sits vertically under the pan. Also a logical guess would be the Pressure Control Solenoid Valve assembly - this can be affected by heat and affect shifting.

I was a dealer VW/Audi tech for many years, and after reading the side pan removal procedure in my GM factory manual I don't think I'd want to do this job at home. Maybe there are shortcuts, though?? How about it Panzer? Does AllData have a transmission side cover removal procedure? Has anyone pulled the side cover and/or valve body off at home? Good luck and keep us posted on what finally fixes this car.

I would change the tranny fluid and/or try the lubeguard first.

AllDataDIY is $24 for the year and has good info.

There are 2 shift solenoids 1-2, 3-4 (OD) and 2-3.

case cover removal:

Disconnect the battery ground (negative) cable. Refer to Battery Negative Cable Disconnect/Connect Procedure in Starting and Charging.
Remove the throttle body air inlet duct. Refer to Air Cleaner Intake Duct Replacement in Powertrain Management.
Install the engine support fixture. Refer to Engine Support Fixture.
Remove the engine mount strut. Refer to Engine Mount Strut Replacement in Engine.
Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Vehicle Lifting.
Remove the left front wheel. Refer to Tire and Wheel Removal and Installation in Steering and Suspension.
Remove the left engine splash shield. Refer to Splash Shield Replacement - Engine in Body and Frame.
Remove the stabilizer shaft links from the lower control arms. Refer to Stabilizer Shaft Link Replacement in Steering and Suspension.
Remove the left tie rod end from the steering knuckle. Refer to Steering Knuckle Replacement in Steering and Suspension.
Remove the wheel speed sensor harness connector. Refer Wheel Speed Sensor Jumper Harness Replacement (Front) in Brakes and Traction Control.
Remove the left lower ball joint from the left steering knuckle. Refer to Steering Knuckle Replacement in Steering and Suspension.
Disconnect the left drive axle from the transaxle. Refer to Wheel Drive Shafts Replacement (Left) or Wheel Drive Shafts Replacement (Right).
Secure the drive axle to the steering knuckle/strut. Caution: Failure to disconnect the intermediate shaft from the rack and pinion stub shaft can result in damage to the steering gear and/or damage to the intermediate shaft. This damage may cause loss of steering control which could result in personal injury.
Remove the pinch bolt at the intermediate steering shaft. Refer to intermediate Steering Shaft Replacement in Steering and Suspension.
Remove the intermediate shaft from the steering gear. Refer to Intermediate Steering Shaft Replacement in Steering and Suspension.
Disconnect the three-way catalytic converter pipe to the right (rear) exhaust manifold. Refer to Catalytic Converter Replacement in Powertrain Management.
Support the right side of the frame with jackstands.
Support the left side of the frame with jackstands.
Remove the transaxle mount bracket. Refer to Automatic Transmission Mount Bracket Replacement.
Remove the transaxle mount. Refer to Automatic Transmission Mount Replacement.
Loosen the engine mount lower nuts. Refer to Engine Mount Replacement (Front) and Engine Mount Replacement (Rear) in Engine.
Loosen the right side frame to body bolts. Refer to Frame Repair in Frame and Underbody.
Remove the left side frame to body bolts. Refer to Frame Repair in Frame and Underbody.
Adjust the jackstand to the lower left side of the frame.
Position the drain pan under the transaxle.
Remove the wiring harness connector.
Remove the case side cover bolts (56-58).

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e277/liquid100percent/86424509.gif

This may take a whole weekend or two. I would do my research first with a manual/alldatadiy. Give lubeguard and good tranny fluid a try first = these shift solenoids are sticking due to dirty tranny fluid. If it's your only car I would maybe have a shop do the repair if that side cover needs to come off = it's a lot of work/frustration if you do it wrong and need to do it again.

here's a good example for you:

I ripped open the right rear door today because it was not locking. (open and shut, but (surprise) no locking and the inside lock mechanism was jammed hard. AllDataDiy showed little about this. I looked at it, looked at AllDataDIY and still could not figure it out. I pull the three torx bolts from the lock and remove the handle rod fastener = the whole thing just comes out easy, but it took me 2 hours to look into it.

The solenoid (magnetic lever/switch) was jammed, I take the solenoid part off (2 parts: solenoid and all the lock crap) and try it out = now it works. I put the solenoid part on = lock now works fine. Put the lock back in = works fine. Eventually put the trim back on the door, but thought i may want to keep the trim off until I try it out for a few days.

A few hours later I noticed that now it is not locking correctly again. Better than before, but sometimes it won't lock. Eventually it does lock after cycling on/off a few times, but not all the time.

