Indeniable proof

Question.

If all of a sudden there came about some indeniable proof that religion is just myths or tales, what would that do to your beliefs and your faith whatever it may be. Strengthen it, cause chaos, what?

For example,
scenario 1.
A new discovery of numerous ancient text (much like the dead sea scrolls) are found throughout the world which would link and substanciate the claim that all religions came from one or one tale. And that this tale was created by a man to take control over their subjects.

Scenario 2
We get visited (however unlikely) by beings outside our world, that claim we were populated among hundreds through the galaxy by said beings.

there might be other scenarios, but those are the only two that come to mind.

TS out

you know, I never thaught of that. I think I would not believe it, and I would stand by what I believe. I wouldent chang my beliefs cuz of a piece of paper, and if another bieng came to us and said that, I defentaly wouldnot believe them. I would think they were tha antichrist or something. I really dont think a scroll or another bieng is proof one way or tha other....

That's exactly it, religion has such a hold over people that every way out is shot down. Alien visitors? "They're the Antichrist" Undeniable proof in an old scroll? "Written by the Antichrist".

It sounds like a child is arguing almost

all I am saying there is no undeniable proof on this. A scroll or of tha like had to be written by man, right. Well, it is tha opnion of that person who wrote it. Who is to say he is write or wrong. We wernt there at tha time. We cant say it is 100% proof eather way. But it will not change my opnion on what I believe. As far as tha alien, if one comes down and says that to me or us, that does not mean he is right or tellin tha truth. He could be full of it and just tryin to control us himself, So I wouldent believe him either.

Well considering my religion has proof of its own I'm not worrying.

In the Bible, Noah built the ark. Guess what, they found it.

DNA evidence has shown us that Christ was real and walked the Earth.

Evidence and indeniable proof swings both ways people not just in your favor.

See the thing is not all religions could come from one man. Christianity is only 2005 years old. It was formed by Christ's followers. So put against other religions like Jewdism then Christianity is rather young. So not all religions could come from one man and that scenario is out the window.

As for the other thing I'd like proof of that. If we were some science experiment then show me. Show me on other planets where you made people like us and how you did it. Saying it won't make it true.

thats what I am tryin to say, Just did not have tha right words...

Question.

If all of a sudden there came about some indeniable proof that religion is just myths or tales, what would that do to your beliefs and your faith whatever it may be. Strengthen it, cause chaos, what?

For example,
scenario 1.
A new discovery of numerous ancient text (much like the dead sea scrolls) are found throughout the world which would link and substanciate the claim that all religions came from one or one tale. And that this tale was created by a man to take control over their subjects.

Scenario 2
We get visited (however unlikely) by beings outside our world, that claim we were populated among hundreds through the galaxy by said beings.

there might be other scenarios, but those are the only two that come to mind.

TS out


What if ?????

If your faith is just based what you have read in books and not based on any of your own experience with the one you have faith in then anything may sway you from your faith.

Hey everybody. Jesus is over here. Come and see.

hes not offering proof, he's asking what you would do if you were faced with proof. its a hypothetical.

it is a big "what if" game, but at least do him the favor of playing along, or dont respond at all. especially with the "my religion has undeniable proof that it is real" nonsense. i mean really.

christ was a real man. everyone knows that. he was crucified for for what he believed and, as it turns out, was a pretty fly guy. but DNA evidence doesnt make him the son of God. if anything else, it takes him even more out of myth and into reality.

and yeah, they found a big boat that turns out to date back to about the same time the "flood" was supposed to happen, but i hate to burst your bubble, it certainly wasnt big enough to hold two of every animal on earth, and given the dimensions in the bible, every species on earth would have had less than a cubic inch of space.

thats all hardly undeniable truth. so just play along.

ok. if this was to be true I still would not believe it. I would stand my ground...

it is a big "what if" game, but at least do him the favor of playing along, or dont respond at all. especially with the "my religion has undeniable proof that it is real" nonsense. i mean really.

What nonsense? Simple knowledge of my religion shot scenerio 1 out of the water. I don't think that's all nonsense. Also, my religion deals with Christ, he was real, what more "undeniable proof" do you want? The rest is all up to faith, which I'm proud to have.

Hey everybody. Jesus is over here. Come and see.Where? Get out of my way, out out, out damn it I'm a mod, out of the way.
ummm, You mean that piece of toast with the smudged jelly? :icon16:

Seriously, I think some of you are reading too much into this or have misread what I was trying to say/write. I am not saying I have proof or that there is proof, I am saying what if all of a sudden came undeniable proof that all the religions came from one story and that story was a myth/tale. Would that put your faith in jeopardy or would you continue having faith and believing.

Now I will agree with some that no matter what is shown or learned (if any of my two scenarios were to happen) that people would continue to believe in their faith or maybe not, this is why I asked the question to get a feeling of such a scenario. Now, one cannot dispute the fact that if Jesus of Nazareth were to happen today that most would either put him in a nut house or call him a antichrist or worse. Back then, the Jews did not believe in the messiah and thus led to the events that got the man cruxified. Whos to say that history will not repeat itself.

Now what I am about to say could be another thread, but I'll add it to this one. Christians/Catholics believe in the coming of Christ, but the way I see it, anyone or anything that comes to us claiming they are Christ will be shot down as a nut job. So will the prophecy ever be fulfilled or will the story/coming continue forever?

If I were a religous man and believed in my faith, I do not think nothing shown to me would deter me from my religion or practice of it. This is the reason why I posed the original (hypothetical) question, to see if I am right about this assumption.

TS out

all I am saying there is no undeniable proof on this. A scroll or of tha like had to be written by man, right. Well, it is tha opnion of that person who wrote it. Who is to say he is write or wrong. We wernt there at tha time. We cant say it is 100% proof eather way.

the bible was also written by man.. which would mean it is also "tha opnion of that person who wrote it" in this case people...

Well considering my religion has proof of its own I'm not worrying.

where?


In the Bible, Noah built the ark. Guess what, they found it.

already said... it doesnt match up to the bible, only the time period.. im sure that there was more than one boat built at the time

DNA evidence has shown us that Christ was real and walked the Earth.

yes, i believe he was real... but the son of god? thats not proven

also, sidhartha (sp?) was also real... but that doesnt prove that budists are correct either..

As for the other thing I'd like proof of that. If we were some science experiment then show me. Show me on other planets where you made people like us and how you did it. Saying it won't make it true.

thats the exact same thing im saying about religion... id like proof of him.. but no one has that do they? there is also no proof that he doesnt exist which is why there are so many topics about religion.. but practically everything you said could be said against religion as well

imo, the bible is a book of legends... obviously, there definately are some factual things in the bible, like the existence of Jesus... but like you said... this was 2005 years ago... natural wonders could have easily been mistaken for acts of God just because they could not be explained...

What nonsense? Simple knowledge of my religion shot scenerio 1 out of the water. I don't think that's all nonsense. Also, my religion deals with Christ, he was real, what more "undeniable proof" do you want? The rest is all up to faith, which I'm proud to have.

as i already said.. buddah was real too.. i guess thats undeniable proof that buddism is the right way to go as well..

the whole thread is WHAT IF... yet you keep saying.. no im right, that could never happen.. truthfully, i find you very narrow minded... we are not trying to prove you wrong, we are just asking what would u do if it happened..

its like us saying.. what would u do, if you totalled your car tomorrow?? ... even if you werent going to drive tomorrow and leave the car parked in the garage all day, i doubt u would respond with the same mindframe... its a WHAT IF as it probably wont happen... since this is the Philosophizing section..

Where? Get out of my way, out out, out damn it I'm a mod, out of the way.
ummm, You mean that piece of toast with the smudged jelly? :icon16:

Seriously, I think some of you are reading too much into this or have misread what I was trying to say/write. I am not saying I have proof or that there is proof, I am saying what if all of a sudden came undeniable proof that all the religions came from one story and that story was a myth/tale. Would that put your faith in jeopardy or would you continue having faith and believing.

