GM Says NO TO ACETONE !!!!! Don't use it
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TonyMazz
11-16-2005, 08:51 AM
Info - Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy #05-00-89-072 - (Oct 24, 2005)
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks
2003-2006 HUMMER H2
2006 HUMMER H3
2005-2006 Saab 9-7X
Please direct this bulletin to the Service Manager, the Service Consultants, and the Sales Staff. A copy of this bulletin is encouraged to be given to your customer as it is written with the consumer in mind. You may also post this bulletin in your customer lounge or waiting area.
A Statement About Fuel Economy
As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuel consumption. GM is presently proud to offer 20 cars in the U.S. with EPA highway estimates of at least 30 mpg. The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.
The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:
• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.
Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.
The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.
Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.
Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.
Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.
Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.
Vehicle Considerations:
• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.
• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.
• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.
• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.
Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.
• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.
• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.
Changes In Driving Habits:
• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.
• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.
• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.
• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks
2003-2006 HUMMER H2
2006 HUMMER H3
2005-2006 Saab 9-7X
Please direct this bulletin to the Service Manager, the Service Consultants, and the Sales Staff. A copy of this bulletin is encouraged to be given to your customer as it is written with the consumer in mind. You may also post this bulletin in your customer lounge or waiting area.
A Statement About Fuel Economy
As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuel consumption. GM is presently proud to offer 20 cars in the U.S. with EPA highway estimates of at least 30 mpg. The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.
The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:
• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.
Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.
The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.
Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.
Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.
Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.
Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.
Vehicle Considerations:
• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.
• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.
• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.
• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.
Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.
• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.
• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.
Changes In Driving Habits:
• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.
• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.
• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.
• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
OverBoardProject
11-16-2005, 12:04 PM
Did it ever ocure to you that GM is in bed with the gas companies?
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
2000blazerls
11-16-2005, 12:15 PM
Did it ever ocure to you that GM is in bed with the gas companies?
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
Yeah!!! Damn the man!
(sorry, empire records was on the other day)
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
Yeah!!! Damn the man!
(sorry, empire records was on the other day)
TonyMazz
11-16-2005, 01:12 PM
Did it ever ocure to you that GM is in bed with the gas companies?
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
All things considered, I don't really give a rip if they are in bed with gas companies...who cares...
At the end of the day, it's you, the dealer and your broken car in for warranty or what ever. Just conveying a reliable source regarding the subject matter, not some speculation or experimentation .
Use or lose just information .....it's recent.....thought some would find it useful.
T
Just like all the other car companies.
That's how they can offer you so many free gallons of fuel at times when buying a new car.
So of course they'll tell you not to use an additve that might get you better fuel economy.
And the other things that they mention only make comon sense, plus people are starting to realize it all now.
All things considered, I don't really give a rip if they are in bed with gas companies...who cares...
At the end of the day, it's you, the dealer and your broken car in for warranty or what ever. Just conveying a reliable source regarding the subject matter, not some speculation or experimentation .
Use or lose just information .....it's recent.....thought some would find it useful.
T
BlazerLT
11-16-2005, 01:19 PM
All things considered, I don't really give a rip if they are in bed with gas companies...who cares...
At the end of the day, it's you, the dealer and your broken car in for warranty or what ever. Just conveying a reliable source regarding the subject matter, not some speculation or experimentation .
Use or lose just information .....it's recent.....thought some would find it useful.
T
Interesting how the first thing they mention is that they have so many models with 30mpg or better.......
Yea, scare them into not using something to help their mileage so people will give up and buy another car.
Either way, I am continuing my use. 2-3mpg is better than listening to them for sure.
At the end of the day, it's you, the dealer and your broken car in for warranty or what ever. Just conveying a reliable source regarding the subject matter, not some speculation or experimentation .
Use or lose just information .....it's recent.....thought some would find it useful.
T
Interesting how the first thing they mention is that they have so many models with 30mpg or better.......
Yea, scare them into not using something to help their mileage so people will give up and buy another car.
Either way, I am continuing my use. 2-3mpg is better than listening to them for sure.
Tangent
11-16-2005, 11:04 PM
This is a pretty obvious case of CYA by GM. They never tested their fuel system components with these chemicals therefore they cannot guarantee that nothing bad will happen. Because of this they have to issue warnings so that if something bad happens to somebody using acetone they can point to this bulletin and say that they warned against it.
I haven't had a chance to use it in my wife's Blazer yet, but in my BMW it made a slight difference in fuel economy but the more noticable effect was a slightly quieter and smoother running engine. How is everybody measuring and adding the acetone to their tanks? I used a plastic syringe designed for mixing oil into 2-cycle engines and it didn't work quite so well. Apparently this item counts on the lubrication of the oil it's designed to inject to work smoothly...
I haven't had a chance to use it in my wife's Blazer yet, but in my BMW it made a slight difference in fuel economy but the more noticable effect was a slightly quieter and smoother running engine. How is everybody measuring and adding the acetone to their tanks? I used a plastic syringe designed for mixing oil into 2-cycle engines and it didn't work quite so well. Apparently this item counts on the lubrication of the oil it's designed to inject to work smoothly...
OverBoardProject
11-17-2005, 12:00 AM
I use a turkey baster with the measurements on, and pour it into a gerry can.
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
ZL1power69
11-17-2005, 08:58 AM
I use a turkey baster with the measurements on, and pour it into a gerry can.
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
i use a measuring cup and a funnel and have not had any spills
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
i use a measuring cup and a funnel and have not had any spills
muzzy1maniac
11-17-2005, 10:38 AM
I use a turkey baster with the measurements on, and pour it into a gerry can.
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
I used a measuring cup and poured it into a plastic water bottle while home in my garage.That way I can safely bring it to the gas station and I don't have to mess with measuring on the spot. No drips either. :naughty:
I've spilled too many times to want to put it into a car with a nice paint job.
Good thing that every time that I spilled it it was in my Blazer before the paint job.
There must be a spill free method.
I used a measuring cup and poured it into a plastic water bottle while home in my garage.That way I can safely bring it to the gas station and I don't have to mess with measuring on the spot. No drips either. :naughty:
drdd
11-17-2005, 08:54 PM
at the risk of sounding dumb ...
At the bottom of the page, GM says that their vehicles use more fuel when the engine is cold. Why is this? Is it friction from oil that is not yet warmed up?
Info - Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy #05-00-89-072 - (Oct 24, 2005)
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks
2003-2006 HUMMER H2
2006 HUMMER H3
2005-2006 Saab 9-7X
Please direct this bulletin to the Service Manager, the Service Consultants, and the Sales Staff. A copy of this bulletin is encouraged to be given to your customer as it is written with the consumer in mind. You may also post this bulletin in your customer lounge or waiting area.
A Statement About Fuel Economy
As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuel consumption. GM is presently proud to offer 20 cars in the U.S. with EPA highway estimates of at least 30 mpg. The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.
The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:
• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.
Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.
The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.
Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.
Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.
Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.
Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.
Vehicle Considerations:
• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.
• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.
• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.
• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.
Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.
• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.
• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.
Changes In Driving Habits:
• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.
• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.
• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.
• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
At the bottom of the page, GM says that their vehicles use more fuel when the engine is cold. Why is this? Is it friction from oil that is not yet warmed up?
Info - Fuel and Oil Additives - Facts and Myths/Maximizing Fuel Economy #05-00-89-072 - (Oct 24, 2005)
2006 and Prior All GM Cars and Trucks
2003-2006 HUMMER H2
2006 HUMMER H3
2005-2006 Saab 9-7X
Please direct this bulletin to the Service Manager, the Service Consultants, and the Sales Staff. A copy of this bulletin is encouraged to be given to your customer as it is written with the consumer in mind. You may also post this bulletin in your customer lounge or waiting area.
