Still Dumbfounded about tuning
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1 [2]
DreDay1984
12-11-2004, 12:38 AM
i was just saying dsmlink is the best tuner made specificly for the dsm
WankelTII
12-11-2004, 01:05 AM
Well if 50% larger injectors would do the job of 300hp then all you need is an SAFC and injectors and a fuel pump. If not then a 1:1 rising rate FPR or 3:1 FMU on top of those things might get you there, but you would be running rich under boost.
I believe with the combo of a MAFt and GM hot wire sensor AND SAFC you would get there, because both the MAFt and SAFC can turn down the MAS signal and compensate for injectors so you could go like 80% larger injectors, but thats getting silly and though you wouldnt need a laptop or extra PS2 controllers or a digital organizer :biggrin: to control them you would probably need a wide band and with all that you would have spent about $700. Nice thing about MAFt is that you can push air through it and if you put it near the tb you can use an external bov, and they are cool! :thumbsup:
I believe with the combo of a MAFt and GM hot wire sensor AND SAFC you would get there, because both the MAFt and SAFC can turn down the MAS signal and compensate for injectors so you could go like 80% larger injectors, but thats getting silly and though you wouldnt need a laptop or extra PS2 controllers or a digital organizer :biggrin: to control them you would probably need a wide band and with all that you would have spent about $700. Nice thing about MAFt is that you can push air through it and if you put it near the tb you can use an external bov, and they are cool! :thumbsup:
Urban_Squrill
12-11-2004, 01:33 AM
external bov
Do you mean venting your BOV?
Do you mean venting your BOV?
joemathews
12-11-2004, 02:40 AM
Well if 50% larger injectors would do the job of 300hp then all you need is an SAFC and injectors and a fuel pump. If not then a 1:1 rising rate FPR or 3:1 FMU on top of those things might get you there, but you would be running rich under boost.
Wankel, I would first like to thank you for being civil about things. Your initial comment toward Vince was uncalled for, especially when he was correct in saying that the main reason people run an AFC is to run bigger injectors (which, by extrapolation, means more fuel, to ideally mix with much more air, brought into the engine from a bigger turbo). People with the stock turbo usually don't have AFC's--heck, I may not even install my AFC until I have injectors and a fuel pump. You guys are right in saying that you are more limited in what you can do before you get rid of the 450s--obviously.
If you are tuning your car AT ALL--that means doing anything to it besides what the ecu tells the car to do--you MUST have some way to make sure you aren't breaking parts:
1) the most expensive, DSMlink
2) an expensive wideband o2 sensor for reading dead-accurate o2 voltage
3) a PDA logger setup hooked up through OBDII in 2gs
You must have a way to monitor what you are doing, to make sure you aren't getting super low timing at 6500 rpm in 3rd (a major sign that your car is pre-detonating [knock]).
Metalhead, when I get my Evo 16g on the car, I am going to start out running probably 10 lbs. of boost, and see what my logs look like. You never know how clogged your intercooler is, how well your fuel system is working, etc., so it is good to start over-cautiously low. I will raise boost slowly (1-2 psi at a time) until I see that my timing is dropping off, which, like I said, is the best way to show knock in a 2g with a datalogger.
Then, I will drop boost back down to 2-3 psi lower than when I began to see lost timing. This should give me an accurate and safe setting to use both in Florida and in Virginia, since, as we all know, significant change in temperature and elevation has profound effects on performance.
For my purposes, this setup made the most sense:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jtm3n/images/turbotoys.jpg
I paid about $50 more than a wideband costs for both the SAFC II and logger combined. Sure, I don't NEED an S-AFC II right now, on stock 450s, but it came as a nice package deal at a good price. The logging/tuning setup (S-AFCII and Pocketlogger) will be fine up to 350+ whp. If you are planning to make more than this in the near future, you should be going with DSMlink anyway ;)
My advice: get a logger, get a turbo, and go to town deciding what boost to safely run. When you have money for fuel mods, add injectors and a pump, then buy an SAFC, and let the fun begin.
Wankel, I would first like to thank you for being civil about things. Your initial comment toward Vince was uncalled for, especially when he was correct in saying that the main reason people run an AFC is to run bigger injectors (which, by extrapolation, means more fuel, to ideally mix with much more air, brought into the engine from a bigger turbo). People with the stock turbo usually don't have AFC's--heck, I may not even install my AFC until I have injectors and a fuel pump. You guys are right in saying that you are more limited in what you can do before you get rid of the 450s--obviously.
