ABS Revisited

Well my Windstar is running great. I only have one annoyance left.

My ABS light is on and It has not activated since the light came on. Here are some points:

-Changed front pads and (rear shoes should be okay)
-Bled the brakes
-Tried to remove brake resevoir but it did not easily come off so I was afraid to force it. I was planning to remove the fluid from here rather than force it through the system.
-Checked two fuses (relays) in front fuse centre
-Checked fuse in vehicle
Removed rear sensors from drums and wiped clean (could not find my brake clean).
-Disconnected and reconnected wiring harness to ABS module.
-Checked tire pressure.

My ABS light is on from the moment my car starts. It does not require a short drive to turn it on. I think this indicates that the sensors themselves are not the trouble but I am not sure.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I can live without the ABS but the stubborness in me keeps looking at the light.

Thanks

Hello DRW,

My mechanic neighbor friend talked me into replacing ALL the brake fluid in the system. I pulled the plastic resevoir off, dumped it in the oil bucket. Then washed & dried it till it looked like new. Plopped it back on the Master cyl, and pumped all the old fluid out of the lines. He swore it would save my ABS.

I've also taken to searching all automotive forums looking for answers. There's got to be an "automotive electrical nightmare" site out there somewhere. Try plugging ABS FORD PROBLEM into google and see what that digs up.

And no, your'e persistance is not a fault in my book. What you have is patients, self control & curiosity. You'd make a good computer programmer!

Karl.

Thanks for the response Coach,

Did replacing the fluid fix your ABS or was this a preventative maintenance move?

How did you remove the resevoir? Did you just pull up?

I seem to think I have a mechanical problem and not electrical.

Computer Programmer eh?....lol I am actually an Electrical Engineer so it expalins my persistance I imagine.

Have you had a scanner that is capable of reading the ABS system? This will narrow down the problem and let you keep more of your hair. Usually if the light stays on from start up, it is either the control module or a wire that is broken or shorted. The scanner will point you to an area. Good luck.

It was preventative maintenance.

You just pull up on the resevoir. Make sure it's completely dry before re-installing.

Yeah, system loving fools aren't we?

Coach,

Is it an o-ring that seals the resevoir to the "other part"?

Way2old,

No My scanner is just for PCM codes. You did answer a good question though. My light is on from start up.

There are "C" codes for the wheel sensor failure codes....they are read at the same connector as the OBDII codes. A code reader that can read "C" codes should be able to read them.....I have not tried it myself....but there are about 13 codes just for the wheel sensors...that will tell you specifically what wheel sensor.....and the problem.
The "C" codes cover a bunch of other brake system failures as well. I do NOT know if the "C" codes will light up the CEL.....
Seems they very throughly cover the ABS system....from looking at the list on Aldatadiy.

So...I think it would be very much worth your while to get the "C" codes read.....otherwise...it is a guessing game.

Brake fluid. I flushed my brake fluid last year as a preventative maintenance measure. The main place for contamination (as long as you keep the master cylinder cap on...and use ONLY fresh fluid from a NEW SEALED bottle) is at the wheels.

I used a "Mighty Vac" brand hand pump to bleed the fluid through the lines at each wheel....starting at the Back Passenger side....to Back Driver side, to Front Passenger side....to Front Driver side. This is starting from the longest run......to the shortest run.

I used Motorcraft brand of brake fluid as it has a much higher dry boil point than DOT3 / DOT4 minimum requirements. And a much higher dry boil point than anything I could find at the autoparts stores...... 550 degrees F. You can match or better that at a racing supply house......but not by much.

Personally....I think doing that on a older vehicle is a good idea....and perhaps....bleeding a small amount at each wheel...say every year or every other year.

Brake pad replacement procedures that I have read....seem to tell you to remove 1/2 of the fluid from the master cylinder....then push the caliper piston in....forcing the fluid up into the master cylinder. Much easier.....much faster....but.....at risk of putting crud into the ABS unit.....

I prefer to hook up my "Mighty Vac" brake bleeder pump to the bleeder screw..... Pump up some vaccum (my pump has a gauge) and open the screw until some fluid comes out. Then.....keeping vaccum on the vac gauge.....I slowly push the piston in as directed in the instructions ( "C" clamp with wood block). This way....the worst fluid in the system (heat stressed, and contaminated) is pulled out....and disposed of.