I think I did answer that in a round about way. (or at least attempted too) When you put your faith in a book and that book is proven wrong then you will loose your faith. If you put your faith is someone you actually know (I mean really know and not just know of.) then what can shake that faith? The book then becomes a tool for understanding and not the object of your faith.

Now I will agree with some that no matter what is shown or learned (if any of my two scenarios were to happen) that people would continue to believe in their faith or maybe not, this is why I asked the question to get a feeling of such a scenario. Now, one cannot dispute the fact that if Jesus of Nazareth were to happen today that most would either put him in a nut house or call him a antichrist or worse. Back then, the Jews did not believe in the messiah and thus led to the events that got the man cruxified. Whos to say that history will not repeat itself.

Who is to say? Depends on who/what you place your faith in. If you place your faith in Christ then he is the one who said history won't repeat itself in that situation.

Now what I am about to say could be another thread, but I'll add it to this one. Christians/Catholics believe in the coming of Christ, but the way I see it, anyone or anything that comes to us claiming they are Christ will be shot down as a nut job. So will the prophecy ever be fulfilled or will the story/coming continue forever?

People would treat him as a nut job and rightfully so. Especially if you are a Christian. Will Christ come again? Yes. Not as a man and not in secret. Paraphrase from the Bible {Some will come to you and say "The lord is over here" or "The lord is in the mountains come and see." Don't be fooled.} It's written in prophecy about Him and spoken by Him in His own words that He will come again. Everyone will see Him at the same time when he comes.(If you believe in that sort of thing)

If I were a religous man and believed in my faith, I do not think nothing shown to me would deter me from my religion or practice of it. This is the reason why I posed the original (hypothetical) question, to see if I am right about this assumption.

TS out

I am a religous man(big suprise huh?) and I do believe in my faith.Or should I say I have faith in my belief? If I didn't it wouldn't really be faith would it? It would simply be religion. That's the big problem with a lot of religions. Too much faith is placed on them and not enough is placed upon the reason for that religion. Religion becomes the object of peoples faith just as the Bible becomes the object of peoples faith. If either are proven wrong then their faith is shattered.


Anyway....This is a good subject. Hopefully I haven't mucked it up too much.:smile:

I will say that if someone or something gave us undeniable proof then I know I would be like "Dude.. thats gay" and not believe in it anymore obviously. But this has to be like proof that is totally undeniable which in this what if case would be. So I would not believe anymore.

Well considering my religion has proof of its own I'm not worrying.

In the Bible, Noah built the ark. Guess what, they found it.

Also for the Bible, as mentioned before it was written by a person, but there was a committee that chose what stories made it into the bible and which ones didnt.

They found a big boat, but they say that there is proof that there was a man that put all his belongings in a big boat and sailed down the river during the flood season. They say that is why many religions have a similar story of a great flood and a great big boat.

DNA evidence has shown us that Christ was real and walked the Earth.

Sure there may have been a guy named Jesus Christ, but there is another person who did almost the same miracles as jesus did, but alot earlier, the name escapes me now, but they say that Jesus may have been based off of this guy.


Evidence and indeniable proof swings both ways people not just in your favor.

See the thing is not all religions could come from one man. Christianity is only 2005 years old. It was formed by Christ's followers. So put against other religions like Jewdism then Christianity is rather young. So not all religions could come from one man and that scenario is out the window.

Yeh but try to think of it like the whole starting of the world as a big continent and everyone came from the middle east (a well known theory.) They all split up, and over many many many years the skin colors changed, the languages changed, the accents changed, and the features changed. Now apply that to religion. Imagine one major religion, and they seperated and as time went on, more and more changes came between them. So although Christianity didnt come from Jewdism, it indirectly still came from a main religion.

As for the other thing I'd like proof of that. If we were some science experiment then show me. Show me on other planets where you made people like us and how you did it. Saying it won't make it true.

Im pretty sure this is a hypothetical situation, but lets say they did prove with a scientific experiment how this all worked out, how would you feel then?


Im sorry to break apart and try to analyze everything you've said, and im sure what i've said will make very little difference to your religious beliefs, as would anything you said about my religion (Sikh), or as a matter of fact anyone with any amount of proof, I just thought i'd post it up anyways.

yes tha bible was written by several different men, and has been proven that it has been changed by tha catholic (sp). well not changed, but pages and books taken out by tha catholics. And I donot believe every thing to a "t" in tha bible. But I do believe in God and Jesus christ. I do believe in his teachings. I have seen true mirricles and I have experianced them personaly. Things that would be unexplaneable by science. nothing can change my mind. Ever. And if real proof was to pop up, I wouldent change my opnion. I would rather live a happy, love filled life full of hope, than be miserable and lost. I will not turn my back on my faith!!!!

I do believe in God and Jesus christ. I do believe in his teachings. I have seen true mirricles and I have experianced them personaly. Things that would be unexplaneable by science. nothing can change my mind. Ever. And if real proof was to pop up, I wouldent change my opnion. I would rather live a happy, love filled life full of hope, than be miserable and lost. I will not turn my back on my faith!!!!

:thumbsup:

Tell it sister!!!

i dont have a religion/belief.. but if such proof came out i can honestly say i would go out, get drunk an do some dui - dancing under the influence.

Question.

If all of a sudden there came about some indeniable proof that religion is just myths or tales, what would that do to your beliefs and your faith whatever it may be. Strengthen it, cause chaos, what?

It would do nothing to my beliefs. I already believe it's all a bunch of stories made up by man.


Let's turn the tables. For all those who don't believe, answer this.
What would you do if God showed up tomorrow and said <enter any religion> was completely %100 true?

If he showed up as a man or in a body of a man, he would either be

1-shot on sight,
2-handcuffed and thrown in a mental institution
3-extradited to Iran, China, Israel.

Seriously, I do not think it would matter, cause one religion would argue its not true, another would say its the antichrist etc etc.

Its a never ending cycle.

TS out

i feel that you people are taking this too litteraly... you need to open up your minds and think about what is being said...

if there was UNDENIABLE proof, meaning it 100% disproved any religion.. then of course it would make completely no sense to still believe it... we are talking about if it were a proven fact...

and it goes the other way arround too.. he never said that if god came down as a "human".. he said, if God came to earth and he proved undeniably that he was real, and that there was only one true religion... well then in that case, the obvious choice would to belive in it since it would be a FACT that it was real..

which is why i now realize that this is probably a stupid and pretty much pointless thread... the obvious answer, if these people actually understood what was being said, would to be not believe in their former belief... there would be no point in doing it...

you know, I never thaught of that. I think I would not believe it, and I would stand by what I believe. I wouldent chang my beliefs cuz of a piece of paper, and if another bieng came to us and said that, I defentaly wouldnot believe them. I would think they were tha antichrist or something. I really dont think a scroll or another bieng is proof one way or tha other....


You wouldn't believe a scroll that says it's all wrong, but you'll believe a book that says it's all correct?? :screwy:

I guess this thread proves that most people have made up their minds one way or another no matter what happens. Oh well, it's still fun to talk about it.


I almost forgot to answer my own question:

What would you do if God showed up tomorrow and said <enter any religion> was completely %100 true?

I would probably say something like "Oh my God, I'll be damned"
Hopefully he has a sense of humor and we'd both have a good laugh!

You wouldn't believe a scroll that says it's all wrong, but you'll believe a book that says it's all correct?? :screwy:

There is more to the belief than a book.

There's not much logic or reason in most religious beliefs, so why would one expect someone who believes those things to change when presented with something that logically proves their beliefs to be incorrect.

I swear some people just skip over other post before writting their own post.

Sorry.

Let's turn the tables. For all those who don't believe, answer this.
What would you do if God showed up tomorrow and said <enter any religion> was completely %100 true?

I would certainly believe in the god, but at that points its not faith its just hey he's there. no denying it.

