Sub Frame Welds

MY 2001 IMPALA HAS A LOUD BANGING, CRACKING NOISE FROM THE FRONT WHEN TURNING THE STEERING WHEEL AT NO SPEED OR VERY SLOW SPEED.
I was told today by chevy service the problem is defective / missing sub frame welds.
The defective welding causes the frame to flex, metal to metal.
Sometimes they replace the entire frame, but they will try a super glue type fix on the welds to reduce their cost.

They will try to have the customer pay for the defective/ missing welds.
This problem is very profitable for GM as it is frequently mis diagnosed as steering rack replacement, steering shaft replacement, mount replacement, steering shaft lube, etc...etc...
I wonder if the many crashes of police impala vehicles are related to the missing defective welds?

I thought these new fwd imps.didn't have frames. I thought they had a uni-body. like the imports. I know the 96's had weld problems but they sat on an actuall frame.

I thought these new fwd imps.didn't have frames. I thought they had a uni-body. like the imports. I know the 96's had weld problems but they sat on an actuall frame.

Impala's are Unibodies. Thats why bent frames usually result in totaled cars.

Impala's are Unibodies. Thats why bent frames usually result in totaled cars.

IMPALAS {MINE IS A 2001 IMPALA LS}
HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A SUB FRAME, A SQUARE MADE OF ALLUMINUM, NOT COVERING THE ENTIRE BODY, IT'S SMALLISH AND TIED INTO THE FRONT END.

IMPALAS {MINE IS A 2001 IMPALA LS}
HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A SUB FRAME, A SQUARE MADE OF ALLUMINUM, NOT COVERING THE ENTIRE BODY, IT'S SMALLISH AND TIED INTO THE FRONT END.

Yeah Yeah, I was reply to 3.4's comment about the frames. Impala's don't sit on frames, but there is the sub-frame for under the engine.

Thats correct, the impala has an aluminum engine cradle. I haven't really heard about the impalas and the missing welds. The person with the busted/missing welds. With them wanted to do a superglue effect to it, i would consult else where. It's a manufacture defect and also neglegence too. I would pull some weight and have it done correctly. Why are they worried about cost? Tell them they need to fix it right!!! I would settle for anything less.

let me know
mike

Thats correct, the impala has an aluminum engine cradle. I haven't really heard about the impalas and the missing welds. The person with the busted/missing welds. With them wanted to do a superglue effect to it, i would consult else where. It's a manufacture defect and also neglegence too. I would pull some weight and have it done correctly. Why are they worried about cost? Tell them they need to fix it right!!! I would settle for anything less.

let me know
mike

I would think the time to do a welding fix would be worthwhile, if such a thing as glue were used and failed causing the death of someone, that would result in a BIG lawsuit against GM which they Really don't need givin the state of the company lately.

I would think the time to do a welding fix would be worthwhile, if such a thing as glue were used and failed causing the death of someone, that would result in a BIG lawsuit against GM which they Really don't need givin the state of the company lately.

The service mechanic told me this shop has performed this super-glue type lock kit service over the sub frame welds 5 times and has not heard back from the Impala owners who's vehicles received the service.
I hope that is good news! Meaning the faulty sub frame welds, which weren't rewelded properly didn't finally snap free and cause control loss.
If you hear of any Impala or Monte Carlo involved in an accident, refer them to this posting.

The service mechanic told me this shop has performed this super-glue type lock kit service over the sub frame welds 5 times and has not heard back from the Impala owners who's vehicles received the service.
I hope that is good news! Meaning the faulty sub frame welds, which weren't rewelded properly didn't finally snap free and cause control loss.
If you hear of any Impala or Monte Carlo involved in an accident, refer them to this posting.

GM customer service rep Maria Ruiz 866 942 4368 ext. 45422 lied on the report of the defective sub frame welds, when she stated the service manager of Barlow Chevrolet {NJ} claimed it was not a manufacturer defect.
After hearing that from Mrs. Lopez, I quectioned the service manager, who claimed he never said it was not a manufacturer defect.
GM customer service reps. at the 866 942 4368 number lie to prevent cost assistance for missing or defective sub frame welds.
Who wants to buy a vehicle from a manufacturer who will lie to profit from safety related manufacturers defects?

