Indeniable proof
thrasher
09-22-2005, 10:35 AM
There's really several points that nail the coffin for me, and should for anyone else who has basic understanding of biology.
First, how do you explain the enormous amount of diversity found in the fossil record that are no longer extant? If several millions species have gone extinct over the past 3.5 billion years, what have filled their ecological roles? Over the 5 great extinction spasms that are evidenced both in fossil and geological records, roughly 95% of all species extant at the the time were wiped out. How were their ecological roles filled? If their roles were not filled, the ecosystems would have lost their ability to self sustain, and life on the planet right now would probably be reduced to bacterial activity, if at all.
Second, how could you possibly explain the enormouse developmental similarities between humans, apes, dogs, horses, bats, even insects. Looking only at how zygotes develop, the similarities are amazing. Zygotic development in the early stages are nearly identical across species. In fact, the development of the human brain versus chimps, bonobos, and gorillas are differentiated only by gene regulation. That's right, the human, chimp, bonobo, and gorilla brain are almost identical physiologically. Amazingly, all three of those primate relatives have enlarged Broca's and Wernick's areas, which are the areas of the brain responsible for language processing and production. Essentially, they have the ability to comprehend and respond to speech, those genes simply aren't turned on during development as they are in humans.
Finally, the genes that are ultimately responsible for controlling development in most organisms are are conserved across most higher species in the animal kingdom (from insects on up). Essentially, the core biological traits that allow us to develop and sustain life are the same across species. This implies that we all share some commonality, some beginning that has been sustained throughout our evolutionary history. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
First, how do you explain the enormous amount of diversity found in the fossil record that are no longer extant? If several millions species have gone extinct over the past 3.5 billion years, what have filled their ecological roles? Over the 5 great extinction spasms that are evidenced both in fossil and geological records, roughly 95% of all species extant at the the time were wiped out. How were their ecological roles filled? If their roles were not filled, the ecosystems would have lost their ability to self sustain, and life on the planet right now would probably be reduced to bacterial activity, if at all.
Second, how could you possibly explain the enormouse developmental similarities between humans, apes, dogs, horses, bats, even insects. Looking only at how zygotes develop, the similarities are amazing. Zygotic development in the early stages are nearly identical across species. In fact, the development of the human brain versus chimps, bonobos, and gorillas are differentiated only by gene regulation. That's right, the human, chimp, bonobo, and gorilla brain are almost identical physiologically. Amazingly, all three of those primate relatives have enlarged Broca's and Wernick's areas, which are the areas of the brain responsible for language processing and production. Essentially, they have the ability to comprehend and respond to speech, those genes simply aren't turned on during development as they are in humans.
Finally, the genes that are ultimately responsible for controlling development in most organisms are are conserved across most higher species in the animal kingdom (from insects on up). Essentially, the core biological traits that allow us to develop and sustain life are the same across species. This implies that we all share some commonality, some beginning that has been sustained throughout our evolutionary history. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
AlmostStock
09-22-2005, 02:04 PM
For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?
You are correct. In the bible it does say that Jesus is the only way to the Father and to heaven. It also says that if you repent your sins and accept Jesus as your savior then you will be saved and go to heaven. You can do this at any time and still be "saved", just like the thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus did. Jesus even told this man he would see him in heaven.
So under this belief, Hitler could have repented on his death bed and still gone to heaven. (just like the thief did) Yet another person could live their entire life like Mother Teresa, giving to all humanity, but if they never professed Jesus is the Man then they go to hell. It is hard for me to believe a just god would actually do this.
You are correct. In the bible it does say that Jesus is the only way to the Father and to heaven. It also says that if you repent your sins and accept Jesus as your savior then you will be saved and go to heaven. You can do this at any time and still be "saved", just like the thief hanging on a cross next to Jesus did. Jesus even told this man he would see him in heaven.
So under this belief, Hitler could have repented on his death bed and still gone to heaven. (just like the thief did) Yet another person could live their entire life like Mother Teresa, giving to all humanity, but if they never professed Jesus is the Man then they go to hell. It is hard for me to believe a just god would actually do this.
DGB454
09-23-2005, 07:10 PM
Choices. It all comes down to your free will and the choice you make.
Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.
Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?
Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me. :)
Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.
Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?
Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me. :)
RickwithaTbird
09-23-2005, 09:29 PM
About me being on the fence, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am. I'm standing next to it, ready to climb it if need be. If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation.
However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense.
They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
As a counter argument to both sides:
Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.
Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.
I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me. Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born. I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.
ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book. I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.
However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense.
They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
As a counter argument to both sides:
Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.
Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.
I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me. Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born. I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.
ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book. I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.
ghetto7o2azn
09-24-2005, 08:24 PM
The polar ice caps, the clouds, and 0 humidity would put a whole lot of water on this Earth.
wasnt the flood from rain suposidly... for there to be rain there has to be humidity for there to be humidity there has to be heat... if its from rain, then it already dismisses the melting polar ice caps..
but for fun anyways... so lets say the polar ice caps did melt.. it would be impossible for there to be 0 humidity because it would have to be freezing.. and the polar ice caps wouldnt melt if it was freezing right?... plus, if all this did happen, i highly doubt earth would be livable in the type of heat they would be in to melt the caps... how would he feed all the animals enough food, or even water??.. all of the water on earth would be salt water.... if the boat was stocked up with food, can u imagine how long it would take to feed hundreds of thousands of animals each day... so, he fit all those animals (said to be over 50,000 species) and fed all of them for 6 months.. plus, what in the world would melt the ice caps for 6 months and then all of a sudden freeze back up... doesnt make much sense
lets start before the flood... how would he gather ALL the animals into the ark... 50,000 x 2 = 100,000 animals at least of animals he probably had no clue of... how would he kno where to find them... and how long would it have taken him to find all of them?? if the boat could really hold all those animals... how many trees would he hav needed to build that boat... now lets say he could since he had "God's help" say he finishes the boat, and goes off to find the anmials... it would have taken him decades at least to travel to get the anmials and the boat would most likely deteriorate being made of wood and all by the time he collected them...
another thing... say he succeeded and all of this did happen... all the living land dwelling animals and insects would be in one area.. where would they go??.. what would they eat??... the carnivours would only have one option.. to eat the others... well then many of the species would be extinct since there would only be two... herbavours wouldnt have much to eat either... a flood filling the earth for 6 months wouldnt leave many of the plants they are used to eating... honestly... what is the likeliness of any of them actually surviving..
with all this said... i totally believe in noah.. and his big a** boat
*edit*
how long ago was it said to be again?
wasnt the flood from rain suposidly... for there to be rain there has to be humidity for there to be humidity there has to be heat... if its from rain, then it already dismisses the melting polar ice caps..
but for fun anyways... so lets say the polar ice caps did melt.. it would be impossible for there to be 0 humidity because it would have to be freezing.. and the polar ice caps wouldnt melt if it was freezing right?... plus, if all this did happen, i highly doubt earth would be livable in the type of heat they would be in to melt the caps... how would he feed all the animals enough food, or even water??.. all of the water on earth would be salt water.... if the boat was stocked up with food, can u imagine how long it would take to feed hundreds of thousands of animals each day... so, he fit all those animals (said to be over 50,000 species) and fed all of them for 6 months.. plus, what in the world would melt the ice caps for 6 months and then all of a sudden freeze back up... doesnt make much sense
lets start before the flood... how would he gather ALL the animals into the ark... 50,000 x 2 = 100,000 animals at least of animals he probably had no clue of... how would he kno where to find them... and how long would it have taken him to find all of them?? if the boat could really hold all those animals... how many trees would he hav needed to build that boat... now lets say he could since he had "God's help" say he finishes the boat, and goes off to find the anmials... it would have taken him decades at least to travel to get the anmials and the boat would most likely deteriorate being made of wood and all by the time he collected them...
another thing... say he succeeded and all of this did happen... all the living land dwelling animals and insects would be in one area.. where would they go??.. what would they eat??... the carnivours would only have one option.. to eat the others... well then many of the species would be extinct since there would only be two... herbavours wouldnt have much to eat either... a flood filling the earth for 6 months wouldnt leave many of the plants they are used to eating... honestly... what is the likeliness of any of them actually surviving..
with all this said... i totally believe in noah.. and his big a** boat
*edit*
how long ago was it said to be again?
DGB454
09-24-2005, 11:41 PM
About me being on the fence, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am. I'm standing next to it, ready to climb it if need be. If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation. Well I guess where some see flaws I most of the time don't see them as flaws. I see them more as mysteries yet to be revealed or discovered. Science has many of these also and people are working on uncovering these mysteries and continue to make discoveries. The workings of God are in that sense the same. "Seek and you shall find."
However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense. They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
Some things are still left to interpretation. I for instance don't believe that Christ will come and give everyone a second chance as you describe. I believe that that second chance won't be as easy as your first chance was. I believe that your second chance will come as the world is in the midst of a 7 year reign of satan(lucifer). It will be nearly impossible to be a Christian in those times. You won't be able to work or buy things for a lot of reasons as described in Revelations as well as other books in the Bible. Too much info to get into here.
That doesn't mean I am right in my interpretation. I'm not to worried about that time though. I won't be here.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
Well hopefully it will work out for you. I really don't like to gamble on something I don't know that much about though. It may pay to study up on what you are betting on first before placing your bet.
As a counter argument to both sides:
Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.
I'm not afraid of dying. I'm more afraid of getting old. I guess it would serve me better to believe in the fountain of youth.
Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.
I do believe in evolution also. I don't see how evolution negates God. I have always had a hard time understanding that line of reasoning.
I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me.
The key word here is repent. In repenting there has to be a belief in the one you are repenting to.
Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born.
Knowing the beginning and the end doesn't change the fact that we are responsible for the decisions we make in between.
I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.
There are several passages in the Bible I could quote like.."You ask for proof but none shall be given." There is also a passage that says.."Ask and you shall receive." Both were spoken by Jesus. Both were spoken during totally different circumstances. When He said the first He was speaking to those who didn't really believe He was the Son of God. The second was spoken to those who believed He was who He said He was.
When you ask for proof do you ask as one who truly wants to believe or as one who really wants no proof so you can continue on as you are?
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
As long as your interpretation is correct and you are here at that time then I am sure you will have no problem.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
If you have seriously requested His help to believe then He has heard you. Don't be impatient in waiting. He will answer.
SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.
Facts are great. I look for them all the time too. Sometimes it makes my faith a little confusing at first when certain facts present themselves to me but usually things clear up in time and makes my faith even stronger.
ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book.
I am going to have to go back and read some of his posts.
True faith should never come from a book. It should always come from the relationship you have with the one you put your faith in. The book is mearly a way to get to know the one your faith lies in.
I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.
Very true. You have just as good of chance to get to heaven as anyone else does.
I do truely hope you find out what the truth is for you. Not everyone does because they simply give up searching.
Later.
:2cents:
However, this is the explanation I have been given byt the christians I have spoken with who seem to have the most common sense. They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ. He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
Some things are still left to interpretation. I for instance don't believe that Christ will come and give everyone a second chance as you describe. I believe that that second chance won't be as easy as your first chance was. I believe that your second chance will come as the world is in the midst of a 7 year reign of satan(lucifer). It will be nearly impossible to be a Christian in those times. You won't be able to work or buy things for a lot of reasons as described in Revelations as well as other books in the Bible. Too much info to get into here.
That doesn't mean I am right in my interpretation. I'm not to worried about that time though. I won't be here.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
Well hopefully it will work out for you. I really don't like to gamble on something I don't know that much about though. It may pay to study up on what you are betting on first before placing your bet.
As a counter argument to both sides:
Religion is a cushion for those afraid of dying and thats it.
I'm not afraid of dying. I'm more afraid of getting old. I guess it would serve me better to believe in the fountain of youth.
Evolution is a cushion for those afraid of not understanding everything.
I do believe in evolution also. I don't see how evolution negates God. I have always had a hard time understanding that line of reasoning.
I realize that. I'm not sure what the truth is. I don't think I should have to be. If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me.
The key word here is repent. In repenting there has to be a belief in the one you are repenting to.
Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born.
Knowing the beginning and the end doesn't change the fact that we are responsible for the decisions we make in between.
I dont have any proof worthy of devoting my life to something I can't believe in. When God gives me proof of his existence, I will honestly do my best to understand and accept him. But at the same time, I'm not going to just accept it and devote myself to it if I don't agree.
There are several passages in the Bible I could quote like.."You ask for proof but none shall be given." There is also a passage that says.."Ask and you shall receive." Both were spoken by Jesus. Both were spoken during totally different circumstances. When He said the first He was speaking to those who didn't really believe He was the Son of God. The second was spoken to those who believed He was who He said He was.
When you ask for proof do you ask as one who truly wants to believe or as one who really wants no proof so you can continue on as you are?
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
As long as your interpretation is correct and you are here at that time then I am sure you will have no problem.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
If you have seriously requested His help to believe then He has heard you. Don't be impatient in waiting. He will answer.
SO I resort to looking at the facts, and simply asking why others DO believe. Nobody has ever said anything that I would agree with as being a good reason to believe. Which is why I involve myself in these debates. I want to hear it. But I don't.