I don't think I would be scared though. I personally think a god (who is responsible for life) wouldn't not be so narrow minded as to punish people for being who they are. Good or Evil in the end its all biological.

What kind of god would repremand (sp?) me for instance for believing in facts, and not some book with a bunch of legends in it? It is human nature to believe what they know exists.

What kind of God would exclude people who can't read a bible and follow its teachings? What kind of God would exclude majority of the worlds population for not having access to bible or on in their language? Religion must be more then a tangible thing it must be within everyone.

What happens to people with serious mental illness? It is my feeling that a person who has no real inner thoughts can go to heaven or hell (whatever the after life is) then why couldnt an animal that might very well have more complex thoughts then a handicap person?

What happened to people before these religions?

These are just some of the questions i asked myself whenever I was choosing to think for myself about religion in general. As of now I just believe in A god. An all inclusive being must be out there.

The human mind is to weak contemplate the beginning and the end. People who cant stand NOT understanding, turn to religion for an explanation.

For me to have a religion (one in which I believed in a god) it would have to make complete and perfect sense to me.

If this post sounds like I'm rambling its because I have a million thoughts about religion, and its hard to explain them in a few sentences.

Ok, so you believe that "a" God exists. Good place to start, did the same thing myself. Now ask yourself if this God is someone that you can know or have an experience with in this lifetime. If he/she is, proceed. Now if this is the case, is this God represented in any of the world's religions? Not sure, fair enough. What are the differences in the major world religions? After some study you will find that there is only one world religion where salvation (i.e. a place in the afterlife/heaven) is a gift, and not something that is earned by merit(good works). Ah, quite the distinction. All of the world's religions are based on rules and/or conditions that must be followed in order to gain the approval of God, except Christianity.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no man can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So God sent his Son, Jesus, to live our life, but as no man had or ever could, in perfection, only to die a horrendous death. In doing so, he took our sins and imperfections from us, so we could one day be in the presence of God.

Now, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and lived and died for your sins, you will make an active effort not to sin, because you don't wish to hurt someone who already suffered so much for you. Does that mean you no longer sin? No, that's not possible.

There is no empirical evidence that proves Jesus is the Son of God. You don't have to believe, that's where faith comes in. If God wanted, he could force you to believe, but that takes away the free will that is at the core of our being.

To say that a religion would have to make complete and perfect sense to you to believe it, is being a bit close-minded. When your take a step are you always careful that the floor is solid? No, you assume so, because of what other experiences have taught you. The physics behind why the floor is solid makes complete and perfect sense to a small percentage of the population.

If you want explanations to all your questions before you have faith in something, you will never have faith. There will always be things that are unexplained in this reality, as I believe God has intended.

I have spoken to many people who are stuck on small apparent inconsistencies that they find in Christianity, and refuse to believe because of such trivialities. But such people focus on these things because they do not want to feel compelled to believe. With these small arguments they can rationalize to themselves that Christianity isn't true. If everything about the human experience isn't explained in clear detail, you don't have to change your life, live by certain principles.

Many people also don't believe in global warming. The overwhelming evidence, and vast majority of the scientific community indicates that it is a real problem, but people who don't want to believe it exists inflate small inconsistencies in a minuscule amount of data, and thus it must not be so.

Well, what do you really believe? What does the core of your being tell you, the truth is there, everyone has it...

Why wouldn't I have faith. I believe in A god, and I have faith that A god exist. My faith doesn't have to be formed by the ideas of a religion.

My MAIN point is why would god punish the the nature of the people he created? I believe I am a good person, but through my reasoning I don't believe in christianity. When I think about where existence itself came from I have to think there was someone or something (a god) that started everything. Why would a christian god punish me for thinking with facts? I would certainly believe an all knowing all inclusive being would take that into account.

Another point is that if the same poeple that believe in christianity grew up around any other religion a large majority of them would probably follow THAT religion. Why would god punish someone for the way they were raised?

I think what happens in the afterlife is already imbedded (sp?) in every person despite who they are. This just seems a little more "open-minded" then thinking that one religion which neither of which encompases majority of the worlds population would have the right answers. just my :2cents:

My MAIN point is why would god punish the the nature of the people he created? I believe I am a good person, but through my reasoning I don't believe in christianity. Why would a christian god punish me for thinking with facts?

It doesn't make sense does it? We use the logic "He" supposedly gave us to come to a conclusion and then he's going to hold it against us?

When I think about where existence itself came from I have to think there was someone or something (a god) that started everything.

Do you ever wonder were a god came from?


Another point is that if the same people that believe in christianity grew up around any other religion a large majority of them would probably follow THAT religion.

Of course they would. It's just a matter of where and when you were born or raised.


I think what happens in the afterlife is already imbedded (sp?) in every person despite who they are.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Care to elaborate?

I'm not sure I understand this one. Care to elaborate?

Its kind of hard to put into words. you could sum it up by saying that all living things already have a fate despite how they live their life. Atleast this is my feeling

I say all living things because I believe in evolution, so for my theory to work everything that is living must have an afterlfie. The first living thing would have had an afterlife. I'm sure god didn't just pick a point in the evolution of life and say "here you can have souls now".

In that case I don't believe there is a cut and dry heaven and hell (unless a single celled organism can do evil and good?). All I can figure is there is one all encompasing afterlife/reincarnation (whatever it maybe) for every living thing. It makes the most sense for me.

Proof (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451529065/qid=1127022902/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5112915-5769536?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Comes in a handy paperback form.

You know what? People are going to believe whatever they want. And there is nothing you can do, no matter what, to prove their beliefs right or wrong, because anyone can deny anything, if they want to disbelieve so badly. For example, just because they found an old wooden boat and called it Noah's Ark, or proved through DNA that there was some pothead named Jesus Christ two-thousand years ago, doesn't mean that everything else that Christianity says is true. I don't mean to single out Christianity, but it's the religion most commonly practiced in my country, and the one I have the most experience dealing with.

The problem with most all Western religions is that they just doesn't encourage open-mindedness. They tell you what to do and how to do it, and in Christianity's case, threatens you with eternal damnation if you don't. As Carl Marx said, religion is the opiate of the masses. For people of below-average intelligence (the masses), religion is great. Being open-minded is scary, and religion makes it so that you don't have to be. This, combined with a complete and utter lack of solid proof to back up the claims of most religious texts, is why I believe that religion is, at its core, merely a tool used by those in power for controlling entire populations, and it's a very effective one at that. I will never practice any Western religion, ever. I have far too much dignity, self-respect, and independence to whore myself out to a 2000-year old storybook.

I apologize if I sound like a pretentious asshole, but when it comes to touchy subjects like this one, I prefer to just be blunt and get it over with.

Proof (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451529065/qid=1127022902/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5112915-5769536?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

Comes in a handy paperback form.

Proof? Try more of a sciencetific theory.

Now I'll agree that evolution is real, in a way, because we see it everyday. If I go to a colder climate my body will adjust over time to where I'm use to it. People over time evolve to live to their environment.

The thing is, we didn't come from the monkey. That part of evolution is silly.


You people want proof though? Well here it is.

If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

What are the odds that billions and billions of years ago there was a swirl of gases, high concentration of matter, whatever you believe suddenly exploded into what we call the universe? Also, where did these gases/matter come from?
Sure, scientist say everything started with the big bang, wrong. Even science shows that there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? What reaction could have caused an explotion?

Lets move on though shall we?

What are the odds that this planet which we call Earth will be created from this big bang and be throw out with a the Sun? What are the odds that this Earth just so happened was able to be thrown just the right distance from this Sun so it's not too hot or cold but just right to where life can live?

Want to go a little farther though?

What are the odds that on this planet Earth a series of volcanic eruptions went off all of a sudden to shoot the gases that are needed for life to live off of?

Lets go on though want to because this one here is a big one?