If you are tuning your car AT ALL--that means doing anything to it besides what the ecu tells the car to do--you MUST have some way to make sure you aren't breaking parts:
1) the most expensive, DSMlink
2) an expensive wideband o2 sensor for reading dead-accurate o2 voltage
3) a PDA logger setup hooked up through OBDII in 2gs
You must have a way to monitor what you are doing, to make sure you aren't getting super low timing at 6500 rpm in 3rd (a major sign that your car is pre-detonating [knock]).
Metalhead, when I get my Evo 16g on the car, I am going to start out running probably 10 lbs. of boost, and see what my logs look like. You never know how clogged your intercooler is, how well your fuel system is working, etc., so it is good to start over-cautiously low. I will raise boost slowly (1-2 psi at a time) until I see that my timing is dropping off, which, like I said, is the best way to show knock in a 2g with a datalogger.
Then, I will drop boost back down to 2-3 psi lower than when I began to see lost timing. This should give me an accurate and safe setting to use both in Florida and in Virginia, since, as we all know, significant change in temperature and elevation has profound effects on performance.
For my purposes, this setup made the most sense:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jtm3n/images/turbotoys.jpg
I paid about $50 more than a wideband costs for both the SAFC II and logger combined. Sure, I don't NEED an S-AFC II right now, on stock 450s, but it came as a nice package deal at a good price. The logging/tuning setup (S-AFCII and Pocketlogger) will be fine up to 350+ whp. If you are planning to make more than this in the near future, you should be going with DSMlink anyway ;)
My advice: get a logger, get a turbo, and go to town deciding what boost to safely run. When you have money for fuel mods, add injectors and a pump, then buy an SAFC, and let the fun begin.
WankelTII
12-11-2004, 03:04 AM
Ok, well actually now that i think about it, if it were me i would probably get a data logger too. I forget that you guys have computer controlled ignition and not a distributer, in fact, i have the only DSM with a disributer, so oops. However, that said you could still tune your car with the data logger and the SAFC. And I still say a wide band is very important, but i guess you can go to a dyno and use their wideband.
95ClipseGS-T
12-11-2004, 09:33 AM
disadvantage of safc is it can only comensate for 50% over or 50% under. so the largest injectors they can support are those 750 and under. the other drawback of the apexi fuel controller is its piggyback controle. its a well rounded fuel controller. i cant say anything really bad about it. i think if you can get a good used one for under 200 and have no need for somthing as sufisticated as dsmlink its a good tool. but then of course you need to buy the logging software and media device to use it with. ohh, and then you need to install them both. me, personally, i'll spend the extra $200, and just plug dsmlink into my car becasue i have a computer to use with it.
Yea this is all true but MetalHead is in the same boat as i am. We are both college students,low income, and not worried about having a all out drag car.yea If i would have had a laptop at the time of my chase i most likely would have went with the DSMLInk.
Option1:
He buys that kit from extremepsi.com like I did. He gets the 190pump,550cc injectors, and s-afcII for $600. Then he can buy a used palm M100 off ebay or amazon.com for like $30, then all he needs is the Pocketlogger Software from Pocketlogger.com for $175, wait the have the special still going you can get it for $125 now like i did.
Option 2:
He buys DSMLink, $600+,buys a laptop, $600+, buys a fuelpump and injectors$100-$300.
Option 1: $930
Option 2: -$1500+
-----------------
Total: $570+
So if he is anything like me, That $570+ is hard to come by while in college. Yes both options are expensive but MetalHead trust me you will not be disapointed in option 1 at all. I love it. Im using it with my setup and its well in he 13's. And thats fast enough to make camaro's and Mustangs drop their jaw. :eek2: I think all this talk about DSMLink and stuff like that is throwing you off. THe S-AFCII with the Pocketlogger software on a palm pilot will do you just fine. But I feel you. THis was a tough desision for me with all this talk about DSMLink and pros and cons but I went with my wallet, lol, and Im very happy with the setup.
Yea this is all true but MetalHead is in the same boat as i am. We are both college students,low income, and not worried about having a all out drag car.yea If i would have had a laptop at the time of my chase i most likely would have went with the DSMLInk.