Facts are great. I look for them all the time too. Sometimes it makes my faith a little confusing at first when certain facts present themselves to me but usually things clear up in time and makes my faith even stronger.
ct91rs.... I highly respect your post. You aren't giving the same generic, ambiguous, pointless...points... that everyone else is making. You gave good arguments and I respect that. You've got true faith that doesn't come from the book.
I am going to have to go back and read some of his posts.
True faith should never come from a book. It should always come from the relationship you have with the one you put your faith in. The book is mearly a way to get to know the one your faith lies in.
I like that because most people don't even understand the bible, yet they rely so heavily on it as their reason to believe. I think I have just as good of a chance of going to heaven as they do. They have no idea what God wants from them.
Very true. You have just as good of chance to get to heaven as anyone else does.
I do truely hope you find out what the truth is for you. Not everyone does because they simply give up searching.
Later.
:2cents:
blakscorpion21
09-25-2005, 09:36 PM
its god was real i would be happy to beleive in him and follow him. heaven is a much better ending than nothingness. but i just highly dought that he is out there. evolution does go against the bible. it proves that the earth is older than the bible says, along with pretty much everything in genesis.
DGB454
09-25-2005, 09:46 PM
its god was real i would be happy to beleive in him and follow him. heaven is a much better ending than nothingness. but i just highly dought that he is out there. evolution does go against the bible. it proves that the earth is older than the bible says, along with pretty much everything in genesis.
That depends on your interpretation of it doesn't it?
That depends on your interpretation of it doesn't it?
AlmostStock
09-25-2005, 11:11 PM
Choices. It all comes down to your free will and the choice you make.
Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.
Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?
Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me. :)
If some nonChristians are right no one will ever "eventually find out". When we die we will become exactly what we were before we were conceived which was absolutely nothing, and just like then we'll have no consciousness of anything. But if Christians are right this brings up a good question. Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering? Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?
Can't believe a just God could allow someone to go to hell because that person chose not to believe in his creator? I guess eventually you will find out if you made the right choice.
Hanging your hat on evolution as proof God doesn't exist? Eventually you will also find out if you made the right choice?
Believing in Christ reguardless of all the "proof" everyone throws at you? Even you will also eventually find out if you made the right choice.
.
.
.
.
I wonder which one was the right choice?
The anticipation is killing me. :)
If some nonChristians are right no one will ever "eventually find out". When we die we will become exactly what we were before we were conceived which was absolutely nothing, and just like then we'll have no consciousness of anything. But if Christians are right this brings up a good question. Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering? Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?
DGB454
09-26-2005, 06:56 AM
If some nonChristians are right no one will ever "eventually find out". When we die we will become exactly what we were before we were conceived which was absolutely nothing, and just like then we'll have no consciousness of anything. But if Christians are right this brings up a good question. Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering? Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?
I only have a minute before I have to leave for work. As long as this thread does not get closed because it's "boring" then I will get back after work to discuss. Great question.
Later
I only have a minute before I have to leave for work. As long as this thread does not get closed because it's "boring" then I will get back after work to discuss. Great question.
Later
blakscorpion21
09-26-2005, 08:02 AM
my interpretation of it is that its not real. lol
DGB454
09-26-2005, 07:33 PM
Since there is supposedly no pain or suffering in heaven, what about loved ones that didn't make it? If I was in heaven and knew my spouse, kids, parents, or whoever, were barbecuing away in hell, wouldn't I then be suffering?
All the more reason not to let that happen. It is in the end their choice though. Even if we didn't know once we got to heaven that they were in hell because our memory of them had been wiped clean we have a pretty good idea beforehand. Knowing that they may end up there really bothers me. I do as much as I can to make sure that doesn't happen.
Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?
Possibly he does...I'm not really sure what goes on in heaven. There are passages in the Bible that say "None will be given in marraige" in heaven. This says to me that things like relationships will be quite different. I believe we will recogonize each other as individuals like we do here on earth but our goals will be different. Also it says we will be rewarded in heaven for our deeds on earth. That can't happen if we loose our individuality we had on earth. What would be the point?
I don't believe God would erase our memories because that would take away our individuality which I believe He cherishes. If He didn't He would have made us all exactly the same. So where does that leave us if we go to heaven knowing loved ones are in hell? To be honest....I am not sure. I am sure however that it will be taken care of. It does prompt me to look into it some more until I am satisfied with an answer.
More study time is in my future I guess. I will come back with an answer that will hopefully satisfy both of us. Sorry I couldn't be more precise on that one but I am still learning myself.
Later.
All the more reason not to let that happen. It is in the end their choice though. Even if we didn't know once we got to heaven that they were in hell because our memory of them had been wiped clean we have a pretty good idea beforehand. Knowing that they may end up there really bothers me. I do as much as I can to make sure that doesn't happen.
Maybe god just erases our memories so this doesn't happen, in which case we wouldn't really be our self any longer would we?
Possibly he does...I'm not really sure what goes on in heaven. There are passages in the Bible that say "None will be given in marraige" in heaven. This says to me that things like relationships will be quite different. I believe we will recogonize each other as individuals like we do here on earth but our goals will be different. Also it says we will be rewarded in heaven for our deeds on earth. That can't happen if we loose our individuality we had on earth. What would be the point?
I don't believe God would erase our memories because that would take away our individuality which I believe He cherishes. If He didn't He would have made us all exactly the same. So where does that leave us if we go to heaven knowing loved ones are in hell? To be honest....I am not sure. I am sure however that it will be taken care of. It does prompt me to look into it some more until I am satisfied with an answer.
More study time is in my future I guess. I will come back with an answer that will hopefully satisfy both of us. Sorry I couldn't be more precise on that one but I am still learning myself.
Later.
AlmostStock
09-27-2005, 12:16 PM
Thanks DGB for your honest response to questions I don't believe anyone can answer definitively with or without the bible. The mystery of all this stuff is what makes it such an interesting topic; anything but boring in my opinion.
blakscorpion21
09-27-2005, 08:39 PM
it is a very interesting debate as long as everyone stays rational. ive really enjoyed all the replies so far.
RickwithaTbird
09-27-2005, 10:31 PM
DGB... I enjoyed your response to my post. You said a few things I didn't think of.
There was one thing you asked; Am I asking for proof because I don't want any? ....no.
If God is real, I would feel bad for denying him. Which is why I won't do it. But I can't deny that I doubt it. However, that's precisely why I ask for help. I'm ready to believe, I just can't. I'd like to know that there is someone there looking out for me, who loves me, etc... I just don't believe it. And I can't make myself do it.
on another note... the main thing that pushes me from christianity is the attitude that comes from devout christians. And the atmosphere in churches. I feel like I'm watching a midnight "get rich quick" commercial. I think if do my best to respect other people, help other people, do the right thing, resist evil temptations (which I do really well), then I'm just as much as a model christian as anyone... besides the fact that I don't go to church and read the bible. And because of all the times I've asked for help, I think, maybe, just maybe God is lending me a helping hand, and showing me the right way to live. But I can't stand the attitude from big groups of christians. They make me uncomfortable, like they are a big cult, trying to lure me into their lifestyle because it's way better than mine.
I know there's no answer to that, but it wasn't a question. Just conversation. And I'm not saying all christians are like that, but it's just too hard to find people who aren't "afraid" of a life without god. And I don't want to be one of those people. I think you're supposed to be more enthusiastic about a life WITH god. Even though I'm not an example of that.
There was one thing you asked; Am I asking for proof because I don't want any? ....no.
If God is real, I would feel bad for denying him. Which is why I won't do it. But I can't deny that I doubt it. However, that's precisely why I ask for help. I'm ready to believe, I just can't. I'd like to know that there is someone there looking out for me, who loves me, etc... I just don't believe it. And I can't make myself do it.
on another note... the main thing that pushes me from christianity is the attitude that comes from devout christians. And the atmosphere in churches. I feel like I'm watching a midnight "get rich quick" commercial. I think if do my best to respect other people, help other people, do the right thing, resist evil temptations (which I do really well), then I'm just as much as a model christian as anyone... besides the fact that I don't go to church and read the bible. And because of all the times I've asked for help, I think, maybe, just maybe God is lending me a helping hand, and showing me the right way to live. But I can't stand the attitude from big groups of christians. They make me uncomfortable, like they are a big cult, trying to lure me into their lifestyle because it's way better than mine.
I know there's no answer to that, but it wasn't a question. Just conversation. And I'm not saying all christians are like that, but it's just too hard to find people who aren't "afraid" of a life without god. And I don't want to be one of those people. I think you're supposed to be more enthusiastic about a life WITH god. Even though I'm not an example of that.
DGB454
09-27-2005, 10:56 PM
Thanks DGB for your honest response to questions I don't believe anyone can answer definitively with or without the bible. The mystery of all this stuff is what makes it such an interesting topic; anything but boring in my opinion.
I went to a Christian/Bible study based forum and threw up your question to them. There were several interesting answers. I listed them below. I think you will find the last one particularly interesting because he said basically what you just said. "I don't believe anyone can answer definitively with or without the bible". Good call.
My question:
"Will we recoginize loved ones in heaven? Will we be aware of loved ones that are not in heaven but are in hell?"
Response :
"Yes, we will be able to recognize our loved ones in heaven. The Thessalonian Christians were apparently very concerned about their Christian loved ones who had died. They expressed their concern to the apostle Paul. So, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Paul deals with the "dead in Christ" and assures the Thessalonian Christians that there will indeed be a reunion. So yes, believers will recognize their loved ones in the eternal state.
Also, when Moses and Elijah (who had both long passed from earthly life) appeared to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8), they were recognized by all who were present. Furthermore, in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham were all recognized by each other in the intermediate state.
Therefore, I believe that we will be able to recognize loved ones in heaven, and I believe that the absence of loved ones in heaven will be made aware to us as well. "
My Follow up question:
"This leads me to another question.
If we know that loved ones are absent from heaven then how can we be happy in heaven? We will all undoubtably know someone we care about that won't make it. How then can we rejoice in heaven knowing a loved one is suffering in hell?"
Response1:
"'When we arrive in Heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” For a detailed description of Heaven, see Revelation chapters 21-22. Once we arrive in Heaven, we will be glorified and perfect. Our hearts, attitudes, and thoughts will be completely in agreement with God (1 John 3:2). If some of our loved ones are not in Heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there – that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; John 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy Heaven without all of our loved ones there, but rather on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ – so that they will be there.'"
Response2:
"Over the years -- I've been a Christian for more than 55 years -- I've thought about heaven. And hell. I've pondered over the apostle John's description of the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place throughout eternity for all the saints of all the ages. ...... Your question has several components and is prefaced by "if." And, theologically speaking at least, it's always the "if" questions that are the hardest, if not outright impossible, to answer. And I sincerely believe that your question -- I do not chide you for asking it -- falls well within the category of impossible to answer. Please permit me an explanation. ..... We think of the apostle Paul as having manifold spiritual gifts, and we regenerate believers affirm that every word he wrote in our New Testament Canon was God-breathed. But though we hold to these truths firmly, we also know that God the Holy Spirit did not choose to reveal everything even to His servant, Paul. "We know in part," said Paul in 1 Cor. 13:9, "and we prophesy in part." He continued in vs. 12, "For now we see in a mirror darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." Paul did not know it all, and neither do we. ....... I believe there's more to heaven than our finite minds can contain! Christ gave us a glimpse of heaven in His Revelation penned by His apostle John. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful passage in all Scripture than Revelation 21 and 22. It does not speak to the second leg of your question, "How can we rejoce in heaven knowing a loved one is suffering in hell?" It doesn't establish that we will, in fact, know about the loved one suffering in hell. ...... But it does speak to the first part of your question, viz., "how can we rejoice in heaven?" And it is so beautifully written -- in my view it's one of the supremely beautiful passages in all the Bible, indeed in all literature. Here's what it says: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4). Perhaps the last half dozen words, "the former things are passed away" will help you work through your question about remembrance of loved ones. I don't know, and I hesitate to go beyond what Scripture reveals, because when we go out on our own speculative theological safaris, we invariably get lost in the jungle. ...... Your question is indeed a complex one and a good one, save for its beleaguerment by suppositional phrases which always present very difficult theological challenges! In any event, I do hope that this response proves to be of some benefit to you. Kalos and Makarios gave good responses from a slightly different perspective. Please study them carefully"
I went to a Christian/Bible study based forum and threw up your question to them. There were several interesting answers. I listed them below. I think you will find the last one particularly interesting because he said basically what you just said. "I don't believe anyone can answer definitively with or without the bible". Good call.
My question:
"Will we recoginize loved ones in heaven? Will we be aware of loved ones that are not in heaven but are in hell?"
Response :
"Yes, we will be able to recognize our loved ones in heaven. The Thessalonian Christians were apparently very concerned about their Christian loved ones who had died. They expressed their concern to the apostle Paul. So, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Paul deals with the "dead in Christ" and assures the Thessalonian Christians that there will indeed be a reunion. So yes, believers will recognize their loved ones in the eternal state.
Also, when Moses and Elijah (who had both long passed from earthly life) appeared to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-8), they were recognized by all who were present. Furthermore, in Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham were all recognized by each other in the intermediate state.
Therefore, I believe that we will be able to recognize loved ones in heaven, and I believe that the absence of loved ones in heaven will be made aware to us as well. "
My Follow up question:
"This leads me to another question.