GM customer service rep Maria Ruiz 866 942 4368 ext. 45422 lied on the report of the defective sub frame welds, when she stated the service manager of Barlow Chevrolet {NJ} claimed it was not a manufacturer defect.
After hearing that from Mrs. Lopez, I quectioned the service manager, who claimed he never said it was not a manufacturer defect.
GM customer service reps. at the 866 942 4368 number lie to prevent cost assistance for missing or defective sub frame welds.
Who wants to buy a vehicle from a manufacturer who will lie to profit from safety related manufacturers defects?


With all the cars GM puts out, you assume so quickly that every Customer Service Rep is going to know Every flaw with Every vehicle? She could have been lieing, but she could have just as easily been misinformed or not informed at all.

With all the cars GM puts out, you assume so quickly that every Customer Service Rep is going to know Every flaw with Every vehicle? She could have been lieing, but she could have just as easily been misinformed or not informed at all.

In this case the service manager didn't say the welds were not a manufacturer defect, the GM customer service rep at the toll free number lied by reporting the repair manager said it was not a manufacturer defect.
I am stuck with an Impala with missing/defective sub frame welds, a common problem on Monte Carlos and Impala's.
I feel unsafe, Poorly built car!
GM Customer Service Lied.
AVOID GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCTS
AVOID CHEVROLET
they lied to avoid partial costs of repair of missing and defective sub frame welding.

In this case the service manager didn't say the welds were not a manufacturer defect, the GM customer service rep at the toll free number lied by reporting the repair manager said it was not a manufacturer defect.
I am stuck with an Impala with missing/defective sub frame welds, a common problem on Monte Carlos and Impala's.
I feel unsafe, Poorly built car!
GM Customer Service Lied.
AVOID GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCTS
AVOID CHEVROLET
they lied to avoid partial costs of repair of missing and defective sub frame welding.

These Forums are more for helping people with cars they have, not ranting on how you hate a company. There are plenty of other forums to voice that opinion at.

If your car fails and you die, be sure to have your family sue GM, or if it bothers you THAT much, go trade your car in for a Non-GM product.

These Forums are more for helping people with cars they have, not ranting on how you hate a company. There are plenty of other forums to voice that opinion at.

If your car fails and you die, be sure to have your family sue GM, or if it bothers you THAT much, go trade your car in for a Non-GM product.

I post about my Impala sub frame weld defects to alert other Impala owners with similar Noise problems while turning their steering wheel.
As I've previously stated, it is frequently misdiagnosed {to GM profit} as intermittent steering shaft problems{they have replaced tens of thousands of those}.
If you want to play mommy over everyone who posts, I cant help that, but try following your own advice {post to help car problems only}

I post about my Impala sub frame weld defects to alert other Impala owners with similar Noise problems while turning their steering wheel.
As I've previously stated, it is frequently misdiagnosed {to GM profit} as intermittent steering shaft problems{they have replaced tens of thousands of those}.
If you want to play mommy over everyone who posts, I cant help that, but try following your own advice {post to help car problems only}

I try to be helpful in these forums, If you hadn't posted in every steering related thread, in all caps no less about the sub-frame welds, Then making two threads saying the same thing, I wouldn't even have posted anything, useful information is useful information.

It was quickly covered, some ISS may be mis-diagnosed. The glue thing I have to see to believe myself, I can't see how glue is cheaper than making use of welders the shops already have. Labor time would be nearly the same.

And the (to GM profit) I hope thats not implying that it would be cheaper to replace the ISS over making a few welds.

Let's all remeber that to avoid GM and Chevy products is poor Daves opinion. I myself have owned two Impalas and know many others who have owned them and also frequent forums for Impalas and have yet to hear of "poor and missing welds" on any GM products from anyone other than poor Dave. We all feel sorry for you but in my opinion you are trying to sabotage a good product and probably drive a Ford. You've never owned a Chevy, have you? Go bad mouth Chevys on your own forum, Ford Boy. We're on to your ploys.

IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!

Let's all remeber that to avoid GM and Chevy products is poor Daves opinion. I myself have owned two Impalas and know many others who have owned them and also frequent forums for Impalas and have yet to hear of "poor and missing welds" on any GM products from anyone other than poor Dave. We all feel sorry for you but in my opinion you are trying to sabotage a good product and probably drive a Ford. You've never owned a Chevy, have you? Go bad mouth Chevys on your own forum, Ford Boy. We're on to your ploys.

IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!

I OWN A 2001 CHEVROLET IMPALA WITH DEFECTIVE SUB FRAME WELDING.
THE DEFECTIVE SUB FRAME WELDING ON THE 2001 CHEVY IMPALA CAUSES FLEXING AT THE POOR WELDS WHICH RESULTS IN LOUD SNAPPING NOISES WHEN TURNING THE STEERING WHEEL AT VERY LOW SPEED AND WHILE NOT MOVING AT ALL.
You would think an american car manufacturer would want to repair this manufacturer defect. Any car maker should not allow defective welding to exist. Same with that major problem Chevrolet Impala's have with the intermediate steering shaft. Wouldn't it be right to have all defective steering shafts replaced? General Motors should offer to correct the sub frame welding and steering shaft defects.

...but they will try a super glue type fix on the welds to reduce their cost.


By your own words, you say a super glue "type" of fix. This does not imply that they actually use a glue. It could very easily mean that they are going to use a different type of metal alloy or a different weld rod or something of the sort to try to repair the weld joints that already exist. It would almost be the same as "reflow" in soldering electronics. They may try this as opposed to inserting a specially designed and expensively machined bracket that would most likely be overkill.

You may have been upset with the situation while they were explaining the problem to you and not taken the time to fully understand what they meant. Or you could have understood completely and known that they weren't going to use glue, but used to your advantage on this forum what the mechanic said. Being vague is a great way to incite misunderstanding and cause a "snowball effect" where a small misunderstanding contributes logarithmically to greater misunderstanding based on assumptions.

Either way, I'm sure that GM will not send you on your merry little way without knowing you are safe.

Good luck with a Kia or a Dodge.

By your own words, you say a super glue "type" of fix. This does not imply that they actually use a glue. It could very easily mean that they are going to use a different type of metal alloy or a different weld rod or something of the sort to try to repair the weld joints that already exist. It would almost be the same as "reflow" in soldering electronics. They may try this as opposed to inserting a specially designed and expensively machined bracket that would most likely be overkill.

You may have been upset with the situation while they were explaining the problem to you and not taken the time to fully understand what they meant. Or you could have understood completely and known that they weren't going to use glue, but used to your advantage on this forum what the mechanic said. Being vague is a great way to incite misunderstanding and cause a "snowball effect" where a small misunderstanding contributes logarithmically to greater misunderstanding based on assumptions.

Either way, I'm sure that GM will not send you on your merry little way without knowing you are safe.

Good luck with a Kia or a Dodge.
GM Has "sent me on my way" without repairing their defective welding!
I wish they would take some responsibility with their manufacturing and engieneering problems with regards to public safety. SERVICE BULLETIN #02-08-61-001.

Good luck with a Kia or a Dodge.


I'm glad i'm not alone with my thoughts.

I put this in the other thread about the welds. A few years back, GM replaced my 2000LS intermediate shaft and the cradle that was missing welds with no questions asked.

I put this in the other thread about the welds. A few years back, GM replaced my 2000LS intermediate shaft and the cradle that was missing welds with no questions asked.

We all must ask why General Motors and Chevrolet would allow their piece of shit Impala to roll of their lines while missing welding.
Too bad for Chevrolet, they will never improve their reputation of low quality workmanship and poorly trained customer service.
Too bad for all the Impala lovers in this forum who are against freedom of speach, you can kiss my ass.

We all must ask why General Motors and Chevrolet would allow their piece of shit Impala to roll of their lines while missing welding.
Too bad for Chevrolet, they will never improve their reputation of low quality workmanship and poorly trained customer service.
Too bad for all the Impala lovers in this forum who are against freedom of speach, you can kiss my ass.

