Viper vs GT40

Man the Mach I's weren't that impressive at all. The Boss 302 was garbage as well and they were one of the most popular of the Boss. The Boss 429 was the car to compete with the Chevelle, GTO, Roadrunner, Cuda, etc.

but it will never have legendary status like the mustang
The Viper is a pretty new car when you compare it to a car thats been around for 40 years. Thats bullshit give it time, people will remember it as Dodge's badass V10 muscle car.

Rob do you have any pics of your Mustang btw?

we are talking about the Mustang. not Ford in general. They have sold more than anyone else because they have been big for years, selling their economy shitboxes.

and why would Ford want to invade the European market anyway

to make money, Ford are after as much money as possible, if they know a car isnt gonna do well, they wont bother sending it here, if they know it will do well, they send it over.

you obviously havent been back to youre native spain in a while.yes the old mustangs are consideredlegends, but i bet noone gives a fuck about new mustangs, because there are far better cars on offer nowadays. Vipers are also not too desirable, because they are not exceptional cars, and there is also better stuff on offer.Both the Mustang and the Viper are far from the best in their class, but the Viper is a better car than the Mustang,and it shows by what the magazines say. And in this case they are not biased, as both cars come from the same country.

I think Ford is one of the most popular car manufacturers in Britain, but I may be wrong. There are a lot though.

Pennzoil R are you just sad because the crap cheverolet use to make like the camaro and the trans am got chunked by chevy? If Ford can still make and sell crap to the public, then what does that make cheverolet vehicles that chevy has stopped making because the public would not buy enough of them i.e camaro and trans am? All three companies make good vehicles even Chevy, Pennzoil so I am not necessarily bashing chevy, I just felt I had to add that since you had to bash ford. We know that Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Pontiac motors can be made to make lots of power, just take nascar for example each motor is the manufacturers block(ford, chevy, dodge,..) and each block has a limit of 358 cubic inches. These motors make around 800 horsepower and can turn about 10,000 rpms, very impressive. The companies can make the motors with power if they wanted too. It is a lot of political bull crap to why they don't do it. I bet all the manufactures would love to be able to make production vehicles with over 800 horsepower but EPA and Government Regulations prevent such actions. And Pennzoil I will love the new corvette if they do make it with a camless engine, or electronically controlled valves. That would be a motor milestone and you would probably be able to change the way the hole motor acts by reprograming the valves, would be like being able to change a cam in a motor instantly. A lot of exciting things are happening with all the manufactures so to pin point one as the best would be illogical and unfair. We should be happy that our domestic vehicles are at the forefront of all the leading technology.

Considering Penzoil lives in UK I seriously doubt he gives a damn whether the Trans Am and Camaro are still alive and well so that comment is pretty much void.

Now the way I could POSSIBLY see it, a Mustang could very well be more wanted then a Viper in Europe. Why? Because everyone knows America is popular for their very powerful V8's. A V10 POSSIBLY could be considered nothing special, since there are other manufacturers in Europe such as Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lambo, etc that make engines like V12s and the like. I'm sure quite a few of the Europeans have that urge to try out a beefy V8 and see what all the fuss is about those engines.

Thats just one theory though. Another theory would be people would want a Viper as much or even more then a Mustang in Europe simply because they know its a very powerful American car. It will perform pretty decent on the track as well.

Could I be very much off and every European hates American cars? Of course I could, I've never talked to any Europeans face to face in my life.

We know that Ford, Chevy, Dodge, and Pontiac motors
The day Pontiac makes an engine please tell me. But as of right now every single motor you see under a Pontiac is a Chevy engine.


As for America taking the lead in technology comment, thats what I don't like about what they are doing. What the American engines have been typically about is simple design, loads of power. Not to mention big displacement. Thats the way I'd like to keep it but its obviously no going to happen like that.

Well if you want to get technical Pontiac made engines in the 60s and some of the 70s, they didn't always have a chevy engine. So I am telling you the "day" that Pontiac (maybe they don't make them today but they made their own engines just like oldsmobile and gm) made their own motors.

Take a closer look at the older Pontiacs say around a 69 or a 70 Pontiac or do some research they didn't come with a chevy motor they came with a PONTIAC say it with me again devil a PONTIAC made motor not chevy made.

