SS/SC Vs. Integra Type R

I wish i could get a video of a roll on race between a stock ITR and a stock SS/SC. Although, i dont think i would be surprised.
:lol: good luck finding an ITR, or a stock one for that matter racing a Cobalt SS. Most of the one's here in CA are either salvaged/totalled or rebadged GS-R's/LS's. No matter, they were cool little cars. I mean I do think they were overrated, as people were making them out to be a supra or something. I don't think any car is really going to beat an ITR reliability wise. That and they get really great gas mileage. I mean overall they are great, just not the quickest.

I wonder why.

Because the SS/SC is doing extremely well in the autox and scca circuts right now. It's hanging with and beating cars like the rx8 and the only thing really done to them is a little extra boost.

Because the SS/SC is doing extremely well in the autox and scca circuts right now. It's hanging with and beating cars like the rx8 and the only thing really done to them is a little extra boost.


Your cars claim to fame is beating Rx8's in AutoX?

Your cars claim to fame is beating Rx8's in AutoX?


With extra boost.

I dont know about you but i'm really starting to hate the cobalt...

I disagree with you Bulldog, as a Type R should hand your car it's ass in the Auto X. Your car pulls good G's, but that's not all there is to cornering. You've already admitted that your brakes tend to lock from time to time. The Type R's suspension was specifically designed with auto x'ing. It won't beat a well modded mustang or camaro, but it won't hang it's head in shame.

The only type of race a Integra Type R is going to beat a Cobalt SS in is autocross. On road course the SS would win because the Type R’s handling advantage wouldn’t be enough to over come the SS power advantage (130 lb-ft vs 200 lb-ft coming out of a turn). I don’t think there even a point in talking about drag racing.

The only reason the Type R gets so much hype is because so few where made. If they were as common as Civic Si’s people would see them for what they are: A good handling car with descent power.

The RSX Type S has more power then Integra Type R but it will never get the same hype because it’s common enough that if someone tried to hype it up everyone would call BS.

Let me get this straight. The reason the cobalt does worse than it should in the 1/4 is because of tires and traction issues, and yet you use the torque as the advantage over the Type R? What exactly would make the Cobalt not spin it's tires "coming out of a turn?"

the integra handles better and that is a fact.

in contrast, the colbalt is better in the straight line.

the integra is missing one key element that is difficult to make up for. if that car is out of its powerband it has ZERO torque. even at peak torque that little motor only puts down 130 ft lb.

staying with rx-8's is pathetic at best. those cars are slow and they don't handle as well as the commercials may have you think they do.

i like the colbalt and i think it's nice coming from gm, but it's still front wheel drive. i KILLED one out of the hole in my G35 the other day.

staying with rx-8's is pathetic at best. those cars are slow and they don't handle as well as the commercials may have you think they do.
I agree 100%. Some guy posted a vid on here of an RX8 getting passed by WRX's and Evo's. Heck, I think the only car it beat was a Miata (the old ones with 148hp). I mean it's great that you have rotary power, but without forced induction, those cars just don't put down good numbers IMO. I really loved the previous generation twin turbo model.

The only type of race a Integra Type R is going to beat a Cobalt SS in is autocross. On road course the SS would win because the Type R’s handling advantage wouldn’t be enough to over come the SS power advantage (130 lb-ft vs 200 lb-ft coming out of a turn). I don’t think there even a point in talking about drag racing.

The only reason the Type R gets so much hype is because so few where made. If they were as common as Civic Si’s people would see them for what they are: A good handling car with descent power.

The RSX Type S has more power then Integra Type R but it will never get the same hype because it’s common enough that if someone tried to hype it up everyone would call BS.
I'd not be so sure to down play the ITR on a road race, awesome brakes the gearing is setup for short runs like that, and it handles better ITR gets some of its hype from the fact a well pioleted R can take down some bigger guns then it self.

I used to have a vid of a ITR staying with a LS1 ss *stock for stock* around VIR for a few laps, quite impressive I must say.