I stated a fact. You're the one that's all pussy hurt. STFU and buy an import!

MY 2001 IMPALA HAS A LOUD BANGING, CRACKING NOISE FROM THE FRONT WHEN TURNING THE STEERING WHEEL AT NO SPEED OR VERY SLOW SPEED.
I was told today by chevy service the problem is defective / missing sub frame welds.
The defective welding causes the frame to flex, metal to metal.
Sometimes they replace the entire frame, but they will try a super glue type fix on the welds to reduce their cost.

They will try to have the customer pay for the defective/ missing welds.
This problem is very profitable for GM as it is frequently mis diagnosed as steering rack replacement, steering shaft replacement, mount replacement, steering shaft lube, etc...etc...
I wonder if the many crashes of police impala vehicles are related to the missing defective welds?

Sorry, couldn't let this one go...
The welds on W body sub frames DO NOT constitute a safety problem, it is a noise concern only. Per GM bulletin #02-08-61-001A, SOME early '01 Impalas had some welds omitted. The bulletin outlines how to install penetrating threadlocker as part of a noise correction kit to the frame to eliminate the noise you have. We have done many of these at the dealer I work at, but all on older Impalas. Newer Imps don't have a problem with the frame, but have other noises with other causes. After reading many posts on this forum, I just want to remind everyone to take your car to THE DEALER. No one has access to the info your dealer does. All the wasted time and money you spend at Joe's garage could be avoided by checking with the dealer. I have worked in this industry for 23 years. Every make and model has problems, not just GM, Ford, Etc. I could give you a grocery list of problems with MAzda, Dodge, Jeep, all of which we sell. Gm has a good warranty and stands behind it's product. Most manufacterers won't offer assistance on a 5 year old car with high mileage. Gm usually requires partial payment on repairs out of warranty. After all, you have gotten use out of the vehicle up until the time you had a problem, right? Why do you think the repair should be free?

Chris

The welds on W body sub frames DO NOT constitute a safety problem, it is a noise concern only.

Thanks, Chris, you beat me to it. I also am a GM tech. I have been working at various GM dealers since 1984, and at the same Chevy dealer since 1992.

Let's get something straight: The sub frame weld issue is not, and never was, a safety issue. The sub frame consists of a square frame of extruded aluminum. The frame bolts to the underside of the body, and supports the engine, transaxle, steering rack, and the lower suspension components. What is happening with the frame is that when it flexes under normal suspension/steering loads, certain individual components in the assembly are made to scrape against each other very slightly. The movement is slight, but is enough to cause a "pop" noise. The entire assembly, I want to emphasize, IS solidly welded, but it is designed to flex. If it did not flex somewhat, it would break.

What GM has done is to incorporate a few extra welds in the assembly in newer models to add rigidity. This is not to prevent the assembly from failing, but to prevent the noise condition. You (Davenewjersey) might have contempt for large corporations like GM (I bet you voted for Kerry, too - LOSER!), but the folks at GM are not stupid: If they were having problems with the sub frames coming apart, you bet your ass there would be a recall - and fast.

With respect to the "superglue" fix...Dave, I hope you never come to my dealership, because as soon as you start talking bullshit like you are here you'll be out on the street. You make it sound like GM is having us "glue" the frames together. Come on, Dave.

The fix involves a product called Loctite. It is an anaerobic sealer (that means it cures in the absence of air). The product is applied to the joints in the sub frame, between the welds. When it cures, it prevents the slight movement that causes the noise. And it works very well, if done properly.

Finally, the GM W-body (including the Lumina and Impala, and others), is one of the finest, most reliable cars that GM, or anyone else, has ever built. I have owned a '93 Lumina, a '95 Lumina, and last month I took delivery on an '05 Impala SS (my dream car.) I work on Chevrolet cars and trucks every day. If the Impala were such a "piece of shit" do you think I would have bought one?

Thanks, Chris, you beat me to it. I also am a GM tech. I have been working at various GM dealers since 1984, and at the same Chevy dealer since 1992.

