Still Dumbfounded about tuning

Hey guys i have a few questions that i have because im going to be getting all my shit soon for my car when i get my tax return next year. Ive read contless articels on dsmtuners, here, and even downloaded dsmtuning sheet on dsmtuners.com. Still, i am not grasping the concept of how to tune my car. Maybe because i havent had hands on experience yet, but i just want to know as much as possible before i get serious about this. Thanks in advance guys!!!

My first question is the pocketlogger obviously works by giving computer access to the car, correct?

But of course a pocketlogger is useless without software, like DSM link, and replacing the factory EPROM ECU? In other words, i cant just log onto my ecu without the ECU being modified and software, right? LEt me know if this is wrong.

Next, could i just get a small 16g, supporting fuel mods, etc. and set the boost at say, 19-20 psi, without tuning. From what i read, i have come to the conclusion that this can create problems and destory my engine....with knock, running to rich/lean, etc. Please inform me on this.

Well thats all i have for now....Thanks!

You can log without ECU mods and DSMLink.

Pocketlogger is awesome, but you have to pay. The support is worth it IMO, but you can go the free route if need be.

"Without tuning" should not be in anybody's vocabulary, ESPECIALLY when talking mods and high boost.

[QUOTE=LandoAWD]You can log without ECU mods and DSMLink.

Pocketlogger is awesome, but you have to pay. The support is worth it IMO, but you can go the free route if need be.

QUOTE]

So if i get pocketlogger i can log onto my ecu easily right? But of course i may not be able to do anything, correct? What will happen if i just log on there without ecu mods, DSM link? also, what is the "free route"?

Pocketlogger, Tunerstein, or any of the other PDA logging programs just lets you read specific data that your ECU is processing. It just plugs into your OBDII port, like a diagnostic tool at Autozone would.

That being said, you can run a 16g with or without fuel mods, as long as you log it. You can raise or lower boost, and log to make sure you are not damaging the engine.

A popular combo is the palm logger and SAFC or SAFCII. The SAFC is the device that actually lets you tune the car, and enrich or lean out the mixture for your car to run optimally. If you get DSMlink, that's all you need, because it logs and allows you to make adjustments at the same time.

I hope this helps a little; I'm just getting started on this stuff as well.

Yea im going through the tunning process rite now, AND ITS A PAIN IN THE REAR.
I got the 16g,55occ injectors, 190fuel pump, Pocketlogger, and S-AFCII.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16346&cat=0&page=

this is what i bought.

http://www.pocketlogger.com/
read the fourms, and the "start here: 1g dsm & obdII" at the top of the page. you should pick up a few new things in the tunning sections.

Yea im going through the tunning process rite now, AND ITS A PAIN IN THE REAR.
I got the 16g,55occ injectors, 190fuel pump, Pocketlogger, and S-AFCII.

http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=16346&cat=0&page=

this is what i bought.
So with the fuel management kit, do i still need dsmlink or am i fine with apexi afc? I still probably need to get my ecu upgraded right? And i also still need to get some software? Because the way i see it is....with DSMlink i have the logger, software, and ecu upgrade? Sorry for the stupid questions, its just i dont understand. Thanks!

ohh. this is tuning 101 for you isnt it.

if you get the SAFC you do NOT need DSMlink or any olther ECU mods to tune...a pocket logger displays the info and status ...then you use the SAFC to tune ....DSMlink is everything in one program.....ECU upgrades are NOT need to use any of the things above...ECU upgrades do hlep but are not needed....

You need either:
Option 1:
-a palm PDA with the Pocketlogger program installed
-a pocketlogger cable to hook up the palm to your OBDII port
-an SAFC or SAFCII to make adjustments

--or--

Option 2:
-DSMlink
-EPROM ecu (found in 95 dsms)

Those are your best bets. Option 1 is cheaper, option 2 is more versatile, and generally better overall.

you really should read all the information on the site i posted. there is alot of good information on there

When are you looking on getting this stuff, sisnt you say around the tax return time. lol I may be in the market for DSMLink and i could sell you the S-AFCII and Pocketlogger and Palm pilot for a good price.

tuning is a big word. modding is a better description of the term.