You are right about the rareness getting it hyped look on honda tech every other thread about them is one being stolen :mad: .

and gotta say no love for N/A rotarys?!?! Look up scoots car I'll gladly send the vid of it to anyone just AIM me its 2.6L making over 600 WHP and almost 8 ft lbs :p

Granted the rx8 sucks ass in each form of the way infact I once test drove one I wanted my 15 mins back and a rusty trombone from the dealer for telling me that car was nice.

and a rusty trombone from the dealer for telling me that car was nice.



:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Let me get this straight. The reason the cobalt does worse than it should in the 1/4 is because of tires and traction issues, and yet you use the torque as the advantage over the Type R? What exactly would make the Cobalt not spin it's tires "coming out of a turn?"
It wouldn’t spin it’s tires because on a road course cars are always going to be doing 20-30MPH and at that point traction is going to be a non issue. The SS Cobalts without LSDs might have some trouble, but at 20-30MPH an LSD equipped SS is going to have no problem getting all of it’s power to the ground.

I used to have a vid of a ITR staying with a LS1 ss *stock for stock* around VIR for a few laps, quite impressive I must say.
I would like to see the video, but I guess can see how that could happen. The ITR weighs about 800-900 lbs less then the Camaro, has much better brakes and the same wheelbase.

Camaros arent exactly known for their out of the box conering...I'd compare them to a shopping cart with a bent wheel ;)

Nah, not that bad...but still.

the kill on the ITR might be believable.....nice kill I guess......but the 4 car lenghts on a modd srt4......
is a little........how do you say it ........much...even with a boost leak......

Camaros arent exactly known for their out of the box conering...I'd compare them to a shopping cart with a bent wheel
I think short wheelbase is/was the main problem with the Camaro’s handling, I mean even the Cobalt’s 2" longer.

I'm not sure where some of you are coming up with "more torque = comes out of turn faster"

I suppose its easy to make this generalization because of the huge gap between them (130lbs/ft vs 200lbs/ft). BUT you have to remember that they almost make the same horsepower. And where does horsepower come from?

....TORQUE! :biggrin:

For the ITR to make the same horsepower as the SS, it needs to have multiplied its small amount of torque at a much higher rpm. And because of this the ITR will hold a much flatter curve than the SS (which is really what matters the most; the total area under the curve, instead of where it peaks).

SO, given the ITR is in the correct gear coming out of the turn, it shouldn't fall that far behind, if not even, with an SS coming out of the same turn. And you have to put into consideration that the SS peaks torque a lot sooner than the ITR, so maybe by time its coming out of the turn, its torque has already started to drop off and horsepower now needs to pick up for it.

This is NOT to say that one is better than the other, I just wanted to dispell some myths.

And if you still don't believe me, Why is it that my 163 lbs/ft Prelude can pull away from a 210 lbs/ft v6 Mustang?

Point.

P=W/T some of you may not know what this is... it is the formula for power. power is simply how fast something can do work. W=F*D work is force times distance, Tq=F*Tqarm. so basically the more torque you have the more force, meaning that you can do more work, meaning that you can get more power. but this all depends on the amount of time it takes the engine to do this work. so if you can generate power at a higher rpm wouldnt you be able to do work faster... but just because your at a higher rpm doesnt mean youll have alot of power because you may not have the torque... im not sure where im going with this but you can take it for what you will. so basically torque does win races as the saying goes because it gives you the ability to create more power, or do work at a faster rate. but doesnt necessarily mean you will.

edit- this is in most cases, as you see with diesel motors, they have tremendous torque arms and that is why they generate so much tq, rather than having a larger force. which is why they are so unbalanced in their hp and tq ratings.

the kill on the ITR might be believable.....nice kill I guess......but the 4 car lenghts on a modd srt4......
is a little........how do you say it ........much...even with a boost leak......


I talked to my srt-4 buddie the other night about getting his boost leak fixed. He said there was no boost leak and that the car was just running crappy that night. The dummie also told me he was in 4th gear...I was in third. I think that had more to do with it.