If we know that loved ones are absent from heaven then how can we be happy in heaven? We will all undoubtably know someone we care about that won't make it. How then can we rejoice in heaven knowing a loved one is suffering in hell?"
Response1:
"'When we arrive in Heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” For a detailed description of Heaven, see Revelation chapters 21-22. Once we arrive in Heaven, we will be glorified and perfect. Our hearts, attitudes, and thoughts will be completely in agreement with God (1 John 3:2). If some of our loved ones are not in Heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there – that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; John 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy Heaven without all of our loved ones there, but rather on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ – so that they will be there.'"
Response2:
"Over the years -- I've been a Christian for more than 55 years -- I've thought about heaven. And hell. I've pondered over the apostle John's description of the new Jerusalem, the dwelling place throughout eternity for all the saints of all the ages. ...... Your question has several components and is prefaced by "if." And, theologically speaking at least, it's always the "if" questions that are the hardest, if not outright impossible, to answer. And I sincerely believe that your question -- I do not chide you for asking it -- falls well within the category of impossible to answer. Please permit me an explanation. ..... We think of the apostle Paul as having manifold spiritual gifts, and we regenerate believers affirm that every word he wrote in our New Testament Canon was God-breathed. But though we hold to these truths firmly, we also know that God the Holy Spirit did not choose to reveal everything even to His servant, Paul. "We know in part," said Paul in 1 Cor. 13:9, "and we prophesy in part." He continued in vs. 12, "For now we see in a mirror darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." Paul did not know it all, and neither do we. ....... I believe there's more to heaven than our finite minds can contain! Christ gave us a glimpse of heaven in His Revelation penned by His apostle John. One would be hard pressed to find a more beautiful passage in all Scripture than Revelation 21 and 22. It does not speak to the second leg of your question, "How can we rejoce in heaven knowing a loved one is suffering in hell?" It doesn't establish that we will, in fact, know about the loved one suffering in hell. ...... But it does speak to the first part of your question, viz., "how can we rejoice in heaven?" And it is so beautifully written -- in my view it's one of the supremely beautiful passages in all the Bible, indeed in all literature. Here's what it says: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." (Rev. 21:4). Perhaps the last half dozen words, "the former things are passed away" will help you work through your question about remembrance of loved ones. I don't know, and I hesitate to go beyond what Scripture reveals, because when we go out on our own speculative theological safaris, we invariably get lost in the jungle. ...... Your question is indeed a complex one and a good one, save for its beleaguerment by suppositional phrases which always present very difficult theological challenges! In any event, I do hope that this response proves to be of some benefit to you. Kalos and Makarios gave good responses from a slightly different perspective. Please study them carefully"
DGB454
09-27-2005, 11:42 PM
DGB... I enjoyed your response to my post. You said a few things I didn't think of.
There was one thing you asked; Am I asking for proof because I don't want any? ....no.
I had a feeling that that wasn't what you were doing.
If God is real, I would feel bad for denying him. Which is why I won't do it. But I can't deny that I doubt it. However, that's precisely why I ask for help. I'm ready to believe, I just can't. I'd like to know that there is someone there looking out for me, who loves me, etc... I just don't believe it. And I can't make myself do it.
I have doubts occasionally too. I don't know anyone who doesn't. Moses did even after physically hearing God speak to him. I seem to remember a few others in the Bible that questioned if God was hearing them at all because they hadn't heard from Him in a long time. If these people who walked so close to Him and some who had actually walked, talked and witnessed the life and miracles of Jesus could have doubts at times then I think we are allowed too also. Faith isn't as easy as many people want you to believe it is. There are several passages in the Bible that talk about that. (I'll look them up)
on another note... the main thing that pushes me from christianity is the attitude that comes from devout christians. And the atmosphere in churches. I feel like I'm watching a midnight "get rich quick" commercial.
Man...I've been there. I have been in churches that seem like their main goal is to bring you in so you can start tithing. That's when it's time to turn around and walk out. Their main objective should be to get you in a relationship with Christ. The rest will always take care of itself.
I think if do my best to respect other people, help other people, do the right thing, resist evil temptations (which I do really well), then I'm just as much as a model christian as anyone... besides the fact that I don't go to church and read the bible.
The only thing that sets you apart from a Christian is the relationship with Christ. The word Christian literally means a follower of Christ. It's not about what you do it's who you know. You are probably a better person than I am when it comes to doing the right thing. I screw up all the time. The only hope I really have on making it to heaven and bringing as many people with me as possible is Christ. If I had to try and get there on my own merits then I'm afraid I would get booted before I hit the gates.
And because of all the times I've asked for help, I think, maybe, just maybe God is lending me a helping hand, and showing me the right way to live.
:) To coin a phrase....He does work in mysterious ways.
But I can't stand the attitude from big groups of christians. They make me uncomfortable, like they are a big cult, trying to lure me into their lifestyle because it's way better than mine.
LOL....Believe me; Sometimes I feel that way too. We have a way of turning people off when we get that hollier(sp?) than thou attitude. (weird that I don't know how to spell hollier) Most of the time it's not intentional and we just come off that way because it's different than what most people are use too. One of the things that really bugs me is the type of people who want to jump in your face and tell you how bad you are and that you need to repent and make a drastic change in your life or you are bound for hell. There is a time and a place for everything but trying to bring someone in with that type of preaching probably drives more people away than brings them in. In my opinion that type of preaching should be left to the Christians who have been a Christian for years and need to be waken up because they have gotten lazy.
I know there's no answer to that, but it wasn't a question. Just conversation. And I'm not saying all christians are like that, but it's just too hard to find people who aren't "afraid" of a life without god. And I don't want to be one of those people. I think you're supposed to be more enthusiastic about a life WITH god. Even though I'm not an example of that.
Change is hard. It's hard to be entuusiastic about a big change. The only thing I can tell you about that is...don't worry about changing. Don't even plan on it. That was the only way I was able to get past it.
I figured that being saved was more important than changing my lifestyle. I figure God will work on changing me a bit at a time. He is. He is doing it at His and my own pace. For some the change in their lifestyle is sudden and dramatic. They were able to handle it. I'm not.
He is kind of like a slow microwave oven in my case. Slowly cooking from the inside out. Maybe a bad comparison with the whole cooking and hell thing but I think you get what I'm saying.
Man I am long winded....
See you on the other side.
Later
There was one thing you asked; Am I asking for proof because I don't want any? ....no.
I had a feeling that that wasn't what you were doing.
If God is real, I would feel bad for denying him. Which is why I won't do it. But I can't deny that I doubt it. However, that's precisely why I ask for help. I'm ready to believe, I just can't. I'd like to know that there is someone there looking out for me, who loves me, etc... I just don't believe it. And I can't make myself do it.
I have doubts occasionally too. I don't know anyone who doesn't. Moses did even after physically hearing God speak to him. I seem to remember a few others in the Bible that questioned if God was hearing them at all because they hadn't heard from Him in a long time. If these people who walked so close to Him and some who had actually walked, talked and witnessed the life and miracles of Jesus could have doubts at times then I think we are allowed too also. Faith isn't as easy as many people want you to believe it is. There are several passages in the Bible that talk about that. (I'll look them up)
on another note... the main thing that pushes me from christianity is the attitude that comes from devout christians. And the atmosphere in churches. I feel like I'm watching a midnight "get rich quick" commercial.
Man...I've been there. I have been in churches that seem like their main goal is to bring you in so you can start tithing. That's when it's time to turn around and walk out. Their main objective should be to get you in a relationship with Christ. The rest will always take care of itself.
I think if do my best to respect other people, help other people, do the right thing, resist evil temptations (which I do really well), then I'm just as much as a model christian as anyone... besides the fact that I don't go to church and read the bible.
The only thing that sets you apart from a Christian is the relationship with Christ. The word Christian literally means a follower of Christ. It's not about what you do it's who you know. You are probably a better person than I am when it comes to doing the right thing. I screw up all the time. The only hope I really have on making it to heaven and bringing as many people with me as possible is Christ. If I had to try and get there on my own merits then I'm afraid I would get booted before I hit the gates.
And because of all the times I've asked for help, I think, maybe, just maybe God is lending me a helping hand, and showing me the right way to live.
:) To coin a phrase....He does work in mysterious ways.
But I can't stand the attitude from big groups of christians. They make me uncomfortable, like they are a big cult, trying to lure me into their lifestyle because it's way better than mine.
LOL....Believe me; Sometimes I feel that way too. We have a way of turning people off when we get that hollier(sp?) than thou attitude. (weird that I don't know how to spell hollier) Most of the time it's not intentional and we just come off that way because it's different than what most people are use too. One of the things that really bugs me is the type of people who want to jump in your face and tell you how bad you are and that you need to repent and make a drastic change in your life or you are bound for hell. There is a time and a place for everything but trying to bring someone in with that type of preaching probably drives more people away than brings them in. In my opinion that type of preaching should be left to the Christians who have been a Christian for years and need to be waken up because they have gotten lazy.
I know there's no answer to that, but it wasn't a question. Just conversation. And I'm not saying all christians are like that, but it's just too hard to find people who aren't "afraid" of a life without god. And I don't want to be one of those people. I think you're supposed to be more enthusiastic about a life WITH god. Even though I'm not an example of that.
Change is hard. It's hard to be entuusiastic about a big change. The only thing I can tell you about that is...don't worry about changing. Don't even plan on it. That was the only way I was able to get past it.
I figured that being saved was more important than changing my lifestyle. I figure God will work on changing me a bit at a time. He is. He is doing it at His and my own pace. For some the change in their lifestyle is sudden and dramatic. They were able to handle it. I'm not.
He is kind of like a slow microwave oven in my case. Slowly cooking from the inside out. Maybe a bad comparison with the whole cooking and hell thing but I think you get what I'm saying.
Man I am long winded....
See you on the other side.
Later
blakscorpion21
09-28-2005, 02:28 PM
what gets me is theese people that are supposed to be devout christians, like at my old high school people that were in the christian clubs and stuff and i would talk to them in class and they would talk about smoking pot, getting drunk, and having sex with random people. im a better person than most of them and im not even a christian. i dont need a religion to tell me what is right and wrong. i have my own morals, well mostly taught to me by my parents who were christians but alot of them are my own as well. although i do have alot of respect for some of the people who i went to high school with who truly do follow it well. there was this one guy i knew who i was very good friends with and i never saw him get mad, never sin of any sort, never do anything wrong, and prayed all the time. he was the captain of the football team, perfect 100 average, valedictorian, basically mr. perfect. now thats true dedication and i have immense respect for him because of that.
AlmostStock
09-28-2005, 04:05 PM
DGB- Thank you for taking the time to address my question. I found your replies very interesting and continue to gain even more respect for your outlook on this topic.
what gets me is theese people that are supposed to be devout christians, like at my old high school people that were in the christian clubs and stuff and i would talk to them in class and they would talk about smoking pot, getting drunk, and having sex with random people. im a better person than most of them and im not even a christian. i dont need a religion to tell me what is right and wrong. i have my own morals, well mostly taught to me by my parents who were christians but alot of them are my own as well. although i do have alot of respect for some of the people who i went to high school with who truly do follow it well. there was this one guy i knew who i was very good friends with and i never saw him get mad, never sin of any sort, never do anything wrong, and prayed all the time. he was the captain of the football team, perfect 100 average, valedictorian, basically mr. perfect. now thats true dedication and i have immense respect for him because of that.
Unfortunately it's true that some people who call themselves Christians love playing that "get out of hell free" card! They think that because they are "saved" they can do anything they want and still be forgiven. But we can't hold this liberal interpretation (or ignorance) of the bible against God or true Christians can we?
Morality is certainly not tied to any religion. A non believer can have higher moral standards than someone who claims to be "saved". So are we to believe that God would send person A to hell and open the gates of heaven to person B? According to the bible many say yes. Personally I don't believe there is a God that would be this unjust.
what gets me is theese people that are supposed to be devout christians, like at my old high school people that were in the christian clubs and stuff and i would talk to them in class and they would talk about smoking pot, getting drunk, and having sex with random people. im a better person than most of them and im not even a christian. i dont need a religion to tell me what is right and wrong. i have my own morals, well mostly taught to me by my parents who were christians but alot of them are my own as well. although i do have alot of respect for some of the people who i went to high school with who truly do follow it well. there was this one guy i knew who i was very good friends with and i never saw him get mad, never sin of any sort, never do anything wrong, and prayed all the time. he was the captain of the football team, perfect 100 average, valedictorian, basically mr. perfect. now thats true dedication and i have immense respect for him because of that.
Unfortunately it's true that some people who call themselves Christians love playing that "get out of hell free" card! They think that because they are "saved" they can do anything they want and still be forgiven. But we can't hold this liberal interpretation (or ignorance) of the bible against God or true Christians can we?
Morality is certainly not tied to any religion. A non believer can have higher moral standards than someone who claims to be "saved". So are we to believe that God would send person A to hell and open the gates of heaven to person B? According to the bible many say yes. Personally I don't believe there is a God that would be this unjust.
Muscletang
09-28-2005, 06:09 PM
Unfortunately it's true that some people who call themselves Christians love playing that "get out of hell free" card! They think that because they are "saved" they can do anything they want and still be forgiven. But we can't hold this liberal interpretation (or ignorance) of the bible against God or true Christians can we?
The thing is this person may not be saved. There are a whole lot of "Christians" that figured they'd get their fire insurance and then go back to living the way they were.