A Statement About Fuel Economy
As gasoline prices have increased, the consumer has shifted priorities to become increasingly concerned with fuel consumption. GM is presently proud to offer 20 cars in the U.S. with EPA highway estimates of at least 30 mpg. The information below contains reasonable and prudent advice for your dealership and the consumer to get the most from every gallon of gas.
The information below is presented in two easy to understand sections:
• What Not To Do: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
• What to Do: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
WHAT NOT TO DO: Engine and Fuel Additives, Alternate Fuels, and "Miracle" Products
Various unproven products to improve vehicle fuel economy have been reported ranging from magnets that align molecules to chemical combustion improvers.
Most products claiming to provide benefits are based on unsubstantiated claims. Those that do present "scientific" results generally either have too little supporting data to be conclusive, have not conducted experiments in a controlled fashion, or cannot be substantiated by anyone else but the product's manufacturer.
The U.S. Federal Trade Commission summarizes results for products tested by the federal government at www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/gasave.htm. A review of the list shows that the majority did not work, and for those that showed some effect, the benefit was too small to be cost effective.
Harmful Ideas That May Damage Your Vehicle and Increase Emissions
One more recent poor idea to improve fuel economy that should not be attempted is to blend either kerosene or diesel fuel into gasoline. Why? Both kerosene and diesel fuel are distillate fuels meant for use in compression ignition engines, not spark ignition engines. They have very low octane and since they are heavier (higher density) than gasoline, they will cause heavy engine deposits and degradation of engine oil.
Notice: Never put Kerosene or Diesel Fuel in your Gasoline Engine vehicle. This may result in inconsistent performance and permanent damage to your vehicle that is not covered by your New Vehicle Warranty.
Chemicals that are normally used as solvents also should not be used. These include acetone, ketones, and methanol. These solvents can be incompatible with your vehicles rubber or sealing components, and may dissolve the vehicle’s paint finish. In the case of methanol, corrosion of metal parts in the fuel system also may occur.
Notice: Never use acetone, ketones, or methanol additives in your vehicle. Some of these solvents may damage or corrode your fuel system. They are also very damaging to the painted surfaces of the vehicle if spilled.
WHAT TO DO: Maximizing Fuel Economy/Minimizing Costs
The best fuel economy possible is the direct result of proper maintenance and good driving habits. Listed below are GM's recommendations to achieve the best mileage possible. The first group are things to consider for your vehicle, while the second are tips relating to your driving habits.
Vehicle Considerations:
• Tire Pressure - One of the major contributors to poor fuel economy are under inflated tires. Tires low on pressure create drag that the vehicle’s powertrain must overcome, wasting dollars in fuel. Always keep your tires inflated to the proper pressure as shown on the vehicle placard. This not only serves to increase gas mileage but cuts down on tire wear, further decreasing your costs per mile.
• Air Filter - A vehicle that has a dirty air filter can’t efficiently draw air into the engine. This restriction forces the engine to expend energy to "breathe" wasting fuel in the process. Change recommendations are found in your vehicle Owner’s Manual.
• Proper Viscosity "Starburst" Rated Oil - Always use the proper viscosity oil in your engine. Oil that has a higher than required viscosity will create more drag on the internal components of the engine, causing more work for it, especially when cold. Each Owner’s Manual contains information on the proper type of oil for your vehicle. Look for the "starburst" symbol on the front of the bottle, and the SM rating on the API circle on the back label. If you are in doubt, stop by your dealer for an oil change, and any other services required. Most current GM vehicles are equipped with oil life monitors to further assist on the "when" to change your oil. (Aveo/Wave/Optra/Epica currently do not have oil life monitors).
Notice: GM Vehicles DO NOT require additional engine oil additives. Some additives may cause harmful effects to the internal seals and additionally void the terms of your vehicles New Car Warranty.
• Top Tier Fuels - Some fuel manufacturers provide gasoline advertised asTOP TIER DETERGENT GASOLINE (Chevron, Conoco, Phillips 66, Shell, Entec Stations, MFA , 76, Somerset Oil, QuikTrip, and Kwik Trip in the U.S. and Chevron in Canada. These fuels are preferable when and where available. They help to keep your fuel injectors and intake valves free of deposits. Clean engines provide optimal fuel economy, performance and reduced emissions. When Top Tier fuels are not available, consider a bottle of GM Fuel System treatment PLUS, P/N# 88861011 (in Canada, #88861012), at oil change time which will remove intake system and injector deposits. GM does not recommend any other fuel system cleaner.
Important: DO NOT confuse Top Tier Fuels with Higher Octane (Plus/Premium Grade Fuel) commonly sold at most all gas stations. Plus and Premium fuels are required in some high performance GM vehicles. However, they do not necessarily represent higher detergency present in TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.
Important: For additional information regarding Top Tier fuels and availability, please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-047E for U.S. or 05-06-04-022 for Canada.
Notice: E85 FUELS: Only vehicles designated for use with E85 should use E85 blended fuel. E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol. Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85 designated vehicles can cause driveability issues, service engine soon indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion. See Corporate Bulletin Number 05-06-04-035 for additional information.
• Use the Recommended Grade (Octane) Fuel Purchasing higher than required octane fuel is a waste of money. Using higher octane fuels in a vehicle that only required regular unleaded fuel will neither increase performance nor improve gas mileage. In all cases refer to your owners manual and ONLY use the octane rated fuel recommended for your vehicle.
Important: In high performance GM vehicles that DO require Premium (91 octane or higher) fuel, you MUST use fuels of at least this octane. Use of lower octane fuel may result in reduced performance, knocking, and/or permanent engine damage not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.
• Check Engine/Service Engine Soon Light - Is the Check Engine/SES light on? When this light is on, the vehicles On-Board diagnostics computer has noticed that something is wrong. GM vehicles have many sensors that the computer uses to both control and sense actual fuel usage. When the computer lights the Check Engine/SES light it has lost some ability to run efficiently. This may result in increased fuel consumption, increased emissions, and/or driveability concerns.
• Spark Plugs - Even though current GM vehicles have 160,000 km (100,000 mi) service intervals for spark plugs if your vehicle is at that point in it's life, have the spark plugs changed to assure proper running and continued efficient, trouble free operation.
Changes In Driving Habits:
• Slow Down, Drive Smoothly - Avoid quick/full throttle acceleration from a standstill in town and high cruising speeds on the interstates. While the optimum MPG for highway cruising speed varies from vehicle to vehicle, faster is almost always worse. If your vehicle is equipped with a Driver Information Center that displays Instant Fuel Economy, select that read out and vary your cruising speed while on the highway. The display will change continuously with uphill and downhill sections but you should quickly be able to identify on level ground the speed range that your vehicle does the best in.
• Empty Your Trunk - Avoid leaving unnecessary items in your trunk. It takes power to move increased weight and that means more gasoline consumption and reduced performance. While the change may be slight, multiplied by thousands of miles, it all adds up.
• Avoid Extended Idling - There is no need to idle your engine till it reaches operating temperature. Idling wastes fuel.
• Combine Trips - Your vehicle uses much more fuel when the engine is cold. This is especially true in the winter months when the engine will take the longest to warm up. Combine errands or trips so that the vehicle only needs to warm up once to encompass many different stops.
GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
wolfox
11-17-2005, 09:27 PM
Nope, it's actually a means of warming up the engine and catalyst faster. The ECM dumps more fuel than normal until it detects the engine running temp to be around 160+ degrees F. THen it trims the fuel back to normal, closed loop trims. When you get to the highway and the engine is warm, it uses the least amount of fuel. It further leans out the fuel trim and adjusts timing to get you the best mileage possible when you settle into a cruise speed.
drdd
11-17-2005, 09:43 PM
how does 'more fuel than normal' make the engine warm up faster?
I can understand how a heavier engine load, or revving would make the engine warm up faster but ....
is it a matter of ign timing ?
what about the GM statement: there is no need to idle your truck until it reaches warmed up temperature ? doesn't letting your truck warm up allow the oil to heatup and circulate while not having alot of load stress on the engine ?? we all know about "engine wear at startup", synthetics, etc ....
so, starting the truck cold and driving away is no different than letting it warm up for a few minutes before driving away ???
Nope, it's actually a means of warming up the engine and catalyst faster. The ECM dumps more fuel than normal until it detects the engine running temp to be around 160+ degrees F. THen it trims the fuel back to normal, closed loop trims. When you get to the highway and the engine is warm, it uses the least amount of fuel. It further leans out the fuel trim and adjusts timing to get you the best mileage possible when you settle into a cruise speed.
I can understand how a heavier engine load, or revving would make the engine warm up faster but ....
is it a matter of ign timing ?
what about the GM statement: there is no need to idle your truck until it reaches warmed up temperature ? doesn't letting your truck warm up allow the oil to heatup and circulate while not having alot of load stress on the engine ?? we all know about "engine wear at startup", synthetics, etc ....
so, starting the truck cold and driving away is no different than letting it warm up for a few minutes before driving away ???
Nope, it's actually a means of warming up the engine and catalyst faster. The ECM dumps more fuel than normal until it detects the engine running temp to be around 160+ degrees F. THen it trims the fuel back to normal, closed loop trims. When you get to the highway and the engine is warm, it uses the least amount of fuel. It further leans out the fuel trim and adjusts timing to get you the best mileage possible when you settle into a cruise speed.
wolfox
11-17-2005, 09:55 PM
The catalyst reacts with oxygen and left over fuel in the combustion gas flow. If this flow is enriched with more fuel, the catalyst heats faster and starts working. The first 10-15 minutes an engine is started from stone cold, the catalyst is not doing much of anything until it is hot. Once hot, and entering closed loop, the computer dynamically adjust everything properly according to fuel curve patterns for load, speed, throttle demand, etc, and your mileage normalizes. This is why short trips consume more fuel when the engine is cold, than if you started the engine hot and just took off. Becuse of EPA mandate it is required that catalysts and O2 sensors reach operating temps within a specified time. Enriching or "dumping" more fuel in the cold stages of an engine's warm-up cycle speeds this process along of heating the cats up quickly. Recent EPA mandates require a catalyst to also meet certain long life demands. To facilitate this, "quenching" of the catalyst is done by dumping periodic bursts of *heavier* than normal amounts of fuel that momentarily overwhelm the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust stream, stalling the catalizing process. This is why late generation vehicles ('05 and later) are seeing slight *decreases* in fuel economy as of late. Japanese auto makers are particularly notorious for using this technique in first run '05 automobiles. Later revisions are engineered a little better to meet these demands and have seen recent boosts in fuel economy once again. Quite a mess if you ask me, of laws, consumer demands and engineering of these vehicles...but I am rambling. :cwm27:
Driving *hard* on cold oil only realy creates a problem because the oil is typically a bit thicker and it is bypassing the filter through a block pressure relief valve. As it warms up, it flows thinner and the bypass valve closes. Any particulate matter that is bypassing the filter through the block bypass recirculates in the engine. Anything bigger than 20 microns or so is larger than the thin film protecting the bearings and under load, these particles can become embedded in races and journals. Start it, let it run for a minute to let RPM settle because honestly, the sun reaction shells do not take high RPM engagement well. Once it drops to about 650/700 RPM on it's own it can be put into drive/reverse. Then, keep steady, low engine loads until it heats up to operating temp and then you can stick your foot in it. Oil temperatures lag behind coolant temps, so even though your heads are totally hot, the belly of the engine and your oil will still be a bit cooler and thicker for a little while. I know my engine is "warm" when the oil pressure gague no longer rests at 50 PSI when idle and bumps around a little at 35 PSI. The warmer oil will be properly running full flow through the filter and particulates caught in our filter saves the bearings from wiping themselves out if there is anything circulating in the sump and oil. :D
My roomate scares me. He starts his Mini and before the engine can settle out of high idle, he's putting it into gear and is standing on the peddal as fast as you can say, "Dude, chill." Give the engines a minute, especially in cold weather to settle into low idle and stabilize. Then keep RPM's under 2.5K and loads low for at least 10-15 minutes. Ease onto the highway if you're still stone cold and watch revs for about 5 minutes. These engines will go a LONG,long time if you mind them a little. :) Remember, an idling engine has an MPG of zero - it's best to let them settle after start and then drive off mindfully. Once they are hot, they do not go through a warm up period unless it rests for more than 6 hours or so. Idling will just waste fuel at this point. Start it, let it settle at speed in low idle and then go.
Driving *hard* on cold oil only realy creates a problem because the oil is typically a bit thicker and it is bypassing the filter through a block pressure relief valve. As it warms up, it flows thinner and the bypass valve closes. Any particulate matter that is bypassing the filter through the block bypass recirculates in the engine. Anything bigger than 20 microns or so is larger than the thin film protecting the bearings and under load, these particles can become embedded in races and journals. Start it, let it run for a minute to let RPM settle because honestly, the sun reaction shells do not take high RPM engagement well. Once it drops to about 650/700 RPM on it's own it can be put into drive/reverse. Then, keep steady, low engine loads until it heats up to operating temp and then you can stick your foot in it. Oil temperatures lag behind coolant temps, so even though your heads are totally hot, the belly of the engine and your oil will still be a bit cooler and thicker for a little while. I know my engine is "warm" when the oil pressure gague no longer rests at 50 PSI when idle and bumps around a little at 35 PSI. The warmer oil will be properly running full flow through the filter and particulates caught in our filter saves the bearings from wiping themselves out if there is anything circulating in the sump and oil. :D
My roomate scares me. He starts his Mini and before the engine can settle out of high idle, he's putting it into gear and is standing on the peddal as fast as you can say, "Dude, chill." Give the engines a minute, especially in cold weather to settle into low idle and stabilize. Then keep RPM's under 2.5K and loads low for at least 10-15 minutes. Ease onto the highway if you're still stone cold and watch revs for about 5 minutes. These engines will go a LONG,long time if you mind them a little. :) Remember, an idling engine has an MPG of zero - it's best to let them settle after start and then drive off mindfully. Once they are hot, they do not go through a warm up period unless it rests for more than 6 hours or so. Idling will just waste fuel at this point. Start it, let it settle at speed in low idle and then go.
GMMerlin
11-18-2005, 11:43 AM
A slightly richer mixture is needed during cold starts to insure that the engine will start and run until the combustion chambers warm up. (remember trying to start engines without a choke?..kind of difficult)
The PCM has a preset fuel strategy until the O2, coolant and converters heat up enough to allow the PCM to go into a “closed loop” fuel strategy where the PCM tightly controls the fuel rate.
You don’t have to let your vehicle sit and idle until it reaches operating temperature, but allowing it to run long enough to warm up the fluids and components a few degrees to take up clearances and allow the fluids to circulate throughout the engine and trans.
Usually this will only take 3-5 minutes.