What are the odds that in the water of this young planet an electrical charge built up just enough to hit the water where the minerals in it, along with the water, were just right to react with a type of chemical/fussion reaction where the first cell was formed?
What are also the odds that this electrical charge in the water was just right that in this reaction the first DNA code was construded? As science has already shown the DNA code is very long and complex with several billion strands of code. What are the odds a bolt of lighting in the water created the first life/cell/DNA coding needed for life to evolve/live/reproduce/ect?

There's more though so don't stop yet.

What are the odds that after millions of years of division the cells were able to form together and form the first single celled organisms? What are the odds that through "evolution" these cells were able to divide and keep dividing into the different species?
What are the odds that after a million more years the organisms moved onto the land and through "evolution" and cell division the organisms divided into the kingdoms of life?
What are the odds that after all these millions and millions of years the first single cell was able to divide and through evolution into the billions of lifeforms from simple house plants to human beings?

Well, I'm no math teacher but the odds of that all happening are out of this world. You may laugh at me for looking for guidence in a "2000 year old storybook" but I laugh at you for actually believing this all "just happened."

Muscletang: You're looking at this the wrong way. You're looking at the world in a human-centered view; in other words, you are assuming that humans were just there, and the world was created around them. Wrong. Humans are less than a tiny speck on the timeline of the entire universe. The universe, the galaxy, the Earth, and the atmosphere were all created FAR, FAR before life ever existed on this planet. If there been a slightly different electric current in the water, or if the volcanoes had shot up a different mixture of gases, then we wouldn't all be humans right now; we'd be something entirely different. I know how scary a thought it is, but with enlightment comes the loss of innocence. The truth of the world, of our past, present, and future, is a scary and difficult thing to face, and for those too feint of heart and weak of mind to face it, Jesus Christ is their sedative. The Bible tells you what you want to hear, and people who are too stupid to know any better will ALWAYS believe what they want to hear. Ignorance is bliss. And that's really all that Christianity is: a cover-up of the truth, an "opiate of the masses", to preserve the sanity and sanctity of our society. As much as I detest it, I realize and accept that Christianity is a necessity in our society. People have questions, questions that need answers, and religion offers easy, painless answers to those questions. But for those of us who have the ability, the motivation, and the strength to seek a higher truth, to expand our minds, and to become truly enlightened, Christianity has no place in our lives whatsoever.

Muscletang: You're looking at this the wrong way. You're looking at the world in a human-centered view; in other words, you are assuming that humans were just there, and the world was created around them.

I don't remember saying anything like that. Unless you're jumping to a conclusion since I am a Christian.

Wrong. Humans are less than a tiny speck on the timeline of the entire universe. The universe, the galaxy, the Earth, and the atmosphere were all created FAR, FAR before life ever existed on this planet.

That's true and I'll admit it. It even says so in the Bible. So there's no argument here.

If there been a slightly different electric current in the water, or if the volcanoes had shot up a different mixture of gases, then we wouldn't all be humans right now; we'd be something entirely different.

That's the thing I'm asking which was never answered. What are the odds that everything came together perfectly to create life and for it to evolve into us?

I know how scary a thought it is, but with enlightment comes the loss of innocence. The truth of the world, of our past, present, and future, is a scary and difficult thing to face, and for those too feint of heart and weak of mind to face it, Jesus Christ is their sedative.

Is that so? Well I feel I feel stronger and less feint of heart with Jesus than without him when facing the world but ok.

The Bible tells you what you want to hear, and people who are too stupid to know any better will ALWAYS believe what they want to hear. Ignorance is bliss. And that's really all that Christianity is: a cover-up of the truth, an "opiate of the masses", to preserve the sanity and sanctity of our society.

What truth is this that the Bible is covering up?
That humans are nothing but a hickup in the gene pool?
That our lives are pointless and meaningless when put into the big picture?
That when you get down to it, you don't mean a damn to anybody or anything in this world or universe?

As much as I detest it, I realize and accept that Christianity is a necessity in our society. People have questions, questions that need answers, and religion offers easy, painless answers to those questions.

Is that so?

This "painless answer" being that we were created for a reason? That humans actually have a purpose?

But for those of us who have the ability, the motivation, and the strength to seek a higher truth, to expand our minds, and to become truly enlightened, Christianity has no place in our lives whatsoever.

This "higher truth" that only the "strong" can learn is that you're nothing, people are nothing?
And Christianity has no place in our society because the sooner people learn there is no God, they have no purpose, their lives are meaningless, and this place we call the universe was created on a stroke of luck the better they'll be and they'll know this "higher truth" and their minds will be expanded?

Proof? Try more of a sciencetific theory.

Evolution is actually considered a scientific fact. A theory indicates that it is true because it can not or has not been proven untrue. The entire study of biology relies on evolution being true. If evolution was false, biology would be set back over a hundred years and we might as we believe birds and bats are closely related because they both have wings.

Now I'll agree that evolution is real, in a way, because we see it everyday. If I go to a colder climate my body will adjust over time to where I'm use to it. People over time evolve to live to their environment.

Nope, that's adaptation and isn't related to genetics.

The thing is, we didn't come from the monkey. That part of evolution is silly.

You're right. We came from the apes. The apes came from the monkeys.


You people want proof though? Well here it is.

If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

If it didn't happen we wouldn't be around to think about it now would we? To put things into other words: Have you ever driven home from work and though to yourself "Wow! I saw license plate A6G 18Z today! What are the odds of that happening?"

What are the odds that ...

Lets move on though shall we?

What are the odds that this planet which we call Earth will be created from this big bang and be throw out with a the Sun? What are the odds that this Earth just so happened was able to be thrown just the right distance from this Sun so it's not too hot or cold but just right to where life can live?

Want to go a little farther though?
...
were just right to react with a type of chemical/fussion reaction where the first cell was formed? ...
As science has already shown the DNA code is very long and complex with several billion strands of code.

There's more though so don't stop yet....

What are the odds that after a million more years the organisms moved onto the land and through "evolution" and cell division the organisms divided into the kingdoms of life?

You must have been asleep in science class or they were probably teaching some "intellegent design" rubbish. More on that later.

Fusion/Fission has nothing to do with the chemical reactions that took place in the ocean. Fusion/Fission is sub-atomic and occurs naturally inside the atoms in a star or syntheticly in a nuclear reactor (fission at this point). Whoops, you're asleep again.

The kingdoms of life (not the idea) were not established after the animals evolved and suddenly decided to sort themselves into groups. it happened while life was evolving. And, just like division, more often than not you have remainders, irrational numbers, and even zeros in the denominator.

Intellegent design (and this is something that really irks me) is nothing more that an attempt to discredit evolution. People claim that sure, they believe that evolution might be possible on a small scale, but evolving from monkeys, developing eyes, the origin of DNA, etc. is just far to complex to be natural and therefore must indicate a designer.

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer. The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light. It can happen in a short time frame considering how long it took to cells to start grouping together.

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct. What does this say about the creator? Find me something from any religious text, (the original versions and not some modern rewritten rubbish to cover tracks) that gives a reason, or even a mention, for this and I'll give you that point.

This relates to kman10587's point regarding "the masses" because most people (at least in North America (and this is a fact)) don't understand or don't want to understand science. Anything those scientists do "is fine and dandy so long as the quality of my TV gets better. But when they start threating the credibility of my religion, God (mind the pun) help them."


You may laugh at me for looking for guidence in a "2000 year old storybook" but I laugh at you for actually believing this all "just happened."

Well at least we're both having a good time. :biggrin:

heres the way I look at it...

God gave me free will, a conscience and morals. He gave me the ability to rationalize. I use my morals and my conscience to make my decisions. I don't need to worship god in order to know what to do. I understand the difference between right and wrong without worship, and I do my best to live an honest life and resist temptations for evil. I treat people fairly. I donate when I can afford it. I don't steal anymore. I did as a kid, but I've grown out of it; it makes me feel bad so I won't steal. I don't need a book to tell me how to live. I believe whole heartedly that the life I choose to live is fair enough. When I make mistakes I feel guilty. I don't need a bible to tell me what I did was wrong. I don't need to be baptised for my sins. I forgive myself. And to me that's all that matters. I live righteously by my own will, and if there is a god who doesn't think that is good enough, then I don't want any part of his religion. Send me to hell motherfucker, I suffer too. Am I supposed to devote my life to god just because he doesn't choose to smite me? Hey God, since you choose day by day not to fuck me up the ass, why don't I suck your dick.... I don't think so. That is not how a religion should work in my eyes. I am absolutely firm on my own belief system, and I think any common sense having "God" would agree that I'm doing just fine. Which is WHY, when the aliens come down and provide me UNDENIABLE truth, this is what I would say....