Option1:
He buys that kit from extremepsi.com like I did. He gets the 190pump,550cc injectors, and s-afcII for $600. Then he can buy a used palm M100 off ebay or amazon.com for like $30, then all he needs is the Pocketlogger Software from Pocketlogger.com for $175, wait the have the special still going you can get it for $125 now like i did.
Option 2:
He buys DSMLink, $600+,buys a laptop, $600+, buys a fuelpump and injectors$100-$300.
Option 1: $930
Option 2: -$1500+
-----------------
Total: $570+
So if he is anything like me, That $570+ is hard to come by while in college. Yes both options are expensive but MetalHead trust me you will not be disapointed in option 1 at all. I love it. Im using it with my setup and its well in he 13's. And thats fast enough to make camaro's and Mustangs drop their jaw. :eek2: I think all this talk about DSMLink and stuff like that is throwing you off. THe S-AFCII with the Pocketlogger software on a palm pilot will do you just fine. But I feel you. THis was a tough desision for me with all this talk about DSMLink and pros and cons but I went with my wallet, lol, and Im very happy with the setup.
BoostedSpyder
12-13-2004, 11:15 PM
hey wankel buddy, do you own a DSM?
a valid question, because while it seems that you have some OK automotive knowledge, it does not seem like you have a clue as to DSM's... I am turbo charging my 1.8 eclipse and it doesnt have a nice computer that reads everything really acurately so im just using an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor (PLX) and guage, an MAFt, a walbro fuel punp, and FPR. Seems simple and cheap enough for me. If that doesnt allow me to control everything to my liking then i may throw an SAFC on there too, but with a wideband you cant mess up as long as you keep it in the green (ok so you CAN still detonate if you run lots of boost and dont keep it rich enough to keep the combustion on the cooler side, but you know what i mean).
good thing you are not going to get bigger injectors so that you won't blow your engine. nice thing to know. that is a great limiter.
Thank you 1stGenRocks! Ok, First of all BoostedSpyder your wrong! The MAS or MAF or AFM or MAP sensors or whatever the hell you want to call them, basically all do the same thing, they tell the ecu how much air is flowing through your intake by sending a specific voltage. The SAFC allows you to modify the voltage, you tell the SAFC which one of those you have and it knows how much of a change to make for any changes you make in the settings (+/- air flow signal) Raising the signal to the ecu ADDS MORE FUEL, and LOWERING TAKES AWAY FUEL!!! Larger injectors (550cc) dont need to open 80% to supply the same amount of fuel as a smaller one (450cc) does at 80%. Since there is a, what 19% increase (think thats right) going from 450 to 550 you turn the SAFC DOWN 19% across the board (which means the 550 is only opening 61% but still supplying what the 450 did at 80%), but all that does is get you back to the stock fuel curve. Now, this is fine if you have something else to tune your car with. Its actually very good because you have allowed your computer to see 19% more air and (roughly) moved your ceiling on your ability to make power up 19% (really only 17 or 18% due to volumetric efficiency being 90-95%). In other words, since your computer can only understand the MAF up to a certain voltage you have now decreased the base voltage, while supplying the same amount of fuel and making the same power and allowed more room for improvement.
that is nice, kinda like exactly what i said, so how could i be wrong? you even mentioned other injectors in there... but what happens when you hit max duty cycle on the stock injector? you run lean, which can be seen on the pocketlogger. ok so adjust. but where? oh, back to about the stock settings, or about there. and the ECU does a very good job abou that point, and if you had a DSM you would know this.
Ok, well actually now that i think about it, if it were me i would probably get a data logger too. I forget that you guys have computer controlled ignition and not a distributer, in fact, i have the only DSM with a disributer, so oops. However, that said you could still tune your car with the data logger and the SAFC. And I still say a wide band is very important, but i guess you can go to a dyno and use their wideband.
sorry bud, but first off you don't have a DSM...
i'm not trying to bash ya or anything, just trying to make sense of it for the others in here.
turboing a NT is a huge task. and since you have a wideband and a way to tune [MAFt] you are in the right place to start.
when i'm not touching my SAFC, i'm driving, making the pulls with Roy from RRE doing the tuning. i'm sorry, but when there is a tried and tested expert that will tune for free, i'm in the other seat. i could do it myself, but why not leave it to the experts?
this can go on and on forever, so here is the easiest:
******************************************
you make more air.
you need more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [pump, FPR]
the DSM ECU woks great untill you make even more air.
you need even more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [injectors]
you get something to 'control' your ECU to see less air to make more fuel [MAFt, SAFC, DSMlink] or a standalone like AEM EMS
you tune it so that you are making the most air and fuel and not knocking.
