GRRRRR 171 & 174 AGAIN

Okay I have a 99 windstar 3.8L...I took it into the mechanic 3 weeks ago, told him about the TSB mentioned here. In their diagnostics they felt it was the MAF sensor. They cleaned that up, did a full tune up (it was time for that) and fuel injector cleaning. I don't think he ever looked up the TSB. At any rate a week later boom the light came back on! Now I did put gas in the day before not sure if that has anything to do with anything but it does start to show a pattern. Let me go on.... Took the car back in same codes again I mention the TSB but couldn't remember the number but did remember it had to do with a vacuum leak issue. So the mechanic begins to research with me there. He finds a TSB regarding that the PCM needs to be recalibrated figures that must be the problem. SO he takes it to ford and has it recalibarted. Ligt is off, put gas in 2 days after still light off. That was a week ago Tues. This week I put gas in yesterday boom light comes on first thing this morning.
Now the reason I bring up the gas and when I put in the gas is I have read somewhere something about a problem with the gas cap seal. Is that right? I know it probably is the TSB issue BUT on the off chance it is something else could it be a gas cap problem? Just grasping at straws here because we have NO more money to put into this car right now. 2 months ago we had to replace the power steering gear to the tune of $600 plus $600 for the full tune up and $80 for recalibrating the PCM. We are tapped out.
Another question regarding the 3-16-1 TSB why does it cost so much? Is it just expensive if it is done at the ford dealership? If parts are about $100 (that is what I have read) and labor at my mechanic is $65.00 per hour and from what I read it takes between 2-4 hrs.(depending on experience) to do the work that is about $360 at the high end. Just curious

My comments below are assuming that the check engine light is back and it has the same P0171/P0174 codes, if you don't know you need to find out.

First of all the recalibration was part of the original TSB that we pointed you to, why would he read that part and get it recalibrated (which merely keeps it from pinging with the added carbon deposits) without doing the steps in the TSB to fix the leak? The recalibration itself doesn't fix your problem.

The parts are cheap, the $100 includes a new valve cover, if you don't need that it will be less. Check with DRW1000, he's got the same codes and about to do the work, I'm sure he'll be posting some details from his work after he is done.

Sorry but the loose gas cap is not the cause of a P0171/P0174 error codes. Yes it can trigger the check engine light, but it will be different codes for an EVAP small leak.

I think at this point you need to consider a new mechanic, especially considering he has a very detailed TSB right in front of him with the solution that specifically states the following: "Do not replace PCM (Powertrain Control Module), MAF (Mass Air Flow), or HEGOs (Heated Oxygen Sensors), as these parts are not the root cause of the lean codes conditions described." In addition I shudder to think of giving someone $600 for a tuneup, not sure what that would entail other than changing the spark plugs, filters and putting in some fuel injector cleaner since everything else is computer controlled. I'd be very curious what you got for $600 other than inspecting items.

Lewisnc100 is correct I just got the codes last week and I will post any solutions as I get them. I need to rule out some other causes before I jump in to the TSB but I am fairly certain I have to do the TSB or at least some of it.

I too was very surprised that your mechanic read the TSB and decided that only the reprogramming portion was relevant. Perhaps you may wish to ask him or her.

The reson that the TSB fix costs so much is that there is more than $100 worth of parts and I think it could take up to 6 hours for the work. The parts asked for in the TSB are:

Valve cover
Isolator Bolts
Port Seals
Fuel Regulator hose.
Reprogramming of the PCM

Personally I am not going to bother with the valve cover or reprogramming. My fuel regulator hose appears to be fine. This leaves the seals and Isolator bolts. As I discussed in a different thread (but still very new thread) is that since I am doing the work myself I am planning to just replace the bolts. This amounts to about $80 Canadian and 2 hours of my time. I am gambling that the seals will be alright. It may work for a while, forever or not at all. If I then have to go back to do the seals then I will have to dissasemble more and thus I will have wasted 2 hours. (not too bad of a gamble I suppose).

