New Summer Toy
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Moppie
07-19-2004, 01:27 AM
(Because the car is so poofy looking),.
You countered your own arguement right there.
The MX5 is not a sports car because it was never designed to be.
It was designed to be a cheap to buy, easy to use reliable convertable to sell to all the people who wanted a real sports car but either couldn't afford one, or who didn't want the downsides that go with owning a car like a Lotus Elan, or a Triumph TR, or an Alfa Romeo etc etc.
i.e. a car for all the posers in the world, a car that grabbed the 80s ideal of image is everything and substance is nothing and used it to sell cars.
As a piece of marketing and design it is a master piece, and no one else has been able to emulate the sales success of the MX5 with a similar model.
When new they were never marketed on thier performance, instead they were marketed on the lifestyle that owning one would imply, and how good they would make you look and feel.
The marketing was targeted at women, middle aged men having a mid life crisis, and gays, who like women at the end of the 80s were becoming very succesful and looking for something that showed off that success.
They were never marketed to performance enthusiasts, and they were never sold as "sports cars".
And they were never bought by people looking for a real sports or a performance car. For that Mazda had the RX7.
The MX5 is a lie, a symptom of all thats going wrong in your society, and a perfect example of the power marketing has over an ignorant population.
As for their potential to go fast, well any light weight car has lots of potential. Give me enough money and Ill make an old RWD starlet run faster laps than a Ferrari, but at the end of the day the starlet will be mix of compromises thanks to parts that were never designed to work together in a body that was never designed to take them, while the Ferrari will work in perfect harmony with itself, doing exactly what it was ment to do.
Although the MX5 has lots of potential (read my first post for an example) it was never ment to be a sports car (only look like one) and it was never ment to be fast. If you want a fast car then your better off buying one that was designed by the manufactor to be fast in the first place.
You countered your own arguement right there.
The MX5 is not a sports car because it was never designed to be.
It was designed to be a cheap to buy, easy to use reliable convertable to sell to all the people who wanted a real sports car but either couldn't afford one, or who didn't want the downsides that go with owning a car like a Lotus Elan, or a Triumph TR, or an Alfa Romeo etc etc.
i.e. a car for all the posers in the world, a car that grabbed the 80s ideal of image is everything and substance is nothing and used it to sell cars.
As a piece of marketing and design it is a master piece, and no one else has been able to emulate the sales success of the MX5 with a similar model.
When new they were never marketed on thier performance, instead they were marketed on the lifestyle that owning one would imply, and how good they would make you look and feel.
The marketing was targeted at women, middle aged men having a mid life crisis, and gays, who like women at the end of the 80s were becoming very succesful and looking for something that showed off that success.
They were never marketed to performance enthusiasts, and they were never sold as "sports cars".
And they were never bought by people looking for a real sports or a performance car. For that Mazda had the RX7.
The MX5 is a lie, a symptom of all thats going wrong in your society, and a perfect example of the power marketing has over an ignorant population.
As for their potential to go fast, well any light weight car has lots of potential. Give me enough money and Ill make an old RWD starlet run faster laps than a Ferrari, but at the end of the day the starlet will be mix of compromises thanks to parts that were never designed to work together in a body that was never designed to take them, while the Ferrari will work in perfect harmony with itself, doing exactly what it was ment to do.
Although the MX5 has lots of potential (read my first post for an example) it was never ment to be a sports car (only look like one) and it was never ment to be fast. If you want a fast car then your better off buying one that was designed by the manufactor to be fast in the first place.
EclipseRST
07-19-2004, 05:52 AM
The MX5 is not a sports car because it was never designed to be.
i some what agree with you but on the other hand... if its NOT a sports car then what is it?
i mean it is a:
2 door
2 seater
RWD
5spd (6spd option)
small and light
its basically what every other sports car is!!! except for small and light, which i bet a lot of people that have sports cars and race them probably wish their cars were... shit i wish my car was as light as that car... although it is really small, and name one other car besides the miata (and a truck - cause it's obviously not that!) that is a 2 seater and isnt a sports car! i definatly cant think of one...
i some what agree with you but on the other hand... if its NOT a sports car then what is it?
i mean it is a:
2 door
2 seater
RWD
5spd (6spd option)
small and light
its basically what every other sports car is!!! except for small and light, which i bet a lot of people that have sports cars and race them probably wish their cars were... shit i wish my car was as light as that car... although it is really small, and name one other car besides the miata (and a truck - cause it's obviously not that!) that is a 2 seater and isnt a sports car! i definatly cant think of one...