i still haven't done any real tuning on my car. i have adjusted the Profec and taken logs and such, but i have never touched the SAFC2. i leave that up to the guy's that know exactly what they are doing.

i do know what you need to support what and all the little things in between tho. that is the most important. knowing things like you need an FPR with a 255 fuel pump because you will run rich at part throttle. those are the things you need to learn the most. that way when you get up to the actual changing of fuel maps you know what the fuck is going on.

i suppose i could do it myself. it isn't that hard for me now. the pocketlogger forums are great. also RKO for sure is a great one. this place is more of a lighter side of modding spot, but still a great place to find out where to get the in depth info.

yea but i dont see what good a pocketlogger does besides monitor , i personally am in love ith dsmlink

ohh. this is tuning 101 for you isnt it.
Yea when i said i know nothing about tuning....I mean ABSOULTELY NOTHING about tuning, which i why iwant to learn.

you really should read all the information on the site i posted. there is alot of good information on there
Yea i am reading as i am going along....cant read too much into because i have projects due this week and finals due next week, but during my vacation im gonna look more into it.

[QUOTE=BoostedSpyder]also RKO for sure is a great one. QUOTE]
Could you direct me to the RKO spot?

The pocketlogger software logs what the ECU is doing and what the engine is doing and puts it in a data sheet that you can view on your computer. Then you can see what needs to be adjusted and make them on the S-AFC. then you get to do it all over again. Yes the DSMLink is more versital and you have no need for a palm pilot or S-AFC. But you have to have a EPROM ECU and DSMLink cost more. THere are Pros and Cons to both. But for someone on a budget LIKE MUAH! I went the cheaper route.
So it all depends on what is your short and long term goals for your car MedalHeadSkater.

I mean how is your income, are you going to be a drag strip regular or just once in a while.

I went with the cheaper option(but that dosnt mean its not good) because Im in college and working part time and not really going for setting my car up for the drag strip just yet. Im going to once I graduate or close to finishing school. But so far Im not regreting the choice to go with the cheaper option.

What all mods do you have on your car, and what do you plan on getting on it in the near future.
No matter what option you choose you will need the suporting fuel mods to go along with the 16g.

[QUOTE=BoostedSpyder]also RKO for sure is a great one. QUOTE]
Could you direct me to the RKO spot?

A couple links that may help you

http://www.racingknowledge.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1011

http://pocketlogger.com/forum/index.php

http://www.racingknowledge.org/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=39

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafcsetting.htm

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/2gupgradepath.htm

http://dsmlink.com/faq.html

I am turbo charging my 1.8 eclipse and it doesnt have a nice computer that reads everything really acurately so im just using an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor (PLX) and guage, an MAFt, a walbro fuel punp, and FPR. Seems simple and cheap enough for me. If that doesnt allow me to control everything to my liking then i may throw an SAFC on there too, but with a wideband you cant mess up as long as you keep it in the green (ok so you CAN still detonate if you run lots of boost and dont keep it rich enough to keep the combustion on the cooler side, but you know what i mean).

oh yea I forgot, if you do get a DSMLink you will still need a laptop computer to run it on to hook up to your car.
I now have a laptop so im thinking about going to the DSMLINK but not sure. I already have the EPROM ECU so thats a +

The pocketlogger software logs what the ECU is doing and what the engine is doing and puts it in a data sheet that you can view on your computer. Then you can see what needs to be adjusted and make them on the S-AFC. then you get to do it all over again. Yes the DSMLink is more versital and you have no need for a palm pilot or S-AFC. But you have to have a EPROM ECU and DSMLink cost more. THere are Pros and Cons to both. But for someone on a budget LIKE MUAH! I went the cheaper route.
So it all depends on what is your short and long term goals for your car MedalHeadSkater.

I mean how is your income, are you going to be a drag strip regular or just once in a while.

I went with the cheaper option(but that dosnt mean its not good) because Im in college and working part time and not really going for setting my car up for the drag strip just yet. Im going to once I graduate or close to finishing school. But so far Im not regreting the choice to go with the cheaper option.

What all mods do you have on your car, and what do you plan on getting on it in the near future.
No matter what option you choose you will need the suporting fuel mods to go along with the 16g.