If you are paying labour then you may have to consider it a bit differently. I do not know your mechanical ability buy you should be able to decide if you need the regulator hose or not. This is a $26 Cdn part and about 2 minutes of work. I don't know if I buy the valve cover reasoning and you have already done the PCM re-programming. The valve cover replacement and regulator hose are separate areas and parts of these jobs are not done when changing the bolts or seals. However the seals and bolts require a lot of common steps.

Hope this is helpful

I should add that I THINK there is more than $100 US in parts. The valve cover is $125 CDN by itself.

My comments below are assuming that the check engine light is back and it has the same P0171/P0174 codes, if you don't know you need to find out.

First of all the recalibration was part of the original TSB that we pointed you to, why would he read that part and get it recalibrated (which merely keeps it from pinging with the added carbon deposits) without doing the steps in the TSB to fix the leak? The recalibration itself doesn't fix your problem.

The parts are cheap, the $100 includes a new valve cover, if you don't need that it will be less. Check with DRW1000, he's got the same codes and about to do the work, I'm sure he'll be posting some details from his work after he is done.

Sorry but the loose gas cap is not the cause of a P0171/P0174 error codes. Yes it can trigger the check engine light, but it will be different codes for an EVAP small leak.

I think at this point you need to consider a new mechanic, especially considering he has a very detailed TSB right in front of him with the solution that specifically states the following: "Do not replace PCM (Powertrain Control Module), MAF (Mass Air Flow), or HEGOs (Heated Oxygen Sensors), as these parts are not the root cause of the lean codes conditions described." In addition I shudder to think of giving someone $600 for a tuneup, not sure what that would entail other than changing the spark plugs, filters and putting in some fuel injector cleaner since everything else is computer controlled. I'd be very curious what you got for $600 other than inspecting items.

Let me clear something up. My mechanic never saw 3-16-1 TSB he found an different TSB that addressed the PCM recalibation. He gave me the print out of the TSB but I can't seem to find it but it was different. I told him about the 3-16-1 over the phone but at the time didn't have the number of the TSB and just had a laundry list of the parts needed.
The $600 tune up was more than a basic tune up it included radiator flush and tranny flush along with fuel injector cleaning and the MAF sensor.
I take the car back on Monday morning. I want to go in with all the info. I can find on this. Does any one have the TSB that I can print out and take in? I don't want any shot gunning any more but at the same time I don't want to over look any obvious cheaper problems and assume it to be the mentioned tsb problem.

Forget to mention....The van runs fairly well but still pings some. Not as bad as before the tune up but still get some pinging. I am using plus gas and not regular to keep the ping down. I would imagine regular unleaded would cause more ping? It has a bit more get up and go pre-tune up too. I don't know if any of that makes a difference in diagnosis or not.

When we get both codes, P0171/P0174, it's a good practice to watch carefully for coolant losses. If you notice a coolant loss, or a change in the appearance of the coolant, be on guard concerning a leaking lower manifold gasket.

If not corrected, coolant leakage into the combustion chamber or crank case can cause a lot of grief!

My mechanic never saw 3-16-1 TSB he found an different TSB that addressed the PCM recalibation.

Just found it surprising that he didn't zero in on the 3-16-1 TSB when the title of the TSB is "Engine Controls/Fuel System - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174", can't get much easier to find than that when he read the P0171/P0174 codes.

The valve cover price has gotten more expensive this year but I got mine at 1stfordparts.com for $49 including shipping. Dealer wanted $60.

Goldlexus,

I have a copy of the TSB that we have been discussing. Will be happy to forward it

Thanks that would be great. PM my email addy to you. Thank you!

Please remember to check for other causes of coolant loss.
I was concerned about my head gasket when I was losing a slight amount of coolant over time......and could see no signs of leakage.
The Windstar is known to leak coolant from the timing chain cover.....I was told that it is a $1200 repair..... A simple repair except for step #1 in the instructions "Remove Engine".
My leak was basically a seapage.....not enough to even put a drop on the ground. I put some stop leak into the coolant to deal with it.