If this is the way they're thinking then they're probably not saved. A saved person will have a change in them. It may be big or it could very be little but it's there. If you don't feel a little bad doing things you did before you were "saved" then chances are you probably aren't saved. You just went through the steps, but didn't get a thing out of it.
Also, the Bible says if a saved person is acting very badly in their lives, then God will punish them and it won't be pretty. If they still don't change then he'll take them out of this world where they can't mess up anymore.
The thing is this person may not be saved. There are a whole lot of "Christians" that figured they'd get their fire insurance and then go back to living the way they were.
If this is the way they're thinking then they're probably not saved. A saved person will have a change in them. It may be big or it could very be little but it's there. If you don't feel a little bad doing things you did before you were "saved" then chances are you probably aren't saved. You just went through the steps, but didn't get a thing out of it.
Also, the Bible says if a saved person is acting very badly in their lives, then God will punish them and it won't be pretty. If they still don't change then he'll take them out of this world where they can't mess up anymore.
ct91rs
09-28-2005, 08:03 PM
I apologize, this is going to be long, and I have to go back a ways...
I would think it would be extremely difficult to be a devout christian and still believe in science. How do you do so ct91rs?
I don’t have any problem with it. To my knowledge most of the problem comes with the way people interpret the Hebrew word “Yom” which has been translated “day”. The problem being that this Hebrew term has several meanings stretching from a single 24hr period, a long period of time, to an epoch, and there are many indications that in the given context, the word would be more correctly interpreted as “a long period of time”. Your cursory reader sees “day” and thinks 24 hrs. They then use the genealogy left in the Bible to extrapolate back to the last “day” of Creation, and thus, if the Bible is truthful, our Universe is only a couple thousand years old. In summary, the majority of the friction and confusion experienced by many Christians about science comes from an improper understanding of the word “Yom”.
For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?
As I have indicated much earlier in this thread, I have found sufficient reason to believe in God, and I have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so I will not delve back into my reasoning for this position. Given this, I believe in the veracity of the Bible. Things can always be taken out of context, but there is a major theme throughout the New Testament that cannot be wrong, if Christianity is real: Anyone without faith in Jesus Christ will not have eternal life. Does this mean that those who were never exposed to Christianity will go to Hell? No. The Bible is not so clear on that subject. It does seem to indicate that at the second coming of Christ; those who have not had the opportunity to accept or reject Him will get their chance. This will not happen for those who have already rejected Him.
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and devine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
If you deny God, and especially if you deny Christ, you will not see eternal life. There will be no second chance, according to scripture.
Free-will is one of the main attributes God created humans with. You have been given the opportunity to choose. God has revealed that He wants to spend eternity with those who wish to seek Him. You certainly don’t have to, it’s your choice. Is this a flaw, or does this make him evil? It doesn’t seem so to me. If you offer to help someone, perhaps repeatedly, and they refuse to accept your help, are you a bad person for finally walking away?
Anyone who believes in an almighty god would certainly think god would not make that kind of mistake with his design, and take in to account that not everyone would be exposed to christianity. WRONG. It is so hard for me to believe that a logical being wouldn't realise such a HUGE flaw. A lot of people must be lying to themselves if they can't see that.
I agree that excluding those who have not heard the message of Christianity from eternal life is inconsistent with a good and loving God, but I think those who believe God condemns these individuals are in error.
Romans 1:20:
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
Religion is not neccesarily a bad thing, but it troubles me to think that so many people don't even bother to think for themselves.
Again I agree:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true."
God doesn’t wish for blind obedience. He has given us a mind to think and free-will to choose.
Even for me I question wether I should be worried about going to hell. I find myself having to reassure myself, and if I wasn't born around a religion I wouldn't have to do so (meaning its certianly not some gut spiritual feeling.)
I believe you are wrong about this, the Bible indicates that you have an inherent “gut spiritual feeling”, and so may science:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/
Rick, how do you reassure yourself? With the promise of Evolution, and ceasing to exist after this lifetime? I doesn’t find that too compelling. If God does exist, having a relationship with Him will prove to be the most important thing you ever do.
If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation.
All Christians have many questions for the Almighty. You will never have answers to many of your questions during this lifetime, frustrating as that is.
They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ.
This is indicated by scripture.
He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
You can believe what these Christians tell you, and it may be what you want to here, but this statement has absolutely no Biblical backing. In fact, it is stated repeatedly that at Christ’s second coming, He will bring judgment; the time for repentance will have passed.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
It pains me to hear Christians misinform non-believers, perhaps unintentionally, but it gives people false hope. You are counting on something that has no foundation.
If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me.
How are you so sure? If Christ was the physical manifestation of God, and you deny His divinity, it doesn’t matter how many good deeds you have done, or whether the good you have done outweighs the bad, you will not see Heaven. That is the overwhelming theme of the New Testament.
Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born.
That’s a good point, and essentially true. But an eternal being transcends space and time. Again, we are getting into things that cannot be fully conceived by the human mind, so we may not find a satisfactory answer (this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try). From an eternal perspective, you could say that our lives are predetermined. Looking back from the future you could say that anything was predetermined by certain events, but that doesn’t preclude free-will from influencing those events. From God’s perspective all events from the beginning to the end of time have already happened. So yes, in creating human beings as He did, he knew that not all would choose Him, but apparently He saw having fellowship with those beings that do choose Him worth the cost.
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
At that point you will have no choice, His existence will be made known to all. At that time, nothing will be able to deny His existence, it will be too late to repent.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
Faith, or belief in God is an active process. If you continue to ask Him to reveal himself to you, He will. It may not be in the way you expect or when you want, and it won’t likely be in the form of a physical representation, but something will happen, and you will know from the core of your being that God is there.
I would think it would be extremely difficult to be a devout christian and still believe in science. How do you do so ct91rs?
I don’t have any problem with it. To my knowledge most of the problem comes with the way people interpret the Hebrew word “Yom” which has been translated “day”. The problem being that this Hebrew term has several meanings stretching from a single 24hr period, a long period of time, to an epoch, and there are many indications that in the given context, the word would be more correctly interpreted as “a long period of time”. Your cursory reader sees “day” and thinks 24 hrs. They then use the genealogy left in the Bible to extrapolate back to the last “day” of Creation, and thus, if the Bible is truthful, our Universe is only a couple thousand years old. In summary, the majority of the friction and confusion experienced by many Christians about science comes from an improper understanding of the word “Yom”.
For instance if you believe in Christianity, a big part of believing in it is that all who do not believe in the christian god go to hell? Like has already been said before how would a god let so many people stray from christianity even though he designed us? I find this to be the biggest flaw with christianity, and I'd like to know how you can whole heartedly be a christian?
As I have indicated much earlier in this thread, I have found sufficient reason to believe in God, and I have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, so I will not delve back into my reasoning for this position. Given this, I believe in the veracity of the Bible. Things can always be taken out of context, but there is a major theme throughout the New Testament that cannot be wrong, if Christianity is real: Anyone without faith in Jesus Christ will not have eternal life. Does this mean that those who were never exposed to Christianity will go to Hell? No. The Bible is not so clear on that subject. It does seem to indicate that at the second coming of Christ; those who have not had the opportunity to accept or reject Him will get their chance. This will not happen for those who have already rejected Him.
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and devine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
If you deny God, and especially if you deny Christ, you will not see eternal life. There will be no second chance, according to scripture.
Free-will is one of the main attributes God created humans with. You have been given the opportunity to choose. God has revealed that He wants to spend eternity with those who wish to seek Him. You certainly don’t have to, it’s your choice. Is this a flaw, or does this make him evil? It doesn’t seem so to me. If you offer to help someone, perhaps repeatedly, and they refuse to accept your help, are you a bad person for finally walking away?
Anyone who believes in an almighty god would certainly think god would not make that kind of mistake with his design, and take in to account that not everyone would be exposed to christianity. WRONG. It is so hard for me to believe that a logical being wouldn't realise such a HUGE flaw. A lot of people must be lying to themselves if they can't see that.
I agree that excluding those who have not heard the message of Christianity from eternal life is inconsistent with a good and loving God, but I think those who believe God condemns these individuals are in error.
Romans 1:20:
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
Religion is not neccesarily a bad thing, but it troubles me to think that so many people don't even bother to think for themselves.
Again I agree:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Test everything; hold fast to that which is true."
God doesn’t wish for blind obedience. He has given us a mind to think and free-will to choose.
Even for me I question wether I should be worried about going to hell. I find myself having to reassure myself, and if I wasn't born around a religion I wouldn't have to do so (meaning its certianly not some gut spiritual feeling.)
I believe you are wrong about this, the Bible indicates that you have an inherent “gut spiritual feeling”, and so may science:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/
Rick, how do you reassure yourself? With the promise of Evolution, and ceasing to exist after this lifetime? I doesn’t find that too compelling. If God does exist, having a relationship with Him will prove to be the most important thing you ever do.
If I had the chance to speak with god, I would definitely ask him why he made things happen the way they have. Obviously as poweredbyunclebens noted, there are many flaws which have left a lot of people out of his religion. Before I agreed to devote myself to him I would like an explanation.
All Christians have many questions for the Almighty. You will never have answers to many of your questions during this lifetime, frustrating as that is.
They tell me that there will be a man who begins to perform miracles on earth and he will claim to be god. Many will believe him, but it will actually be Lucifer. Then there will be a TRUE second coming of Christ.
This is indicated by scripture.
He will give EVERYONE the opportunity to repent, because everyone deserves a chance. Those who still deny him will go to hell. Those who believe will go to heaven.
You can believe what these Christians tell you, and it may be what you want to here, but this statement has absolutely no Biblical backing. In fact, it is stated repeatedly that at Christ’s second coming, He will bring judgment; the time for repentance will have passed.
I am heavily counting on that. In this lifetime I don't see it reasonable to devote myself to a religion that I don't understand.
It pains me to hear Christians misinform non-believers, perhaps unintentionally, but it gives people false hope. You are counting on something that has no foundation.
If there is an understanding and forgiving god, who will let a cold blooded murderer repent, I don't think he will send me to hell for using the brain he gave me.
How are you so sure? If Christ was the physical manifestation of God, and you deny His divinity, it doesn’t matter how many good deeds you have done, or whether the good you have done outweighs the bad, you will not see Heaven. That is the overwhelming theme of the New Testament.
Apparently he already knows how our whole lives will pan out before we are even born, so WTF? Its like those who are going to go to hell were already doomed before they were born.
That’s a good point, and essentially true. But an eternal being transcends space and time. Again, we are getting into things that cannot be fully conceived by the human mind, so we may not find a satisfactory answer (this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try). From an eternal perspective, you could say that our lives are predetermined. Looking back from the future you could say that anything was predetermined by certain events, but that doesn’t preclude free-will from influencing those events. From God’s perspective all events from the beginning to the end of time have already happened. So yes, in creating human beings as He did, he knew that not all would choose Him, but apparently He saw having fellowship with those beings that do choose Him worth the cost.
That said, I believe that if he is a perfect god, I will have no qualms accepting him and his religion after the second coming.
At that point you will have no choice, His existence will be made known to all. At that time, nothing will be able to deny His existence, it will be too late to repent.
I have seriously requested that if he is out there, he would please give me the will to believe. Because if I am his son, I must be too weak to believe without help. He hasn't given me any help yet. I simply don't have the ability to believe, and I know I can't be blamed for it.
Faith, or belief in God is an active process. If you continue to ask Him to reveal himself to you, He will. It may not be in the way you expect or when you want, and it won’t likely be in the form of a physical representation, but something will happen, and you will know from the core of your being that God is there.
ct91rs
09-28-2005, 08:21 PM
To the more recent point of people who profess to be "Christians", yet do not live a "Christ like" life, here's what the Bible says,
The New Testament:
Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."
James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." 24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." 26 "As the body without the spirit is deadm so faith without deeds is dead."
Hebrews 10:38-39 "But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."
Luke 13:22-28 "Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."
Salvation is a gift from God, it is not something you can attain by doing good deeds; and true faith manifests itself in your life. This does not mean Christians have to live perfect-sin free lives. That is not possible. However, faith that is real will give a Christian the desire to please God, and actively avoid sin as much as possible. According to the New Testament, those who profess to be "Christians", yet live in an opposing fashion, will be judged more severely than those who deny God, for the former may disuade others from believing.
The New Testament:
Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."
James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
James 2:14-17 "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." 24 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." 26 "As the body without the spirit is deadm so faith without deeds is dead."
Hebrews 10:38-39 "But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."
Luke 13:22-28 "Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."
Salvation is a gift from God, it is not something you can attain by doing good deeds; and true faith manifests itself in your life. This does not mean Christians have to live perfect-sin free lives. That is not possible. However, faith that is real will give a Christian the desire to please God, and actively avoid sin as much as possible. According to the New Testament, those who profess to be "Christians", yet live in an opposing fashion, will be judged more severely than those who deny God, for the former may disuade others from believing.
PWRDbyUNCLEbens
09-28-2005, 10:47 PM
I agree that excluding those who have not heard the message of Christianity from eternal life is inconsistent with a good and loving God, but I think those who believe God condemns these individuals are in error.