I always believed that when brakes were done....that the brakes were bled....but if they follow the instructions.....that is NOT true.
I always had my brake work done for me (I have been very lucky...and brake linings lasted a long time).....but when I bled my brakes myself....for the first time last spring....I pulled 3 bottles of coffee colored fluid out at each wheel....nasty stuff....it was.

Thanks for the info Wiswind. I know I should have the brake codes read but I want to exhaust other possibilities first.

I have access to a Ford manual and it mentions something about C111 (the ABS control module connector) being under the dirver's seat. I though this odd since I though it was near the brake booster. I looked under my seat and did not see it. I wonder if it is under the van. Has anyone heard of a part of the ABS system under the seat?

I will have to re-check the manual tomorrow.

Its under the seat, under the floor pan.

Its under the seat, under the floor pan.

Okay really dumb follow up here-

This means outside the van.......correct???

Thanks 12ounce.

Yep, underneath where all the brake lines are grouped ... fairly close to the in-line gasoline filter.

If you have to remove this thing ... get ready to bust some knuckles. And "flare nut" tube wrenches are a must.

I have a '99 3.8L and had my ABS error codes read today.

C1185 Power Relay Output Circuit Failure
C1198 LF Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1210 RF Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1214 RF Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1242 LR Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1246 RR Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1250 LR Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1254 RR Isolation Valve Circuit Failure

I think this set of ABS failures set off these traction failures

C1404 RF Traction Control Valve Circuit Failures
C1410 LF Traction Control Valve Circuit Failures

The mechanic who read these was too busy to actually diagnose the issues ($$$).

Does anyone have any ideas what this all might mean?

Steve

Staggering!

Welcome Steve O,

My best guess is . . . . that the gizmo with all the brake tubes that DRW is now inspection under the drivers seat of his van, is the source of your your problem too. I've been replacing all the brake fluid in the system when I do a brake job, (at the insistance of my annoying Porsche/Audi/VW mechanic neighbor), and have had no problems. Flush it all out PROUFUSELY. Clear the codes. Let us know how it turns out. Pour the old brake fluid in with your waste oil.

Karl

To have so many codes, I wonder if your module is not disconnected ....or harness damaged.... have you run over a bunch of road debris recently?

I have had this problem for about a year. Put little black stickers over the light to keep my sanity.

In that time I have tried a lot of the easier suggestions of past threads like pull and clean each sensor and top off the fluid, etc.

I think my next step is bleed and flush the brake fluid. I think I have replaced every fluid in this '99. Side Note: The power steering fluid was a first for me with any vehicle that I have ever owned, and it needed it.

Last summer I had a racoon or other varment chew through two spark plug wires in the north woods of Wisconsin, maybe he did more damage.

I will get under there and look this week, while I ponder the time needed for a trans cooler install. to double check, the flow goes through the top of the radiator cooler and out the bottom?


Right now I am knee deep in a lower intake manifold gasket for a 1998 3.1L GM product. Either I know how to pick the winners or every manufactuer needs to funnel money backing to the repair stream by designing problems the average person won't attempt. (anyone remember TSB 3-16)

Thanks for the responses.
Steve

In an effort to try and correct my ABS system I plan to do the following this weekend:

1) Check the voltages at the under vehicle ABS module (Didn’t know it existed until last week).
2) Clean each wheel sensor – again
3) Bleed the brakes.

I plan to use the following method for bleeding.
1) 1) Empty reservoir and fill with new fluid.
2) Start at RR and bleed towards front.
3) In an attempt to empty the brake cylinders I was planning on pinching the brake lines at each wheel so that when I use my vacuum pump it will empty the fluid from the cylinders. (My hesitation is that it will draw the shoes in and the pads out. Will this cause me any problems? When I pump my brakes afterwards I will need to refill the reservoir.

Does anyone see any major flaws in my plan? Approximately how much fluid should I plan on? I was planning on purchasing 2 – 750 ml bottles.

Please do not pinch the brake lines, you do not want to get inner wall separation. So what if the wheel pistons/calipers collapse a bit? .... will not hurt a thing. (BTW, these wheel components are designed to withstand a pretty high vacuum without leaking air into the system ... this allows manufacturers to use vacuum to purge air from the system just before filling with fluid... by evacuating the air first, the overall fill time is greatly reduced ... and no bleeding is required.)