For pinging, perhaps trying different brands of gasoline is worth a try.
I would seriously doubt that gasoline brand will have anything to do with your fault code though.

Yes, I know gasoline brands wouldn't cause the codes. I have only used 2 different brands of gas in my car. Union 76 & Chevron. The ping seems to be less with the Chevron brand gas. I never go to the cheap no name places associated with convience stores.
The ping drives me nuts and had hoped with the tune up it would have gone away. It is MUCH better than it was. It comes and goes oddly enough. Somedays maybe just a second or two of pinging on accleration on others I have to let up on the gas for it to stop.
Do some cars just ping and that is just the way it is? My pinto use to ping like the dickens never could get it to stop. Must not have hurt it any that car kept running for years and years past what would be expected. I finally sold it to my brother (can you just tell how much I love him) he drove it for several years than he sold it to a friend. It finally died a couple of years after that. Pintos were often the butt of jokes but this pinto was great. Sure it couldn't get out of its own way but it got me where I needed to go.

Is the pinging due to pre-ignition? As far as I am aware there is a knock sensor. If your are getting knocking due to pre-ignition it should set a code.

Someone please feel free to agree or disagree.

Is the pinging due to pre-ignition? As far as I am aware there is a knock sensor. If your are getting knocking due to pre-ignition it should set a code.

Someone please feel free to agree or disagree.

I think so. Only codes we are getting are the 171/174 codes which is a lean code. Don't you get ping if the engine is running too lean? Which brings me to another question with the TSB is that fixing a false code 171/174 or does it fix the cause of a car running lean?
One other question that is floating around in my mind is, is there a way to diagnosis if all or any of the parts mentioned in the TSB absolutely NEED to be replaced? I don't want to have some work done on my van of this expense on are a 'odds are diagnosis'. Yes this is a known flaw with Windstar engines BUT do ALL windstar suffer from it? If not how can I find out whether or not my windstar does or not? I am admittedly learning as I go. I am not a mechanic at all just a consumer that researches everything before walking into a mechanics a taking their word as gospel.

Goldlexus- as far as I know the lean code thing is predominantly a 1999-2003 3.8L thing. The plastic "barrel" upper intake is a pretty crappy design prone to seal leakage. However you do *usually* get some performance issues along with the lean codes. Your vacuum leak may be so subtle, you dont feel it. I've also heard that you can get vacuum leaks at the intake manifold runner control shafts, due to worn bushings. You could try to slop the bushing areas up with heavy grease to see if that makes the codes go away.
G/luck
Joel

GoldLexus,

You are wise to eliminate other causes first. In fact I am also doing the same thing.

The fix, TSB......, fixes the intake leak that can cause the 171/174 codes. Basically the TSB addresses 5 items:

1)Valve cover - apperently there is a hole in the splash shield under the PCV valve that allows oil to get past the PCV valve and into the intake. The oil weakens and breaks down the rubber bushings on the bolts that hold the upper intake to the lower. When this rubber breaks down, air can get in and thus cause an intake leak. The oil also causes the EGR ports to become clogged. There is 1 per cylinder and they are about 1/8" in diameter. I do not feel this valve cover change is really required. In fact I was thinking of plugging the hole with a rivet or something if need be. This would require me to take off the valve cover but not purchase a new one.

2) fuel line regulator hose- This is an inverted U shaped hose that routes between the intake mnifold and the fuel line. Oil in the intake can cause this to become loose and thus introduce a leak into the intake. One should be able to try and pull it off to determine if it is causing the problem or contributing to it. It too can be done indepemdently of the other partsof the TSB.

3) Repalcing the bolts. The bolts and their rubber bushings have been re-designed. Pressumably to resist oil breakdown. This is most likely the cause of the air leak. Apperently it affects virtually all 99-03 at one time or another. This requires the upper intake to be removed for access. this is also the time to clean the EGR ports as they are accessable at this time.