What you fail to understand is that GM and other automakers have tested their fuel system components that have been returned.
There is evidence that the chemicals you are mixing in your fuel to “improve mileage” is having a detrimental effect on the system components.
Acetone is nail polish remover…does an excellent job…it also removes the coatings on the inside of the fuel lines, coatings from the windings of the injectors.
Add alcohol to this and you have a recipe for some serious fuel line damage..since alcohol absorbs water, this causes the damaged lines to corrode even faster.
While you people slam GM, dealers and dealer technicians, we are trying to fix your vehicles that have been damaged by the additives you have been putting in your gasoline.
I have a few vehicles right now in my service department that have internally corroded fuel lines and clogged injectors.
2 vehicles have 15-30% alcohol concentrations in the fuel and another I have sent out the fuel sample to an independent lab to confirm my suspicion of Acetone.
All of these vehicles are under warranty and at least one will become the responsibility of the customer to pay for all repairs (including fuel tests) if my hunch is right and they do have Acetone concentrations in the fuel.
If you want to play games and add all kind of additives to your vehicles, that is your prerogative…just don’t start blaming GM, dealers or dealer technicians when they present you with a bill for the damage YOU not GM caused to your vehicle.
Understand that the warranty on your vehicle covers FACTORY DEFECTS not customer induced defects due to modifications.
If you want to know more about gasoline, find my thread on “Truth about Gasoline”
The PCM has a preset fuel strategy until the O2, coolant and converters heat up enough to allow the PCM to go into a “closed loop” fuel strategy where the PCM tightly controls the fuel rate.
You don’t have to let your vehicle sit and idle until it reaches operating temperature, but allowing it to run long enough to warm up the fluids and components a few degrees to take up clearances and allow the fluids to circulate throughout the engine and trans.
Usually this will only take 3-5 minutes.
What you fail to understand is that GM and other automakers have tested their fuel system components that have been returned.
There is evidence that the chemicals you are mixing in your fuel to “improve mileage” is having a detrimental effect on the system components.
Acetone is nail polish remover…does an excellent job…it also removes the coatings on the inside of the fuel lines, coatings from the windings of the injectors.
Add alcohol to this and you have a recipe for some serious fuel line damage..since alcohol absorbs water, this causes the damaged lines to corrode even faster.
While you people slam GM, dealers and dealer technicians, we are trying to fix your vehicles that have been damaged by the additives you have been putting in your gasoline.
I have a few vehicles right now in my service department that have internally corroded fuel lines and clogged injectors.
2 vehicles have 15-30% alcohol concentrations in the fuel and another I have sent out the fuel sample to an independent lab to confirm my suspicion of Acetone.
All of these vehicles are under warranty and at least one will become the responsibility of the customer to pay for all repairs (including fuel tests) if my hunch is right and they do have Acetone concentrations in the fuel.
If you want to play games and add all kind of additives to your vehicles, that is your prerogative…just don’t start blaming GM, dealers or dealer technicians when they present you with a bill for the damage YOU not GM caused to your vehicle.
Understand that the warranty on your vehicle covers FACTORY DEFECTS not customer induced defects due to modifications.
If you want to know more about gasoline, find my thread on “Truth about Gasoline”
TonyMazz
11-18-2005, 12:52 PM
Thanks GMMerlin and I 100% agree with you...!!
:ylsuper:
:ylsuper:
TonyMazz
11-18-2005, 12:54 PM
Interesting how the first thing they mention is that they have so many models with 30mpg or better.......
Yea, scare them into not using something to help their mileage so people will give up and buy another car.
Either way, I am continuing my use. 2-3mpg is better than listening to them for sure.
Good for you....but aren't you the same person that recommended that we NOT use carb cleaner on cleaning an EGR valve because it will damage the rubber, etc ?
Oh well.....But atleast you know how GM views it.........
Yea, scare them into not using something to help their mileage so people will give up and buy another car.
Either way, I am continuing my use. 2-3mpg is better than listening to them for sure.
Good for you....but aren't you the same person that recommended that we NOT use carb cleaner on cleaning an EGR valve because it will damage the rubber, etc ?
Oh well.....But atleast you know how GM views it.........
BlazerLT
11-20-2005, 01:55 PM
GM also warns against using oil additives which is a crock of crap anyways. I am not talking about cleaners, but oil additives to replenish and enhance the oil's moly, boron, zinc, calcium level for more protection and oxidation stability.
Go figure. GM not wanting you to use something to help add life to your vehicle so you can buy another car from them....Say it ain't so.
If anyone wants more information on this topic they can also look here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
And also Tony, weren't you the one that questioned AutoRX and said it wasn't worth it and it was a borderline scam?
Oh well.....At least you used it in your truck in the long run didn't you? :) ;)
Go figure. GM not wanting you to use something to help add life to your vehicle so you can buy another car from them....Say it ain't so.
If anyone wants more information on this topic they can also look here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
And also Tony, weren't you the one that questioned AutoRX and said it wasn't worth it and it was a borderline scam?
Oh well.....At least you used it in your truck in the long run didn't you? :) ;)
TonyMazz
11-21-2005, 08:26 AM
GM also warns against using oil additives which is a crock of crap anyways. I am not talking about cleaners, but oil additives to replenish and enhance the oil's moly, boron, zinc, calcium level for more protection and oxidation stability.
Go figure. GM not wanting you to use something to help add life to your vehicle so you can buy another car from them....Say it ain't so.
If anyone wants more information on this topic they can also look here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
And also Tony, weren't you the one that questioned AutoRX and said it wasn't worth it and it was a borderline scam?
Oh well.....At least you used it in your truck in the long run didn't you? :) ;)
Yes all, please review the link above as it begins to examine why you don't want to be hood-winked into using acetone in your fuel.....
Use this information or disregard.....
Thanks
T
Go figure. GM not wanting you to use something to help add life to your vehicle so you can buy another car from them....Say it ain't so.
If anyone wants more information on this topic they can also look here:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
And also Tony, weren't you the one that questioned AutoRX and said it wasn't worth it and it was a borderline scam?
Oh well.....At least you used it in your truck in the long run didn't you? :) ;)
Yes all, please review the link above as it begins to examine why you don't want to be hood-winked into using acetone in your fuel.....
Use this information or disregard.....
Thanks
T
BlazerLT
11-21-2005, 09:45 AM
Yes all, please review the link above as it begins to examine why you don't want to be hood-winked into using acetone in your fuel.....
Use this information or disregard.....
Thanks
T
.......or be hood-winked into buying a new car from GM which is all that TSB proves GM wants.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
Use this information or disregard.....
Thanks
T
.......or be hood-winked into buying a new car from GM which is all that TSB proves GM wants.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
TonyMazz
11-21-2005, 11:20 AM
.......or be hood-winked into buying a new car from GM which is all that TSB proves GM wants.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
:rofl:
BLT It is always good to hear both sides of the issues, that's what makes a forum like this beneficial. You happen to enjoy the 2-4 mpg increase using acetone, based on what I have read (only some) these results are unusual. The bottom line is that it is working for you ....hey great...
Some may not want to experiment / risk things....and reflecting on the TSB provides a positional explanation from the manufacturer. Which to some is more credible than speculation or experimentation or whatever.
It will remain to be seen, the long term effects of using solvents to suppliment your gasoline....and for you BLT enjoy the benefits you see in your recent solvent suppliments, I am just providing information for all to benefit the Blazer forum...