Just make sure to stroke the brake pedal a couple of times before driving away.

Thanks for the advice 12ounce. If I do not pinch the brake lines (which I won't now that you have recoomended against it) does this mean that the fluid in the claipers/brake cylinders will not really get replaced since as I apply vacuum it will draw from the now unpinched line?

I'm not sure I understand your concern ... but let me take a stab ... Except for a small bit of mixing and tumbling, as you draw fresh fluid down from the reservoir it will pretty well push the old fluid out. I believe, with the 1.5 litre fresh fluid installed, there will no measurable trace of the old fluid left behind.

You can improve your chances by collapsing the calipers (bleed screw open) and sucking out the reservoir ... this lessens the volumn of old fluid before you start with the fresh. I personally would not bother with collapsing the calipers, ....but would muck out the reservoir. Maybe I would also pop the reservoir loose for additional cleaning. Maybe. Depends on sediment amount.

Thanks 12Ounce!!


As always your opinions and comments are appreciated

I used a quart plus a 12 oz can of DOT3 when my friend and I did mine. We did pop off the master cyl resevoir. We did not collapse the slave cylinders. We used the brake pedal pumping method till clean fluid ran out each bleed cock. My buddy went clockwise around the car starting at rear right wheel. I've never had any problem with brakes on this car. (95, 3.8L 157K mi)

Karl.

Thanks Coach

I've got the same codes as steve_o. Has anyone figured out the problem yet?

Steve-O, try this:
1. Since all the codes are for circuit faults, start with checking for power and ground at the ABS controller/module assembly. Yellow/Light Green (Y/LG) and Light Blue/Pink (LB/PK) must be B+ at all times. Red/Black (R/BK) must be B+ with the key on and Black ground wires must read 0.1v or less at all times.
2.If all OK, replace the ABS assembly

I have a '99 3.8L and had my ABS error codes read today.

C1185 Power Relay Output Circuit Failure
C1198 LF Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1210 RF Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1214 RF Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1242 LR Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1246 RR Dump Valve Circuit Failure
C1250 LR Isolation Valve Circuit Failure
C1254 RR Isolation Valve Circuit Failure

I think this set of ABS failures set off these traction failures

C1404 RF Traction Control Valve Circuit Failures
C1410 LF Traction Control Valve Circuit Failures

The mechanic who read these was too busy to actually diagnose the issues ($$$).

Does anyone have any ideas what this all might mean?

Steve

Steve, Did you get yours fixed? I have a 99 doing the same thing. codes 1185,1198,1194,1254,1246,1250,1242,1214,1210
Pulling my hair out looking at these wiring diagrams.

I am sorry to say that I have not done anything.

This van is not my daily mode of transportation so it has been easy to ignore.

I feel a little overwhelmed and am concerned about the cost.

What does a replacement ABS module cost?

I am sorry to say that I have not done anything.

This van is not my daily mode of transportation so it has been easy to ignore.

I feel a little overwhelmed and am concerned about the cost.

What does a replacement ABS module cost?


It is about $450 (part # XF2Z-2B373-BB) from fordparts.com

frostie did that fix yours?

frostie did that fix yours?


Like Steve_o, I have not had time yet to get it fixed. I bought the module off Ebay, but you need to go to a Ford dealer to have it installed since they must read the settings off the current controller and program your new one. I just found out that Alldata has a TSB for this problem, so will probably get hold of the TSB before I try anything else.

To get rid of an ABS code, I once replaced the ABS module on my '99. (Get the "flare nut" wrenches ready! ... and the knuckles!)

Not knowing about the reprogramming requirement, I just replaced the module and started driving. I was lucky, everything worked straight away ... and the code never recurred.

... think I paid about $380 from the dealer for the part... not real sure. This was for the control module only ... did not include the mechanical hydraulic valve body. This was probably year 2000 or 2001.

Could I get the tsb number and I will go to my dealer and get a copy.

12Ounce was it one code or many?

Oh boy! Wish I had kept the notes.

I think I remember only one code. The dealer helped me a great deal by supplying print-outs of a trouble shooting flow diagram for the particular ABS code that I had. Made the analysis "Mickey Mouse" ... just required a volt-ohmmeter.