4) The port seals- These are the seals between the lower-upper and the lower intake manifolds. This is where the air enters when the bolts breakdown. The time to change them is when doing the bolts as the bolts takes you halfway there. My opinion is that these seals could still be good. Unfortunately it needs to be dissasembled to check. I am planning on gambling and if I have to at a later date go back and change them I will. Of course this is only truley feasible if you are doing the work yourself.

5) Reprogramming of PCM - I am not planning to do this and I am not sure what it is for.

There are some ideas discussed in this thread to try and pinpoint whether or not you actually have these failures. I think Lewis100nc made a good suggestion about pushing down on the intake manifold to see if it allows the engine to run smoother (by temporarilly sealing the ports). Unfortunately my vehicle is running okay and this will not help me yet. I just have the codes. If it wasn't for OBD11 I would not even suspect I had a problem. Rodeo also suggests some other things that can cause the codes and so did 12Ounce.

Good luck

I did read too much about p0174 code but I missed the whole point : What if you DO NOT fix that. After all, it runs with more air (cheaper) than gas. Unless you're mister perfect to have a perfect car what harm can this thing do to the engine on long term (except less performance - how bad can it become?)? For me, this seems rather a way for Ford/dealers to make money than a serious issue ($600!!!!!).
P.S. I do have a 2000 Windstar 3.8L and I just got the code yesterday but car runs fine.

Well it illuminates the CEL so there is a potential emissions problem.

I doubt it will cause emmisions testing failure but your vehicle is not running as "tuned" as it should be. If running it lean increased gas milage with not side effects then it would come that way from the factory. (all manufacturers need to meet MPG minimums). This is the whole reason they recommend 5W20 for oil instead of 5W30.

I would think you would get performance affects and I am not an expert but I beleieve lean can cause overheating to the catalytic converters too.

I did read too much about p0174 code but I missed the whole point : What if you DO NOT fix that. After all, it runs with more air (cheaper) than gas. Unless you're mister perfect to have a perfect car what harm can this thing do to the engine on long term (except less performance - how bad can it become?)? For me, this seems rather a way for Ford/dealers to make money than a serious issue ($600!!!!!).
P.S. I do have a 2000 Windstar 3.8L and I just got the code yesterday but car runs fine.

I was wondering the samething. What happens if we don't fix it. We have had this code for a long time and haven't suffered much performance loss until the last couple of months. We had a tune up done and now performance isn't an issue. Our biggest problem is here in Oreong we have DEQ testing every other year to renew our registration. They will not test a car that has any CEL on. Our car will pass the emission test (our mechanic tested it) but DEQ wont pass it until the light is out. We have to get new tags in Dec.

Thanks DRW1000, you have given me a lot of good info. that I can take with me to the mechanic on Monday! With this info. we can try to come up with a 'game plan' to try to fix this. Will let you know how it all comes out.

Goldlexus, I think this thread is missing a big point, you are trying to connect your pinging as a result of the lean codes you are getting. They are not the cause of the other but both results of the main problem in the 99-03 Windstars.

Problem - excessive oil pickup via the PCV line into the upper intake

Resulting conditions

1 Bolt seals absorb oil and loosen resulting in air leak and P0171/P0174 codes

2 Fuel pressure regulator vacuum line loosens on intake manifold due to oil and results in air leak and P0171/P0174 codes

3 Oil clogs EGR ports resulting in rough running and eventual misfire

4 Oil pickup eventually results in carbon deposits and pinging, the PCM reprogram apparently retards the timing in specific situations reducing pinging



What can you do about this? Replace valve cover with redesign to reduce oil pickup. Remove upper intake and replace seals, bolts and clean EGR ports. Replace fuel pressure regulator vacuum line if loose. Run some Seafoam or similar to clean carbon deposits to reduce pinging. And finally get the specific reprogram in the TSB however this will most likely result in less performance and MPG.

Past posts have also listed filters on the PCV line to prevent the oil pickup, try a search for this solution.