:smokin:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=004041
:rofl:
BLT It is always good to hear both sides of the issues, that's what makes a forum like this beneficial. You happen to enjoy the 2-4 mpg increase using acetone, based on what I have read (only some) these results are unusual. The bottom line is that it is working for you ....hey great...
Some may not want to experiment / risk things....and reflecting on the TSB provides a positional explanation from the manufacturer. Which to some is more credible than speculation or experimentation or whatever.
It will remain to be seen, the long term effects of using solvents to suppliment your gasoline....and for you BLT enjoy the benefits you see in your recent solvent suppliments, I am just providing information for all to benefit the Blazer forum...
:smokin:
BlazerLT
11-21-2005, 12:49 PM
:rofl:
BLT It is always good to hear both sides of the issues, that's what makes a forum like this beneficial. You happen to enjoy the 2-4 mpg increase using acetone, based on what I have read (only some) these results are unusual. The bottom line is that it is working for you ....hey great...
Some may not want to experiment / risk things....and reflecting on the TSB provides a positional explanation from the manufacturer. Which to some is more credible than speculation or experimentation or whatever.
It will remain to be seen, the long term effects of using solvents to suppliment your gasoline....and for you BLT enjoy the benefits you see in your recent solvent suppliments, I am just providing information for all to benefit the Blazer forum...
:smokin:
You know I love you and you know you love me deep down in that AutoRX cleaned heart of yours. :D :)
BLT It is always good to hear both sides of the issues, that's what makes a forum like this beneficial. You happen to enjoy the 2-4 mpg increase using acetone, based on what I have read (only some) these results are unusual. The bottom line is that it is working for you ....hey great...
Some may not want to experiment / risk things....and reflecting on the TSB provides a positional explanation from the manufacturer. Which to some is more credible than speculation or experimentation or whatever.
It will remain to be seen, the long term effects of using solvents to suppliment your gasoline....and for you BLT enjoy the benefits you see in your recent solvent suppliments, I am just providing information for all to benefit the Blazer forum...
:smokin:
You know I love you and you know you love me deep down in that AutoRX cleaned heart of yours. :D :)
TonyMazz
11-21-2005, 03:43 PM
You know I love you and you know you love me deep down in that AutoRX cleaned heart of yours. :D :)
You are local in the cabassa haha :screwy:
But.....Acetone binds strongly to water, so if you get water in your fuel tank this can be a big problem. Although acetone dissolves nicely in gasoline, acetone and water do not. The little acetone-water droplets can clog your fuel injectors and cause problems.
Tell us how it works in zee vinter-time BLT....that will be the true test.... :uhoh:
You are local in the cabassa haha :screwy:
But.....Acetone binds strongly to water, so if you get water in your fuel tank this can be a big problem. Although acetone dissolves nicely in gasoline, acetone and water do not. The little acetone-water droplets can clog your fuel injectors and cause problems.
Tell us how it works in zee vinter-time BLT....that will be the true test.... :uhoh:
OverBoardProject
11-21-2005, 03:53 PM
This is taken from http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143848
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
TonyMazz
11-21-2005, 04:22 PM
This is taken from http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143848
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
Great information and read ....thx...personally I am not going to use it, but am convinced that we can cite a source for our positions...
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
Great information and read ....thx...personally I am not going to use it, but am convinced that we can cite a source for our positions...
balls_to_the_wall
11-21-2005, 04:26 PM
My view on this is, GM hasen't tested it and can't condone the use of it. Thereofore it is a Great opportunity to sell a new vehicle that gets better milage, which if you do that math (I have), it takes ALOT of miles to pay for that new more efficient vehicle. But I plan on going and buying some acetone pretty soon before I go home tommorow for thanksgiving break and giving it a try to see how much I can gain from it. But also, if a mechanical engineer says go ahead and try it, it can't hurt anything, that is all I need to go ahead and try it.
OverBoardProject
11-21-2005, 06:02 PM
Plus if you do buy that vehicle from Chevy tat gets better mileage adding Acetone to it will also give it even better mileage.
Personally with my carburated Blazer I almost double the mileage while off roading using 2 ounces per 10 gallons
I haven't checked the mileage difference on my Diesel powered car, but I can feel the power diference there
Personally with my carburated Blazer I almost double the mileage while off roading using 2 ounces per 10 gallons
I haven't checked the mileage difference on my Diesel powered car, but I can feel the power diference there
GMMerlin
11-21-2005, 07:49 PM
This is taken from http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=143848
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
Methonal is extremely corrosive to fuel system componants...it is not an additive that is put in gas.
Acetone reduces the formation of water-ice crystals in below-zero weather which damage the fuel filter.
On the other hand Alcohol does the opposite
This is taken from the same site
In contrast, alcohol has been shown to be corrosive in an engine, yet they put THAT into gasoline. Alcohol in general is anti-mileage. Alcohol is no good in fuels. In Brazil, millions of engines and fuel systems were ruined by alcohol.
Furthermore, alcohol increases surface tension, producing the opposite effect from acetone. Alcohol in fuel attracts water. This hurts mileage because water acts like a fire extinguisher. Some cars may run badly and even quit due to the incombustible nature of the water-laden fuel. We know of a dozen cars that recently stopped running due to water in the alcohol and gas mixture.
In below-zero weather, the water and alcohol form abrasive, icy particles that can damage fuel pumps.
Gas Line antifreez that you buy is Methol Hydrate (Alcohol) And the gas companies are putting Methnohol in most gas that we can actually buy now.
Sorry for my bad spelling, but you should get the point
Methonal is extremely corrosive to fuel system componants...it is not an additive that is put in gas.
OverBoardProject
11-21-2005, 08:00 PM
I thought that Mohawk Canada used in in their fuel, but I see that they use ethanol.
Still a form of alcohol which that timebomb web site sayes is a bad think in the winter
Still a form of alcohol which that timebomb web site sayes is a bad think in the winter
dmbrisket 51
11-23-2005, 12:31 AM
i see several sides developing here, i see gmmerlin's point of view, factory warrenty is for factory defect not the morons spread in john Q public, but it is rape to charge 85 an hour for service, a 'high' aftermarket shop gets gets 25 an hour less then that, and do every bit as good as the dealer... john Q has a point as in he / she sees and immediet result in their pocket book, they dont look at long term, and i know a few people here know exactly what i mean (for a clearer picture look at gmm's sig), and then a few people dont do it because the factory doesnt reccomend it... but as from my point of view, as an aftermarket shop employee, the dealer does reccomend good things and does some good things, like instead of just fixing the plastic intake problem back to graphite faced, they put steel plugs in the corners so they make it out of warrenty b4 they need done, and that is what i see here. Yes the dealer is in bed with gas companies, without the automotive industry, gas would be worthless, acitone is highly corrosive, and comming into the winter months gas is shitty so to speak, the companys do all they can to keep water out, which means more ethenol, which as obp said is corrosive, so why at more acid to the system? I am neither supporting the dealer or attacking them, but ill say that it is to their benifit to have you buy another vehical, so it would be in their interest to look the other way when you put acitone in you gas and eat the shit out of every thing, but they didn't, they said hey, uh, dont do that, its bad news... im sure plunty of tech.s such as gmm has seen enough damage to know that additives caused it, stay away from the acitone additives and patrolium distalets. and for the love of god obp dont be putting acitone in a Diesel moter, they work on a totally different level from a spark ignited moter, its all pressure inside, and not light untill an injector fires into 1,000 degrees of atmosphereic pressure
OverBoardProject
11-23-2005, 01:24 AM
I agree with you for the most part Doug, but I'm still going to use it in my car.
There is a small chance that it'll cost me a fuel pump or an engine, but I really don't think that it will.