Originally posted by DeViL

The day Pontiac makes an engine please tell me. But as of right now every single motor you see under a Pontiac is a Chevy engine.


Get your facts straight before you say something like every single motor you see under a Pontiac is a chevy engine.

Get in the biggest engine you can get!

it does not matter what the popular car magazines claim------because they are lobbied by car manufacturers (so you understand that----it means that they probably receive a little $$$$ for some of the articles) it can not be assumed that all their articles are written objectively-----you will hold that a Viper is a way better car than the 03 Cobra----and if you want to believe that then go ahead------but I will say-------being an 01 Cobra owner that spent $35k on his car-----plus about $23,000 in mods (including labor) whose car I believe is just ---- maybe just a tiny notch below a stock 03 Viper------and my friend that still puts my added expenses on my 01 Cobra-----about $25K less than a Viper------and the 03 Cobra is well based with the tech that it has-------and a few thousand dollars more-----and it can run with the 03 Viper------you argue that you would be adding aftermarket parts as opposed to the Stock Viper------but we are talking maybe only adding about $15-18thousand dollars in aftermarket parts-------I don't know bro------I think simple math says that wouold still make the 03 cobra----about $30K cheaper-------and almost evenly matched------The Kenny Brown aftermarket equipment for Cobras------is nothing to laugh at-----and is not overly expensive like some of the RIP OFF aftermarket packages that Viper has outhere-------and please don't bring up any Hennessy nonsense------his reputation is all but going down the toilet with all the claims Viper owners have made about his workmanship and end results!

69 or a 70 Pontiac....what car or engine are you talking about? Are you talking about the 455?

I know for a fact that pontiac made a 300, 350, and a 400. I am sure they made other motors too. I might not be right with the years of the cars that had pontiac motors. But I know without a doubt in my mind Pontiac made the motors I listed at the top of the post. They might have been the same cubic inches but they were Pontiac motors and not Cheverolet motors.

These engines you are mentioning are most likely Chevy engines, just Pontiac modified them a little bit. For example the 300 was most likely a Chevy 289 (or is it 296 I can't remember), Pontiac just increased the displacement a bit. The 400 is a Chevrolet 396.

Pontiac had it's own team that researched and developed the heads along with the engineand all the parts for the pontiac engines. For some of the engines they borrowed the displacements from chevy.As far as the engines go the 400 is a 400, just like a 302 is a 302. When Pontiac made the GTO's they started with a Pontiac 389, then they made a Pontiac 400, and from their they increased displacement( by increasing the bore and stroke) and made the 455 H.0 motor. I don't know exactly when GM stepped in and said that Pontiacs would start being made with Chevy motors, as a matter of fact GMs use to come with GM motors too not chevy motors. Pontiac reasearched on it's own to design it's own engines until GM or Chevy decided that no matter what pontiac or oldsmobile had on their own a chevy motor would be in it. I know for a fact that pontiac researched and designed it's own heads for it's own engine, if anything was borrowed from chevy it may have been just the cubic inches.

Now from what I heard in the Street Racing forums, the Tri Power/389 your talking about was derived from some of the 50's Chevy vehicles.

Heh this is getting pretty off topic, then again so was argueing about the Cobra and the Viper even though the topic says Viper Vs GT40, oh well.

sax

i do not favour any American make, i have equal feeling for them all, in fact the Ford GT40 is one of my favourite cars ever. Its just the Mustang has always been known for its raw power and dodgy handling,and according to everythin i have ever read things havent changed

rob

over here they sell so few numbers of each car that i would imagine it pretty pointless for any American manufacturer to bribe the magazines. therefore i believe European magazines to be very reliable in their testing of these cars.