Hope this helps with your discussions with your mechanic.

I just realized that i said the P0171/174 probably would not cause an emissions fail.

That may not be the case everywhere. Here in Ontario they changed the testing recently where they do not care if the CEL light is on or off or even if it works. They simply test the car. If it passes it passes. When the testing first came out they would fail for CEL not working, CEL on, leaking oil or other fluids.....

Now it just needs to pass the tailpipe test and the gas cap seal test.

...When the testing first came out they would fail for CEL not working, CEL on....

That's where we are at in the Buffalo area :uhoh: . No tailpipe test yet, but I'm sure that will be here soon as well.

Joel

That's where we are at in the Buffalo area :uhoh: . No tailpipe test yet, but I'm sure that will be here soon as well.

Joel

Hmmm here in Oregon they dumped the tailpipe test for newer cars. DEQ here uses a computer test that plugs in to the same port as the code readers. It's software doesn't read everything a code reader reads just all the emissions things.

Have you tried looking for vacuum leaks. I got the same codes and did the o2 sensor replace, which did nothing. Ultimately I heard a hissing sound from the engine.Check out the boot on the PCV line going into the intake manifold. There could be a small hole developing in the boot. If it is the boot, good luck finding a replacement. The dealership told me to use a spark plug boot. I ended up using a piece of heater hose. I was the second person in there that day looking for the same part.

BTW I was able to return the o2 sensors (even though used) to Adv Auto. They were the ones that told me that was the problem.

I also had the vacuum leak in the PCV hose elbow on top of the intake manifold.....a little crack on the inside of the elbow.

I bought a elbow at Autozone..... In the "Help" group of parts....You just need an elbow of the same inside diameter......

Vacuum leaks will send you searching all over.
Problem with getting more air in after the MAF sensor is that the computer does not know about it....which can cause a lot of problems that you would not expect it to.

Cheap and simple......ONCE YOU FIND IT.

Is worth poking around to see if this is happening.

Well.......the mechanic has had my car a week and called today. No it didn't take him week to diagnosis the problem just a really busy week and he (the owner of the garage) couldn't get to it until last night after hours. Anyway, I gave him the TSB for the codes; he spent a few hours trying to disprove the TSB plus called Ford and has found that, yes, we need the new gaskets and bolts PLUS a new intake manifold. There is a TSB out on the intake manifolds being a faulty design too. Now our intake manifold is fine BUT Ford said that they suggest replacing the intake manifold. They have found that when only the gaskest and bolts are done that those same cars come back within 6 month to a year with a bad intake manifold. So it is suggested to replace that. We are going to do it. It is either pay now or pay more later. The bottom line is $1000.00. Does that sound right?

My dad had the 171/ 174 come up for some time. He took it to his guy. The changed the air filter, and an O2 sensor or 2 and cleaned the air intake manifold with cleaner followed by fuel injection cleaner. The light has not come on in months. Was also advised by another mechanic that a vacuum hose may of cracked causing the lean mixture code in the pcm.

Goldlexus, you sure they weren't talking about changing the valve cover instead of the intake manifold. The LH valve cover is a known bad design and is advised to be replaced as part of the TSB, never heard anything about the intake manifold needing to be replaced.

Goldlexus, you sure they weren't talking about changing the valve cover instead of the intake manifold. The LH valve cover is a known bad design and is advised to be replaced as part of the TSB, never heard anything about the intake manifold needing to be replaced.