******************************************
~~~tuning in a nutshell~~~
a valid question, because while it seems that you have some OK automotive knowledge, it does not seem like you have a clue as to DSM's... I am turbo charging my 1.8 eclipse and it doesnt have a nice computer that reads everything really acurately so im just using an aftermarket wideband O2 sensor (PLX) and guage, an MAFt, a walbro fuel punp, and FPR. Seems simple and cheap enough for me. If that doesnt allow me to control everything to my liking then i may throw an SAFC on there too, but with a wideband you cant mess up as long as you keep it in the green (ok so you CAN still detonate if you run lots of boost and dont keep it rich enough to keep the combustion on the cooler side, but you know what i mean).
good thing you are not going to get bigger injectors so that you won't blow your engine. nice thing to know. that is a great limiter.
Thank you 1stGenRocks! Ok, First of all BoostedSpyder your wrong! The MAS or MAF or AFM or MAP sensors or whatever the hell you want to call them, basically all do the same thing, they tell the ecu how much air is flowing through your intake by sending a specific voltage. The SAFC allows you to modify the voltage, you tell the SAFC which one of those you have and it knows how much of a change to make for any changes you make in the settings (+/- air flow signal) Raising the signal to the ecu ADDS MORE FUEL, and LOWERING TAKES AWAY FUEL!!! Larger injectors (550cc) dont need to open 80% to supply the same amount of fuel as a smaller one (450cc) does at 80%. Since there is a, what 19% increase (think thats right) going from 450 to 550 you turn the SAFC DOWN 19% across the board (which means the 550 is only opening 61% but still supplying what the 450 did at 80%), but all that does is get you back to the stock fuel curve. Now, this is fine if you have something else to tune your car with. Its actually very good because you have allowed your computer to see 19% more air and (roughly) moved your ceiling on your ability to make power up 19% (really only 17 or 18% due to volumetric efficiency being 90-95%). In other words, since your computer can only understand the MAF up to a certain voltage you have now decreased the base voltage, while supplying the same amount of fuel and making the same power and allowed more room for improvement.
that is nice, kinda like exactly what i said, so how could i be wrong? you even mentioned other injectors in there... but what happens when you hit max duty cycle on the stock injector? you run lean, which can be seen on the pocketlogger. ok so adjust. but where? oh, back to about the stock settings, or about there. and the ECU does a very good job abou that point, and if you had a DSM you would know this.
Ok, well actually now that i think about it, if it were me i would probably get a data logger too. I forget that you guys have computer controlled ignition and not a distributer, in fact, i have the only DSM with a disributer, so oops. However, that said you could still tune your car with the data logger and the SAFC. And I still say a wide band is very important, but i guess you can go to a dyno and use their wideband.
sorry bud, but first off you don't have a DSM...
i'm not trying to bash ya or anything, just trying to make sense of it for the others in here.
turboing a NT is a huge task. and since you have a wideband and a way to tune [MAFt] you are in the right place to start.
when i'm not touching my SAFC, i'm driving, making the pulls with Roy from RRE doing the tuning. i'm sorry, but when there is a tried and tested expert that will tune for free, i'm in the other seat. i could do it myself, but why not leave it to the experts?
this can go on and on forever, so here is the easiest:
******************************************
you make more air.
you need more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [pump, FPR]
the DSM ECU woks great untill you make even more air.
you need even more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [injectors]
you get something to 'control' your ECU to see less air to make more fuel [MAFt, SAFC, DSMlink] or a standalone like AEM EMS
you tune it so that you are making the most air and fuel and not knocking.
******************************************
~~~tuning in a nutshell~~~
97_3clipse
12-14-2004, 10:39 PM
lets see, they started making eclipse's in 89 for the 90 model , i think distributers were not a common thing to have on a car from the 90+ from the factory on any make. there for were did you get a DSM with a distibuter ?