If it does I have access to a spare motor with a fuel pump on. The mtor has a new head on so it's probably a better motor anyways
I'm just going by what the researchers claim.
I use only add about 1/2 the recomended amount in my car, and I've doubled the amount of conditioner that I use (as a precaution).
Like I said the power is noticebly beter, but I don't know about the mileage yet.
If I don't get better mileage I'll stop using it.
But the car is off the road until spring so the mileage test will have to wait
There is a small chance that it'll cost me a fuel pump or an engine, but I really don't think that it will.
If it does I have access to a spare motor with a fuel pump on. The mtor has a new head on so it's probably a better motor anyways
I'm just going by what the researchers claim.
I use only add about 1/2 the recomended amount in my car, and I've doubled the amount of conditioner that I use (as a precaution).
Like I said the power is noticebly beter, but I don't know about the mileage yet.
If I don't get better mileage I'll stop using it.
But the car is off the road until spring so the mileage test will have to wait
BlazerLT
11-23-2005, 02:18 AM
i see several sides developing here, i see gmmerlin's point of view, factory warrenty is for factory defect not the morons spread in john Q public, but it is rape to charge 85 an hour for service, a 'high' aftermarket shop gets gets 25 an hour less then that, and do every bit as good as the dealer... john Q has a point as in he / she sees and immediet result in their pocket book, they dont look at long term, and i know a few people here know exactly what i mean (for a clearer picture look at gmm's sig), and then a few people dont do it because the factory doesnt reccomend it... but as from my point of view, as an aftermarket shop employee, the dealer does reccomend good things and does some good things, like instead of just fixing the plastic intake problem back to graphite faced, they put steel plugs in the corners so they make it out of warrenty b4 they need done, and that is what i see here. Yes the dealer is in bed with gas companies, without the automotive industry, gas would be worthless, acitone is highly corrosive, and comming into the winter months gas is shitty so to speak, the companys do all they can to keep water out, which means more ethenol, which as obp said is corrosive, so why at more acid to the system? I am neither supporting the dealer or attacking them, but ill say that it is to their benifit to have you buy another vehical, so it would be in their interest to look the other way when you put acitone in you gas and eat the shit out of every thing, but they didn't, they said hey, uh, dont do that, its bad news... im sure plunty of tech.s such as gmm has seen enough damage to know that additives caused it, stay away from the acitone additives and patrolium distalets. and for the love of god obp dont be putting acitone in a Diesel moter, they work on a totally different level from a spark ignited moter, its all pressure inside, and not light untill an injector fires into 1,000 degrees of atmosphereic pressure
Because it doesn't eat the shit out of anything in a concentration of 0.235%
Because it doesn't eat the shit out of anything in a concentration of 0.235%
Brian R.
11-23-2005, 04:57 PM
IMO, anyone who sees a benefit in adding acetone to their fuel should prove it's not just a cleaning effect by stopping using the acetone for a short time. If the vehicle keeps the better mileage, the acetone did nothing but clean your injectors or whatever. You can stop using it for a while until you crap up your injectors again.
If the mileage drops back to where it was pretty quickly, then you can assume the acetone has some benefit besides acting as a solvent (which it is) and cleaning the injectors.
If the mileage drops back to where it was pretty quickly, then you can assume the acetone has some benefit besides acting as a solvent (which it is) and cleaning the injectors.
OverBoardProject
11-23-2005, 05:16 PM
Done that.
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
Brian R.
11-23-2005, 06:33 PM
Everyone should do something like that. Not everyone will need the acetone to keep up the mileage gain.
ZL1power69
11-23-2005, 07:55 PM
i'm on tank #4 of my first test cycle (3 tanks with acetone dose, 1 with just gas). i'll post results. depending on the results, i'll either continue use or use it periodically.
BlazerLT
11-23-2005, 10:32 PM
Done that.
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
Can I get a woop WOOP!
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
Can I get a woop WOOP!
Brian R.
11-25-2005, 12:31 PM
Done that.
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
What mileage were you getting with and without the acetone?
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
What mileage were you getting with and without the acetone?
OverBoardProject
11-25-2005, 12:43 PM
Hard to give you an accurate answer there.
My odometer is way out.
I was going no more than 235 units on a full tank without acetone, and no less than 275 units using it.
That's usually 1/2 on road and 1/2 off road.
I just took a 300 mile trip using acetone, and I used around 15 gallons. (56 Liters)
This is with my 85 4wd Blazer 2.8L recently re-built, carburated, auto 4.10 gears.
50 miles of that trip was through a white out after dark where I was in 4wd doing less than 20 mph.
I'm judging these distances by the map and the street signs.
My odometer is way out.
I was going no more than 235 units on a full tank without acetone, and no less than 275 units using it.
That's usually 1/2 on road and 1/2 off road.
I just took a 300 mile trip using acetone, and I used around 15 gallons. (56 Liters)
This is with my 85 4wd Blazer 2.8L recently re-built, carburated, auto 4.10 gears.
50 miles of that trip was through a white out after dark where I was in 4wd doing less than 20 mph.
I'm judging these distances by the map and the street signs.
Brian R.
11-25-2005, 01:09 PM
Interesting. I wonder if carbureted engines would benefit more or less than injected engines - everything else being the same. I would predict that injected engines see a larger effect.
dmbrisket 51
11-25-2005, 11:52 PM
ide say less of an effect, cleaning the bowl and intake on the carb moter is going to make a dramatic difference
Brian R.
11-26-2005, 07:25 AM
Well, the effect of acetone is supposed to not be a cleaning effect, but a change in the physical properties of the gasoline. If it were a cleaning effect, stopping using it for a short time wouldn't show such a dramatic change. The carb would stay clean for at least a short time.
TonyMazz
11-29-2005, 08:13 PM
Done that.
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
:disappoin
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
I started using Acetone with a freshly (still in the break in period) re-built motor.
New fuel tank.
And all new fuel lines.
It instantly got me better mileage.
Then when it was broken in I forgot to add the acetone once, and it instantly dropped Big Time.
Added it, and it's right back up.
:disappoin
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
OverBoardProject
11-29-2005, 08:18 PM
:disappoin
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
Read further down. Like right to the end ot the thread.
Or better yet, try it yourself then you'll see
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
Read further down. Like right to the end ot the thread.
Or better yet, try it yourself then you'll see
TonyMazz
11-30-2005, 09:12 AM
Read further down. Like right to the end ot the thread.
Or better yet, try it yourself then you'll see
Nah :grinno: you will never see me seduced by the latest internet craze. Too much at stake....
I stick to simple, reliable, and consistent so that when I need to trace a problem I can quickly rectify it and move on....
I have two new vehicles under warranty and won't jeopardize that....
Good luck ! :smokin:
May your injectors not plug, or your rubber not dry out or your fuel pump not loose its winding coating etc etc.... :lol:
Or better yet, try it yourself then you'll see
Nah :grinno: you will never see me seduced by the latest internet craze. Too much at stake....
I stick to simple, reliable, and consistent so that when I need to trace a problem I can quickly rectify it and move on....
I have two new vehicles under warranty and won't jeopardize that....
Good luck ! :smokin:
May your injectors not plug, or your rubber not dry out or your fuel pump not loose its winding coating etc etc.... :lol:
BlazerLT
11-30-2005, 09:41 AM
Nah :grinno: you will never see me seduced by the latest internet craze. Too much at stake....
I stick to simple, reliable, and consistent so that when I need to trace a problem I can quickly rectify it and move on....
I have two new vehicles under warranty and won't jeopardize that....