Yea thats the same problem with me. I am in college, absolutely no income at all, and not looking for a heavy dragster maybe looking for a car that can hit low 13s. I am living on whats left over my summer job. I make about 6 grand in the summer, and have about 3000 grand to play with because of insurance and car payments. But yea im definately going for the chaper option because 500 for DSMlink is desirable, but unafforadable. But can i still tune the car sufficiently for my goals with the S-AFC? Also, will it be easier to tune with it? I have avery knowledgeable DSM buddy of mine, but i still wanna bea able to learn. As for my mods, i have them listed. I still need to get a DP, maybe port my o2 housing, fuel upgrade, and i think ill be good to go for a turbo upgrade.

Thanks for the links, BTW.

Yea thats the same problem with me. I am in college, absolutely no income at all, and not looking for a heavy dragster maybe looking for a car that can hit low 13s. I am living on whats left over my summer job. I make about 6 grand in the summer, and have about 3000 grand to play with because of insurance and car payments. But yea im definately going for the chaper option because 500 for DSMlink is desirable, but unafforadable. But can i still tune the car sufficiently for my goals with the S-AFC? Also, will it be easier to tune with it? I have avery knowledgeable DSM buddy of mine, but i still wanna bea able to learn. As for my mods, i have them listed. I still need to get a DP, maybe port my o2 housing, fuel upgrade, and i think ill be good to go for a turbo upgrade.

Thanks for the links, BTW.


Yea i have 95 GST
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

and so for from cars ive ran and people ive talked to, its well into the 13's and still not tunned right yet.
So for your question about is it able to hit 13's with the s-afcII and pocketlogger setup HEEEEELL YEA!!!!!

Yea i have 95 GST
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

and so for from cars ive ran and people ive talked to, its well into the 13's and still not tunned right yet.
So for your question about is it able to hit 13's with the s-afcII and pocketlogger setup HEEEEELL YEA!!!!!

So shouldnt you be running more than 16 psi....I mean the t-25 can hit 15....Im assuming that its set at 16 psi because it not tuned? If so, man its gonna suck tuning....if you cant get over sixteen im not gonna be able to get over 15

well just because im only running 16psi on the 16g its still moving a lot more air than the t25 at 16psi.
And yes once i get it tuned i'll be able to boost like 18psi on the stock side mount intercooler. with a FMIC i'll boost over 20psi. but trust me 20psi on a 16g and 20psi on a t2small is a huge diffrence.

well just because im only running 16psi on the 16g its still moving a lot more air than the t25 at 16psi.
And yes once i get it tuned i'll be able to boost like 18psi on the stock side mount intercooler. with a FMIC i'll boost over 20psi. but trust me 20psi on a 16g and 20psi on a t2small is a huge diffrence.

Whats keeping you from tuning it? Is it really that hard? Or is it because of school and shit and no time? I hope its not because its really all that hard!

I would love to learn too.

its just time consuming, with school and work and the holidays i've been real busy so havnt really had time to tune. plus the weather has been crappy too. always raining.

I'm clueless about tuning as well.. it's so complicated.

This thread helped a lot.

I have a question for you tuning gurus out there. If I were to get the GReddy e-01, what else would I need to tune? The e-01 is a boost controller/data logger correct? So I would need the S-AFC II still.. anything else I would need with it?

I'm clueless about tuning as well.. it's so complicated.

This thread helped a lot.

I have a question for you tuning gurus out there. If I were to get the GReddy e-01, what else would I need to tune? The e-01 is a boost controller/data logger correct? So I would need the S-AFC II still.. anything else I would need with it?


yea especially if you got a Honda. :lol2: :loser: j/k
Is that just your name or do you really have a honda hehe
Im not dure about the e-)1 being a logger to. Not sure thought.

I do have a Honda.. I'm selling it later this year for a GSX (if I can find one).

lol yea good idea, good luck.

You are seeing the light!

I've always seen the light.. Eclipses have been my favorite car since the 2G came out. It was just a matter of need of a car vs price. Since I'm going to be making some decent money this summer, I figure I'll sell my civic and get a good tuning car.

Anyways.. sorry to hijack the thread.. back to tuning.

yea i just had to ask the question because people who dont know anything about tuning can benefit from this thread....ive searched on this forum for how to tune a dsm thread, and didnt find one so i though, hell, why not start one...plus it is breakthrough from questions like with intake is better or something like that...