*correct me if i'm wrong*
*correct me if i'm wrong*
1stGenRocks
12-14-2004, 11:06 PM
the 1.8 liter t/e/l have a distributor. and some cars still come with a distributor by the way. the newest i can think of off the top of my head is a 99 toyota carolla
george536
01-18-2005, 01:50 AM
Wow, read this whole thing and me mad. Damn. Im a little more knowledgable about tuning now that ive read through this and will end up like metalhedskater and want to get to about 350hp if i can. And gonna take the safc2 and logger route. But i wanna kinda avoid it as much as i can.
Ok want to get as much out of the t25 as i can. then switch over to a b16g.
got:
-hard pipe
-*greddy type s
-*upper and lower piping
-*MBC from dejontool
-boost and a/f gauges
*=have but need to be put on
Gonna get downpipe, o2 housing, and different manifold at the same time while im in there.
then gonna get a FMIC
then get the safc2 and logger w/my fuel pump and injectors
AND finally my B16g
Want to know if im on the right path.just want to know if the order wont mess nothing up.
Also want to know what kind of size injectors and pump should i get for my plans?
Or can i get the B16g with fuel pump upgrade and injectors before the safc and logger? and be ok?
Sorry but still learning about upgrades and want to know as much as i can before i go slapping on different turbos.
Ok want to get as much out of the t25 as i can. then switch over to a b16g.
got:
-hard pipe
-*greddy type s
-*upper and lower piping
-*MBC from dejontool
-boost and a/f gauges
*=have but need to be put on
Gonna get downpipe, o2 housing, and different manifold at the same time while im in there.
then gonna get a FMIC
then get the safc2 and logger w/my fuel pump and injectors
AND finally my B16g
Want to know if im on the right path.just want to know if the order wont mess nothing up.
Also want to know what kind of size injectors and pump should i get for my plans?
Or can i get the B16g with fuel pump upgrade and injectors before the safc and logger? and be ok?
Sorry but still learning about upgrades and want to know as much as i can before i go slapping on different turbos.
joemathews
01-18-2005, 02:12 AM
You need an SAFC to run bigger injectors, so that option is out. You can put on the bigger turbo and just run low boost on your stock fuel system if you want...
You seem to be in a similar boat as me in terms of your power goals. I wanted to hit 12s. Jake assures me he thinks my car is in the 12s now, but I think it might be low 13s.
I went with a 190 lph pump and 560cc evo8 injectors, as you probably know by now. That should be fine to support 300-320 hp on pump, and up to 350 on race gas. If you want 350 hp on pump, you should be buying 660s, and probably a 255 lph pump. It will end up costing more, but it is a safer route to 350 whp on pump gas.
Somthing I might add is that if you want 350hp on pump, you might look into one of the T04 turbos sold by Bullseye performance--especially if you're going to buy your b16g new. It will cost you probably $200-300 more all told, but you will have a turbo that can run 350+hp on pump gas, depending on supporting mods.
You seem to be in a similar boat as me in terms of your power goals. I wanted to hit 12s. Jake assures me he thinks my car is in the 12s now, but I think it might be low 13s.
I went with a 190 lph pump and 560cc evo8 injectors, as you probably know by now. That should be fine to support 300-320 hp on pump, and up to 350 on race gas. If you want 350 hp on pump, you should be buying 660s, and probably a 255 lph pump. It will end up costing more, but it is a safer route to 350 whp on pump gas.
Somthing I might add is that if you want 350hp on pump, you might look into one of the T04 turbos sold by Bullseye performance--especially if you're going to buy your b16g new. It will cost you probably $200-300 more all told, but you will have a turbo that can run 350+hp on pump gas, depending on supporting mods.
george536
01-18-2005, 02:25 AM
You need an SAFC to run bigger injectors, so that option is out. You can put on the bigger turbo and just run low boost on your stock fuel system if you want...
Ok so i can i put on the b16g without fuel upgrades and run about what in boost? thats safe
I went with a 190 lph pump and 560cc evo8 injectors, as you probably know by now. That should be fine to support 300-320 hp on pump, and up to 350 on race gas. If you want 350 hp on pump, you should be buying 660s, and probably a 255 lph pump. It will end up costing more, but it is a safer route to 350 whp on pump gas.
No 320hp on pump gas sounds ok to me especially because i got wrong wheel drive if i had AWD i would be looking at higher. So when i do get my fuel upgrade if i get your fuel setup and safc2 and logger ill be ok?
Also what is the difference between the safc and safc2?