I am positive that the intake manifold was replaced. I saw the old intake manifold, I do know what a valve cover is (the black cover on top) and a intake manifold. I was looking at the manifold when he showed it to me. The menchanic checked out the Valve cover and there are no signs of any leaking so he chose not to replace it. He did contact Ford about the TSB regarding the gaskets and isolator bolts to learn more about it, in talking with them they said they strongly suggest replacing the intake manifold with the new design. The new manifold has a new design regarding the 'butterfly' openings on the manifold and the black box like thing that is attached to the manifold. I am sorry I am not a mechanic so my description is lacking the technical terms. Anyway, Ford was saying that they have performed the vacuum/gasket leak TSB on many cars and within a year or less those same cars came back and need the manifold replaced with the new one. So now they are doing the vacuum/gasket TSB in addition to the manifold and none of those cars are returning with the 171/174 codes.
We had the choice to just do the bare minium or replace it all. Being as we have been fighting this for a long time we opted to do it all.
The manifold cost was $579, all the gaskets, port seals and isolator bolts were $180 and labor was $250.00.
I have a feeling the replacing the intake manifold is new issue with the same codes. Don't know for sure, I thought my mechanic said that the manifold replacement was a different TSB for the 171/174 codes. I could be mistaken tho'.
Anyway, my van has never ran better! Start up in the morning is really smooth and the get up and go is very noticable.

Wow, that's the first I've heard about replacing the full upper intake, $579 for a plastic clam shell. Whadda racket :headshake .
G/luck
Joel

Didn't know you were looking over your mechanic's shoulder, but I'm still confused by your post. The upper intake manifold is only a $150 part for the black plastic clamshell that sits on top. The lower intake is more like $500 but I'm confused why that would be involved, maybe 12ounce or ModMech can jump in. There are no TSBs out there for a new lower intake manifold design, any chance you got a Ford item#?

The LH valve cover doesn't leak to the outside so your mechanic would not notice a leak, but has an internal hole in the baffle plate that allows excess oil to be picked up via the PCV line to the intake. With the new bolts you shouldn't get a leak again but your EGR ports will clog up more quickly than with the new valve cover design. It's just strange to me that your mechanic does a repair for $1000 but doesn't swap the $50 part that is the root cause of the excessive oil. I doubt going to the new design eliminates the oil pickup, but anything that will extend the time to clean the EGR ports would be worth it.

I am positive that the intake manifold was replaced. I saw the old intake manifold, I do know what a valve cover is (the black cover on top) and a intake manifold.

I too am confused.

The black cover on top is the intake (upper intake at that). The valve cover is aluminium and to the sides. (at least I don't believe it is black in colour).

The original bad design valve cover was black, the new design is silver aluminum. This picture shows the new design silver LH valve cover in the front and the black plastic upper intake manifold in the background.

http://groups.msn.com/FordWindstar/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=24

Didn't know you were looking over your mechanic's shoulder, but I'm still confused by your post. The upper intake manifold is only a $150 part for the black plastic clamshell that sits on top. The lower intake is more like $500 but I'm confused why that would be involved, maybe 12ounce or ModMech can jump in. There are no TSBs out there for a new lower intake manifold design, any chance you got a Ford item#?

The LH valve cover doesn't leak to the outside so your mechanic would not notice a leak, but has an internal hole in the baffle plate that allows excess oil to be picked up via the PCV line to the intake. With the new bolts you shouldn't get a leak again but your EGR ports will clog up more quickly than with the new valve cover design. It's just strange to me that your mechanic does a repair for $1000 but doesn't swap the $50 part that is the root cause of the excessive oil. I doubt going to the new design eliminates the oil pickup, but anything that will extend the time to clean the EGR ports would be worth it.
It was the lower intake manifold. Not the plastic clamshell.
Here is a picture of what was replaced.
http://groups.msn.com/FordWindstar/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=22 The mechanic looked that the PCV and it was clean as a whistle no signs of problems.

It was the lower intake manifold..
Ahhh.. that makes sense ($579). I'm wondering if you had vacuum leaks around the IMRC throttle shaft bushings that prompted the replacement of the lower intake?
anyway... thanx for the clarification!

Joel

Goldlexus,

I have a copy of the TSB that we have been discussing. Will be happy to forward it


I just got the 171/174 codes of imminent trouble on my 2000 3.8, and am going through all the threads on the subject. DRW1000, would you mind sending me the TSB you mention? My email, for all the world to see, is [email protected].

Thanks!

Done......................and Done.

Good luck with your repair