I was hoping that a tuning section would be added when the sub-forums were implemented. Some where people could post their logs and get feedback from some of the more experienced tuners. Oh well..... And now that dsmtalk.com is down (maybe forever) I don't know what to do :disappoin

I was hoping that a tuning section would be added when the sub-forums were implemented. Nobody posts in the correct foum as is. We need a bit more moderation, IMO.

ditto, but there is only so much they can do, they have lifes like everyone else. but a tuning sub-fourm would be benificial

Metalhead, you can probably get into the low 13s without an AFC...just get a logger to make sure you're not breaking shit, and a 14b or 16g. If you're having trouble, then you can add the SAFC and get the car running its best. A decent logger-SAFC combo will cost you about $300, used.

I don't think we have enough tuning thread volume for a tuning section...

Where has Kevin been for the past week?

Metalhead, you can probably get into the low 13s without an AFC...just get a logger to make sure you're not breaking shit, and a 14b or 16g. If you're having trouble, then you can add the SAFC and get the car running its best. A decent logger-SAFC combo will cost you about $300, used.

I don't think we have enough tuning thread volume for a tuning section...

Where has Kevin been for the past week?

Yea, i think im gonna buy the kit for 600 at extremepsi.com...I mean i might as well get it for the future. I really wanna get DSMlink, but just cant afford that....after i spend 2 grand this summer on my car....i think ill be done for a good time...so if i get the package....all i need then is a logger (maybe from pocketlogger.com) and ill be set to tune, right? Also, 95 eclipse gst, since you had the kit are you happy with it? Any problems with it, like the injectors, pump....?

Yea i havent seen Kevin in a while...was hoping hed contribute to my question, but oh well...you guys have been just as helpful! :smile:

Yea i have 95 GST
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

and so for from cars ive ran and people ive talked to, its well into the 13's and still not tunned right yet.
So for your question about is it able to hit 13's with the s-afcII and pocketlogger setup HEEEEELL YEA!!!!!
um no offense but there is no way i see possable that your in the 13's yet, maybe after a 3" exhaust and bigger pump , thats just my opinion sombody prove me if im wrong please.

Yea, i think im gonna buy the kit for 600 at extremepsi.com...I mean i might as well get it for the future. I really wanna get DSMlink, but just cant afford that....after i spend 2 grand this summer on my car....i think ill be done for a good time...so if i get the package....all i need then is a logger (maybe from pocketlogger.com) and ill be set to tune, right? Also, 95 eclipse gst, since you had the kit are you happy with it? Any problems with it, like the injectors, pump....?

Yea i havent seen Kevin in a while...was hoping hed contribute to my question, but oh well...you guys have been just as helpful! :smile:


i love it. abslutly no problems as of yet just trying to get the tunning crap done.

um no offense but there is no way i see possable that your in the 13's yet, maybe after a 3" exhaust and bigger pump , thats just my opinion sombody prove me if im wrong please.


well from some of the cars ive ran from around town that run 13's and 14s ive done some comparision. Not completly sure but im pretty confedent that when i get this tunned and then get to the track i'll be mid to low 13s. And from other people on forums that ive talked to with my mods and the right drive its very easy to break 13's.
When i get some time slips i'll post them.

13's aren't hard to get to with DSM's. reliable mid 12's are.

ok here is one thing that most are missing in this whole tuning thread.

the SAFC2/PL setup is ONLY to be able to run bigger injectors. that is all. the only thing the SAFC2 does is tell the ECU it is seeing less air so that it will increase the fuel. you need the logger to see things like timing advance and a/f ratio. you extrapolate the 2 to figure out where you need to adjust the fuel to decrease knock. that is what tuning is all about, making as much power as you can without knocking.

intercooling is the key to pump gas. you need to cool the charge air down so that it will not detonate prior to spark [knock]. pressure is directly related to temp, so that high pressure = high temp. 87 octane ignites at a lower temp than 91 [fucking cali]. so if you are running too much boost than the IC can correctly cool, you will knock.

now at this point PL may be usefull to tune your boost. you can see less timing advance or a rough curve of advance near the top end.