DeViL

old mustangs are desirable here, because of their cult status,but the new stangs dont have any reputation to them, and as the magazines write them off, noone buys them.the viper fairs a bit better, but even that is far from suited to our roads,and sales reflect this.i have about 3 Vipers (2 owned by one man),and there is not a single example of the new breed of Mustangs, and perhaps only one or two old school stangs

gt40 should be faster than the viper!
and i like it more!:D

I think that if Ford doesn't make the GT-40 eclipse the Viper in every way-----then its a major disaster for Ford----for 100K it really has to slay the Viper-----otherwise, it becomes like a Greek tragedy.:alien:

Yea Devil I know it is getting off the topic. And I just want you to know that I know Pontiac motors were created heavily and based heavily on Cheverolet knowledge. I was just saying pontiac actually made their own engines with alot of the stuff chevy guys were using. Now all of the cars GM owns have true chevy engines.

And Pennzoil,
I understand what you are saying. When I think of handling and road courses even being a fan of ford I don't think of the mustang. When I think mustang and my mustang be 1990, I think of setting it to run the quarter mile in drag racing. The body style mustang I have is so easy and works so well in drag racing. The only ford I think for road racing is the GT-40, but I am not putting other fords down. I know you can totally change the suspension and make the car a good handler on the road course but you better have deep pockets if you know what I mean. I look at the mustang and think drag race not road race.

Lets just put it like this and I am sure everyone will agree with me on this, or at least I hope y'all do. Almost any car can be made to do almost anything you want it to, like drag racing or road racing, if you have enough money.

for 100K it really has to slay the Viper-----otherwise, it becomes like a Greek tragedy

I would agree on that. 100,000 bucks, it damn well better be good. I don't think anyone will have to worry about dissapointment though. The old one seemed to run pretty well, I'm sure this one will do better.

The thing about cars like that though, unless you really are into taking your car to road courses and stuff, what can you do with it. Sure it will give a lot of cars a run for the money on the street, but you're going to have a bunch of mid to old age rich snobs driving them, and not putting them to much good use or pushing them to the limits. You can't really turn that car into a drag racer either. Same goes for Lamborghinis and SOME of the Ferrari's. Now a couple designed Ferrari's I'm sure you could set up for drag racing if you really wanted to, but something like an F40...no hope. Thats one of the things I like about the Viper, it can be a drag racing car if you want it to be. I'd wet myself if I blew a motor up but I'd have to be rich anyways to drag race a car like that.


I also didn't even think about another thing about the demand for the American cars in Europe. Most people seem to complain about the Viper's rough and rugged ride, I doubt I'd mind that but I imagine someone who has to constantly go through some of the roads in Europe would. Thus the car isn't exactly "liked".

I was reading this magazine that was trying to compare the 02 Z06 and 03 Viper. The typical this one is better at this, this has better that, etc etc, that wasn't the interesting part. I flip through it a little more, they were showing a comparison between the 03 Cobra, BMW M3, and that Masareti, something like that I can't remember the correct spelling, Penzoil was talking to me about it one time he'd know the name.

Anyways they showed the interior of all three cars, then they criticized the Mustang for the plastic-like interior, and how refined and nice looking the other two cars were compared to it. I'm looking at the M3 interior, what the fuck do they see in that? It is not that fancy at all its really plain looking. Some buttons on the steering wheel I dunno what their functions were, so what the Cobra had the same thing, hell my 88 GTA has just about all the stereo controls on the steering wheel, big deal BMW. Stereo setup looked about the same as the Cobra, nothing better about it, the whole setup was similar, actually the Cobra might of looked a little better. Power windows, yeah so what. Plastic looking, I don't really see where they think it looks like plastic, the M3 looked no better.

I'll tell you---a lot of these magazines----critique the queerest things about a car-----I'm surprised that they didn't critique the speed of which the convertible top comes down in an M3 as opposed to a conv. Cobra (M3 top comes down 2 sec. faster)---its fricken pathetic------I saw that same article in Motor Trend-----I agree Devil----I just don't see how the M3 interior---is so 'revolutionary' and the Cobras---'so cheap and primitive'

I don't even think they get in the cars. They just assume that the M3 is fancy because its a BMW and the Cobra, hell they even made the same comment about the Vette's, are cheap looking because they are American. All I hear about the Vette is it's leather wrapped steering wheel is so plastic-like. My S-10 has almost the same leather steering wheel the Vette has besides cosmetic differences. It doesn't look like plastic, it looks like leather, tight leather fitted on a steering wheel firmly. When you put your hands on it, feel around it, it feels like leather not plastic. They try to nitpick and its bullshit.