Jimster
07-19-2004, 06:03 AM
i some what agree with you but on the other hand... if its NOT a sports car then what is it?
i mean it is a:
2 door
2 seater
RWD
5spd (6spd option)
small and light
its basically what every other sports car is!!! except for small and light, which i bet a lot of people that have sports cars and race them probably wish their cars were... shit i wish my car was as light as that car... although it is really small, and name one other car besides the miata (and a truck - cause it's obviously not that!) that is a 2 seater and isnt a sports car! i definatly cant think of one...
Suzuki X90? Ugh, what a failure that was.
But the Smart is a two seater.
i mean it is a:
2 door
2 seater
RWD
5spd (6spd option)
small and light
its basically what every other sports car is!!! except for small and light, which i bet a lot of people that have sports cars and race them probably wish their cars were... shit i wish my car was as light as that car... although it is really small, and name one other car besides the miata (and a truck - cause it's obviously not that!) that is a 2 seater and isnt a sports car! i definatly cant think of one...
Suzuki X90? Ugh, what a failure that was.
But the Smart is a two seater.
Moppie
07-19-2004, 06:15 AM
Just because it fits a quantifiable describtion that fits many other sports cars, does not make the MX5 a sports car.
A sports car, IMO is a car designed for sports.
In this case Motorsports, and in the case of a road car, then its a car either designed for use as a week end race car e.g. a Type R Integra, or it use's technology derived from race cars to give it a performance edge, and a style that puts performance above all else, for example a Lotus Elise.
It can occur in varying degree's, and everyone has a differing opinion of what makes a sports car.
But I think the one thing everyone will agree on is that a car has to be designed and intended to be a sports car, and an important part of the design brief has to be performance.
Again of course what constitutes performance is open to opinion, and in most peoples opinions it involves more than numbers, there is an element of driver interaction, how it feels, responiveness etc etc.
And quite simply an MX5 meets NONE of the above criteria, it was NEVER designed to be a sports car, from the day the concept was concieved by Mazda performance was never considered.
The car was designed to fill an image of what makes a sport car, not to actualy be a sports car.
The car is a deception, its a lie.
Its the transvestite of the automotive world, running around passing itself off as something it isn't in the hope it can fool someone into taking it home.
The MX5 looks like the tradional and ideal image of a sports car, but thats as far as the similarity goes.
A sports car, IMO is a car designed for sports.
In this case Motorsports, and in the case of a road car, then its a car either designed for use as a week end race car e.g. a Type R Integra, or it use's technology derived from race cars to give it a performance edge, and a style that puts performance above all else, for example a Lotus Elise.
It can occur in varying degree's, and everyone has a differing opinion of what makes a sports car.
But I think the one thing everyone will agree on is that a car has to be designed and intended to be a sports car, and an important part of the design brief has to be performance.
Again of course what constitutes performance is open to opinion, and in most peoples opinions it involves more than numbers, there is an element of driver interaction, how it feels, responiveness etc etc.
And quite simply an MX5 meets NONE of the above criteria, it was NEVER designed to be a sports car, from the day the concept was concieved by Mazda performance was never considered.
The car was designed to fill an image of what makes a sport car, not to actualy be a sports car.
The car is a deception, its a lie.
Its the transvestite of the automotive world, running around passing itself off as something it isn't in the hope it can fool someone into taking it home.
The MX5 looks like the tradional and ideal image of a sports car, but thats as far as the similarity goes.
Ssom
07-19-2004, 06:18 AM
What about the new MX5 Turbo? It still looks like a poofters car, but surely that's a Sports car? How about the fact that they DON'T offer an Auto?
Oz
07-19-2004, 06:36 AM
Let's all calm down a tad. It's a little warm in here.
The first thing you all need to agree on is the definition of a sports car. Go...