With the door it's not so bad because I can probably get the lock out in 10 minutes now. With a tranny you are looking at a weekend of work and the car is undriveable.

Thanks guys. Sounds like doing the work myself is way above my tech level, and takes much more time than I have. I'm going to try the lube guard and tranny flush first. But I think that may just be temporary. Probably gonna have to have the shop fix it. Yes, there are codes associated with it, I've pulled them a couple times. They indicate that the TCC solenoid is stuck, but the GM guy I got looking at it thinks it's the valve body. Anyway, I'll let you know what happens!
Thanks.

the case side cover does need to come off to get to those solenoids. (I was unsure)

from Alldata: (replacing the shift solenoid)

Remove the case side cover (see above). Refer to Case Side Cover Replacement.
Disconnect the transaxle wiring harness.
Remove the 1-2 shift solenoid (315A).

Do you have a SES light on? Removing the side cover is a lot of work. Take some time get it diagnosed at a shop. You could spend a lot of cash replacing parts a valve body is $400 alone. What year, mileage is your car.

Do you have a SES light on? Removing the side cover is a lot of work. Take some time get it diagnosed at a shop. You could spend a lot of cash replacing parts a valve body is $400 alone. What year, mileage is your car.

About time you weighed-in GM Tranny Advisor. Update from his other thread he had a full flush performed at the dealer.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=602577

Thanks Troy.

Do you have a SES light on? Removing the side cover is a lot of work. Take some time get it diagnosed at a shop. You could spend a lot of cash replacing parts a valve body is $400 alone. What year, mileage is your car.

Yes, it's been on and off a few times. And I have had it into a shop. It's been properly diagnosed. They honestly can't really tell without pulling the valve body out. My favorite GM guy, (and I trust him very much) suspects that it's the valve body, so I'm probably going to have him do it. I'm not advanced enough to do it. It's a 2001, with 71K miles on it.

I just changed my radiator fluid today and looked at this cover. If your tranny is giving you problems, I would first change the tranny fluid and filter and go with the Lubeguard. If that doesn't help, you may want to have the tranny rebuilt or swap with a GM rebuilt 3yr/100,000 mile warranty tranny.

= I wouldn't want to mess with this cover more than once. =A tight fit. I have seen 4T65e rebuilds on Ebay for ~1100$, I wonder what a GM rebuild costs, but there you have the 3yr/100k mile warranty.

=FWD trannys are a pain in the ass to service and RWD trannys aren't much better.

I just changed my radiator fluid today and looked at this cover. If your tranny is giving you problems, I would first change the tranny fluid and filter and go with the Lubeguard. If that doesn't help, you may want to have the tranny rebuilt or swap with a GM rebuilt 3yr/100,000 mile warranty tranny.

= I wouldn't want to mess with this cover more than once. =A tight fit. I have seen 4T65e rebuilds on Ebay for ~1100$, I wonder what a GM rebuild costs, but there you have the 3yr/100k mile warranty.

=FWD trannys are a pain in the ass to service and RWD trannys aren't much better.

Yeah, I gave up on trying to service it myself. I had my favorite GM guy give it a good tranny flush with some special chemicals (the industrial version of LubeGuard?) Anyway, that really did the trick, she's shifting like butter now, and don't feel any shudder at all. I'm gonna keep up those tranny flushes once a year and keep her running smooth.

I have a 2000 intrigue with 75,000 miles that had the same exact problem. I had the pressure control solenoid and the problem is fixed.I am lucky and have a friend that works at a tranny shop and was willing to do it as a side job at home, he had it done in one day.The solenoid was $54.00 at the dealer but I also had him change the tcc solenoid while he was in there. I was glad to pay him the $300.00 he charged me. The shops wanted between $500.00 - $800.00 to do the job.There is a tsb on this 00-07-30-0025.

Yeah, I gave up on trying to service it myself. I had my favorite GM guy give it a good tranny flush with some special chemicals (the industrial version of LubeGuard?) Anyway, that really did the trick, she's shifting like butter now, and don't feel any shudder at all. I'm gonna keep up those tranny flushes once a year and keep her running smooth.

-You were lucky. Best thing you can do is change those fluids regularly.

For tranny fluid I go with the regular tranny fluid and add the LubeGuard. The tranny filter is cheap to replace also. Since you were having problems with your tranny I would change the tranny fluid+filter again after 5-10-20k miles just to play it safe = get all that gunk out of your tranny.

For the engine it's Mobil 1 synthetic.

I have just changed the tranny fluid and want to try that Trans tune. Will I have to rechange my tranny fluid?

I have just changed the tranny fluid and want to try that Trans tune. Will I have to rechange my tranny fluid?

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