"Cool.... now I know."

then I would post a thread about it on AF, and watch all the die hard believers keep on believing in something that they simply just WANT to believe in. Undeniable is undeniable. Faith is blind. One who has faith is not swayed by truth.


Let me say this as a disclaimer:

I do not think of christians as stupid, or wrong. I simply feel that they have the ability to believe something which can't be proven. I have that ability only when I get a gut feeling. Christianity does not provide that for me. So for those who believe.... more power to you. When the proof comes you will hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil. Just like a monkey. Because thats where we came from. monkeys.

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer.

Nah, your right, irreducable complexity just kinda happens. You haven't heard of entropy by chance have you?

The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light.

You have no real concept of biological development do you? I can't imagine someone, even with just a high school biology background trying to make this argument

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct.

I forgot that most religions indicate that God made everything perfect.

Darwin himself suggested that in the near future, with further archeological exploration, the transitional species that his theory hinged on would be discovered, and to this day not a single such species has been found.

Nah, your right, irreducable complexity just kinda happens. You haven't heard of entropy by chance have you?

You have no real concept of biological development do you? I can't imagine someone, even with just a high school biology background trying to make this argument

I forgot that most religions indicate that God made everything perfect.

Darwin himself suggested that in the near future, with further archeological exploration, the transitional species that his theory hinged on would be discovered, and to this day not a single such species has been found.


Yawn.



Bada bing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)

So you believe in physics but not the basis of biology? Interesting.

Irreducable complexity, by the way, assumes the structures function has not change from the time it was developed.

Bada bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Evolution_of_eyes)

To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.

Despite the precision and complexity of the eye, computer models of eye evolution, developed by Dan-Erik Nilsson and Susanne Pelger, demonstrated that a primitive optical sense organ could evolve into a complex human-like eye within a reasonable period (less than a million years) simply through small mutations and natural selection.

Of course it's hard to imagine a high school student being able to make that statement. Expecially if they were educated in the state of Kansas; that is a whole different topic that belongs in the political section though.

Bada boom. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil#Misconceptions)

When Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species was first published, the fossil record was poorly known, and the claim that there was a lack of transitional fossils was perfectly reasonable. However, the discovery of Archaeopteryx only two years later was seen as a stunning triumph for Darwin's theory of common descent. Similarly, Othniel Charles Marsh provided groundbreaking evidence of transitional fossils in the evolution of horses.


No transitional species? What scientists may call male Bos taurus scat, the layman would call BS.

What else ya got?

You're right. We came from the apes. The apes came from the monkeys.

Well then if that's true where are the hard facts? We have apes and monkeys running around and we have humans. Obviously there was a creature(s) in between to link the two. Where are they? The only thing I can possible think of is bigfoot but that's a whole different thread and story.

If it didn't happen we wouldn't be around to think about it now would we? To put things into other words: Have you ever driven home from work and though to yourself "Wow! I saw license plate A6G 18Z today! What are the odds of that happening?"

If you would have read the rest of it you would have seen my point.


You must have been asleep in science class or they were probably teaching some "intellegent design" rubbish. More on that later.

Fusion/Fission has nothing to do with the chemical reactions that took place in the ocean. Fusion/Fission is sub-atomic and occurs naturally inside the atoms in a star or syntheticly in a nuclear reactor (fission at this point). Whoops, you're asleep again.

You must have been the one asleep. Fusion means "to put together" and fission means "to break apart." Now atomic fusion and fission is on the atomic level like what you talked about.

This brings me back to what some scientist say a type of fusion occured for the first cells to form.


The kingdoms of life (not the idea) were not established after the animals evolved and suddenly decided to sort themselves into groups. it happened while life was evolving. And, just like division, more often than not you have remainders, irrational numbers, and even zeros in the denominator.

So we have kingdoms of live, some that aren't related what so ever, that came from one cell. You'd think they would have found evidence of this by now.

Intellegent design (and this is something that really irks me) is nothing more that an attempt to discredit evolution. People claim that sure, they believe that evolution might be possible on a small scale, but evolving from monkeys, developing eyes, the origin of DNA, etc. is just far to complex to be natural and therefore must indicate a designer.

It just depends on what you believe. DNA, the blue print for life. Either you believe there was a higher power that created it. Or you can believe that a electrical charge that was just right reacted with the molecules in water with certain elements to chemical react and through reactions and fusion blah blah blah BAM we have the blue print of life.

First off, there is nothing, NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, that means complexity indicates an designer. The development of a complex eye is a relatively straightforward process once a cell is receptive to light. It can happen in a short time frame considering how long it took to cells to start grouping together.

So we have a group of cells, expose them to light, and we get the eye? Interesting view there.

Secondly, there is a lot of unsuccessful, poorly evolved creatures that were unable to survive and became extinct. What does this say about the creator? Find me something from any religious text, (the original versions and not some modern rewritten rubbish to cover tracks) that gives a reason, or even a mention, for this and I'll give you that point.

Give of few examples of poorly evolved creatures. Also, what does it say about the creator? Things die, so what?

Also, I'd like to point out, many people think the modern Bible is "re-written" it's not. Today's Bible is 97% the same as it was during the time of Jesus.

The other 3% is stuff like "Jesus walked and danced on the road" changed to "Jesus skipped on the road."

This relates to kman10587's point regarding "the masses" because most people (at least in North America (and this is a fact)) don't understand or don't want to understand science. Anything those scientists do "is fine and dandy so long as the quality of my TV gets better. But when they start threating the credibility of my religion, God (mind the pun) help them."

Oh I understand science, in fact in debates like this you have to. The thing is science can't explain everything.

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from?
Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

Oh, by the way, nobody has told me the odds yet.

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from? Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

Scientists don't know where the big bang came from. The laws of physics and thermodynamics break down nano-seconds before reaching the Big Bang. Scientists have no idea what caused it. The only real explanation I have heard were by some physicists that hypothesize there was a "quantum fluctuation in nothingness" which caused the Big Bang. Gee, that's a whole lot more believable than God :silly:

Oh, by the way, nobody has told me the odds yet.

There is less than a 1 in 10^282(million trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) chance that a body (planet) would form, being capable of supporting life absent divine intervention.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/design_evidences/200404_probabilities_for_life_on_earth.shtml

also see:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/design_evidences/200406_fine_tuning_for_life_on_earth.shtml

Calculating the odds and trying to convince someone with big numbers only serves to sway those sitting on the fence. What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week? No? You probably wouldn't unless it happened to you. If it does, surprise, you're one lucky SOB! :D

For someone who claims to understand science, you seem to know little regarding evolution. It's not a linear process. There are transitional species that have been found, which have flatly denied in this thread. I'm not just talking about some half-dinosaur/half-bird fossil either. Here is a list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_%28genus%29) of at least 12 (that's right, twelve) know species of animals (yes, that includes us) that belong to the Homo genus. Go back to the Hominidae family section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae) and look at an even larger list of animals closely related to us. Notice that that is a list of known species, of which fossils or living specimens have been found. The evolution of a new species does not classify the species it evolved from as extinct.
Bigfoot, a.k.a. Homo sapien in a rubber suit, is not on the list. Sorry.

This is getting stupid. I'm not going to go into advanced biology on an automotive message board. You either understand how evolution works, or you don't. It's not easy to understand. But if you don't understand it, that's okay - God created us anyways.