Let's get something straight: The sub frame weld issue is not, and never was, a safety issue. The sub frame consists of a square frame of extruded aluminum. The frame bolts to the underside of the body, and supports the engine, transaxle, steering rack, and the lower suspension components. What is happening with the frame is that when it flexes under normal suspension/steering loads, certain individual components in the assembly are made to scrape against each other very slightly. The movement is slight, but is enough to cause a "pop" noise. The entire assembly, I want to emphasize, IS solidly welded, but it is designed to flex. If it did not flex somewhat, it would break.

What GM has done is to incorporate a few extra welds in the assembly in newer models to add rigidity. This is not to prevent the assembly from failing, but to prevent the noise condition. You (Davenewjersey) might have contempt for large corporations like GM (I bet you voted for Kerry, too - LOSER!), but the folks at GM are not stupid: If they were having problems with the sub frames coming apart, you bet your ass there would be a recall - and fast.

With respect to the "superglue" fix...Dave, I hope you never come to my dealership, because as soon as you start talking bullshit like you are here you'll be out on the street. You make it sound like GM is having us "glue" the frames together. Come on, Dave.

The fix involves a product called Loctite. It is an anaerobic sealer (that means it cures in the absence of air). The product is applied to the joints in the sub frame, between the welds. When it cures, it prevents the slight movement that causes the noise. And it works very well, if done properly.

Finally, the GM W-body (including the Lumina and Impala, and others), is one of the finest, most reliable cars that GM, or anyone else, has ever built. I have owned a '93 Lumina, a '95 Lumina, and last month I took delivery on an '05 Impala SS (my dream car.) I work on Chevrolet cars and trucks every day. If the Impala were such a "piece of shit" do you think I would have bought one?

You guys are my hero :)

On the topic of parts, either of you techs happen to know what a new engine mount runs. Specifically speaking the on on the top side of the engine, left side if your looking at the engine bay. The metal (casting looking part?) cracked.

Hi, I am new to this forum but very interested in receiving a comment from one or both of the GM technicians. I have a 2004 Impala that we purchased new. It has 58,000 miles and is driven by 2 mature adults. The car has been very good to us. However we now have a light metallic clicking noise in the steering. It can be detected when the car is idling and the wheel turned lock to lock. The car is covered by an extended waranty so we took it to our local Chevrolet dealer. Here is the exact description of the problem per the dealership (including the upper case font)... 58152 ROAD TESTED AND VERIFIED THE NOISE, I THEN RETURNED AND RAISED FOUND THAT THE NOISE WAS FROM THE ENGINE CRADLE ASSEMBLY WERE (sic) THE STEERING GEAR ATTACHES TO THE CRADLE THE MOUNTS ARE FLEXING AND MAKING THE NOISE WOULD NEED TO HAVE THE CRADLE ASSEMBLY REPLACED TO ELIMINATE THE NOISE CUSTOMER DECLINED REPAIRS.

The service rep informed me that the warranty (GMPP Majorgaurd) would not cover the repair since the fault is in a body part and not part of the mechanical systems of the car. The repair cost to us was quoted at $1995.00. Now I see from this forum that there may be a GM authorized repair using loctite on some frame components. I do not believe that the engine cradle (wierd name for a sub-frame) is defective. We would like to keep this car for an extended period of time. Can anyone elaborate on the loctite repair? Also, I own a hobby lift for my Corvette and I plan to put the Impala on the lift to investigate for myself. I will focus on the frame to steering gear mounts. I want to resolve this issue. It's been a very good car. Yes the front rotors are warped but I can fix that, no sweat. Also I worked for a Fortune 500 Company for over 22 years, I agree, if this were a true safety concern, these ars would be under a recall.

Cj

There was a problem with early intermediate steering shafts making noise, but I think GM put a new design in around 2003. Lubing the shaft fixed it, you might check on that.
Also check the cradle bolts for proper torque. These cars are very sensitive to the cradle bolt torque. I'm pretty sure it's 122 ft.lbs for the 2 rear bolts, and 118 for the two front ones, but verify that with your dealer.
There is also a TSB out for installing shims in the cradle mounts but I don't think it applied to the 2004.