Ok so i can i put on the b16g without fuel upgrades and run about what in boost? thats safe
I went with a 190 lph pump and 560cc evo8 injectors, as you probably know by now. That should be fine to support 300-320 hp on pump, and up to 350 on race gas. If you want 350 hp on pump, you should be buying 660s, and probably a 255 lph pump. It will end up costing more, but it is a safer route to 350 whp on pump gas.
No 320hp on pump gas sounds ok to me especially because i got wrong wheel drive if i had AWD i would be looking at higher. So when i do get my fuel upgrade if i get your fuel setup and safc2 and logger ill be ok?
Also what is the difference between the safc and safc2?
JoeWagon
01-18-2005, 03:03 AM
there is a 5 knob old school AFC and a new display one. I wouldn't spend too much time on trying to get anything out of a T25 if you have a big 16g in the plan. I'm not a fan of the bullseye turbos because I can't figure out what the hell turbo you are getting. Did I miss you saying you have a catback exhaust? that's more important than the o2 housing or manifold, both of which don't really need to be replaced. o2 housing can be ported, as can the manifold. 2g manifolds have gone 10s, and Forced Performance 3065 (600+hp turbos) use a stock manifold instead of a T3 tubular, what does that say?
george536
01-18-2005, 03:24 AM
i have a cat back exhaust already. My plans are for a b16g. o2 housing and manifold will be ported then if you think that would be enough for me. downpipe will be in the mail hopefully next week. size pref for me will be 2.5" or should i get 3"?
JoeWagon
01-18-2005, 04:34 AM
3'' if that's your catback size, but chances are the downpipe will be 2.5'' before the flex, which is fine since the o2 isn't larger than that.
WankelTII
01-19-2005, 03:13 AM
good thing you are not going to get bigger injectors so that you won't blow your engine. nice thing to know. that is a great limiter.
that is nice, kinda like exactly what i said, so how could i be wrong? you even mentioned other injectors in there... but what happens when you hit max duty cycle on the stock injector? you run lean, which can be seen on the pocketlogger. ok so adjust. but where? oh, back to about the stock settings, or about there. and the ECU does a very good job abou that point, and if you had a DSM you would know this.
sorry bud, but first off you don't have a DSM...
i'm not trying to bash ya or anything, just trying to make sense of it for the others in here.
turboing a NT is a huge task. and since you have a wideband and a way to tune [MAFt] you are in the right place to start.
when i'm not touching my SAFC, i'm driving, making the pulls with Roy from RRE doing the tuning. i'm sorry, but when there is a tried and tested expert that will tune for free, i'm in the other seat. i could do it myself, but why not leave it to the experts?
this can go on and on forever, so here is the easiest:
******************************************
you make more air.
you need more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [pump, FPR]
the DSM ECU woks great untill you make even more air.
you need even more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [injectors]
you get something to 'control' your ECU to see less air to make more fuel [MAFt, SAFC, DSMlink] or a standalone like AEM EMS
you tune it so that you are making the most air and fuel and not knocking.
******************************************
~~~tuning in a nutshell~~~
Ok, WELLLL, i havent been on here in a while, but i DO have a DSM, its a 1992 1.8liter eclipse to be exact. I did upgrade to 450cc injectors using an MAFt to correct the air flow signal to the ecu. You cannot tune a car perfectly without a wide band because nothing else will give you an accurate air/fuel reading. Knock sensors are great, but it is much safer to tune with a combination of knock sensors and a wide band, and you can use an SAFC or MAFt to tune your car fairly accurately. And yes you are right, often you cant tune a car using an SAFC with stock injectors because either the injectors are open 80% or more at WOT or the computer cant understand air flow signals much higher than what it would be seeing at WOT with stock injectors. Im glad you think you taught me something.
that is nice, kinda like exactly what i said, so how could i be wrong? you even mentioned other injectors in there... but what happens when you hit max duty cycle on the stock injector? you run lean, which can be seen on the pocketlogger. ok so adjust. but where? oh, back to about the stock settings, or about there. and the ECU does a very good job abou that point, and if you had a DSM you would know this.
sorry bud, but first off you don't have a DSM...
i'm not trying to bash ya or anything, just trying to make sense of it for the others in here.
turboing a NT is a huge task. and since you have a wideband and a way to tune [MAFt] you are in the right place to start.
when i'm not touching my SAFC, i'm driving, making the pulls with Roy from RRE doing the tuning. i'm sorry, but when there is a tried and tested expert that will tune for free, i'm in the other seat. i could do it myself, but why not leave it to the experts?
this can go on and on forever, so here is the easiest:
******************************************
you make more air.
you need more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [pump, FPR]
the DSM ECU woks great untill you make even more air.
you need even more fuel.
you mod your fuel system [injectors]
you get something to 'control' your ECU to see less air to make more fuel [MAFt, SAFC, DSMlink] or a standalone like AEM EMS
you tune it so that you are making the most air and fuel and not knocking.