This "higher truth" that only the "strong" can learn is that you're nothing, people are nothing?
And Christianity has no place in our society because the sooner people learn there is no God, they have no purpose, their lives are meaningless, and this place we call the universe was created on a stroke of luck the better they'll be and they'll know this "higher truth" and their minds will be expanded?

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yeah, the odds of the universe being created the way it was are very minimal, but that's how it happened. The difference between science and religion is not in how believable it is, it's in whether or not it can be proven. Science can be proven with scientific facts. The facts are there. To really understand them, though, you probably need to take some college-level scientific courses. The thing is, not everyone goes to college. College costs money, college takes effort, and college requires intellect. So, you have this majority of people, who don't go to college, who don't understand what all the "nerds" are talking about, who, nevertheless, need something to give their lives purpose and meaning. And what is that something? God. We are futile, we are pointless, we are no better off than a lizard on a rock, awaiting death. You either have the strength and the intellect to understand that, or you don't.

If you really don't believe me, look at higher-ups in religion itself. The church has been persecuting scientists and philosophers since the 1500's. It would be too bad if people were to actually start thinking in a way other than what the Bible says. They obviously have something to hide.

Quite honestly, I'm sick of beating my head against a brick wall by arguing with you. I have no chance of getting through to you; you're far too blinded by now. So, I'm done with this crap.

First of all I want to say this post is going great, and its interesting to hear so many different views. I can't spend all day quoting people, and I don't know quite enough about evolution to hang with the likes of some of you. I will however adress a few philosophical things about a few posts.


If there is no God then we're all a mistake. I mean people, life, the planet, everything is just a big mistake that just happened. We're a result of a "luck of the draw" so to say.

I think you kind of proved how weak-minded (philisophically) a religious person is. Its almost as if you gave up thinking for yourself, and just found a quick answer in religion. Don't take it as a condiscending statement either just hear me out.

Even if we were hard to believe? How many billions upon billions of stars and planets could there be in the universe? Out of this uknown number why wouldn't there be atleast one that had our planets traits? Why is it so hard believe that these kind of odds could come to be on one planet?

Calculating the odds and trying to convince someone with big numbers only serves to sway those sitting on the fence. What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week? No? You probably wouldn't unless it happened to you. If it does, surprise, you're one lucky SOB! :D


The only difference is the human race was the lucky SOB but it seems like such slim odd to us that most people don't even believe we were that lucky (kinda weird).

It is my feeling that everyones mind is too weak to fathom the scope of the universe. It is this kind of ignorance in humans that turns people to religion IMO. It breaks down these kinds of unfathomable thoughts into answers.

Also, I think humans have become vein to think they're something special. Not special in the sense that we're lucky to have life on earth (which we certainly are by our standards), but to feel that they have to have some kind of divine purpose. Why would we have to be special? We COULD in fact just be a "lucky draw", but it takes a very open mind to accept the idea.

So we have kingdoms of live, some that aren't related what so ever, that came from one cell. You'd think they would have found evidence of this by now.



It just depends on what you believe. DNA, the blue print for life. Either you believe there was a higher power that created it. Or you can believe that a electrical charge that was just right reacted with the molecules in water with certain elements to chemical react and through reactions and fusion blah blah blah BAM we have the blue print of life.



So we have a group of cells, expose them to light, and we get the eye? Interesting view there.


Every post if yours is pesimistic (sp?) which I think further supports my theory about the mindset of a religious person

I could really go on for days developing this thought, but this is a start.

I am absolutely firm on my own belief system, and I think any common sense having "God" would agree that I'm doing just fine.

I think this should be the model for any agnostic (believes in a "god or creator of some sort). Nice post IMO.

As for religious people I think the same applies to them. It is just a natural human trait to believe in such things as religion, so a common sense having God wouldn't care wether you were or were not.

I have an idea of how weak the human mind is, and when I realised this I ccame to the conclusion that some things would just have to remain unanswered. Therefore I need no religion. Everyone is different though, and I feel there is no wrong way to live as it it all "just happens"

What are the odds you winning every single state jackpot in the country in a row? If it happened, would you not collect your prize because the odds of it happening are too small? Have you ever though of winning every single state, charity, and international lottery, as well as discovering a diamond mine and an oil well in you backyard in a week?

I would think gee, that seems incredibly unlikely, almost too coincidential to be purely chance, I think I might have been set up, lucky me.

I'm not trying to convince you Sean. Muscletang wanted a figure, so I gave it to him. My point is that when you see how unlikely it is to have happened by pure chance, and you see how many specific conditions must be met, it seems likely that an outside force may have had an influence.

Can it be proven? No, but to me, it is the more logical answer. I don't simply believe in God because I was "taught" to or because it comforts me. My experiences and knowledge have led me to believe it is the most logical expanation to existence. Science is great, but it can only go so far.

For someone who claims to understand science, you seem to know little regarding evolution. It's not a linear process. There are transitional species that have been found, which have flatly denied in this thread. I'm not just talking about some half-dinosaur/half-bird fossil either.

Ok, I have no concept about the theory of evolution, and neither do dozens of other evolutionists.

Former evolutionary paleontologist of Harvard, George Gaylord Simpson:

"This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertebrate and invertebrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phyla, and it is apparently also true of analogous categories of plants"

and

"Possibility for such dispute exists because transitions between major grades of organization are seldom well recorded by fossils. There is in this respect a tendency toward systematic deficiency in the record of the history of life. It is thus possible to claim that such transitions are not recorded because they did not exist… "

I never intended to argue that the theory of evolution is completely invaild. I believe that to some extent evolution exists. You have evolution at the macroscopic and microscopic level, and only microscopic evolution has been shown to exist. At the current time the fossil record (science) does not substanciate the claims that evolution explains the propogation of life on our planet.

Evolutionist Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, wrote:

"The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years [evolutionists are now dating the beginning of the Cambrian at about 530 million years], are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history."

Ok, I have no concept about the theory of evolution, and neither do dozens of other evolutionists.

Former evolutionary paleontologist of Harvard, George Gaylord Simpson:

"This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertebrate and invertebrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phyla, and it is apparently also true of analogous categories of plants"

and

"Possibility for such dispute exists because transitions between major grades of organization are seldom well recorded by fossils. There is in this respect a tendency toward systematic deficiency in the record of the history of life. It is thus possible to claim that such transitions are not recorded because they did not exist… "

I never intended to argue that the theory of evolution is completely invaild. I believe that to some extent evolution exists. You have evolution at the macroscopic and microscopic level, and only microscopic evolution has been shown to exist. At the current time the fossil record (science) does not substanciate the claims that evolution explains the propogation of life on our planet.

Evolutionist Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, wrote:

"The Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years [evolutionists are now dating the beginning of the Cambrian at about 530 million years], are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history."

You're joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking. Just so everyone knows, the first passage telling of the lack of evidence in the fossil record was published in 1944


The Cambrian period you speak of is where the major evolutionary expansion occurred. It also just so happens that the fossils you speak of from that era were preserved in something known as the burgess shale. Oddly enough, the conditions were just right such that an entire underwater ecosystem was essentialy left intact, waiting for us to discover. Of course it seems as though they were just planted there, because they were. The conditions required for preservation are very exacting, so why would this be a surprise that fossils from before and after are not available as readily. And another thing, I would really like to see the context you stole the Dawkins quote from, considering Richard Dawkins is one of the most highly respected and leading authorities on evolution in the world.

In science, we don't consider an "outside force" unless there is any sort of evidence. In fact, any sort of evidence doesn't come close to cutting it. It needs to be able to be tested, otherwise it isn't even worth talking about. Such is the concept of god. As far as I am concerned, the chair that I am sitting in right now is just as likely to have created our world as the god that so many religions worship did. If we're going to have an argument, fine, but there at least needs to be some sort of logic at work.

Like I said the big bang is a joke. All the matter in the universe was balled up into something the size of a pen dot and it exploded. Where did it come from?
Ok, there was a big swarm of gases and they curled up and exploded. Where did the gases come from?
Science says there's a cause and effect. What caused the big bang? How did this cause come to be?