I'm not sure where some of you are coming up with "more torque = comes out of turn faster"

I suppose its easy to make this generalization because of the huge gap between them (130lbs/ft vs 200lbs/ft). BUT you have to remember that they almost make the same horsepower. And where does horsepower come from?

....TORQUE! :biggrin:

For the ITR to make the same horsepower as the SS, it needs to have multiplied its small amount of torque at a much higher rpm. And because of this the ITR will hold a much flatter curve than the SS (which is really what matters the most; the total area under the curve, instead of where it peaks).

SO, given the ITR is in the correct gear coming out of the turn, it shouldn't fall that far behind, if not even, with an SS coming out of the same turn. And you have to put into consideration that the SS peaks torque a lot sooner than the ITR, so maybe by time its coming out of the turn, its torque has already started to drop off and horsepower now needs to pick up for it.

This is NOT to say that one is better than the other, I just wanted to dispell some myths.

And if you still don't believe me, Why is it that my 163 lbs/ft Prelude can pull away from a 210 lbs/ft v6 Mustang?

Point.


The SS/SC has an insanely flat power curve dude...there are no peaks. It just gets moer power as more revs come.

being a supercharged motor it probably has an insanley flat tq curve too.

The SS/SC has an insanely flat power curve dude...there are no peaks. It just gets moer power as more revs come.

Did I ever say that it wasn't flat?

Did I ever say that it wasn't flat?

And because of this the ITR will hold a much flatter curve than the SS (which is really what matters the most; the total area under the curve, instead of where it peaks).


I took this as you meaning the SS has a peaky powerband...I probably just understood wrong.

In a road course style race, the cars would probably be equal in turns, with the possibly being a little more nimble so it can take a corner a bit faster, and the SS having more grunt so it can come out a bit faster.

But the straits and gradual curves is where I believe the SS would leave it behind. Just my oppinion though. I'd love to be able to run against one on a course, but there just arent many around.

flat power bands rewl! mines like a table top as are most roots supercharged cars. You hit the gas, and boom the car instantly gets into powerful RPMS

flat power bands rewl! mines like a table top as are most roots supercharged cars. You hit the gas, and boom the car instantly gets into powerful RPMS


It's kinda nice to have that power on tap when you need it isn't it?
I let my buddy take my car for a drive lastnight cause he's interested in the SS and has liked it since I've had mine. He's been in it a few times and has always been impressed, but he was blown away by how responsive the car is in just about any gear. He said "Damn! this thing just fucking goes!"

I talked to my srt-4 buddie the other night about getting his boost leak fixed. He said there was no boost leak and that the car was just running crappy that night. The dummie also told me he was in 4th gear...I was in third. I think that had more to do with it.

their you go now that sounds alittle bit more reasonable.....add the boost leak and your right on target.....hahaha....jk.....well....maybe

their you go now that sounds alittle bit more reasonable.....add the boost leak and your right on target.....hahaha....jk.....well....maybe

Nah, no boost leak. He was just in 4th gear is all. He actually dropped it from 5th to 4th were I was waiting in 3rd gear @ 4000 rpm.
What a goober he is. I had all my power on tap right then, no wonder he got left behind.

Camaros arent exactly known for their out of the box conering...I'd compare them to a shopping cart with a bent wheel ;)

Nah, not that bad...but still.
Ahh that depends on the camaro. If one purchased a camaro with the 1LE option, I can guarantee an ITR, or most cars for that matter, would suck it's dust. Not that the 1LE option is common, as it was a little over $1K as I recall, but it worked perfectly, unless you were in CA of course.

Ahh that depends on the camaro. If one purchased a camaro with the 1LE option, I can guarantee an ITR, or most cars for that matter, would suck it's dust. Not that the 1LE option is common, as it was a little over $1K as I recall, but it worked perfectly, unless you were in CA of course.