now DSMlink is a great tool for doing everything DSM. but only in the hands of an experienced user. just jumping into DSMLink is a huge move for most average modders. and it is a very race oriented program as well. i can't even take my car to the track without a roll bar, so i will never get it. SAFC2/PL works great for me.

then you gotta think about a place to tune. were is a spot that you can do repeated bottom of 2nd to top of 3rd pulls? most will find it hard to find such a spot. not to mention if you get caught that most of the shit on your car is illegal [fuckiing cali ;)]

but there ya go. think about that stuff for a minute :)

i know but he doesnt have many mods at all to begin with like the basics thats why im not sure

you can get a GSX into the 12's on less than $2k.

looking at those logs i can say he is fast, but can be MUCH faster.

regardless it is pie to get a DSM into the 13's

um no offense but there is no way i see possable that your in the 13's yet, maybe after a 3" exhaust and bigger pump , thats just my opinion sombody prove me if im wrong please.

Um, you're wrong.

That's his mod list:
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

What is that missing that keeps him out of the 13s? His fuel pump is more than enough, and his injectors are fine. He may not get low 13s out of it without an intercooler upgrade, but I am confident he can hit 13s.

Hell, one guy on here ran a 13.8 on the stock 2g turbo with just an air filter and exhaust.

>>EDIT: Granted, the above case was an AWD. But still. That's a T25 :p

Um, you're wrong.

That's his mod list:
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

What is that missing that keeps him out of the 13s? His fuel pump is more than enough, and his injectors are fine. He may not get low 13s out of it without an intercooler upgrade, but I am confident he can hit 13s.

Hell, one guy on here ran a 13.8 on the stock 2g turbo with just an air filter and exhaust.

>>EDIT: Granted, the above case was an AWD. But still. That's a T25 :p

i was debating he said low 13''s and isnt 3 inch piping the best way to good for the turbo? and yes of corse the fmic was what i was thinking too

Um, you're wrong.

That's his mod list:
2.5 turbo back echaust
UICP/LICP
1gBOV
MBC@16psi
Open Cone AirFilter
16g
550cc injectors
190pump
S-AFCII

What is that missing that keeps him out of the 13s? His fuel pump is more than enough, and his injectors are fine. He may not get low 13s out of it without an intercooler upgrade, but I am confident he can hit 13s.

Hell, one guy on here ran a 13.8 on the stock 2g turbo with just an air filter and exhaust.

>>EDIT: Granted, the above case was an AWD. But still. That's a T25 :p

oh and i forgot its not awd thats the biggest reason why i dont see it

I think the problem with piping that big with some turbos would be boost creep or spike. I think its creep. God I am a fucking newb.

yea i get a little boost creep with my 3inch catback...but its all good just set the boost with the bc and i havent any problems since...

there is no way i see possable that your in the 13's yet

Sorry, I was just going off of this comment. I believe low 13s are definitely do-able on his turbo, and probably on his current setup with maybe a front mount and race gas.

2.5" exhausts have gone deep 12s, and probably 11s. Unless he is making over 350 whp, I think he should be fine with 2.5". And no, they typically don't boost creep as much as 3".

13's aren't hard to get to with DSM's. reliable mid 12's are.

ok here is one thing that most are missing in this whole tuning thread.

the SAFC2/PL setup is ONLY to be able to run bigger injectors. that is all. the only thing the SAFC2 does is tell the ECU it is seeing less air so that it will increase the fuel. you need the logger to see things like timing advance and a/f ratio. you extrapolate the 2 to figure out where you need to adjust the fuel to decrease knock. that is what tuning is all about, making as much power as you can without knocking.


Ok, no. The SAFC or SAFC2 can be used to tune your car, i have done it on a number of RX7s and its no big deal. All you need is a wide band O2 sensor and air/fuel gauge, wich you can get for like $250 from PLX. And yes yes everybody knows why you need an intercooler, and as long as you have one, run premium gas, dont have the timing advanced too much, and you arent running like 30lbs of boost or something like that, the SAFC or SAFC2 can be used to tune your car and safely. Just stick to like 12:1 air fuel ratio at WOT and around 13.5:1 at low rpms and low throttle. Just stay conservative and after driving it around for a while and checking your spark plugs (get a book on how to read them if you dont already know) then you can try for closer to stoic for low rpms and idle where boost is rarely seen and shoot for 12.5 or 13:1 for higher rpms if everything shows that you have been as conservative as you thought to begin with. But while in the process of tuning your car always check your spark plugs, daily or twice a day, or more if need be.