The first thing you all need to agree on is the definition of a sports car. Go...
zebrathree
07-19-2004, 06:40 AM
I don't think it's that warm in here, Oz. I think it might just be whatever you've popped tonight making you flushed :D
dayna240sx
07-19-2004, 06:43 AM
"The MX5 is not a sports car because it was never designed to be. "
http://www.automobilemag.com/awards/2002mazdamiata/
Thefact that I type "miata" and "sports car" into a search engine and get almost 100,000 results has to be saying something...
http://www.automobilemag.com/awards/2002mazdamiata/
Thefact that I type "miata" and "sports car" into a search engine and get almost 100,000 results has to be saying something...
Moppie
07-19-2004, 06:43 AM
What about the new MX5 Turbo? It still looks like a poofters car, but surely that's a Sports car? How about the fact that they DON'T offer an Auto?
The MX5 turbo is ariaving 14 years to late, and was actualy developed by Mazda in Australia to meet the growing demand from people who realised that thier "sports car" was all show and no go.
Kind of like marrying the transvestite, then getting them a sex change after the honeymoon.
Unforunatly it still makes less than 100hp/L, Only 120kw from a 1.8l turbo charged engine is a waste of time, the turbo is there for show, just like the rest of the car. The turbo MX5 still has a worse power to weight ratio than an SiR Civic, or GSR Integra, all 4 seaters with roofs.
As for an Auto?
Go and have a look at all the Jap import MX5s running around, manuals are very very hard to find.
The current NZ new model dosn't have a manual option, but then its only one of several MX5 models, there are for example 5 avliable in UK, including a 1.6l version. A 4sp Auto is an option on all but the Turbo model, the same in the US where 3 models are avliable, the Auto is an option on 2.
The MX5 turbo is ariaving 14 years to late, and was actualy developed by Mazda in Australia to meet the growing demand from people who realised that thier "sports car" was all show and no go.
Kind of like marrying the transvestite, then getting them a sex change after the honeymoon.
Unforunatly it still makes less than 100hp/L, Only 120kw from a 1.8l turbo charged engine is a waste of time, the turbo is there for show, just like the rest of the car. The turbo MX5 still has a worse power to weight ratio than an SiR Civic, or GSR Integra, all 4 seaters with roofs.
As for an Auto?
Go and have a look at all the Jap import MX5s running around, manuals are very very hard to find.
The current NZ new model dosn't have a manual option, but then its only one of several MX5 models, there are for example 5 avliable in UK, including a 1.6l version. A 4sp Auto is an option on all but the Turbo model, the same in the US where 3 models are avliable, the Auto is an option on 2.
Ssom
07-19-2004, 06:53 AM
The MX5 turbo is ariaving 14 years to late, and was actualy developed by Mazda in Australia to meet the growing demand from people who realised that thier "sports car" was all show and no go.
Kind of like marrying the transvestite, then getting them a sex change after the honeymoon.
Unforunatly it still makes less than 100hp/L, Only 120kw from a 1.8l turbo charged engine is a waste of time, the turbo is there for show, just like the rest of the car. The turbo MX5 still has a worse power to weight ratio than an SiR Civic, or GSR Integra, all 4 seaters with roofs.
As for an Auto?
Go and have a look at all the Jap import MX5s running around, manuals are very very hard to find.
The current NZ new model dosn't have a manual option, but then its only one of several MX5 models, there are for example 5 avliable in UK, including a 1.6l version. A 4sp Auto is an option on all but the Turbo model, the same in the US where 3 models are avliable, the Auto is an option on 2.
Maybe, I see less and less MX5's these days and I don't touch used Imports as a general rule (at this stage anyway), so I'm not too sure. But yeah, I'm only really familiar with the NZ model anyway.
Kind of like marrying the transvestite, then getting them a sex change after the honeymoon.
Unforunatly it still makes less than 100hp/L, Only 120kw from a 1.8l turbo charged engine is a waste of time, the turbo is there for show, just like the rest of the car. The turbo MX5 still has a worse power to weight ratio than an SiR Civic, or GSR Integra, all 4 seaters with roofs.
As for an Auto?
Go and have a look at all the Jap import MX5s running around, manuals are very very hard to find.
The current NZ new model dosn't have a manual option, but then its only one of several MX5 models, there are for example 5 avliable in UK, including a 1.6l version. A 4sp Auto is an option on all but the Turbo model, the same in the US where 3 models are avliable, the Auto is an option on 2.