Hey, I never said they can't be made to handle well. I mearly said they arent KNOWN for thier handling ;)

I have a 71 that actually handles pretty well, considering all the body bushings looked like ground beef...come to think of it, all the bushings in that car looked like that. Still could take a corner though. Although very scary.

I'm not sure where some of you are coming up with "more torque = comes out of turn faster"

I suppose its easy to make this generalization because of the huge gap between them (130lbs/ft vs 200lbs/ft). BUT you have to remember that they almost make the same horsepower. And where does horsepower come from?

....TORQUE! :biggrin:

For the ITR to make the same horsepower as the SS, it needs to have multiplied its small amount of torque at a much higher rpm. And because of this the ITR will hold a much flatter curve than the SS (which is really what matters the most; the total area under the curve, instead of where it peaks).

SO, given the ITR is in the correct gear coming out of the turn, it shouldn't fall that far behind, if not even, with an SS coming out of the same turn. And you have to put into consideration that the SS peaks torque a lot sooner than the ITR, so maybe by time its coming out of the turn, its torque has already started to drop off and horsepower now needs to pick up for it.

This is NOT to say that one is better than the other, I just wanted to dispell some myths.

And if you still don't believe me, Why is it that my 163 lbs/ft Prelude can pull away from a 210 lbs/ft v6 Mustang?

Point.


why would the integra r have a flat power curve? even seen a dyno sheet of one, its mad peaky

why can your prelude pul away from a stang? weight difference. lighter cars need less torque

I would have to agree lighter cars require less tq...oh sorry I just want to be a post hore again....dont mind me.....

why would the integra r have a flat power curve? even seen a dyno sheet of one, its mad peaky

why can your prelude pul away from a stang? weight difference. lighter cars need less torque

First of all, I've been talking about torque curves.

http://www.pure-tuning.com/images/dyno/md250/dyno_itr_b18c.jpg

Tell me that torque curve is NOT flat.

And what you're saying about weight difference pretty much supports what i'm trying to say. Because the ITR is lighter and holds a tabletop torque curve, its not entirely impossible that it would keep up with the SS coming out of the turn.

Though I will admit the SS still has a slight advantage in this case. More people need to give credit to the ITR.

That's actually a really good power curve, you dont want something that spikes right off the bat, you want a smooth rising curve. And despite how low it is that torque curves not bad either.

First of all, I've been talking about torque curves.

http://www.pure-tuning.com/images/dyno/md250/dyno_itr_b18c.jpg

Tell me that torque curve is NOT flat.

And what you're saying about weight difference pretty much supports what i'm trying to say. Because the ITR is lighter and holds a tabletop torque curve, its not entirely impossible that it would keep up with the SS coming out of the turn.

Though I will admit the SS still has a slight advantage in this case. More people need to give credit to the ITR.

Oh yes, very flat curve indeed. Are you sure that's not the dyno graph from a small go-kart though?
:lol2:

That's actually a really good power curve, you dont want something that spikes right off the bat, you want a smooth rising curve. And despite how low it is that torque curves not bad either.
You got it.

With the AWESOME gearing *be it the 4.4 or the vaungted 4.7* those cars have less, even though the ITR with a good driver is always where he/she wants to be.

I don't know anyone elses feelings and Jekels car is fast so he doesn't need to worry but I always found braking and gearing more important the raw power and I think the ITR has such an advantage if not hang with an SS/SC it might be able to over take it.

Oh yes, very flat curve indeed. Are you sure that's not the dyno graph from a small go-kart though?
:lol2:

T'would be a pretty fast go kart :lol2:

You got it.

With the AWESOME gearing *be it the 4.4 or the vaungted 4.7* those cars have less, even though the ITR with a good driver is always where he/she wants to be.

I don't know anyone elses feelings and Jekels car is fast so he doesn't need to worry but I always found braking and gearing more important the raw power and I think the ITR has such an advantage if not hang with an SS/SC it might be able to over take it.