Romans 1:20:
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
So essentially I'm damned for thinking the way I do because I'm simply born around it? So if I was to be in a part of the world, and not exposed to christianity I would be fine. That still doesn't make since, as damning me for doing so would be an arrogant if you ask me. Why would I want to associate with a close-minded god like that?
I believe you are wrong about this, the Bible indicates that you have an inherent “gut spiritual feeling”, and so may science:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/
That doesn't really help the christian arguement. What about the people who have the "gut feeling" about the wrong god?
Romans 1:20:
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
So essentially I'm damned for thinking the way I do because I'm simply born around it? So if I was to be in a part of the world, and not exposed to christianity I would be fine. That still doesn't make since, as damning me for doing so would be an arrogant if you ask me. Why would I want to associate with a close-minded god like that?
I believe you are wrong about this, the Bible indicates that you have an inherent “gut spiritual feeling”, and so may science:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101041025/
That doesn't really help the christian arguement. What about the people who have the "gut feeling" about the wrong god?
ct91rs
09-29-2005, 10:28 AM
So essentially I'm damned for thinking the way I do because I'm simply born around it? So if I was to be in a part of the world, and not exposed to christianity I would be fine. That still doesn't make since, as damning me for doing so would be an arrogant if you ask me. Why would I want to associate with a close-minded god like that?
God gives everyone the gift of salvation. It depends on whether you accept or reject it. Those who have not heard the Word of God will have an opportunity, but if you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible emphatically states that you are damned. How does your rejection of an opportunity make God close-minded?
That doesn't really help the christian arguement. What about the people who have the "gut feeling" about the wrong god?
I believe that everyone has a "gut feeling" about God, and I was simply trying to show that even science may indicate such. About the wrong God? It goes back to my first response.
God gives everyone the gift of salvation. It depends on whether you accept or reject it. Those who have not heard the Word of God will have an opportunity, but if you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible emphatically states that you are damned. How does your rejection of an opportunity make God close-minded?
That doesn't really help the christian arguement. What about the people who have the "gut feeling" about the wrong god?
I believe that everyone has a "gut feeling" about God, and I was simply trying to show that even science may indicate such. About the wrong God? It goes back to my first response.
thrasher
09-29-2005, 12:59 PM
Science does no indicate that god exists. The more we learn from all of the different sciences, the more we understand that random processes control all facets of our existence. At the atomic, molecular, chemical, biochemical, cellular, organismal, population, ecosystem and even biosphere levels all of our current research points to the random nature of life. Research in all of those fields also supports evolution, but that argument has been exhausted, as such it will be left alone here.
An all loving god would not damn any of his people. The definition of all means just that...all. Therefore, if this god of yours really does love everyone, then when the comes that true love will be shown...
An all loving god would not damn any of his people. The definition of all means just that...all. Therefore, if this god of yours really does love everyone, then when the comes that true love will be shown...
AlmostStock
09-29-2005, 01:34 PM
A persons belief is firstly dictated by where and when they were born, and secondly by their environment. Across the world there are, and have been, plenty of religions and within each of them many more sects or denominations with differing beliefs. Since no religion can be proven to be true, it seems awfully arrogant to me for anyone to claim that everyone else's belief is wrong. Only some god (if there is one) can make that call.
Most people are convinced that their beliefs are %100 correct. If anyone believes they have found enlightenment, the way to heaven, or everlasting peace that's fine by me. I have no mandate to tell them they're wrong. In fact I will even acknowledge the fact that they could be right. Some people even believe there could be many paths to God. Who really knows? No one does, which is why I find this such a fascinating topic.
Most people are convinced that their beliefs are %100 correct. If anyone believes they have found enlightenment, the way to heaven, or everlasting peace that's fine by me. I have no mandate to tell them they're wrong. In fact I will even acknowledge the fact that they could be right. Some people even believe there could be many paths to God. Who really knows? No one does, which is why I find this such a fascinating topic.
twospirits
09-29-2005, 08:49 PM
God gives everyone the gift of salvation. It depends on whether you accept or reject it. Those who have not heard the Word of God will have an opportunity, but if you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible emphatically states that you are damned. How does your rejection of an opportunity make God close-minded?Now that brings up another question. If you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible states that you are damned? Say what. What about millions of Jews, Buddists (sp) etc, that don't. Are they to be damn. So much for a kind and loving God.
What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well. If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.
Still, I can see the concept of a God. One God, whatever you may choose to call him/her/it. But to say if you reject Jesus Christ you are damn, give me a freaking break. Most folks in the world believe in a God, and he/she/it has many names (http://www.allthenamesofgod.com/atnog.htm), but not eveyone believes in Jesus. So to suggest that those that don't will be damn is arrogant and absurd.
:2cents:
TS out
What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well. If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.
Still, I can see the concept of a God. One God, whatever you may choose to call him/her/it. But to say if you reject Jesus Christ you are damn, give me a freaking break. Most folks in the world believe in a God, and he/she/it has many names (http://www.allthenamesofgod.com/atnog.htm), but not eveyone believes in Jesus. So to suggest that those that don't will be damn is arrogant and absurd.
:2cents:
TS out
blakscorpion21
09-29-2005, 09:36 PM
if jesus is gods son and we are all gods children that would make us brothers so why is he so special.and in the bible it says that we are brothers with christ and all heirs to the throne of god(implying that god will die someday?). and in the 10 commandments it says do not worship any gods except god himself. so if you worship jesus as a god which all christian people do arent u breaking the commandments. coorect me if im wrong but just a thought.
AlmostStock
09-29-2005, 10:37 PM
Now that brings up another question. If you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible states that you are damned?
I don't think you can interpret the New Testament any other way. It does trouble me. (as in hard for me to believe)
I don't think you can interpret the New Testament any other way. It does trouble me. (as in hard for me to believe)
blakscorpion21
09-30-2005, 10:12 PM
hmmm wonder why he got banned? 3000 posts down the drain.
ct91rs
09-30-2005, 10:44 PM
I should preface my comment by stating that I am by no means a theologian, and have no formal religious training. I have been attempting to provide the most satisfying, yet Biblically accurate answers, I am capable of.
if jesus is gods son and we are all gods children that would make us brothers so why is he so special.and in the bible it says that we are brothers with christ and all heirs to the throne of god(implying that god will die someday?).
We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.
Hebrews 12:2
”Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Matthew 19:28
”Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne…”
Matthew 25:31
”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.”
Revelation 3:21
”To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me [Jesus] on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
Revelation 8:9-10
“Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.”
Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate or imply that God will cease to exist. That would be a contradiction of God’s nature(eternal).
and in the 10 commandments it says do not worship any gods except god himself. so if you worship jesus as a god which all christian people do arent u breaking the commandments. coorect me if im wrong but just a thought.
That is an astute observation.
There are two main points I would like to touch on.
1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.
2. The second part, and more to your point, is eminently more difficult to explain and understand. There is one God, and at the same time there are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the concept of a Trinity which is clearly taught in the Bible. These are not separate, yet they are distinct, and God is simultaneously all three persons at the same time. The Trinity goes beyond reason, but not against it. Many non-Christians may look at this represented as 1+1+1=3 persons, but it is more like 1x1x1=1, to use a very poor analogy. Thus, whether you are worshipping Jesus, God the Father, or the Holy Spirit, you are worshipping the same (single) God. Therefore, when you reject Jesus you also reject God.
if jesus is gods son and we are all gods children that would make us brothers so why is he so special.and in the bible it says that we are brothers with christ and all heirs to the throne of god(implying that god will die someday?).
We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.
Hebrews 12:2
”Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Matthew 19:28
”Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne…”
Matthew 25:31
”When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.”
Revelation 3:21
”To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me [Jesus] on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.”
Revelation 8:9-10
“Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.”
Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate or imply that God will cease to exist. That would be a contradiction of God’s nature(eternal).
and in the 10 commandments it says do not worship any gods except god himself. so if you worship jesus as a god which all christian people do arent u breaking the commandments. coorect me if im wrong but just a thought.
That is an astute observation.
There are two main points I would like to touch on.
1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.
2. The second part, and more to your point, is eminently more difficult to explain and understand. There is one God, and at the same time there are three distinct persons who are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the concept of a Trinity which is clearly taught in the Bible. These are not separate, yet they are distinct, and God is simultaneously all three persons at the same time. The Trinity goes beyond reason, but not against it. Many non-Christians may look at this represented as 1+1+1=3 persons, but it is more like 1x1x1=1, to use a very poor analogy. Thus, whether you are worshipping Jesus, God the Father, or the Holy Spirit, you are worshipping the same (single) God. Therefore, when you reject Jesus you also reject God.
twospirits
09-30-2005, 11:21 PM
hmmm wonder why he got banned? 3000 posts down the drain.:lol: For a moment I was thinking what is he talking about. Who got banned? And I see its me. :lol: Naa I'm not banned (even though alot would be rejoicing if I was). I just put that title for a short while, I may change it back.
Okay lets continue with the discussion..
We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.If that is true, then God surely sent a very limited version of himself, since God to my understanding is capable of much more than what Jesus did on earth. Then there is the point of if he is God then why go through the pain and suffering by his people by being wipped, hit and cruxified?
1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.In basically, the Christians and their version of God is better than teh Jewish (or any other) God version. That still leaves them out of the loop of coming into heaven. Which brings me back to my point, What about all those other folks that do not believe in Jesus. Are they to be kept out of the kingdom of God?
TS out
Okay lets continue with the discussion..
We were all created in God’s image. Jesus is special because He is God in the human form.If that is true, then God surely sent a very limited version of himself, since God to my understanding is capable of much more than what Jesus did on earth. Then there is the point of if he is God then why go through the pain and suffering by his people by being wipped, hit and cruxified?
1. Christians should live by the 10 commandments, but they are not “under the law” as those of the Jewish faith are. Jews believe they must follow the commandments to win the approval and acceptance of God, and to achieve salvation. Christians also follow the commandments, but they have been saved by the grace of God. This grace is a gift from God, faith in Jesus Christ, and not something attained or achieved by human volition.In basically, the Christians and their version of God is better than teh Jewish (or any other) God version. That still leaves them out of the loop of coming into heaven. Which brings me back to my point, What about all those other folks that do not believe in Jesus. Are they to be kept out of the kingdom of God?
TS out
ct91rs
09-30-2005, 11:26 PM
Now that brings up another question. If you reject Jesus Christ, the Bible states that you are damned? Say what. What about millions of Jews, Buddists (sp) etc, that don't. Are they to be damn.
Yes, as AlmostStock stated, there is no other way to interpret the New Testament.
So much for a kind and loving God.
Not so fast. God is kind and loving, but He is also righteous and just. The New Testament makes abundantly clear that without Christ you will not see eternal life. It does not indicate that those who have never heard the message of Christ will be damned. God is just, so everyone will be given the opportunity to profess Jesus as Lord. If you reject the gift, you reject God Himself, and thus you will have condemned yourself.
What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well.
These questions, while intriguing, are impossible for a human being to answer.
If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.
That's correct, after the crucifixion, Jesus’ disciples actually denounced their affiliation with Him, feeling that He may not be God, and wishing to avoid persecution, possibly crucifixion, themselves. But then He rose again, and appeared to them. They came back with an unbelievable zeal. Roman guards were stationed at His tomb. It was found to be empty. Both Caesar and the Jews viewed Jesus and His followers as a thorn in their side, a threat to their power. All they needed to do was to produce the body and Christianity would have ceased to exist. They could have shown that He didn't rise from the dead, but with Roman centurions on the guard, the body had disappeared.
Late liberal scholar John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge conceded that the burial of Jesus Christ “is one of the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus.” Scholar D. H. van Daalen has noted, “It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions.”
“When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what’s really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb. Not only did women have low social status in Jewish society, but their testimonies were not even legally valid. “Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb….This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing.” Lee Strobel (Former atheist and legal editor for the Chicago Tribune)
Still, I can see the concept of a God. One God, whatever you may choose to call him/her/it. But to say if you reject Jesus Christ you are damn, give me a freaking break. Most folks in the world believe in a God, and he/she/it has many names (http://www.allthenamesofgod.com/atnog.htm), but not everyone believes in Jesus. So to suggest that those that don't will be damn is arrogant and absurd.
If Jesus existed, and is who He claimed to be, as I attempted to explain about the Trinity to blakscorpion21, you cannot reject Jesus without rejecting God, they are one in the same.
Many intellectually informed atheists will affirm that Jesus existed, and was a good moral teacher; that being the case, there are only a few alternatives:
“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.” - CS Lewis
I’m sorry you feel this is an arrogant position. I consider myself better than no man. I feel it has been made abundantly clear to me that Jesus is God. It is therefore my duty as a Christian to inform others of the gift of salvation. If Jesus was who He said He was, the New Testament must be right, and He is the only way to God. You can either accept or reject this. I am merely trying to peak your curiosity and give you the opportunity to get to know Him. :bigthumb:
Yes, as AlmostStock stated, there is no other way to interpret the New Testament.
So much for a kind and loving God.
Not so fast. God is kind and loving, but He is also righteous and just. The New Testament makes abundantly clear that without Christ you will not see eternal life. It does not indicate that those who have never heard the message of Christ will be damned. God is just, so everyone will be given the opportunity to profess Jesus as Lord. If you reject the gift, you reject God Himself, and thus you will have condemned yourself.
What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well.
These questions, while intriguing, are impossible for a human being to answer.