I don't exactly like the idea that the Cobra is supercharged and DOHC, especially because you have to compare it against other American cars like the Viper, but when it comes to comparing them to foreign companies, I think it's necessary Ford did that. German, Italian, Japanese, almost all their cars use DOHC and or they come with twin turbos from the factory, and they brag about how great their engines are. Someone in the American industry needed to show them that we can do the same thing just as easily.

the reason I like the idea of the supercharger is simply because its a great application of good technology off the showroom floor-----and more importantly-----its going to escalate the power and handling aspect of car manufacturers today.

Originally posted by robslob
the reason I like the idea of the supercharger is simply because its a great application of good technology off the showroom floor-----and more importantly-----its going to escalate the power and handling aspect of car manufacturers today.

How does a blower escalate the handling aspects of a car?

what I meant to say was that an increase in horsepower by manufacturers, is going to also lead car manufacturers to push the envelope of performance. The more power put in, the more improvements that will be made to handling, traction, hot-shot performance of every car advertised as being competitive and geared to the sport car market.

the gt40 looks better than viper!

that will be made to handling, traction, hot-shot performance of every car advertised as being competitive and geared to the sport car market.

Yeah but isn't that what car companies are doing already even without a supercharger? Viper is a prime example of that, they keep putting more power into it, and keep trying to improve its handling and ride at the same time. Really though that goes for just about every car, even family cars.

The supercharger is just a economical and more efficient way to make big power. Don't get me wrong a love the Viper and it's big block making 500 horsepower with the new viper but the new cobra with a supercharger is making 390 horsepower, from what ford says but most everyone else says the number is more like 425 horsepower. This horsepower is from a 286 cubic inch engine. Ford just used the supercharger so they could keep the car relatively cheap. At under 40,000 for that kind of power, and for around 3-5,000 more dollars the cobra can put more than 500 horsepower to the rear wheels. Now as far as handling you can upgrade that too, I don't really know if it is close to the Viper in times when you do a little suspension work, but in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they had an article of a new cobra with suspension work and I think the lap times,can't remember the road course they were at, was about .5 to 1 second quicker the the 911 Porsche turbo cars that were their. We will just have to wait to see the new GT-40 in action. I think it was a good concept for ford. I would almost be willing to say that on the top of alot of people's list for performance upgrades to a car their is either a supercharger/blower, nitrous, or turbo. Ford just went ahead and used a supercharger on one of it's production cars.

i didnt knew that the gt40 had a supercharger:eek:

ford claims that the gt40 will be blown-----but the addition of the blown Cobra----is really go to cause a rivalry among sport car makers----simple because it has upped the anti. The 03 Cobra represents a challenge to the top dog makers like the makers of Viper and the Z06---thats how it is to be interpreted. I'm pretty confident about that remark, simply because in 2006, the C6 vette is supposed to be launched and the 06 Cobra will come out that year---but according to Ford, it will be the sportscar that outduels every sport car under $100K. So if those words are indeed true and not just tough talk, then this 03---is just a preview of whats to come. With a cast iron block, and the forged internals already being used, whose to say Ford won't produce a Cobra----planting 600rwhp----that can handle to boot!

Originally posted by robslob
ford claims that the gt40 will be blown-----but the addition of the blown Cobra----is really go to cause a rivalry among sport car makers----simple because it has upped the anti. The 03 Cobra represents a challenge to the top dog makers like the makers of Viper and the Z06---thats how it is to be interpreted. I'm pretty confident about that remark, simply because in 2006, the C6 vette is supposed to be launched and the 06 Cobra will come out that year---but according to Ford, it will be the sportscar that outduels every sport car under $100K. So if those words are indeed true and not just tough talk, then this 03---is just a preview of whats to come. With a cast iron block, and the forged internals already being used, whose to say Ford won't produce a Cobra----planting 600rwhp----that can handle to boot!

The one problem with your statement is that the GT-40 will compete with cars under $100k and cost $138k. Ford is only planning to produce aabout 100 of these cars which will make it pretty much invisible (except to the collector). Based on this it seems that Ford is not trying to compete with anyone. They are just trying to deflect the fact that they are in financial dire straights.