******************************************
~~~tuning in a nutshell~~~
Ok, WELLLL, i havent been on here in a while, but i DO have a DSM, its a 1992 1.8liter eclipse to be exact. I did upgrade to 450cc injectors using an MAFt to correct the air flow signal to the ecu. You cannot tune a car perfectly without a wide band because nothing else will give you an accurate air/fuel reading. Knock sensors are great, but it is much safer to tune with a combination of knock sensors and a wide band, and you can use an SAFC or MAFt to tune your car fairly accurately. And yes you are right, often you cant tune a car using an SAFC with stock injectors because either the injectors are open 80% or more at WOT or the computer cant understand air flow signals much higher than what it would be seeing at WOT with stock injectors. Im glad you think you taught me something.
kjewer1
01-19-2005, 10:36 AM
Ran some quick numbers guys, since we should all know now that fuel requirements correlate directly with airflow. These are for 560 injectors, a fairly "new" size, so I thought it would be fun to take a look.
Using pump gas (assumed Specific Gravity of .76) and target AFR of 11:1, a common pump gas AFR, 560s will support 41 lbs/min. More than small/big 16Gs put out, and just about on par with what most poeple get out of EVO 16Gs.
Same scenario on race gas (sunoco NOS Supreme 117 octane assumed, Specific Gravity of .724), and target AFR of 12:1, 43 lbs/min.
Notice that the numbers are not all that different. The reason is that while you are using less fuel at the leaner 12:1 AFR, you are also getting less mass of fuel per unit volume since the Specific Gravity (Density expressed as a ratio to water) is lower ;) Keeping fuel constant, you can see how much leaning out helps with getting more out of your injector (and pump). At 12.5:1 you're good to 45 lbs/min, 20G territory. And so on...
Using pump gas (assumed Specific Gravity of .76) and target AFR of 11:1, a common pump gas AFR, 560s will support 41 lbs/min. More than small/big 16Gs put out, and just about on par with what most poeple get out of EVO 16Gs.
Same scenario on race gas (sunoco NOS Supreme 117 octane assumed, Specific Gravity of .724), and target AFR of 12:1, 43 lbs/min.
Notice that the numbers are not all that different. The reason is that while you are using less fuel at the leaner 12:1 AFR, you are also getting less mass of fuel per unit volume since the Specific Gravity (Density expressed as a ratio to water) is lower ;) Keeping fuel constant, you can see how much leaning out helps with getting more out of your injector (and pump). At 12.5:1 you're good to 45 lbs/min, 20G territory. And so on...
joemathews
01-20-2005, 02:06 AM
I knew Evo8 injectors and EvoIII 16g had to be a good match :p
Thanks for the added insight, Kevin (and for crunching the numbers ;))
Thanks for the added insight, Kevin (and for crunching the numbers ;))
george536
01-20-2005, 02:24 AM
Hey has anyone had experience with the FPBigT28? i was reading on dsmtuners. It seems the more i read the more undecided i become on what to get. they said that that turbo is not a big difference from the 16g.
kjewer1
01-20-2005, 05:11 AM
Ok, WELLLL, i havent been on here in a while, but i DO have a DSM, its a 1992 1.8liter eclipse to be exact. I did upgrade to 450cc injectors using an MAFt to correct the air flow signal to the ecu. You cannot tune a car perfectly without a wide band because nothing else will give you an accurate air/fuel reading. Knock sensors are great, but it is much safer to tune with a combination of knock sensors and a wide band, and you can use an SAFC or MAFt to tune your car fairly accurately. And yes you are right, often you cant tune a car using an SAFC with stock injectors because either the injectors are open 80% or more at WOT or the computer cant understand air flow signals much higher than what it would be seeing at WOT with stock injectors. Im glad you think you taught me something.