If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.
That's correct, after the crucifixion, Jesus’ disciples actually denounced their affiliation with Him, feeling that He may not be God, and wishing to avoid persecution, possibly crucifixion, themselves. But then He rose again, and appeared to them. They came back with an unbelievable zeal. Roman guards were stationed at His tomb. It was found to be empty. Both Caesar and the Jews viewed Jesus and His followers as a thorn in their side, a threat to their power. All they needed to do was to produce the body and Christianity would have ceased to exist. They could have shown that He didn't rise from the dead, but with Roman centurions on the guard, the body had disappeared.
Late liberal scholar John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge conceded that the burial of Jesus Christ “is one of the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus.” Scholar D. H. van Daalen has noted, “It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions.”
“When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what’s really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb. Not only did women have low social status in Jewish society, but their testimonies were not even legally valid. “Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb….This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing.” Lee Strobel (Former atheist and legal editor for the Chicago Tribune)
Still, I can see the concept of a God. One God, whatever you may choose to call him/her/it. But to say if you reject Jesus Christ you are damn, give me a freaking break. Most folks in the world believe in a God, and he/she/it has many names (http://www.allthenamesofgod.com/atnog.htm), but not everyone believes in Jesus. So to suggest that those that don't will be damn is arrogant and absurd.
If Jesus existed, and is who He claimed to be, as I attempted to explain about the Trinity to blakscorpion21, you cannot reject Jesus without rejecting God, they are one in the same.
Many intellectually informed atheists will affirm that Jesus existed, and was a good moral teacher; that being the case, there are only a few alternatives:
“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.” - CS Lewis
I’m sorry you feel this is an arrogant position. I consider myself better than no man. I feel it has been made abundantly clear to me that Jesus is God. It is therefore my duty as a Christian to inform others of the gift of salvation. If Jesus was who He said He was, the New Testament must be right, and He is the only way to God. You can either accept or reject this. I am merely trying to peak your curiosity and give you the opportunity to get to know Him. :bigthumb:
twospirits
09-30-2005, 11:59 PM
I am merely trying to peak your curiosity and give you the opportunity to get to know Him. :bigthumb:Trust me when I say I am always curious, which is why I ask such questions. I may or may not agree with all thats said, but I do find the responces quite informative and interesting. I do believe that Jesus existed, but not to the extent that the Bible states. Since the Bible has been re-written by man over and over. Who knows what the real truth is, but I am one that needs more proof or results.
TS out
TS out
DGB454
10-01-2005, 10:38 AM
What I don't get is this. If God really wanted his message about his dying son forgiving our sins, why just place him in only one spot on earth to do the message. Lord knows (pun intended) there were millions of folks already living elsewhere in the world. Why not have all those also experience that vision at the same time. Or place more sons around the earth as well. If I am not mistaken the incident that happened with Jesus did not make world wide converts at the time. It took centuries and if it wasn't for one ruler in Rome to make it the official religion, I seriously doubt it would have grown so much. It would have been one of the countless cults of the day.
TS out
I won't attempt to answer the questions that have already been answered by CT91RS (wonderfully I might add). This one I do have my own interpritation though.
"It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. "(Hebrews 9:27)
When Jesus came into this world He came as a man. He came with a purpose. The purpose was to become a sacrifice for all people. I don't believe it was His intention to spread His message of salvation to all the world. That's the job of His followers. Jesus fulfilled His mission here and died once then came His judgement. Because He carried the sins of the world with Him he was judged for us (or in place of us). Since He was not guilty of any sins of His own then He was allowed into heaven. I believe at that time He was still judged under the law because the age of grace hadn't begun. Actually it couldn't begin until after He entered heaven and sat at the throne. At that time our sins were basically tossed out if we choose to become a follower of Christ. Remember He died for those sins. If we reject Him then we are judged on our own merits. "Sin cannot enter heaven" , "All have sinned and fallen short.."
Anyway what it comes down to is He died in only one place and only once because at that time He was a man and it only took one man to be a sacrafice for everyone.:2cents:
TS out
I won't attempt to answer the questions that have already been answered by CT91RS (wonderfully I might add). This one I do have my own interpritation though.
"It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment. "(Hebrews 9:27)
When Jesus came into this world He came as a man. He came with a purpose. The purpose was to become a sacrifice for all people. I don't believe it was His intention to spread His message of salvation to all the world. That's the job of His followers. Jesus fulfilled His mission here and died once then came His judgement. Because He carried the sins of the world with Him he was judged for us (or in place of us). Since He was not guilty of any sins of His own then He was allowed into heaven. I believe at that time He was still judged under the law because the age of grace hadn't begun. Actually it couldn't begin until after He entered heaven and sat at the throne. At that time our sins were basically tossed out if we choose to become a follower of Christ. Remember He died for those sins. If we reject Him then we are judged on our own merits. "Sin cannot enter heaven" , "All have sinned and fallen short.."
Anyway what it comes down to is He died in only one place and only once because at that time He was a man and it only took one man to be a sacrafice for everyone.:2cents:
blakscorpion21
10-01-2005, 11:22 AM
what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell? and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.
DGB454
10-01-2005, 03:09 PM
what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell? and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.
ct91rs will have to help me out with the exact verses here. I'm better at giving my interpretations of what I have learned and studied than I am at memorizing verses.
The people who lived before Jesus were in Sheol(sp?). Basically it's a place where they were staying until Christ died and made a way for them to enter heaven. Remember that sin cannot enter heaven so a sacrafice had to be made that washed away their sin.
Satan was not a man. He was created as Lucifer. He was the most powerful of all the angels. He became filled with pride and decided to try and overthrow God. Other angels sided with him and they were all tossed out of heaven into hell. He was given (or retained) certain powers on earth. Basically his power is to tempt. As I understand it he was thrown out of heaven before man was created. So even in the garden he was tempting Adam and Eve.
ct91rs will have to help me out with the exact verses here. I'm better at giving my interpretations of what I have learned and studied than I am at memorizing verses.
The people who lived before Jesus were in Sheol(sp?). Basically it's a place where they were staying until Christ died and made a way for them to enter heaven. Remember that sin cannot enter heaven so a sacrafice had to be made that washed away their sin.
Satan was not a man. He was created as Lucifer. He was the most powerful of all the angels. He became filled with pride and decided to try and overthrow God. Other angels sided with him and they were all tossed out of heaven into hell. He was given (or retained) certain powers on earth. Basically his power is to tempt. As I understand it he was thrown out of heaven before man was created. So even in the garden he was tempting Adam and Eve.
AlmostStock
10-02-2005, 02:41 AM
:lol: For a moment I was thinking what is he talking about. Who got banned? And I see its me. :lol: Naa I'm not banned (even though alot would be rejoicing if I was). I just put that title for a short while, I may change it back.
How about "Banned, yet I rise again" :p
How about "Banned, yet I rise again" :p
AlmostStock
10-02-2005, 02:33 PM
Remember that sin cannot enter heaven so a sacrafice had to be made that washed away their sin.
I always wondered how a sacrifice could atone for any ones sins. The Old Testament is filled with animal sacrifice. Why would this please God? He could have all the animals he wanted, dead or alive. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but the people still ate and used the animal after it's death right? So it wasn't like they were really even giving up anything.
Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.
I always wondered how a sacrifice could atone for any ones sins. The Old Testament is filled with animal sacrifice. Why would this please God? He could have all the animals he wanted, dead or alive. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but the people still ate and used the animal after it's death right? So it wasn't like they were really even giving up anything.
Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.
ct91rs
10-02-2005, 07:36 PM
what about all the people that lived before jesus was born? did they all go to hell?
No. Those living before Jesus were judged by their faith in God. They were purified of their sins by the blood of Christ. Remember, Christ has always existed. His death paid for the sins of all mankind, not just those who lived after Him.
The Bible does not directly answer the question about the fate of those who have not heard of Christ. But there are some things that we can infer, based on related passages, and overall themes.
Every soul that has ever lived will appear before God’s throne to face judgment. Belief in Christ is necessary for your name to appear in the book of life. God has described Himself as being just, and will allow anyone who has tired earnestly too seek Him the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ.
God says, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13)
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
Romans 2:6-8 “God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. "
Revelation 20:12-15 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.
True, that would be illogical, but Satan was not born, he was an angle created by God. As DGB454 pointed out, He was created as Lucifer (literally meaning light-bearer). But he chose to rebel against God.
Luke 10:18 “He [Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon[satan], and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Ezekiel 28:12-17 ...You [Lucifer]were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you...
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub[angel], for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor...
No. Those living before Jesus were judged by their faith in God. They were purified of their sins by the blood of Christ. Remember, Christ has always existed. His death paid for the sins of all mankind, not just those who lived after Him.
The Bible does not directly answer the question about the fate of those who have not heard of Christ. But there are some things that we can infer, based on related passages, and overall themes.
Every soul that has ever lived will appear before God’s throne to face judgment. Belief in Christ is necessary for your name to appear in the book of life. God has described Himself as being just, and will allow anyone who has tired earnestly too seek Him the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ.
God says, “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13)
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
Romans 2:6-8 “God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. "
Revelation 20:12-15 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
and if satan was once a man then an angel and then the devil. how could he have been in the devil stage when adam and eve were around if they were the first people and the universe was just created satan wouldnt have been born, died, and fallen from heraven so he couldnt have been around in the garden cause no other people have been born yet. and if satan is just a dead man what gives him more power than any other man.
True, that would be illogical, but Satan was not born, he was an angle created by God. As DGB454 pointed out, He was created as Lucifer (literally meaning light-bearer). But he chose to rebel against God.
Luke 10:18 “He [Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon[satan], and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Isaiah 14:12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Ezekiel 28:12-17 ...You [Lucifer]were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you...
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub[angel], for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor...
DGB454
10-02-2005, 08:30 PM
I always wondered how a sacrifice could atone for any ones sins. The Old Testament is filled with animal sacrifice. Why would this please God? He could have all the animals he wanted, dead or alive. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but the people still ate and used the animal after it's death right? So it wasn't like they were really even giving up anything.
An animal sacrifice was more symbolic than anything IMO. A life for a life.
Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.
You have it exactly right.It was all leading up to the ultimate sacrifice. God Himself sacrificed His Son. Or as I see it; God sacrificed Himself because Jesus was God in the flesh. So the one who created us came down to our level and showed us how muched He loved and cared for us by going through all of that.
How it works? God only knows. He set up the rules so we either play by them or play by our own rules.
An animal sacrifice was more symbolic than anything IMO. A life for a life.
Then we have the New Testament. Jesus giving his life for our sins is just an extension of the same logic, except he's the ultimate and final sacrifice. We kill an animal (or Gods son) and God forgives our sins. I never understood how that works.
You have it exactly right.It was all leading up to the ultimate sacrifice. God Himself sacrificed His Son. Or as I see it; God sacrificed Himself because Jesus was God in the flesh. So the one who created us came down to our level and showed us how muched He loved and cared for us by going through all of that.
How it works? God only knows. He set up the rules so we either play by them or play by our own rules.
DGB454
10-02-2005, 08:40 PM
No. Those living before Jesus were judged by their faith in God. They were purified of their sins by the blood of Christ. Remember, Christ has always existed. His death paid for the sins of all mankind, not just those who lived after Him.
ct91rs
Question:
Does this verse in your opinion refer to those that died before Jesus?
(Luke 23:43) and at His ascension He led "captivity captive" and delivered the prisoners of hope from paradise and led them to heaven.
Thanks
DGB
ct91rs
Question:
Does this verse in your opinion refer to those that died before Jesus?
(Luke 23:43) and at His ascension He led "captivity captive" and delivered the prisoners of hope from paradise and led them to heaven.
Thanks
DGB
blakscorpion21
10-02-2005, 10:33 PM
but why is satan stronger than a man?
DGB454
10-03-2005, 05:46 AM
He was created with more powers than man. Temptation is the only power he is able to use against man.
blakscorpion21
10-03-2005, 10:33 AM
if god dislikes satan so much why doesnt he just destroy him?
ct91rs
10-04-2005, 12:40 PM
if god dislikes satan so much why doesnt he just destroy him?
God doesn't just eliminate anything he has created. Again, He gives the beings He has created the right to choose. But He will not simply destroy those who do not choose Him.
ct91rs
Question:
Does this verse in your opinion refer to those that died before Jesus?
(Luke 23:43) and at His ascension He led "captivity captive" and delivered the prisoners of hope from paradise and led them to heaven.
Thanks
DGB
Not from what I understand. The verse Luke 23:43 reads, "Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (NIV)
I am unable to go into a detailed discussion of what is actually ment by this passage at the moment, but if you go to this link, http://www.ucg.org/booklets/index.htm, and click on the pdf file titled "Heaven And Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach?" I think you will get an accurate perspective.
God doesn't just eliminate anything he has created. Again, He gives the beings He has created the right to choose. But He will not simply destroy those who do not choose Him.
ct91rs
Question:
Does this verse in your opinion refer to those that died before Jesus?
(Luke 23:43) and at His ascension He led "captivity captive" and delivered the prisoners of hope from paradise and led them to heaven.