Just an FYI, they will have to produce 500 of these cars to compete in Le Mans GTS class racing. I'm not sure how Saleen got around that rule, or how they were able to classify the S7 as a production vehicle in the GTS class (they should be bumped up to the LMP class). To date they have yet to deliver more than a few of them to customers. I run around Irvine (where Saleen makes the S7) and they are always out there testing them. At least Panoz has delivered production versions of their vehicle.

I for one would have been a candidate to add a GT-40 to my stable (to keep my Viper and my Vette company). Based on this news, I will have to look elsewhere.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your post, I say this because I was talking more about the impact of the 03 Cobra not so much the GT40. You are right about the price of the GT40, but you're not accurate about production numbers. Just recently Ford confirmed that they plan on building 1,000 units per year starting with the inagural debut in '04. Here's the article: http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0210/15/c01-612538.htm

thats way to much cars'1

Viper 10, I am curious, have you ever run a saleen s7 or seen one at a track(road course is what I am asking for)? I just want to know how well the car handles.

Rob:

Sorry for the mistake on production numbers for the GT-40. I read the same article.

Sax, I have only run into one white S7 while driving around Irvine. The driver did not want to play when I drove up on his tail or next to him. I have got to believe that they were doing a were testing an early production model. It was definitely not a track car.

I have never run into an S7 on track either. I tend spend more of my track days around local track and driving school events. Once is a while we get a glimpse at some factory prototype stuff. The last one that I saw was an turbocharged AWD racing version of a Ford Focus. It was really fun to follow that car around the track, because it was being driven by one of the factory drivers.

Brad

Thanks for the information. I would like to see a Saleen S7 in person but not much happens out here in South Carolina.

the S7 is a copy of the mclaren!
=but i dont think it runs so good!

Originally posted by robslob
I'll tell you---a lot of these magazines----critique the queerest things about a car-----I'm surprised that they didn't critique the speed of which the convertible top comes down in an M3 as opposed to a conv. Cobra (M3 top comes down 2 sec. faster)---its fricken pathetic------I saw that same article in Motor Trend-----I agree Devil----I just don't see how the M3 interior---is so 'revolutionary' and the Cobras---'so cheap and primitive'

its the kind of difference between stepping in an S-Class and stepping in a Camaro. maybe only subtle things, but there are undeniable differences

the m3 its a nice car!but i prefer a the cobra!

and its not that overwhelming as compared to the Cobras. Yes, the M3 has a nicer interior than the Cobra-----but your anology of the Mercedes S series interior compared to the Camaro's---well, is a very poor comparison. I imagine Pennzoil that you haven't seen the interior of the Cobra---because you so boldly think that the M3 interior is so top notch.

Viper 10---no need to apologize, I'd expect the same from you :smoka:

the s class interior its mutch more superior tahn a camaros one!

no shit dumbass, the S series has a nicer interior than a camaro-----read the post correctly---better yet, go look up the word ANALOGY---so you then maybe you might stumble upon what I was talking about:eek:

the S-Class was a bad comparison yes, but it was a very obvious one to let you see what i was talking about, and also eliminate any room for disagreement.and yes i have seen the cobras interior. hate to be so harsh, but "outdated styling coupled with ford build quality" springs to mind. and yes there is cheap plastic everywhere. at the end of the day ford will never make a car like BMW.

thats a very bad comparison!

Now I would argue that the M3 interior looks like plastic as well, though I'd have to actually see one up and close to make a confirmation on that, looking at pictures doesn't exactly help much. I will say this, the interior surrounding the guages, the whole console and the rest, looked a little more "firm". Thats the only way to explain it I guess I can't think up another word. Still though, it appeared to me to just be "firm" plastic.

This article I was reading was nitpicking so much though about the Cobra just to make it look bad. They started complaining about how they didn't like the angle at which the 6 speed was at. They didn't really go into much about how it could compare to the other cars as far as performance, which is the most important aspect. They sounded like a bunch of old rich pussies. The Corvette and Viper comparison were almost just as bad, oh its too hot in the Viper even with the AC on boohoo, well the SRT-10 is a convertible genius, put the top down. Next time I'll know what to expect from an article from Motor Trend.