The May 2005 National Geographic magazine had a good article about the big bang. Some cosmologists are now considering that the big bang that started our universe was just one event in a cycle that continually repeats itself over and over, even with several "universes" existing and evolving at the same time. It makes sense to me. Just like all life, stars and galaxies are born, develop and change over time and die. Why shouldn't universes follow the same pattern?

If it is so hard to believe that the cosmos just "is" and always was, why is it so easy to believe that God (which by definition must be even greater and more spectacular than the cosmos) "is" and always was?

You're joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking. Just so everyone knows, the first passage telling of the lack of evidence in the fossil record was published in 1944
Yet, eminently relevant

I can make my words big too.

You are absolutely right. But as you noticed, I followed that with the quote by Dawkins from 1996, showing how there has been virtually no change in the lack of evidence.


And another thing, I would really like to see the context you stole the Dawkins quote from, considering Richard Dawkins is one of the most highly respected and leading authorities on evolution in the world.

Ah I do love it, what he said doesn't fit your ideal, so I must have stole or misquoted it, right?
At least Dawkins is able to admit the weaknesses of his position.

Quoted from, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p.229, by Richard Dawkins.

Ah I do love it, what he said doesn't fit your ideal, so I must have stole or misquoted it, right?
At least Dawkins is able to admit the weaknesses of his position.

Quoted from, The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p.229, by Richard Dawkins.


I'm going to agree with misquoted. Perhaps you would like to hear more of what Dawkins said?

Religious people split into three main groups when faced with science. I shall label them the "know-nothings", the "know-alls", and the "no-contests"

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?

It is almost as if the human brain were specifically designed to misunderstand Darwinism, and to find it hard to believe..

Explain to me how you can use Dawkins quotes as evidence for creation and expect to be taken seriously?

I'm going to agree with misquoted
Oh really? You must not be familiar with the material. Maybe if you read his book you would know that is a direct quote.


Explain to me how you can use Dawkins quotes as evidence for creation and expect to be taken seriously?

I am showing that even a prominant supporter of evolution admits that they are major flaws in the theory.

What you quoted from Dawkins isn't related to my piece. I was simply proposing evidence from Dawkins that evolution at the "macroscopic" level is not a proven fact, unlike what most people assume.

Evolution has been proven to explain microscopic changes. That does not however extrapolate to fully explain the development of life. Evolution on the "macroscopic" level isn't backed by science, and requires as much faith of the unknown as someone's belief in God.

Saying such about evolution would be equivalent to saying General Relativity explains the movement of sub-atomic particles.

There were a few inspiring posts, and I believe the strongest arguments are still coming from the "pro evolution" side.

By nature I am a middle man. A negotiator. That's because I am indecisive. Let me toss out some radical idea.

Maybe God decided to change his creatures every once in a while. Has anybody here ever brainstormed? You go from one idea to the next, and occasionally you make this huge advancement which may appear as if you skipped a few steps. Maybe God skipped a few steps sometimes. Hey... gap in evolution.

Or there is the more logical explanation... maybe the exacting standards for fossilization weren't met at every single step of the way during evolution, and along the last 600 million years.... maybe we are missing a thing or two. Some may find it hard to believe in evolution rather than an almighty god who was just chillin in outer space until one day he decided to create earth strategically in such a way that would provide evidence of a big bang just to fool us. Well.... I find it hard to believe that you folks think we should have accounted for 600 million years of evolution already. How long have we had technology? I mean, shit... we've only had electricity for 200 years. We havent even had playstation for 10 years yet, and you think we should have already filled in every page of the "evolution book". Come on. It takes time. I bet some people would find it hard to prove they graduated from kindergarten. Sometimes things get lost. And when you've got 600 million years worth of time to examine, it's a challenge. The puzzle isn't complete yet but there is a very clear picture.

I'm not a scientist, but I have passed a few science classes. The big bang theory has very strong evidence. Such as all galaxies, stars, plantes, what have you... all seeming to be traveling away from a central location. The ones further from it are more spread out, and the ones closer to it are more bunched up. think about dropping a handful of marbles on the floor. They will spread out the further they go. Just like the universe. That's some pretty damn good evidence.

OR.. God made us, because he did.


I don't know. Both arguments seem strong.

counter arguments?

All the matter in the universe balled up into something the size of a thimble? Yea right. That could never happen in a universe comprised of such simple things to explain like black holes, worm holes, supernovas.... I mean, no way this could be. Our universe is too simple for that. And besides, God was just chillin and one day decided to make the universe. Its the obvious answer.

Please, use your imagination and explain to me, the guy who knows nothing about religion... Where did god come from? What was he doing before the first day? Was he around? What was before the first day? Nothing? What was where we are? Was there not even space? Was there no time? Did time actually start? Did space come out of nowhere? I don't believe the bible answers these questions. If it does please provide the quotes.



If god came down and provided undeniable proof that he was God and christianity was real, then I would apologize to him for this post, pick up a bible and devote myself to him. ANd I would hope and pray that I find some logic in this religion because I havent found much yet.

if you understand fully the concept of evolution you would beleive it. and the conditions of the planet are not perfect because we are here. we are here because they were perfect. there are trillions of stars in the universe and more chunks of rock that could be formed into a planet than can be imagined. dont you think its not that astronomical that one of them was put into the right orbit? and because of theese conditions you have biological compounds that form just like any chemical compound and they have their own unique properties. they tend to form together and form more compleex compounds. theese eventually form into things such as ribosomes and what not and eventually form into rna and dna respectiveley. and this dna has special properties and it evenyually assimilates other biological molecules to form a cell. cells are not that complex if you know about them. and when cells reproduce there is always variation (one of the most important laws of evolution) and those who change for the better have a better chance to survive. and they keep getting bettet and better and the weak are weeded out because if you cant survive you cant pass your bad traits on to your offspring. and eventually cells group together because it is beneficial to them and you get multicelled organisms and so on and so fourth.

and there are several remains of primates and hominids that can trace humans back to apes. if you watched or read about science you would know that. just because we think doesnt mean we are special and have a soul. monkeys think do they have a soul too? do they go to heaven? heaven is just something created because people donmt want to facwe the thought of their own demise. can you imagine not existing? no i cant either no one can comprehend that. thats why an afterlife is so enticing.

if the chanses opf the big bang are so slim then what are the chances of a being m ore complex then anyone can imagine with the power to create and do anything. just pops up and starts creating the earth. where did this god come from?

there are several instances in the bible that are so obsurd i dont know how anyone could beleive them. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old does anyone in the world beleive that? and in the beginning if their was only adam eve and their children how did they rreproduce? that much imbreeding would be impossible to sustain a species anyone knows that. and noas ark do you honestly beleive that you can fit all those animals on a boat?
and theres not enough water on this earth to fill it up to the mountains and if there was there would be way too much water vapor in the air to breath.

and they say jesus was so great because he died for everyone. wouldnt you die just as quick to save the whole world, to even save someone you love. dont get me wrong he was a good teacher and his teachings helped hold the world together. but thatts all he was a good man not a god. and if god was so great why would he give you no proof of his existence and then let you go to hell cause you didnt beleive a book. if you truly loved someone as supposedly god does, would you let them suffer eternally no matter what they done. and what about people born in africa they automatically go to hell and theres not a damn thing they can do about it. they dont even have a chance to learn it and they die and go to hell because god made them be born knowing that they would eventually go to hell so why bother.

and evolution is a scientific fact and is not nearly as flawed as religion. look at the diffrences in humans black, white, chineese so fourth. did one day back in the beginning people just started having diffrent colored children? no all humans originated in africa so in the beginning they were all black. and as some humasns migrated north they lost the black pigment and gained more fat than their black relatives who needed black skin to absorb harmful uvs in the tropics. and white people needed more fat to stay warm and didnt need pigment cause the sun wasnt bright where they came from. thats evolution how can you deny it?

the bottom line is evolution is backed up by proof religion is backed up by a book. anyone who supports religion can only try (in vein) to disprove science even when the facts are staring them in the face, because they have no proof behind their cause.

the number of people who believe in a religion is dropping every day. heck i used to be a pretty devout christian when i was younger but i got tired of wasting my life on a fairy tale.

this is really deep for a car discussion board. i am impressed with somre of you guys knowlege of science and what not.

a soul. monkeys think do they have a soul too? do they go to heaven? heaven is just something created because people donmt want to facwe the thought of their own demise. can you imagine not existing? no i cant either no one can comprehend that. thats why an afterlife is so enticing.