Thanks
DGB
Not from what I understand. The verse Luke 23:43 reads, "Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (NIV)
I am unable to go into a detailed discussion of what is actually ment by this passage at the moment, but if you go to this link, http://www.ucg.org/booklets/index.htm, and click on the pdf file titled "Heaven And Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach?" I think you will get an accurate perspective.
thrasher
10-04-2005, 04:27 PM
God doesn't just eliminate anything he has created. Again, He gives the beings He has created the right to choose. But He will not simply destroy those who do not choose Him.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...that's why he sends down these horrible tsunami's that kill hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are no doubt innocent and deserve the grace of god.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...that's why he sends down these horrible tsunami's that kill hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are no doubt innocent and deserve the grace of god.
2.2 Straight six
10-04-2005, 05:05 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...that's why he sends down these horrible tsunami's that kill hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are no doubt innocent and deserve the grace of god.
im not expert on religous stuff, but what i was told by the chaplain in my old school (we had religous studies lessons) was that god chose to be powerless at some point, and therefore "natural disasters" are out of god's control and are caused by something else.
im not expert on religous stuff, but what i was told by the chaplain in my old school (we had religous studies lessons) was that god chose to be powerless at some point, and therefore "natural disasters" are out of god's control and are caused by something else.
thrasher
10-04-2005, 05:57 PM
As far as I know there is not mention of god being powerless in scripture. If that were true, the whole Noah's Ark shenanigans couldn't have taken place. And if god does strike down hundreds of thousands of people with natural disasters, well I don't see how that would qualify him as being "good."
2.2 Straight six
10-04-2005, 06:17 PM
no, what i said was "at some point" i know what you mean about noah's ark, so i can only assume when the chaplain said at some point god chose to be powerless he must have meant after that, i dont know much about this subject though, sorry.
ct91rs
10-05-2005, 11:06 AM
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...that's why he sends down these horrible tsunami's that kill hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom are no doubt innocent and deserve the grace of god.
As far as I know there is not mention of god being powerless in scripture. If that were true, the whole Noah's Ark shenanigans couldn't have taken place. And if god does strike down hundreds of thousands of people with natural disasters, well I don't see how that would qualify him as being "good."
God is never powerless, and He doesn't "send down" tsunami's, they are a natural phenomenon which He allows to occur.
"A very large portion of suffering from these natural evils is the result of neglect or shortsightedness on the part of human beings: homes build near temporarily inactive volcanoes, cities built on earth faults, businesses and residences continue to build and rebuild on the general shorelines most likely to be hit by hurricanes. Risk-taking accounts for a large portion of natural evils."
"A large part of the defect we think we observe in the natural world is accounted for by logical necessity for human freedom."
"The point is that miracle is not God's general modus operandi . The entire natural system would be superfluous and even redundant if God managed everything directly. What we observe as the uniformity of nature would be an illusion, and the appearance of dependable, calculable natural laws would be a mockery of the notion of freedom-if God's mode of operation were constant "intervention". Before we expect from God too much interference, we should remember that the natural causal system itself is His own creation. Natural laws governing processes of physical restoration and health are His laws, so God's general method of healing is perfectly appropriate to His own created system. To ask Him to intervene is to expect Him to intercept his own laws and to suspend his general procedures. That is true not only when the natural casual laws affect a slow, systematic recovery but also when they lead to the cessation of life. To ask for healing is appropriate to our relationship with God as children, but we must remember the gravity of our request. We are asking him to break his own general rules to perform an exception on our behalf. Many times an exception would have to be made at too great a cost to the system through which the human family finds security and freedom."
Jon Tal Murphree
“The permanent nature of wood which enables us to use it as a beam also enables us to use it for hitting our neighbor on the head.”
“So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involves, and you will have excluded life itself.” C.S. Lewis
As far as I know there is not mention of god being powerless in scripture. If that were true, the whole Noah's Ark shenanigans couldn't have taken place. And if god does strike down hundreds of thousands of people with natural disasters, well I don't see how that would qualify him as being "good."
God is never powerless, and He doesn't "send down" tsunami's, they are a natural phenomenon which He allows to occur.
"A very large portion of suffering from these natural evils is the result of neglect or shortsightedness on the part of human beings: homes build near temporarily inactive volcanoes, cities built on earth faults, businesses and residences continue to build and rebuild on the general shorelines most likely to be hit by hurricanes. Risk-taking accounts for a large portion of natural evils."
"A large part of the defect we think we observe in the natural world is accounted for by logical necessity for human freedom."
"The point is that miracle is not God's general modus operandi . The entire natural system would be superfluous and even redundant if God managed everything directly. What we observe as the uniformity of nature would be an illusion, and the appearance of dependable, calculable natural laws would be a mockery of the notion of freedom-if God's mode of operation were constant "intervention". Before we expect from God too much interference, we should remember that the natural causal system itself is His own creation. Natural laws governing processes of physical restoration and health are His laws, so God's general method of healing is perfectly appropriate to His own created system. To ask Him to intervene is to expect Him to intercept his own laws and to suspend his general procedures. That is true not only when the natural casual laws affect a slow, systematic recovery but also when they lead to the cessation of life. To ask for healing is appropriate to our relationship with God as children, but we must remember the gravity of our request. We are asking him to break his own general rules to perform an exception on our behalf. Many times an exception would have to be made at too great a cost to the system through which the human family finds security and freedom."
Jon Tal Murphree
“The permanent nature of wood which enables us to use it as a beam also enables us to use it for hitting our neighbor on the head.”
“So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involves, and you will have excluded life itself.” C.S. Lewis
thrasher
10-05-2005, 11:43 AM
I still don't understand how that negates the fact that god causes the tsunamis. Regardless of whether he directly intervenes in everyday life, he created the weather patterns that kill hundreds of thousands. In his infinite knowledge, he could (should) have created a world where natural disasters do NOT kill innocent people. There is no reason for it at all...it indicates an utter lack of goodness that he/she is supposed to possess. He does not directly take innocent lives, but he makes choices that he KNOWS will result in the deaths of innocents, which is not very respectable from a moral stand point. We know that god is supposed to be just and good, but for you to claim that such tragedies are in any way just or good is preposterous.
Besides, in the traditional view god DOES intervene in everyday life. Saints cannot be cannonized without 3 documented cases of divine intervention (miracles). Not to mention thousands of people god (Jesus) directly interacted with and helped (and healed) while he was god on earth.
Oh, and BTW, your first quite is absolutely ridiculous. Water is an absolute neccesity for life. We cannot possibly survive without water, thus it is in our best interests to live near sources of water. Where were people supposed to live before modern water transportation systems existed. In fact, where are people in poor countries (like SE Asia, aka the tsunami area) supposed to get their water? They have to live near bodies of water. So this just and fair god makes the basis of our existence water, but we are not supposed to live near water in fear of catastrophic loss of life resulting from hurricanes that arise from large bodies of water.
Besides, in the traditional view god DOES intervene in everyday life. Saints cannot be cannonized without 3 documented cases of divine intervention (miracles). Not to mention thousands of people god (Jesus) directly interacted with and helped (and healed) while he was god on earth.
Oh, and BTW, your first quite is absolutely ridiculous. Water is an absolute neccesity for life. We cannot possibly survive without water, thus it is in our best interests to live near sources of water. Where were people supposed to live before modern water transportation systems existed. In fact, where are people in poor countries (like SE Asia, aka the tsunami area) supposed to get their water? They have to live near bodies of water. So this just and fair god makes the basis of our existence water, but we are not supposed to live near water in fear of catastrophic loss of life resulting from hurricanes that arise from large bodies of water.
RickwithaTbird
10-05-2005, 04:51 PM
God is never powerless, and He doesn't "send down" tsunami's, they are a natural phenomenon which He allows to occur.
"A very large portion of suffering from these natural evils is the result of neglect or shortsightedness on the part of human beings: homes build near temporarily inactive volcanoes, cities built on earth faults, businesses and residences continue to build and rebuild on the general shorelines most likely to be hit by hurricanes. Risk-taking accounts for a large portion of natural evils."
"A large part of the defect we think we observe in the natural world is accounted for by logical necessity for human freedom."
"The point is that miracle is not God's general modus operandi . The entire natural system would be superfluous and even redundant if God managed everything directly. What we observe as the uniformity of nature would be an illusion, and the appearance of dependable, calculable natural laws would be a mockery of the notion of freedom-if God's mode of operation were constant "intervention". Before we expect from God too much interference, we should remember that the natural causal system itself is His own creation. Natural laws governing processes of physical restoration and health are His laws, so God's general method of healing is perfectly appropriate to His own created system. To ask Him to intervene is to expect Him to intercept his own laws and to suspend his general procedures. That is true not only when the natural casual laws affect a slow, systematic recovery but also when they lead to the cessation of life. To ask for healing is appropriate to our relationship with God as children, but we must remember the gravity of our request. We are asking him to break his own general rules to perform an exception on our behalf. Many times an exception would have to be made at too great a cost to the system through which the human family finds security and freedom."
Jon Tal Murphree
“The permanent nature of wood which enables us to use it as a beam also enables us to use it for hitting our neighbor on the head.”
“So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involves, and you will have excluded life itself.” C.S. Lewis
good post.
"A very large portion of suffering from these natural evils is the result of neglect or shortsightedness on the part of human beings: homes build near temporarily inactive volcanoes, cities built on earth faults, businesses and residences continue to build and rebuild on the general shorelines most likely to be hit by hurricanes. Risk-taking accounts for a large portion of natural evils."
"A large part of the defect we think we observe in the natural world is accounted for by logical necessity for human freedom."
"The point is that miracle is not God's general modus operandi . The entire natural system would be superfluous and even redundant if God managed everything directly. What we observe as the uniformity of nature would be an illusion, and the appearance of dependable, calculable natural laws would be a mockery of the notion of freedom-if God's mode of operation were constant "intervention". Before we expect from God too much interference, we should remember that the natural causal system itself is His own creation. Natural laws governing processes of physical restoration and health are His laws, so God's general method of healing is perfectly appropriate to His own created system. To ask Him to intervene is to expect Him to intercept his own laws and to suspend his general procedures. That is true not only when the natural casual laws affect a slow, systematic recovery but also when they lead to the cessation of life. To ask for healing is appropriate to our relationship with God as children, but we must remember the gravity of our request. We are asking him to break his own general rules to perform an exception on our behalf. Many times an exception would have to be made at too great a cost to the system through which the human family finds security and freedom."
Jon Tal Murphree
“The permanent nature of wood which enables us to use it as a beam also enables us to use it for hitting our neighbor on the head.”
“So it is with the life of souls in a world: fixed laws, consequences unfolding by causal necessity, the whole natural order, are at once the limits within which their common life is confined and also the sole condition under which any such life is possible. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involves, and you will have excluded life itself.” C.S. Lewis
good post.
ct91rs
10-05-2005, 05:59 PM
good post.
Thanks Rick, I'm just trying to articulate an understated/misunderstood position.
I still don't understand how that negates the fact that god causes the tsunamis.
Oh thrasher my friend, I don't seem to be explaining things very well, and for that I apologize.
God only "causes" the tsunamis in the sense that He has created the Universe and our planet bound to certain laws/forces of nature. The conditions are necessary to support human life; and also at times, they have adverse consequences. Those same weather patterns sustain over 8 Billion people.
If God didn’t create the fundamental laws of nature to operate exactly as they do, life as we know it would not be possible.
If the electromagnetic force which controls the structure and interactions of atoms and molecules was weaker, electrons would not be bound to atoms, and no chemical reactions would be possible. If it were stronger, electrons would reside inside the nuclei, and no chemical reactions would be possible.
If the gravitational force which controls the structure and dynamics of planets, stars, and galaxies was weaker, stars would not reach temperatures capable of sustaining thermonuclear reactions (i.e. no Sun). If it were stronger the nuclear reactions in stellar interiors would be very rapid. The lifetimes of stars would be too short, and no G-type stars (necessary to support advanced life) would exist. (Only 5% of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy are G-type.)
Stephen Hawking – on the rate of expansion of the early Universe - “if changed anywhere up to the 55th decimal place, you wouldn’t exist.”
If the universe contained more than 10 billion trillion start, fusion would be so efficient, stars would burn up too quickly and erratically to support a planet carrying life. Conversely, fewer than 10 billion trillion stars would never fuse the heavier elements (carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) essential for life.
“Astronomers and physicists…have found it impossible to hypothesize a universe containing life in which any one of the fundamental constants of physics or any of the several parameters of the universe is more than slightly different in on way or another.” Hugh Ross - PhD. Astrophysicist
"God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein
...for you to claim that such tragedies are in any way just or good is preposterous.
I would agree, if I made such a statement, but I have not made such a remark. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from criticizing me over something I have neither said or implied.
in the traditional view god DOES intervene in everyday life. Saints cannot be cannonized without 3 documented cases of divine intervention (miracles). Not to mention thousands of people god (Jesus) directly interacted with and helped (and healed) while he was god on earth.
Yes, He may intervene, but He does not actively control every situation.
Oh, and BTW, your first quite is absolutely ridiculous. Water is an absolute neccesity for life. We cannot possibly survive without water, thus it is in our best interests to live near sources of water. Where were people supposed to live before modern water transportation systems existed. In fact, where are people in poor countries (like SE Asia, aka the tsunami area) supposed to get their water? They have to live near bodies of water. So this just and fair god makes the basis of our existence water, but we are not supposed to live near water in fear of catastrophic loss of life resulting from hurricanes that arise from large bodies of water. Just freakin ridiculous, honestly.
