Windstar 98 I feel like throwing

my hands into the air and give up. I ve' been nickleing and diming my trouble codes for 6 months and its not getting better, please help. I have codes P0171 and P0302. It's a 98', 3.8 122,000 miles. The mis-fire is at excelleration when hot and at idle, (Or it seems), in the past it was intermitent but today it was more pronounced. When my P302 code is thrown it seems like it comes on ever 2 times the P0171 code lumintes. I think my van is playing some serious mind games. Any how, I havent done any major repaires. Just the normal plugs and wires,
filters, injector cleaners. If I had a bad injector would this cause a misfire? Whats the part list like for cleaning them or replacing them or just #2 etc. I guess maybe i've convinced myself that its a bad injector unless someone would, please, help me see other avenues. Thank you, Desperatly Seeking Winstar Help...VM

hello vmvatbaby,

Don't get discouraged. Calm down. go back to the search box for this forum an type in your codes. Hit the "search" button . . and then . . . go to the fridge and get a beverage, come back and sit a spell and read ALL ABOUT your problem, and what folks have done to fix it. Most likely problem is clogged EGR ports, but, you tell us what you think after you've perused the forum, and have formulated your best diagnosis. Good luck.

Karl.

A bad injector could certainly cause the misfire. Of course so could a lot of things. If you are convinced it is the injector they can be removed. cleaned/overhauled, replaced or swapped with another cylinder to see if the misfire follows the injector. It could even be the wiring to the injectors.

A misfire can also be caused by partially clogged EGR ports but I am not familiar with the setup of the 98.

Your 171 could be related to the misfire especially if it is a lack of fuel issue.

Thank you guys for your feedback. Will I need to take of my intake to get to the injectors? Or to examine the egr ports? Im going to see if I can by a stethescope today to listen to my van running. What would the parts list look like for taking this all apart. Would the average joe like myself be able to complete a project like this is a few hours or even a half of a day? Thanks again guys/gals.. VM

PS after searching the forum I found a couple of things to try before tearing down the intake/plenum etc.. I would still like to know answers to above if possible...I m going to inspect the coil pack. It has not been making sense that it would be this unless there was a crack underneath near the #2 port. I will research somem ore to find possibly more inspection things first. Suggestions are still welcome..VM

As CoachKarl and DRW1000 said...check and clean EGR ports. I just cleaned mine on a 98 3.8L and it runs much better and gas mileage improved 3 mpg. At 122k, your ports on cyls 5 and 6 are probably totally clogged, so 1-4 get all the exhaust gases. I'm a novice mechanic and was scared of taking the black plastic air plenum and fuel rail off but it really wasn't that bad. I did have to buy a torque wrench- Harbor Freight had one that works good for $12. Also, if you take the fuel rail completely off (you don't have to- you can fold it up and remove injectors), you'll need a scissors fuel line uncoupler - $6 at auto parts store. Now, I did need uncoupler for the fuel filter - 2 feet from fuel tank underneath.
Also, I damaged an o ring on one fuel injector removing it and had to replace it. There are 12 o rings - 1 top and 1 bottom of each injector. Where the injector inserts into the fuel rail looked factory fresh on mine. In hindsight, I didn't have to remove the injectors from the fuel rail - could have just sprayed carb cleaner on the exposed squirt end and it's "hat".

Check your injectors by placing a tube (1/4", 1/2", whatever) on the injector and your ear. Steady ticking indicates it's working - compare sounds against the others.

Big tip - clean the top of the manifold through the air plenum gaps and around the injectors with a shopvac before removal. As soon as you remove the plenum, put a towel over it to keep crap from falling in.

Don't know if I can add much to Dougand3 except that you should also ensure that you have any new gaskets that will be required as well as tools/solvents to remove the old ones.