As for tuning with the SAFC its self explanatory, if you have larger injectors, at rpms where boost hits hard and you need more fuel just dont correct for the larger injectors completely, start turning the MAF signal back up and more fuel will be added. If you have stock injectors then just add more fuel where fuel is needed.

You have to tune for High and Low throttle, and you set what is considered to be High and Low based on throttle position, so its all up to you, just be careful! I always make sure there is Marvels Mystery oil in the gas and start with the car really rich, do some third gear pulls and then after you get it closer to where you need it to be, then stop adding the M-M-oil (usless you use it all the time) and get a step closer. Just watch your water temp, oil temp, and egt if you have it, and of course watch you a/f ratio.

why put marvel mystery oil in the gas?

Just cuz when your car is running way rich its not very good for it (strips oil off cylinder walls), and it is suppose to keep things lubricated. I dont know, just makes me feel better i guess.

hey wankel buddy, do you own a DSM?

a valid question, because while it seems that you have some OK automotive knowledge, it does not seem like you have a cluse as to DSM's

yes a wideband o2 is nice. but PL is also a great logging tool. wideband o2's are not cheap.

and no, not everyone understands the exact reason you need an intercooler. i would guess that most just go ''cooler denser air'' not ''it prevents knock and you can run higher boost''

also, by no means is tuning with the SAFC easy. if ti were there would be no questions about it. instead there are mile long threads with tons of info on them, and even more Q's.

and how many spark plugs have you changed? i have ones that have gone thru a couple rounds of tuning. ther has never once been an issue of having to pop plugs out for me.

and i don't even want to get into the whole M-M-oil. whatever the fuck that shit is. so before you go and try to represent what the fuck you are talking about read up on DSM's.

and the only thing that the SAFC does is change the airflow signal to the ECU. and we have a MAS not a MAF [well 99% of us].

without bigger injectors the SAFC is useless. the factory ECU is outstanding about running the 450's that come in the car. sure you can make some small adjustments [with the SAFC] if you are running the stock injectors. SMALL ADJUSTMENTS. and expect some frustrating Fuel Cut's along the way. what happens is that you hit the max duty cycle of the injectors, then you run way too lean and melt your head. plain and simple. the ECU is not programmed with maps for larger injectors [duh]. SO YOU NEED THE SAFC TO BE ABLE TO TELL THE ECU THAT THERE IS LESS AIR SO THAT IT WILL GIVE MORE GAS AND YOU CAN USE BIGGER INJECTORS. if there something i missed on the thing that adjusts tire inflation or something please tell me all about it.

just don't be dumb. please. it takes too long to correct some dumb ass comments so that bad information is not processed thruought the Newb brains.

ouch! that from a guy who has a mechanic do all his work.
since wankel is not around i can tell you that he has a turboed 1G 1.8 eclipse. btw the safc can be used for much more then just big injectors. it can be used to adjust the airflow reading to compensate for smaller injectors if you wanted to lol. its a tool to adjust the airflow readings going to the ecu. thats all it is its not magic but it is a powerful tool if used corrctly

Okay, so which is it? I mean some people are saying SAFC you can't tune with and some say you can. I mean i wanna avoid paying a shit load of money for dsm link, so if i could get safc that would be great. What are the main disadvatages of it? I mean can i have a durable car puching under 350 hp with the SAFC setup? Keep in mind i am a college student on a budget, wont be taking my car to the strip very often (havent done so because i wanna wait for mods to come), and not looking to hit past the 350 hp mark....

Also Joe, seeing as you and i are pretty much at the same mod stage....I want to know what are you going to go with when you begin tuning (you said you were also getting your feet wet in this as well)?

I would like to apologize for my long ass post, but i believe there is some good info so please read on....