Hey hey hey...I have awesome gearing to. It says right in my owners manual..."close ratio" ;)

My brakes kick ass as well...when they work. The good news is, I havent had them malfunction in weeks! I thinks those sneaky bastards at the GM dealership did a little work on the abs system when I wasnt looking. Now that they don't lock up the damn thing will stop NOW.


T'would be a pretty fast go kart :lol2:

Isn't that what the ITR is? :icon16:

Taken from here: http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?ID1=67&ID2=310

0-30 mph 2.49 s 2.05 s
0-40 mph 3.34 s 3.54 s
0-50 mph 5.23 s 4.78 s
0-60 mph 6.53 s 6.10 s
0-70 mph 9.12 s 8.42 s
0-80 mph 11.16 s 10.54 s
0-90 mph 14.25 s 12.93 s
0-100 mph 17.57 s 16.77 s
0-110 mph 21.20 s 20.86 s
0-120 mph 27.98 s 26.17 s
0-130 mph 37.69 s 38.02 s
0-140 mph 52.44 s 63.22 s

Notice how much faster the car with less TQ is, as the speeds get higher? A LOT faster than YOUR car, as a matter of fact Bulldog. The biggest disadvantage is during the low speeds, when TQ is really needed to push/pull the weight of the car. At freeway speeds, in the right gear, that chart above shows that a REAL Type R would WALK your car. You might have a video of a stock Cobalt hitting 147 on the speedo, but there are more videos out there of stock Type R's hitting the 150+ mark on their speedos.

You want a better illustration?

Subtract the time it took to get to 70 from the 140 mark, and you essentially get the 70 to 140mph time of each car. From freeway, to highly illegal speeds.

Check it:

Integra Type R 70 - 140mph: 43.32 secs
Cobalt SS 70 - 140mph: 54.48 secs

That's OVER 11 seconds later! You have ANY idea how far behind that is, at those speeds?


THIS is why people are saying that the car was a rebadged car, and not a real Type R.

You're starting to get real fan-boyish with your Cobalt man. It's a nice car, and all, but when you have to knock on other cars to make yours look better - there's an issue. Kinda "ricer-ish" if you ask me, which should be an insult to you, since you own a "true" SS (and I'm not referring to the Cobalt).

My SRT-4 went 14.1@100mph bonestock. 14.1 > 14.7 and 100mph > 97mph. So..elaborate on how you beat this modded srt-4 from a roll?

one time when i was 4 i stepped on a fly and then i told my dad and he was like good job, now eat it, so i ate it.

one time when i was 4 i stepped on a fly and then i told my dad and he was like good job, now eat it, so i ate it.

Do you have a point?

My SRT-4 went 14.1@100mph bonestock. 14.1 > 14.7 and 100mph > 97mph. So..elaborate on how you beat this modded srt-4 from a roll?

My buddy dropped from 5th to 4th gear. I ran in 3rd. I've already stated that.

Taken from here: http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?ID1=67&ID2=310

0-30 mph 2.49 s 2.05 s
0-40 mph 3.34 s 3.54 s
0-50 mph 5.23 s 4.78 s
0-60 mph 6.53 s 6.10 s
0-70 mph 9.12 s 8.42 s
0-80 mph 11.16 s 10.54 s
0-90 mph 14.25 s 12.93 s
0-100 mph 17.57 s 16.77 s
0-110 mph 21.20 s 20.86 s
0-120 mph 27.98 s 26.17 s
0-130 mph 37.69 s 38.02 s
0-140 mph 52.44 s 63.22 s

Notice how much faster the car with less TQ is, as the speeds get higher? A LOT faster than YOUR car, as a matter of fact Bulldog. The biggest disadvantage is during the low speeds, when TQ is really needed to push/pull the weight of the car. At freeway speeds, in the right gear, that chart above shows that a REAL Type R would WALK your car. You might have a video of a stock Cobalt hitting 147 on the speedo, but there are more videos out there of stock Type R's hitting the 150+ mark on their speedos.

You want a better illustration?