Maybe, I see less and less MX5's these days and I don't touch used Imports as a general rule (at this stage anyway), so I'm not too sure. But yeah, I'm only really familiar with the NZ model anyway.
Moppie
07-19-2004, 07:02 AM
Thefact that I type "miata" and "sports car" into a search engine and get almost 100,000 results has to be saying something...
Yes, its called good marketing, and a guliable public.
Mazda did something very clever.
The ideal image of a modern sports car was created by the Triumph TR4, commercialised by the MGB and perfected by the Lotus Elan.
For 30 years, from the 50s to the end of the 70s they, and many others were the ideal, a goal that people aspired to.
They were light, and fast and affordable.
Then in 1980 when British Leyland when bust, and Lotus ran out of money as the automotive world went into a massive slump manufactors stopped making sports cars. They couldn't afford to make them, and people couldnt afford to buy them.
However the ideal image lived on, the mix of MGB, Lotus Elan with some Triumph, Alfa Romeo etc thowen in.
People still wanted to own a car that fitted the ideal, and many tried to supply it during the 80s, and all failed.
Then Lotus came up with an Elan replacement, the S2 Elan, and Mazda, seperatly and unknown to anyone else developed the MX5.
The S2 Elan was the fulfillment of the ideal, only it didnt fit the image and it flopped. People didn't want the ideal, driving fast was not trendy (especialy in a FWD), looking fast was.
Mazda were the clever ones, very clever, infact its one of the cleverest, and most orginal things any manufactor has ever done.
They created a car with the image of the ideal sports car. But thats all it was, and is, just an image.
To make it affordable, they also made it slow and boring to drive.
The fact that it has no roof and is close to the ground was enough of a thrill for people who had had 10 years of nothing even remotly close that it fooled them, and still does into thinking it is going faster than it is, and is more of a thrill than it really is.
The reality is, if you've ever driven a real open sports car like a Lotus Elan and got to know what true agility and preciese handling is, then the MX5 feels like a Toyota Camry.
Forunatly for Mazda very, VERY few people have ever driven the ideal sports car, they only know what it looks like, and have an idea in thier minds of what it should feel like.
Mazda very cleverly appealed to that image and filled a gap in the market.
But the image and the reality are two differnt things, while the MX5 lives up to the image, it falls far far short of the reality.
Its just a shame that to few people know what the reality is.
Yes, its called good marketing, and a guliable public.
Mazda did something very clever.
The ideal image of a modern sports car was created by the Triumph TR4, commercialised by the MGB and perfected by the Lotus Elan.
For 30 years, from the 50s to the end of the 70s they, and many others were the ideal, a goal that people aspired to.
They were light, and fast and affordable.
Then in 1980 when British Leyland when bust, and Lotus ran out of money as the automotive world went into a massive slump manufactors stopped making sports cars. They couldn't afford to make them, and people couldnt afford to buy them.
However the ideal image lived on, the mix of MGB, Lotus Elan with some Triumph, Alfa Romeo etc thowen in.
People still wanted to own a car that fitted the ideal, and many tried to supply it during the 80s, and all failed.
Then Lotus came up with an Elan replacement, the S2 Elan, and Mazda, seperatly and unknown to anyone else developed the MX5.
The S2 Elan was the fulfillment of the ideal, only it didnt fit the image and it flopped. People didn't want the ideal, driving fast was not trendy (especialy in a FWD), looking fast was.
Mazda were the clever ones, very clever, infact its one of the cleverest, and most orginal things any manufactor has ever done.
They created a car with the image of the ideal sports car. But thats all it was, and is, just an image.
To make it affordable, they also made it slow and boring to drive.
The fact that it has no roof and is close to the ground was enough of a thrill for people who had had 10 years of nothing even remotly close that it fooled them, and still does into thinking it is going faster than it is, and is more of a thrill than it really is.
The reality is, if you've ever driven a real open sports car like a Lotus Elan and got to know what true agility and preciese handling is, then the MX5 feels like a Toyota Camry.
Forunatly for Mazda very, VERY few people have ever driven the ideal sports car, they only know what it looks like, and have an idea in thier minds of what it should feel like.
Mazda very cleverly appealed to that image and filled a gap in the market.
But the image and the reality are two differnt things, while the MX5 lives up to the image, it falls far far short of the reality.