Thank you 1stGenRocks! Ok, First of all BoostedSpyder your wrong! The MAS or MAF or AFM or MAP sensors or whatever the hell you want to call them, basically all do the same thing, they tell the ecu how much air is flowing through your intake by sending a specific voltage. The SAFC allows you to modify the voltage, you tell the SAFC which one of those you have and it knows how much of a change to make for any changes you make in the settings (+/- air flow signal) Raising the signal to the ecu ADDS MORE FUEL, and LOWERING TAKES AWAY FUEL!!! Larger injectors (550cc) dont need to open 80% to supply the same amount of fuel as a smaller one (450cc) does at 80%. Since there is a, what 19% increase (think thats right) going from 450 to 550 you turn the SAFC DOWN 19% across the board (which means the 550 is only opening 61% but still supplying what the 450 did at 80%), but all that does is get you back to the stock fuel curve. Now, this is fine if you have something else to tune your car with. Its actually very good because you have allowed your computer to see 19% more air and (roughly) moved your ceiling on your ability to make power up 19% (really only 17 or 18% due to volumetric efficiency being 90-95%). In other words, since your computer can only understand the MAF up to a certain voltage you have now decreased the base voltage, while supplying the same amount of fuel and making the same power and allowed more room for improvement.

Hope everyone is following me here!

I would like to apologize because i forgot to mention that OBD2 computers (some of them, not all) sometimes react badly to changes in MAS or MAP sensor signal. Specifically the honda prelude, however its computer will completely tune itself if you use the SAFC or VAFC hack (larger injectors and turn the MAP signal down) This is because the honda ecu doesnt like boost (more than 1 or 2psi), but if you turn the signal down 30 or 40% then the computer no longer sees it as boost, and only air again and you can safely run 10psi!
As for the OBD2 DSM, i have never heard of a problem, but i honestly cant say. However OBD1 computers have never heard of an SAFC and like to make new friends.

Ok, about the spark plugs, i do look at my plugs alot! Its an easy way to tell what your stock computer may not be able to tell you! I didnt say replace them all the time, i said LOOOK at them! If you know how to read the colors and the overall shape they are in then you can tell alot about how your car is running. For example, if they are all black then most likely you are running rich, which this is better than lean but closer to stoic would be more desirable and you will get more power and over time have less cylinder wear due to the cylinder walls being completely washed of oil. I believe brown or greyish-brown is usually a good sign but all grey or white usually means you are on the lean side. Its not that big of a deal as long as you have seen no other signs, running hotter than normal, or your a/f gauge reading lean, or whatever (on a turbo car it is of course a little more important)... but for most cars its just something to check on, usually it just means you got into some not so premium, premium gas) unless you see hairline cracks in the base (the white ceramic part of the plug) then you are detonating and need to fix your fuel mixture fast. Alot of the times a colder plug or retarding the timing a couple degrees will solve the problem of your plugs telling you your running lean if there are no other signs

Ok, with that said, you can tune a car with an SAFC, its not really hard, you just have to know what you are doing. Your right a data logger is a great thing, allows you to see more, just like an oil temp gauge or egt gauge would, its basically just another gauge. Now if your stock sensors (for your gauges) arent so hot a logger wont do you any good, and i dont believe that 1st gens sensors are quite up to par for today's standards and not only that most of them are getting close to 15 years old. SO I choose the SAFC and a wideband O2 sensor, and maybe a few aftermarket gauges! My car doesnt come stock with an oil temp sensor, or an egt (exhaust gas temp) sensor? Honestly its just a different way of doing it, so your way is fine and so is my way. Even if your way is all based on a Narrow band air fuel reading. Which I can explain how to tune your car with one of those if you like, but i wouldnt say its a very safe way to do things.

If i have made a mistake, someone please correct me, i dont know everything.

disadvantage of safc is it can only comensate for 50% over or 50% under. so the largest injectors they can support are those 750 and under. the other drawback of the apexi fuel controller is its piggyback controle. its a well rounded fuel controller. i cant say anything really bad about it. i think if you can get a good used one for under 200 and have no need for somthing as sufisticated as dsmlink its a good tool. but then of course you need to buy the logging software and media device to use it with. ohh, and then you need to install them both. me, personally, i'll spend the extra $200, and just plug dsmlink into my car becasue i have a computer to use with it.