This comment is illogical, unless you are unaware that people cannot survive on salt-water. Fresh-water (an absolute necessity for life) is found in rivers/streams/lakes/springs, not the ocean. There are clear benefits of living on the shore of an ocean (seafood/travel/trade), but you are also taking an unnecessary risk.
Thanks Rick, I'm just trying to articulate an understated/misunderstood position.
I still don't understand how that negates the fact that god causes the tsunamis.
Oh thrasher my friend, I don't seem to be explaining things very well, and for that I apologize.
God only "causes" the tsunamis in the sense that He has created the Universe and our planet bound to certain laws/forces of nature. The conditions are necessary to support human life; and also at times, they have adverse consequences. Those same weather patterns sustain over 8 Billion people.
If God didn’t create the fundamental laws of nature to operate exactly as they do, life as we know it would not be possible.
If the electromagnetic force which controls the structure and interactions of atoms and molecules was weaker, electrons would not be bound to atoms, and no chemical reactions would be possible. If it were stronger, electrons would reside inside the nuclei, and no chemical reactions would be possible.
If the gravitational force which controls the structure and dynamics of planets, stars, and galaxies was weaker, stars would not reach temperatures capable of sustaining thermonuclear reactions (i.e. no Sun). If it were stronger the nuclear reactions in stellar interiors would be very rapid. The lifetimes of stars would be too short, and no G-type stars (necessary to support advanced life) would exist. (Only 5% of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy are G-type.)
Stephen Hawking – on the rate of expansion of the early Universe - “if changed anywhere up to the 55th decimal place, you wouldn’t exist.”
If the universe contained more than 10 billion trillion start, fusion would be so efficient, stars would burn up too quickly and erratically to support a planet carrying life. Conversely, fewer than 10 billion trillion stars would never fuse the heavier elements (carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, etc.) essential for life.
“Astronomers and physicists…have found it impossible to hypothesize a universe containing life in which any one of the fundamental constants of physics or any of the several parameters of the universe is more than slightly different in on way or another.” Hugh Ross - PhD. Astrophysicist
"God does not play dice with the universe." Albert Einstein
...for you to claim that such tragedies are in any way just or good is preposterous.
I would agree, if I made such a statement, but I have not made such a remark. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from criticizing me over something I have neither said or implied.
in the traditional view god DOES intervene in everyday life. Saints cannot be cannonized without 3 documented cases of divine intervention (miracles). Not to mention thousands of people god (Jesus) directly interacted with and helped (and healed) while he was god on earth.
Yes, He may intervene, but He does not actively control every situation.
Oh, and BTW, your first quite is absolutely ridiculous. Water is an absolute neccesity for life. We cannot possibly survive without water, thus it is in our best interests to live near sources of water. Where were people supposed to live before modern water transportation systems existed. In fact, where are people in poor countries (like SE Asia, aka the tsunami area) supposed to get their water? They have to live near bodies of water. So this just and fair god makes the basis of our existence water, but we are not supposed to live near water in fear of catastrophic loss of life resulting from hurricanes that arise from large bodies of water. Just freakin ridiculous, honestly.
This comment is illogical, unless you are unaware that people cannot survive on salt-water. Fresh-water (an absolute necessity for life) is found in rivers/streams/lakes/springs, not the ocean. There are clear benefits of living on the shore of an ocean (seafood/travel/trade), but you are also taking an unnecessary risk.
blakscorpion21
10-06-2005, 07:52 AM
yes but god doesnt have to follow the rules of physics and nature. if he was all powerful things wouldind have to follow an order they would just be. aparently that works for everything else so why should the weather be bopund to laws?
ghetto7o2azn
10-06-2005, 08:03 PM
agreed... it says he flooded the world for noah to restart on, and he split the sea for moses to cross...
both of which are "illogical"
if god is real, then nothing has to be logical... thus just having faith
both of which are "illogical"
if god is real, then nothing has to be logical... thus just having faith
ct91rs
10-07-2005, 12:40 AM
agreed... it says he flooded the world for noah to restart on, and he split the sea for moses to cross... both of which are "illogical"
That is incorrect. There is strong evidence supporting the flood describe in the Bible being localized, through both science and scripture.
It has also been scientifically verified that if you are at the narrowest portion of the Red Sea, the water level is low, and you have the correct wind conditions, it could be temporarily parted. This is of course very unlikely to happen, but emminently possible.
if god is real, then nothing has to be logical... thus just having faith
yes but god doesnt have to follow the rules of physics and nature. if he was all powerful things wouldind have to follow an order they would just be. aparently that works for everything else so why should the weather be bopund to laws?
God created those rules/laws, so we could make some sense of how the natural world operates. Furthermore, God is a rational being. He is all powerful, but that does not mean He can do something that contradicts His nature.
The Bible describes many characteristics of God, including:
Rationality, Omniscience (infinite knowledge), Omnipotence (having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force, all-powerfull), Truthfulness, and Immutability (devoid of change in essence, attributes, consciousness, will, and promises)
Given these proposed attributes of God, let me pose a question:
Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?
This seems to be a very good question. People naturally assume that God, being God, can do anything. Therefore, it seems that God should be able to create such a rock. However, immediately you run into the problem of God's inability to lift the rock, thus necessitating some type of flaw or weakness on the part of God. But the flaw is not in God, rather it is in our conception of His character (Omnipotence). God is bound to His fundamental nature (Immutability). This does not mean that God is not all powerful, He can do anything that can be done with power. He has all power that is or could be. However, this infinite, unlimited, all consuming power does not include that which is pure nonsense or the creation of a contradictroy state of affairs. Within the realm of power, we mean that God can do anything that is logically possible for power to do. The category of powers, however, is itself restricted to the realm of things that are logically possible. As humans, we will never have a complete understanding of God, but He does allow us some knowledge about Himself.
That is incorrect. There is strong evidence supporting the flood describe in the Bible being localized, through both science and scripture.
It has also been scientifically verified that if you are at the narrowest portion of the Red Sea, the water level is low, and you have the correct wind conditions, it could be temporarily parted. This is of course very unlikely to happen, but emminently possible.
if god is real, then nothing has to be logical... thus just having faith
yes but god doesnt have to follow the rules of physics and nature. if he was all powerful things wouldind have to follow an order they would just be. aparently that works for everything else so why should the weather be bopund to laws?
God created those rules/laws, so we could make some sense of how the natural world operates. Furthermore, God is a rational being. He is all powerful, but that does not mean He can do something that contradicts His nature.
The Bible describes many characteristics of God, including:
Rationality, Omniscience (infinite knowledge), Omnipotence (having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force, all-powerfull), Truthfulness, and Immutability (devoid of change in essence, attributes, consciousness, will, and promises)
Given these proposed attributes of God, let me pose a question:
Can God create a rock that He cannot lift?
This seems to be a very good question. People naturally assume that God, being God, can do anything. Therefore, it seems that God should be able to create such a rock. However, immediately you run into the problem of God's inability to lift the rock, thus necessitating some type of flaw or weakness on the part of God. But the flaw is not in God, rather it is in our conception of His character (Omnipotence). God is bound to His fundamental nature (Immutability). This does not mean that God is not all powerful, He can do anything that can be done with power. He has all power that is or could be. However, this infinite, unlimited, all consuming power does not include that which is pure nonsense or the creation of a contradictroy state of affairs. Within the realm of power, we mean that God can do anything that is logically possible for power to do. The category of powers, however, is itself restricted to the realm of things that are logically possible. As humans, we will never have a complete understanding of God, but He does allow us some knowledge about Himself.
AlmostStock
10-07-2005, 12:29 PM
Although Ct and others here have done a good job of explaining what the bible says, that does not end the debate for everyone. For every answer the bible gives to these types of questions, it raises even more for many of us.
If God exists where did he come from? Many will just say He always was. Why is it some people cannot accept that the universe always existed with no creator, yet have no problem believing that God (who is even greater than the universe) always existed with no creator? Just because some books written by man say so? I guess it all comes down to faith.
If God "knows" everything, how can we truly have free will? If He knows what we're going to choose, even before we choose it, we no longer have free will because it has already been determined. There is no way you can logically have both.
If God exists where did he come from? Many will just say He always was. Why is it some people cannot accept that the universe always existed with no creator, yet have no problem believing that God (who is even greater than the universe) always existed with no creator? Just because some books written by man say so? I guess it all comes down to faith.
If God "knows" everything, how can we truly have free will? If He knows what we're going to choose, even before we choose it, we no longer have free will because it has already been determined. There is no way you can logically have both.
RickwithaTbird
10-07-2005, 01:58 PM
Although Ct and others here have done a good job of explaining what the bible says, that does not end the debate for everyone. For every answer the bible gives to these types of questions, it raises even more for many of us.
If God exists where did he come from? Many will just say He always was. Why is it some people cannot accept that the universe always existed with no creator, yet have no problem believing that God (who is even greater than the universe) always existed with no creator? Just because some books written by man say so? I guess it all comes down to faith.
If God "knows" everything, how can we truly have free will? If He knows what we're going to choose, even before we choose it, we no longer have free will because it has already been determined. There is no way you can logically have both.
these questions have already been answered in this thread.
about God always existing, rather than the universe just always existing; that's just what they believe. One is not easier to understand than the other IMO. They are both incredible to imagine. You can't knock one or the other, you just have to choose. And the belief is that God started time, and created space. If he didn't, then where did it come from? Can you answer that? I can't either.
About free will....
It was alreay said, and said well I might add; that even though God knows what decisions you are going to make, that doesn't mean he made the decisions for you. Kinda like if I know my girlfriend is gonna spend her whole paycheck on weed. She may not have the paycheck yet, and I may try to convince her that food and clothes are also important... but I know she won't listen. She uses her free will. Nothin I can do about it. Same with god.
If God exists where did he come from? Many will just say He always was. Why is it some people cannot accept that the universe always existed with no creator, yet have no problem believing that God (who is even greater than the universe) always existed with no creator? Just because some books written by man say so? I guess it all comes down to faith.
If God "knows" everything, how can we truly have free will? If He knows what we're going to choose, even before we choose it, we no longer have free will because it has already been determined. There is no way you can logically have both.
these questions have already been answered in this thread.
about God always existing, rather than the universe just always existing; that's just what they believe. One is not easier to understand than the other IMO. They are both incredible to imagine. You can't knock one or the other, you just have to choose. And the belief is that God started time, and created space. If he didn't, then where did it come from? Can you answer that? I can't either.
About free will....
It was alreay said, and said well I might add; that even though God knows what decisions you are going to make, that doesn't mean he made the decisions for you. Kinda like if I know my girlfriend is gonna spend her whole paycheck on weed. She may not have the paycheck yet, and I may try to convince her that food and clothes are also important... but I know she won't listen. She uses her free will. Nothin I can do about it. Same with god.
AlmostStock
10-07-2005, 03:58 PM
these questions have already been answered in this thread.
I have read every post in this thread. If these questions had been answered definitively I would not ask them. The fact is that they can't be, so here we are.
about God always existing, rather than the universe just always existing; that's just what they believe. One is not easier to understand than the other IMO. They are both incredible to imagine. You can't knock one or the other, you just have to choose.
I agree that both are not easy to understand, but you don't have to choose. Many are undecided/unconvinced, which is why we like to talk about it.
And the belief is that God started time, and created space. If he didn't, then where did it come from? Can you answer that? I can't either.
As already posted by me, no one can prove either. One just has more facts and seems easier to swallow than the other.
About free will....
It was already said, and said well I might add; that even though God knows what decisions you are going to make, that doesn't mean he made the decisions for you.
This sounds good at first glance but how can God "know" something that I haven't even decided on yet? It's just not possible. I understand just saying "He can because He's God" is good enough for some, and that's fine.
Kinda like if I know my girlfriend is gonna spend her whole paycheck on weed. She may not have the paycheck yet, and I may try to convince her that food and clothes are also important... but I know she won't listen. She uses her free will. Nothin I can do about it. Same with god.
I like your analogy. Does this mean that it's absolutely not possible for her to use her free will and surprise you?
I have read every post in this thread. If these questions had been answered definitively I would not ask them. The fact is that they can't be, so here we are.
about God always existing, rather than the universe just always existing; that's just what they believe. One is not easier to understand than the other IMO. They are both incredible to imagine. You can't knock one or the other, you just have to choose.
I agree that both are not easy to understand, but you don't have to choose. Many are undecided/unconvinced, which is why we like to talk about it.
And the belief is that God started time, and created space. If he didn't, then where did it come from? Can you answer that? I can't either.
As already posted by me, no one can prove either. One just has more facts and seems easier to swallow than the other.
About free will....
It was already said, and said well I might add; that even though God knows what decisions you are going to make, that doesn't mean he made the decisions for you.
This sounds good at first glance but how can God "know" something that I haven't even decided on yet? It's just not possible. I understand just saying "He can because He's God" is good enough for some, and that's fine.
Kinda like if I know my girlfriend is gonna spend her whole paycheck on weed. She may not have the paycheck yet, and I may try to convince her that food and clothes are also important... but I know she won't listen. She uses her free will. Nothin I can do about it. Same with god.
I like your analogy. Does this mean that it's absolutely not possible for her to use her free will and surprise you?
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