Good luck ! :smokin:
May your injectors not plug, or your rubber not dry out or your fuel pump not loose its winding coating etc etc.... :lol:
You tried Auto-RX after being a skeptic right?
What if GM came out with a TSB on that? Would you all of a sudden say their word is gospel on it as well?
I stick to simple, reliable, and consistent so that when I need to trace a problem I can quickly rectify it and move on....
I have two new vehicles under warranty and won't jeopardize that....
Good luck ! :smokin:
May your injectors not plug, or your rubber not dry out or your fuel pump not loose its winding coating etc etc.... :lol:
You tried Auto-RX after being a skeptic right?
What if GM came out with a TSB on that? Would you all of a sudden say their word is gospel on it as well?
TonyMazz
11-30-2005, 11:56 AM
You tried Auto-RX after being a skeptic right?
What if GM came out with a TSB on that? Would you all of a sudden say their word is gospel on it as well?
Ha Ha... :lol2: probably....
If they had specific issues with it that it was harmful why question the engineers.....they know more than I do about what makes their engines tick.... :uhoh:
Come on ...seriously, if you got 10 mpg better and we could form some big conspiracy theory ..but you are only getting 1-2 mpg improvements right....
say you drive 15K per year.....you get 21 miles to the gallon thats 714.5 gallons in a year and at say $2.15 per gallon thats $1535 per year.
say you don't use acetone and get 20 miles to the gallon thats 750 gallons per year and at the same $2.15 per gallon thats $1612 per year..
So you have saved $77 bucks for the year....cut that by 12 months that's a little over $6 per month.... or $1.50 per week.
So you save a buck-n-half per week per mile per gallon increase.... :lol:
How much is acetone....? :lol:
What if GM came out with a TSB on that? Would you all of a sudden say their word is gospel on it as well?
Ha Ha... :lol2: probably....
If they had specific issues with it that it was harmful why question the engineers.....they know more than I do about what makes their engines tick.... :uhoh:
Come on ...seriously, if you got 10 mpg better and we could form some big conspiracy theory ..but you are only getting 1-2 mpg improvements right....
say you drive 15K per year.....you get 21 miles to the gallon thats 714.5 gallons in a year and at say $2.15 per gallon thats $1535 per year.
say you don't use acetone and get 20 miles to the gallon thats 750 gallons per year and at the same $2.15 per gallon thats $1612 per year..
So you have saved $77 bucks for the year....cut that by 12 months that's a little over $6 per month.... or $1.50 per week.
So you save a buck-n-half per week per mile per gallon increase.... :lol:
How much is acetone....? :lol:
OverBoardProject
11-30-2005, 12:06 PM
Ha Ha... :lol2: probably....
If they had specific issues with it that it was harmful why question the engineers.....they know more than I do about what makes their engines tick.... :uhoh:
Come on ...seriously, if you got 10 mpg better and we could form some big conspiracy theory ..but you are only getting 1-2 mpg improvements right....
say you drive 15K per year.....you get 21 miles to the gallon thats 714.5 gallons in a year and at say $2.15 per gallon thats $1535 per year.
say you don't use acetone and get 20 miles to the gallon thats 750 gallons per year and at the same $2.15 per gallon thats $1612 per year..
So you have saved $77 bucks for the year....cut that by 12 months that's a little over $6 per month.... or $1.50 per week.
So you save a buck-n-half per week per mile per gallon increase.... :lol:
How much is acetone....? :lol:
Well I'm about to start that big conspiracy theory right now!
Wait, it's only a theory untill it's been proven, which acetone has.
They have been doing to us whatt only our mates should do for years.
Read these articles
http://www.mcaac.mb.ca/sajun01.html#Pogue
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ford.htm
I'm pretty sure that you'll be saying BS to it all, but if simply adding accetone can get us any better mileage there's probably some truth to these articles as well
there is one that I didn't list. Read into the history of the Diesel motor and prove to me that it was really intended to run on dino oil in the first place.
If they had specific issues with it that it was harmful why question the engineers.....they know more than I do about what makes their engines tick.... :uhoh:
Come on ...seriously, if you got 10 mpg better and we could form some big conspiracy theory ..but you are only getting 1-2 mpg improvements right....
say you drive 15K per year.....you get 21 miles to the gallon thats 714.5 gallons in a year and at say $2.15 per gallon thats $1535 per year.
say you don't use acetone and get 20 miles to the gallon thats 750 gallons per year and at the same $2.15 per gallon thats $1612 per year..
So you have saved $77 bucks for the year....cut that by 12 months that's a little over $6 per month.... or $1.50 per week.
So you save a buck-n-half per week per mile per gallon increase.... :lol:
How much is acetone....? :lol:
Well I'm about to start that big conspiracy theory right now!
Wait, it's only a theory untill it's been proven, which acetone has.
They have been doing to us whatt only our mates should do for years.
Read these articles
http://www.mcaac.mb.ca/sajun01.html#Pogue
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ford.htm
I'm pretty sure that you'll be saying BS to it all, but if simply adding accetone can get us any better mileage there's probably some truth to these articles as well
there is one that I didn't list. Read into the history of the Diesel motor and prove to me that it was really intended to run on dino oil in the first place.
TonyMazz
11-30-2005, 03:30 PM
Well I'm about to start that big conspiracy theory right now!
Wait, it's only a theory untill it's been proven, which acetone has.
They have been doing to us whatt only our mates should do for years.
Read these articles
http://www.mcaac.mb.ca/sajun01.html#Pogue
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ford.htm
I'm pretty sure that you'll be saying BS to it all, but if simply adding accetone can get us any better mileage there's probably some truth to these articles as well
there is one that I didn't list. Read into the history of the Diesel motor and prove to me that it was really intended to run on dino oil in the first place.
All great reading thanks.....
You can also pump your own blood with a hand pump to save wear-n-tear on your heart....but sooner or later you will mess up and will miss a beat....
....as with our mass produced machinery they go for 300,000 miles with just oil and gas and a good maintenance program....when is the last time a 70's,80's car did that...?? Not as prevelant as it is today...why mess with success of a proven commodity ??
While everyone wants to believe that we are being controlled by other forces, tell that to Ford, GM and Chyrsler as their losses mount...why becuase the public says no to higher prices....WE are in control.
Other than that....you can point me to all the sites in the internet world and the only one that counts is when I have to bring a car in and get it repaired.....I can't refer GM to the latest whizzinator site that says if I pour some elixir in my tank it says I can get better gas mileage....then they tell me I need new injector o-rings or something....
So at the end of the day, I will continue to stick with what works not some website that provides me with the hopes of a mechanical fountain of youth or a fuel pipe dream....I just want my trucks to run smooth and for along time.....
So my friend enjoy your new found success.... :smokin:
Wait, it's only a theory untill it's been proven, which acetone has.
They have been doing to us whatt only our mates should do for years.
Read these articles
http://www.mcaac.mb.ca/sajun01.html#Pogue
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ford.htm
I'm pretty sure that you'll be saying BS to it all, but if simply adding accetone can get us any better mileage there's probably some truth to these articles as well
there is one that I didn't list. Read into the history of the Diesel motor and prove to me that it was really intended to run on dino oil in the first place.
All great reading thanks.....
You can also pump your own blood with a hand pump to save wear-n-tear on your heart....but sooner or later you will mess up and will miss a beat....
....as with our mass produced machinery they go for 300,000 miles with just oil and gas and a good maintenance program....when is the last time a 70's,80's car did that...?? Not as prevelant as it is today...why mess with success of a proven commodity ??