Its just a shame that to few people know what the reality is.
dayna240sx
07-19-2004, 08:38 AM
What is the point of all this? and why are you wasting your time?
Just to let everyone know how shitty the car I just bought is?
Just to let everyone know how shitty the car I just bought is?
EclipseRST
07-19-2004, 09:22 AM
ok moppie... say it isnt a sports car, then why is it classifieds as one? insurance says its a sports car, any website says its a sports car! so are you saying my n/a eclipse (car in my sig) is not a sports car also then? my power to weight ratio is way worse than her power to weight ratio! my car is a 4 seater, FWD! those things right there are also considered sedans/family cars! my car handles like shit... and i can almost gaurantee is slower, i believe we have the same HP and my car weighs about 1000-1500lbs more! although now with my car not stock anymore everything changes... so what makes my car a sports car and not hers? and even compare the new turbo models to the turbo eclipses... same comparison as above! so what is this all an opinion cause it sure seems like it!?
l33tc4k30fd00m
07-19-2004, 11:55 AM
Chick car? Eh... To be honest I don't believe in such a thing. This is the 21 century people!
And frankly I would never call anything that's RWD a chick car in the first place. I mean really... Is a Civic more rough and worthly of male attention?? :lol:
I know what I'd prefer...
But if I was looking for an open two seater... Super Seven. No question.
And frankly I would never call anything that's RWD a chick car in the first place. I mean really... Is a Civic more rough and worthly of male attention?? :lol:
I know what I'd prefer...
But if I was looking for an open two seater... Super Seven. No question.
Moppie
07-20-2004, 12:51 AM
What is the point of all this? and why are you wasting your time?
No point, Im just bored.
And prehaps trying to shed some light on a deeply missunderstod car.
A little enlightenment never hurt anybody.
And its not shitty, I never said it was.
It's an extremly well designed car and they have proven to be very reliable. Iv worked on a few, and they are all well put to together, and unlike a lot of Mazdas very well thought out.
They just suffer from an image problem, a very well created image problem.
EclipseRST Im affraid I know almost nothing about the Eclipse, it was never sold out side of America in 2dr form, and the 4dr cars I see imported from Japan don't look at all like the American cars, my guess is only the name is the same.
However, if your car was designed to be a sports car, then you can call it a sports car. It might or might not be a very good sports car, but if that was the designers intention then whats you can call it.
And I don't know about the rest of the world, but the MX5 is quite cheap and easy to insure here in NZ, and is not classified as a sports car by the insurance companys. It simply dosnt have enough hp or the performance levels to get them upset. Making the car affordable was one of Mazda's goals, and the ease with which they could be insured was one of the reasons they sold so well.
If things have changed in the US, it has nothing to do with the cars true nature, only peoples ignorant perception of it.
No point, Im just bored.
And prehaps trying to shed some light on a deeply missunderstod car.
A little enlightenment never hurt anybody.
And its not shitty, I never said it was.
It's an extremly well designed car and they have proven to be very reliable. Iv worked on a few, and they are all well put to together, and unlike a lot of Mazdas very well thought out.
They just suffer from an image problem, a very well created image problem.
EclipseRST Im affraid I know almost nothing about the Eclipse, it was never sold out side of America in 2dr form, and the 4dr cars I see imported from Japan don't look at all like the American cars, my guess is only the name is the same.
However, if your car was designed to be a sports car, then you can call it a sports car. It might or might not be a very good sports car, but if that was the designers intention then whats you can call it.
And I don't know about the rest of the world, but the MX5 is quite cheap and easy to insure here in NZ, and is not classified as a sports car by the insurance companys. It simply dosnt have enough hp or the performance levels to get them upset. Making the car affordable was one of Mazda's goals, and the ease with which they could be insured was one of the reasons they sold so well.
If things have changed in the US, it has nothing to do with the cars true nature, only peoples ignorant perception of it.
Sean
07-20-2004, 01:17 AM
and name one other car besides the miata (and a truck - cause it's obviously not that!) that is a 2 seater and isnt a sports car! i definatly cant think of one...
Nissan Pulsar?
Nissan Pulsar?
Oz
07-20-2004, 01:52 AM
Closed. Pointless discussion. Dayna has the car and is happy with it, regardless of it's sports classification. Move along, nothing to see here.
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