Originally posted by DeViL
Now I would argue that the M3 interior looks like plastic as well, though I'd have to actually see one up and close to make a confirmation on that, looking at pictures doesn't exactly help much. I will say this, the interior surrounding the guages, the whole console and the rest, looked a little more "firm". Thats the only way to explain it I guess I can't think up another word. Still though, it appeared to me to just be "firm" plastic.

This article I was reading was nitpicking so much though about the Cobra just to make it look bad. They started complaining about how they didn't like the angle at which the 6 speed was at. They didn't really go into much about how it could compare to the other cars as far as performance, which is the most important aspect. They sounded like a bunch of old rich pussies. The Corvette and Viper comparison were almost just as bad, oh its too hot in the Viper even with the AC on boohoo, well the SRT-10 is a convertible genius, put the top down. Next time I'll know what to expect from an article from Motor Trend.


I have to agree. To many people complain about the viper and corvette. All i have to say is you can put the viper against alot of spots cars and it would smoke them, same goes for the corvette. If they dont like how hot it is then go get a bmw. If im going to go buy a sport car i want it to be fast. I dont care about the heat. As long as i can pool up next to most any sport car on the street and whoop them im happy

a ford pinto vs. GT40 sounds like a good race

a ford pinto vs. GT40 sounds like a good race


Please take all the pix off! I hate scrolling through message boards and seeing this kinda stuff. Viper 10 has the limit as far as size for a pic.. and you've got 2 bigger than his. C'mon. Have respect. Plus The ford pinto vs gt40 thing. It's dumb, and you're taking up space for no reason.

A Viper can push more than 1000hp out of the engine. I have no doubt that they can also snug easily under 9 second quarters. But one thing I do bet is that after they ran their 9 second quarter, they take those drag radials off, and drive that baby home.
Just look at Lingenfelter, they produce 750+hp vettes as daily drivers. I believe the 427TT vette is boosted somwhere around 9psi. Some people look for the best reliability when modifing their automobile, and some don't. But that doesn't mean they are strictly restricted to these hp amounts. You could up the boost on a 427TT and be ridiculously fast, but then you sacrificing reliability and drivability. Which brings me back to the point of the Viper. Their's an immense power potential in that engine.

Who does Dodge and many other American car companies make such big engines with such an appaling horse power - CC ratio?

The reasons why america's into big engines:

1) history.. we have a past with muscle. Look at the 442's the gto judge's.. wow 454 v8s? The viper hasn't only been marketed with the sports car moniquer, but also under the guise of a muscle car.

2) Reliablility of power. Yeah.. a four cylinder celica's pretty damned reliable. But when you boost it up to 500hp, your reliablility due to various forms of forced induction, and boring and possibly even nitrous oxide... these are all going to bring the reliability of the engine and drive train down. Forced induction (turbocharger/supercharger) will be adding more parts that can go wrong, and forcing more pressure on various engine components. When you bore out your engine there are various problems that can go wrong especially if you don't get a proper stroke.. and if your compression ratio's too much or too little. Adding nitrous... wow.. we don't even need to go into the problems with nitrous.. o-rings etc.. So now look at the viper's engine.

3) Torque. Generally speaking look at an engine's size vs it's torque to hp ratio. Ferrari's have wide bands but because of their engine sizes being small their torque bands don't start until higher rpms, vs the viper which starts at (don't quote me on this) around 750rpms. A lot of the times when we see decked out cars with 4 cylinders they don't have nearly the amount of torque as they do horsepower. But look at the viper and vette. The viper has 500hp and 505lb-ft of torque. that's a 1:1 ratio I crawled around supercar.net and the highest ratio for a supra I could find is 596 - 800hp.

The new GT40 will be $150k is what i've been hearing. There is a Top Gear video where they test drive the GT40 and he says that it's one of the best cars he's ever driven. Will be a very tough car to beat when it comes out and i cannot wait to see one!

William

i really like the Viper and the GT40 but if these two cars race, i think the GT40 would have a better chance winning.