Einstein himself said there was an afterlife and he used science to back up his cause. He said energy can neither be created nor destoryed and humans are nothing but a big glob of energy. He said there was an afterlife of some kind for us.

where did this god come from?

He says himself he's the beginning and the end.

there are several instances in the bible that are so obsurd i dont know how anyone could beleive them. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old does anyone in the world beleive that?

What verse is it exactly that says the Earth is 6000 years old? I'm just curious because I don't remember it.

and in the beginning if their was only adam eve and their children how did they rreproduce? that much imbreeding would be impossible to sustain a species anyone knows that.

If you read it says their children went off and "found a spouse" now this is heated debate. Many say they were just created for Adam and Eve's children while other's say there were several Adam and Eve's that were created after the first ones.

and noas ark do you honestly beleive that you can fit all those animals on a boat?
and theres not enough water on this earth to fill it up to the mountains and if there was there would be way too much water vapor in the air to breath.

The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.

and they say jesus was so great because he died for everyone. wouldnt you die just as quick to save the whole world, to even save someone you love. dont get me wrong he was a good teacher and his teachings helped hold the world together. but thatts all he was a good man not a god.

If that's what you want to believe then go ahead.

and if god was so great why would he give you no proof of his existence and then let you go to hell cause you didnt beleive a book. if you truly loved someone as supposedly god does, would you let them suffer eternally no matter what they done.

It says in the Bible that God doesn't condem anyone or send them to Hell. People send themselves to Hell. We are given a free will to make our own decesions. We can choose to believe God exist and the Bible is right, or we can say it's all a fairy tale.
If a person goes to Hell it's because they rejected God and had no faith.

As for no proof for his existence, it depends who you talk to.

and what about people born in africa they automatically go to hell and theres not a damn thing they can do about it. they dont even have a chance to learn it and they die and go to hell because god made them be born knowing that they would eventually go to hell so why bother.

Missionaries?

until one day he decided to create earth strategically in such a way that would provide evidence of a big bang just to fool us.

I believe in God, and I am a Christian. I also happen to believe in the Big Bang. I don't believe the Earth is only a couple thousand years old, as some Creationists do. As I have previously stated, I have not found compelling scientific fact to believe that the theory of evolution as presented by Charles Darwin explains the origin and propagation of life. If such evidence existed, I would ascribe to the theory.

I believe that God has many attributes which include honesty, integrity, and richousness. I believe He is someone of logic and reason. I think there very well may be a scientific explanation, at some deep, possibly yet to be understood level, for everything that happens. I don't believe God would deceive those he created. He has given us science as a tool to understand his creation. The answers we get from the scientific disciplines, therefore, in no way negate the existence of God.

I'm not a scientist, but I have passed a few science classes. The big bang theory has very strong evidence.

You're absolutely right, it is an eminently testable theory, and has been proven correct in oodles of ways, unlike evolution.

That's some pretty damn good evidence.
OR.. God made us, because he did.

You honestly profess that you're on the fence, eh?

And besides, God was just chillin and one day decided to make the universe. Its the obvious answer.

aaaaa... ya, that's an unbiased presentation of the argument, no sarcasm found.

Where did god come from? What was he doing before the first day? Was he around? What was before the first day? Nothing? What was where we are? Was there not even space? Was there no time? Did time actually start? Did space come out of nowhere? I don't believe the bible answers these questions. If it does please provide the quotes.

These questions I will attempt to answer, in order, though I doubt it will be to your satisfaction. Note: You are delving into things that the human mind cannot fully comprehend. Everything we know is finite, it has a beginning and an end. This does not hold for the universe (infinite) as well as the proposed aspects of God.

1. God has always existed.
2. We do not know.
3. Again, He had always existed.
4. Nothing, prior to the Big Bang, at least in relation to our known universe.
5. Yes
6. There was nothing were we are, as the space we occupy was not in existence. This goes for both believers, athiests, and agnostics.
7,8,9. No, space, time, and matter all came into existence at the time of the Big Bang, so space did not exist. (Getting into the incomprehensible) again this applys for believers, athiests, and agnostics.
10. That depends. A Christian believes that God created space, a prominant majority of non-believers propose that space came out of a point of singularity that contained infinite mass and no volume, yes this does seem paradoxical, but it is predicted by the theory of general relativity.

Many people are (including Christians) are troubled by the book of Genesis. It says that God created everything in seven days. This post is already too long, and I will not get into the details of why the story in Genesis is in harmony with the scientific record. If you wish to investigate further please see, "The Genesis Question" by Dr. Hugh Ross, it is a very compelling read.

I would think it would be extremely difficult to be a devout christian and still believe in science. How do you do so ct91rs?

For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?

Anyone who believes in an almighty god would certainly think god would not make that kind of mistake with his design, and take in to account that not everyone would be exposed to christianity. WRONG. It is so hard for me to believe that a logical being wouldn't realise such a HUGE flaw. A lot of people must be lying to themselves if they can't see that.

Religion is not neccesarily a bad thing, but it troubles me to think that so many people don't even bother to think for themselves. I think its fear that keeps most poeple bound to a religion. Even for me I question wether I should be worried about going to hell. I find myself having to reassure myself, and if I wasn't born around a religion I wouldn't have to do so (meaning its certianly not some gut spiritual feeling.)

Einstein himself said there was an afterlife and he used science to back up his cause. He said energy can neither be created nor destoryed and humans are nothing but a big glob of energy. He said there was an afterlife of some kind for us.

glob of matter not so much energy. our cells create energy to power movement and the processes of life. but we are far from a glob of energy.

He says himself he's the beginning and the end.

what kind of explanation is that? it makes no sense. beggining and end thats just something the writers of the bible put to try to explain why he is and really dosent tell you anything.

What verse is it exactly that says the Earth is 6000 years old? I'm just curious because I don't remember it.

it doesnt say it specifically but taking in to account all the events of the bible its roughly 6000 years. wow i guess dinosaurs never existed. did god place false clues to lead us away from him so he could punish us?


If you read it says their children went off and "found a spouse" now this is heated debate. Many say they were just created for Adam and Eve's children while other's say there were several Adam and Eve's that were created after the first ones.

see right there a serious flaw in the bible that they tried to make up for by making something up.

The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.

still not near enough.

If that's what you want to believe then go ahead.

u didnt really answer the question. would you or would you not give up your lif to save the lives of every person on the earth.

It says in the Bible that God doesn't condem anyone or send them to Hell. People send themselves to Hell. We are given a free will to make our own decesions. We can choose to believe God exist and the Bible is right, or we can say it's all a fairy tale.
If a person goes to Hell it's because they rejected God and had no faith.

if you so loved someone would you want to see them suffer. im not saying he sends us there so to speak i know we supusodley send ourself there but youd think people who didnt beleive god would show them that he is real and give them a chance to know him instead of making them go against all theese things that say he isnt real . if you were a parent and you had a child who didnt think you were there real father would you let them walk into a house that was on fire?

As for no proof for his existence, it depends who you talk to.

where id like to see that one.

Missionaries?

yea like those work. but what about the people he knows missionaries will never get too. why create them and let them go to hell because you created them in a bad spot?

sorry that might seem like one big quote but i put stuff in it, all the sceptical stuff. im not sure how to post the seperate quotes.