I wouldnt say you can't tune correctly without a wideband ;) I ran well into the 11s without one, and others have gone much faster obviously. Let say you have a wideband, and you can now tune for a specific AFR. What AFR do you tune for? The one that makes the most power or the fastest trap speeds ;) Its just another "guage." There is no magic AFR number that you have to tune for to make the most power. Its still all one big variable. BUT, I Will say that after running with a wideband I Will never tune without one again. The main reason is that it is just another check that my settings are correct. DSMlink provides a calculated AFR based on injector size, your global, WOT, and dead time settings, and the specific gravity of the fuel you are using, based on airflow per rev. Its really just an "estimate," but its what your AFR SHOULD be if everything is working corrrectly. I can log that and compare it to my wideband, which I also log via the ECUs MDP input (no longer using that sensor). Lets say calculated AFR is 11:1, but the wideband is giving me 10.5:1. Almost always a boost leak. ;) You can find all kinds of problems with this. Injectors not flowing what they should, fuel pressure is off, pump is running out of steam, etc. Check out www.posracing.net/AFR.htm (or html, whatever works), and you can see jpegs of the logs showing this data and outlining how I figured it meant the fuel pump was too small costing me that motor. You can also go to www.dsmlink.com and dowload the program for free, then open the 2 logs I provided there. You can look at the exact same data I'm looking at, the second run was the 11.3 at 126. At any rate, the wideband is helpful for sure, but not at all required.
I agree that knock alone can be tough to tune by, and knock sensor plus WBO2 is best, but you still need some measure of performance, either a dyno or a track.
I don't understand your statement however about stock injectors and airflow. The ECU can certainly "understand" airflow signals at much higher levels than stock injectors can support. I've more than doubled that point now. Unless you suspect this is something specific to the NT ECU. Your first suggestion about injector duty cycles is correct of course. You can use an AFC, DSMlink, or whatever you want, but you cant make an injector flow more than it is capable of. I've run injectors well over 100%, and I dont recomend it. 80% is a good number, but unfortunately even on 950s, I've gone over that. There is a spreadsheet that does all of this math automatically at the bottom of that page I linked to above. It can be used to calculate duty cycles at a given airflow level, since it assumes 100% IDC. But thats another long story...
I wouldnt say you can't tune correctly without a wideband ;) I ran well into the 11s without one, and others have gone much faster obviously. Let say you have a wideband, and you can now tune for a specific AFR. What AFR do you tune for? The one that makes the most power or the fastest trap speeds ;) Its just another "guage." There is no magic AFR number that you have to tune for to make the most power. Its still all one big variable. BUT, I Will say that after running with a wideband I Will never tune without one again. The main reason is that it is just another check that my settings are correct. DSMlink provides a calculated AFR based on injector size, your global, WOT, and dead time settings, and the specific gravity of the fuel you are using, based on airflow per rev. Its really just an "estimate," but its what your AFR SHOULD be if everything is working corrrectly. I can log that and compare it to my wideband, which I also log via the ECUs MDP input (no longer using that sensor). Lets say calculated AFR is 11:1, but the wideband is giving me 10.5:1. Almost always a boost leak. ;) You can find all kinds of problems with this. Injectors not flowing what they should, fuel pressure is off, pump is running out of steam, etc. Check out www.posracing.net/AFR.htm (or html, whatever works), and you can see jpegs of the logs showing this data and outlining how I figured it meant the fuel pump was too small costing me that motor. You can also go to www.dsmlink.com and dowload the program for free, then open the 2 logs I provided there. You can look at the exact same data I'm looking at, the second run was the 11.3 at 126. At any rate, the wideband is helpful for sure, but not at all required.
I agree that knock alone can be tough to tune by, and knock sensor plus WBO2 is best, but you still need some measure of performance, either a dyno or a track.
I don't understand your statement however about stock injectors and airflow. The ECU can certainly "understand" airflow signals at much higher levels than stock injectors can support. I've more than doubled that point now. Unless you suspect this is something specific to the NT ECU. Your first suggestion about injector duty cycles is correct of course. You can use an AFC, DSMlink, or whatever you want, but you cant make an injector flow more than it is capable of. I've run injectors well over 100%, and I dont recomend it. 80% is a good number, but unfortunately even on 950s, I've gone over that. There is a spreadsheet that does all of this math automatically at the bottom of that page I linked to above. It can be used to calculate duty cycles at a given airflow level, since it assumes 100% IDC. But thats another long story...
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