Subtract the time it took to get to 70 from the 140 mark, and you essentially get the 70 to 140mph time of each car. From freeway, to highly illegal speeds.

Check it:

Integra Type R 70 - 140mph: 43.32 secs
Cobalt SS 70 - 140mph: 54.48 secs

That's OVER 11 seconds later! You have ANY idea how far behind that is, at those speeds?


THIS is why people are saying that the car was a rebadged car, and not a real Type R.

You're starting to get real fan-boyish with your Cobalt man. It's a nice car, and all, but when you have to knock on other cars to make yours look better - there's an issue. Kinda "ricer-ish" if you ask me, which should be an insult to you, since you own a "true" SS (and I'm not referring to the Cobalt).


I may have poked fun at a Honda or two, which is no big deal around here seeing that even the Honda owners partake in that. But I never put any ones car down, or ragged on it. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. And don't even bring that fan boy bullshit up.


http://www.cobaltss.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1987

Theres a torque curve for you.

My buddy dropped from 5th to 4th gear. I ran in 3rd. I've already stated that.

Okay, so it wasn't even a legit race..yet you tried playing it off like you wasted a modded SRT-4? Dude..are there even any cobalts in the 13s yet without nitrous??

And don't even bring that fan boy bullshit up.

Then quit acting like it.

Take an example from Brandon (90redgt). His car is a whole LOT faster than yours, all earned by his own perseverance and sweat, yet you never get the impression that he thinks he's top-shit, like the vibe you're giving off.

I am not alone in that last impression.

Then quit acting like it.

Take an example from Brandon (90redgt). His car is a whole LOT faster than yours, all earned by his own perseverance and sweat, yet you never get the impression that he thinks he's top-shit, like the vibe you're giving off.

I am not alone in that last impression.


:iagree:


Although it's not just bulldog, there are more than a few members in here who could use a swift kick in the junk.

"kicks Josh in the nuts"

lol

My roommate/cousin already took care of that for you guys yesterday... bastard...

Okay, so it wasn't even a legit race..yet you tried playing it off like you wasted a modded SRT-4? Dude..are there even any cobalts in the 13s yet without nitrous??

How did I play it off like it was legit. I said in my origional post that he told me he had a boost leak. So I figured I was racing a wounded car and did NOT claim the kill! Now I've found out the real reason he was so slow and I'm still NOT claiming a kill. Damn, why does no one around here fully read the threads before making assumptions.

Then quit acting like it.

Take an example from Brandon (90redgt). His car is a whole LOT faster than yours, all earned by his own perseverance and sweat, yet you never get the impression that he thinks he's top-shit, like the vibe you're giving off.

I am not alone in that last impression.

Seriously dude, I don't give a flying fuck about how you feel about me.

Damn, why does no one around here fully read the threads before making assumptions.

Becuase logic rules in many places, here not being one of them.

Seriously dude, I don't give a flying fuck about how you feel about me.

Watch out man. You're treading in dangerous territory here.

I didn't ban Cassie in our little "drama", because I baited him into cussing me out, and he *seemed* half-joking when he did it.

A few things:

1) If you really don't care about it, why respond at all?
2) If you really don't care about it, why that *tone* in your response?
3) It's not JUST my opinion we're dealing with here. There's mods I correspond with that feel the same way about you - nay - they pointed you out to me - and I wouldn't doubt more than a few members feel the same way. Irregardless, I am telling you to cut the attitude, before it turns into some sort of "my car VS the world" trend that the J-Body guys, and the SRT-4 forums seem to tend to. Go to the Cobalt forums for that.

Alright fellas... let's cool it down.

Shall we continue this in PM's? I hope so. :thumbsup:

This thread has overrun it's course... too much bickering to be usefull. Let's let it die... mkayy.

Becuase logic rules in many places, here not being one of them.

YOU talk about logic? When a car with more than a million dollars' worth of performance, and comfort, isn't worth the price of a high-end SUV? (I believe 55k was your cut-off...)

Quit burying yourself, man.