Operation Coil Pack - completed! I think it was a success. It doesn't mis-fire. I replaced this maily to eliminate all ignition faulty possibilities. The only code its throwing now is p0171. Drivability - the best way to describe it is a pulsation in low idle - hot. During this pulsating idle it seems the mis-fire I once had is gone. I guess it's on to Operation EGR ports :( I think the injectors are fine I listened to them all they are all ticking...#2 however seems a little weaker when the idle drops and goes into that pulsating idle. Is this what my shopping list should look like: (Windstar '98 3.8 122000ml) My goal is to clean egr ports and fuel injectors and look for excessive oil deposits and remove/clean
- For this year and model do I need to get throttle body gasket , according to haynes it may not be necessary to take this off. Just accel cable. ??
- 1 intake plenum gasket
- 12 fuel injector rings or 6 sets
- Torque rachet/wrench
What kind of solvents should I get
How do I clean the egr ports and where are they?
Do I need to take the lower intake off too, gee I hope not...lol......VM

My next problem nobody seems to carry the plenum gaskets, I've done search after search....they say there are no parts for my vehicle.. o rings and gaskets...help..Lost VM
PS I finally found the gasket..part # MS95934 Auto Zone (Upper)
No luck with o rings

The injector o rings were Fel-Pro ES70599. 4 in a pack for ~$2.50 at Advance Auto. I didn't need any other gaskets/seals. The plenum has permanent rubber seals that marry up with each intake. The throttle Body also has a permanent rubber seal.

The acc cable/cruise cable bracket unbolts-2 or 4 bolts...just lay it off to the side-toward the firewall-don't lose the big spring.

I used carb cleaner (mostly toluene) on the aluminum intake. Used wd-40 on the rubber gaskets and area around.

The EGR ports are easily visible at the top of the aluminum intake in the outer port....~ 1/3 inch diam. I used a pick/small screwdriver with a shopvac sucking to get the carbon as I dislodged it.

Thank you. Looks like ill begin on Friday I'll let you all know how i did. Thanks...VM

When you get the plenum off, here is what it looks like...

http://home.comcast.net/~dougand3/Auto/intake3.JPG

The verdict is in... I took off plenum and cleaned intake top/ports, egr ports and tips of injectors. The injectors looked fine. The egr ports were all clogged except #2 (a little ironic), there was some wet oil/fuel on the <b>intake<b> ports for #2 and #3 maybe where I was running lean. (Bank 1) this could have been leaking air, and normal carbon on the rest of the ports. There was a change in the way van runs but once it gets hot it still is mis firing #2. I can drive it about 20 miles and not notice a thing. After I got it all back together I had the van running for 20 minutes prior to driving it. I drove 6 miles to a store left it running while I was inside came out 15 minutes later to find it was idling irratic and missing. I replaced new rubber seals for the plenum to intake and i finally bought a motorcraft pcv and replaced that. During the tear down I cleaned everything I could...there was left over blow by oil in the air cleaner (from pior generic pcv issues). I just can't seem to get my finger on it. I guess the brighter side to this is I didn't make it worse by tearing it down, it did help the overall smoothness of the idle. What do you think guys/gals? VM

Ps. It was nice doing a project that I didn't need 30 different sized sockets...:) 5/16 I used for 98 percent of the tear down!intake

Went to AZ to have codes pulled again the only code showing is P0171, again! I was suprised to find that my mis-fire didnt show up. What about the evap system, canister etc, would this be an issue to investigate? I did have p1450 come up twice in past 6 months (or last 6500 miles). Replaced gas cap the first time because the generic cap i bought wasnt letting any air excap,e wasnt venting, put old cap back on. This was a in Janurary. Then recently it came back up and i did think anything of it having 2 other codes with it so i was focused n those, (P171 and p302). P1450 is unable to bleed up fuel tank vaccum - Auxillery emissions control. (again my drivability issue is when its hot the engine idle pulsates at low idle and at times thru excelleration it feels like its misfiring still (there is no code supporting this).