While everyone wants to believe that we are being controlled by other forces, tell that to Ford, GM and Chyrsler as their losses mount...why becuase the public says no to higher prices....WE are in control.
Other than that....you can point me to all the sites in the internet world and the only one that counts is when I have to bring a car in and get it repaired.....I can't refer GM to the latest whizzinator site that says if I pour some elixir in my tank it says I can get better gas mileage....then they tell me I need new injector o-rings or something....
So at the end of the day, I will continue to stick with what works not some website that provides me with the hopes of a mechanical fountain of youth or a fuel pipe dream....I just want my trucks to run smooth and for along time.....
So my friend enjoy your new found success.... :smokin:
OverBoardProject
11-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Well Tony I just looked at your profile, and I see that your an Automotive Engineer, So we all know who signes your pay cheques
Case closed folks he's paid by the big auto manufactors who are involved with the oil industrry.
He gets paid to keep the blind fold over our eyes.
Case closed folks he's paid by the big auto manufactors who are involved with the oil industrry.
He gets paid to keep the blind fold over our eyes.
Brian R.
11-30-2005, 06:36 PM
I suggest you all respect his opinion and not try to force anything on him. His truck - his money - his opinion....
He's not trying to get you to do anything.
He's not trying to get you to do anything.
dmbrisket 51
11-30-2005, 11:57 PM
my auto teacher is an engeneer... why take a pay cut, deal with know it all kids (18 to 2x's) because not all engeneers agree with the company... after all without automotive engeneers that dont work for the factory there would be no aftermarket
BlazerLT
12-01-2005, 12:29 AM
I suggest you all respect his opinion and not try to force anything on him. His truck - his money - his opinion....
He's not trying to get you to do anything.
And also respect OUR opinion when we test something that works for us.
If he has the right to post his thoughts, we sure as hell have the right to state ours. It isn't like he has been perfectly nice in this thread either saying people's evidence and such is crap etc....
He's not trying to get you to do anything.
And also respect OUR opinion when we test something that works for us.
If he has the right to post his thoughts, we sure as hell have the right to state ours. It isn't like he has been perfectly nice in this thread either saying people's evidence and such is crap etc....
Brian R.
12-01-2005, 01:02 AM
Chill
This variance in opinions should stay where ever it is currently, and let's keep this discussion on the side of facts.
It is appropriate to calm down and keep this on the level of a discussion - not putting down others' opinions.
This variance in opinions should stay where ever it is currently, and let's keep this discussion on the side of facts.
It is appropriate to calm down and keep this on the level of a discussion - not putting down others' opinions.
OverBoardProject
12-01-2005, 02:42 PM
I don't want to offend you Brian
But it's my opinion that Tony there is putting everyone that's even thinking of trying acetone down.
If he would have been honest, and said "that as an automotive engineer it's his opinion that acetone isn't good" I would have considered what he said.
But when he makes claimes like
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
I personally feel that he's trying to put down everyones claims on this board, plus calling us outright liers
That isn't the only time that he was downright rude to a member either.
I'll tell you one thing, He sure doesn't respect our opinions!
But it's my opinion that Tony there is putting everyone that's even thinking of trying acetone down.
If he would have been honest, and said "that as an automotive engineer it's his opinion that acetone isn't good" I would have considered what he said.
But when he makes claimes like
That's all anecdotal crap...."better mileage"? "dropped Big Time" ?? :lol2:
So that's your indorsement to convince us that acetone is good ? :uhoh:
At least give us some numbers , what was the starting mileage, how many miles ? more input , more input........ :smokin:
I personally feel that he's trying to put down everyones claims on this board, plus calling us outright liers
That isn't the only time that he was downright rude to a member either.
I'll tell you one thing, He sure doesn't respect our opinions!
Brian R.
12-01-2005, 03:01 PM
IMO, there is a general problem here that extends to both sides. There is a bit of flame bait here and alot of over-reacting. Please allow anyone their opinion and feel free to state yours.
Let this topic cool down by avoiding a confrontation over differences of opinions. No opinion is wrong, it is just an opinion.
When someone disses your opinion, the best response is to keep low emotionally and avoid letting his/her opinion bother you. If you are adult, you can view the offending opinion for what it is, just an opinion and you don't have to try to fight back with an emotional response. Keep any response factual and then forget it unless he responds with an equally valid (not opinionated) response. Then you have a discussion. This is the aim for these forums. Discussion.
Opinions are not worth much. Educated opinions are almost as good as facts. Facts are worth alot. Unfortunately, true educated opinions and facts are few and far between. Also unfortunately, alot of internet problem-solving is by guesswork and opinion. Reading and more reading is the best way to establish someone's opinion value. Arguing about opinions just gets emotional and that is the death of reason.
There is no point in continuing this topic (or any other topic for that matter) if all there is to discuss is how invalid someone elses opinion is.
Let this topic cool down by avoiding a confrontation over differences of opinions. No opinion is wrong, it is just an opinion.
When someone disses your opinion, the best response is to keep low emotionally and avoid letting his/her opinion bother you. If you are adult, you can view the offending opinion for what it is, just an opinion and you don't have to try to fight back with an emotional response. Keep any response factual and then forget it unless he responds with an equally valid (not opinionated) response. Then you have a discussion. This is the aim for these forums. Discussion.
Opinions are not worth much. Educated opinions are almost as good as facts. Facts are worth alot. Unfortunately, true educated opinions and facts are few and far between. Also unfortunately, alot of internet problem-solving is by guesswork and opinion. Reading and more reading is the best way to establish someone's opinion value. Arguing about opinions just gets emotional and that is the death of reason.
There is no point in continuing this topic (or any other topic for that matter) if all there is to discuss is how invalid someone elses opinion is.
TonyMazz
12-01-2005, 04:32 PM
Thanks Brian...
I just want to appologize formally to all who have been offended, angered, or what ever in regards to my posts.
I thought we were having fun here and voicing our opinions and did not wish to create any hostility, or hard feelings. :uhoh:
I now know differently
Regards,
Tony
I just want to appologize formally to all who have been offended, angered, or what ever in regards to my posts.
I thought we were having fun here and voicing our opinions and did not wish to create any hostility, or hard feelings. :uhoh:
I now know differently
Regards,
Tony
OverBoardProject
12-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Thanks Brian...
I just want to appologize formally to all who have been offended, angered, or what ever in regards to my posts.
I thought we were having fun here and voicing our opinions and did not wish to create any hostility, or hard feelings. :uhoh:
I now know differently
Regards,
Tony
Accepted by me
I just want to appologize formally to all who have been offended, angered, or what ever in regards to my posts.
I thought we were having fun here and voicing our opinions and did not wish to create any hostility, or hard feelings. :uhoh:
I now know differently
Regards,
Tony
Accepted by me
Brian R.
12-01-2005, 05:36 PM
No blood, no foul... :)
spasticone
12-05-2005, 09:32 PM
I've read more good things about acetone in deisel engines than in gas engines. Truckers are using it more and more with TONS of miles on and not one reprecussions listed on the web. It also reduces emisions by up to 50%. Adding an extra lubricant is recomended by a few people whos work I've read, but they were also advicates for these oil additives (for in gasoline) before they were into acetone. If it ruins both of my old pieces of #*!& After giving me a 10% boost in mpg for a few years... It was worth it.
dmbrisket 51
12-05-2005, 09:46 PM
hm... never heard of a trucker usin acitone in their fuel tanks, and i see atleast a dozen a week at the shop, not saying your lieing or maken something up, but maby your sorce is trying to push a product? :dunno:
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