Try cleaning the MAF sensor with aerosol electronic cleaner. It's in the "accordian" housing between the air filter and throttle body. Be careful with it-the wires are delicate. My Escort MAFs was black and hairy-after cleaning, then clearing codes, it ran great.

what do you mean the wires are delicate? Is there a way to take the Sensor apart? I know when I had the air duct off I had the MAF seperated from inside to clean the oil/gas brown crap that was inside and around the air temp sensor. The way the MAF was set up it doesn't sit on the inside wall so it will not catch any liquid, horray for ford for a nice design. I will take your advice dougand3 and get some elec. cleaner, I can use it on my computer keyboard too:). quick question .... Wouldn't I be throwing a Lean Bank 2 Code If it were the MAF? Having problems since December I always throw the Bank 1. Thank you, VM

I would think you would get both banks lean if it was a failure common to both banks. It may be that one O2 sensor is a bit more sensitive. Have you thought about swapping sensors from bank to bank to see if the problem follows the sensor or stays with the bank?

I think the electrical cleaner is a spirit based cleaner not just a can of air so it would not be useful for your keyboard.

Would a O2 cause drivability problems like i've decribed? I ll have to try swapping out sensors....upstream? closest to head? Do you have a name for the spray/elec. cleaner? VM

I would think you would get both banks lean if it was a failure common to both banks. It may be that one O2 sensor is a bit more sensitive. Have you thought about swapping sensors from bank to bank to see if the problem follows the sensor or stays with the bank?

I think the electrical cleaner is a spirit based cleaner not just a can of air so it would not be useful for your keyboard.

I'd swap all four sensors; bank 1 >< bank 2. Look for corrosion on the elect connectors.

I've noticed cleaners available in Costco and Sams Club. I bought mine at RadioShack, "Precision Electronics Cleaner".

where are all the sensors at? I know there are 4 but I only see 2. 1 in front just below enjine on exaust and the other is right at the cat. where else could air be getting in on the other side of the air plenum to set off a bank 1 lean? ...VM

Cleaning the MAF....I have a couple of pictures of my MAF.....that shows the hole that you want to spray the cleaner into.....and the hole on the back side that you want the fluid to flow out. I clean mine by holding the MAF assembly with the screen (air filter side) toward me.....and the throttle body (non-screen side) away from me. Also with the plastic bar sloping so that the hole that you spray into is higher than the hole on the back side. This way....you spray into the hole....and the fluid flushed out any dirt.

Upstream oxygen sensor for the rear bank, you can only see it from under the car.....and then, you may need a flashlight to see it. It is located in the PIPE just below the exhaust manifold. The one that goes into the back of the catalytic converter....is the downstream sensor. I would swap ONLY the upstream sensors as they are the ones that would give you a lean code. The downstream sensors are to monitor catalyst efficiency.

The main point that I would not swap the rear ones at this point.....is...that when I was changing my catalytic converter assembly.......and went to remove the oxygen sensor from the back of the converter.....the ring that the oxygen sensor screws into....broke right out of the converter with very little force applied. Was not a major deal....as I was changing the converters....but would not be a good thing for someone who was not planning to change the converters.
If you look in my pictures.....I have a picture posted of the new and old conveter assembly side by side......and you will be able to see all the oxygen sensor locations.

Pictures at http://community.webshots.com/album/201931518cScpNK

Also....If you DO end up finding that your problem is an oxygen sensor. You will want to replace BOTH of the upstream sensors. This way they will both have the same switching speeds. Oxygen sensors tend to switch slower as they get older.
I would also recommend that you use only Motorcraft brand of oxygen sensor. You can get the Motorcraft brand for a reasonable price at www.rockauto.com

Also, put a little anti-seize on the threads (only the threads) of the sensors......new ones have it already on the threads, but your old ones will need it when you swap them. A little PB-Blaster onto the threads (only the threads) of your sensors about an hour before you take them out will help to free them up for easier removal.

Than you I will try this hopefully this week... Would a bad sensor cause some drivability issues like descriped above?

Oxygen sensors can certainly cause driveability issues ... so can a thousand other things.

I've lost track, what are the current codes and what are the current symptoms?

I just had my intake cleaned out on my 98 3.8l. it was so clogged that basically everything was going through one port and it was burning up the spark plug.

Did you change your spark plugs yet? It may also be a good thing to change your wires if they haven't been done.