H22A V.S LS/VTEC Please help.

Hey i just got myself a 2000 Civic EX and im looking for a motor swap, yea sure i have done all my research and i have brought it down to the last 2 motors H22A or LS/VTEC (for running high lbs of TURBO)

I WANT THIS TURBO FOR HIGH LBS OF BOOST.

H22A
i went down to a shop that does REALLY good work and they told me for the H22a in my civic i will be able to keep my powersteering, but for TURBO i will have to take out my A/C(who cares). They said i would be hauling ass with that motor but the weight in the front will affect turning ability, then they said not to worry about it because with the right suspension it would turn as good as any other car. So what do u think?

LS/VTEC
for this motor they told me they could make it work perfectly mixing heads on motors, and they also told me that with turbo i could at least run 17 Lbs of boost stock with a HONDATA controller. Not bad i said, but i dont know what head to put on the LS? I've seen alot of different combinations, but whats the best one? and i also heard the Integra Type R Intake Manifold is a beast on motors? so what head should i use? and what kind of power would i expect out of this...... thank you

Thank you for all suggestions.

17psi on a stock block is a little high for an LS. An LS can safly handle upwards of 12psi on a stock block, more than any other honda motor. The H22 has cylinder walls that are to thin, so it can't handle much more than 8psi on stock internals and sleeves. Also, the H22 will cause a lot of understeer, so basically you won't turn worth anything. The car will go fast is a straight line but can't corner. This is becuase it adds to much weight to the front of the car, throwing off the natural balence.

If you want to run 17psi safely and not blow up your motor, you'll want to build the motor. You'll be able to run more boost on the LS than an H22. H22's can't handle more than 8psi max on stock internals and sleeves, and the LS can handle upwards of 12psi on stock internals. The H22 isn't a great motor for boost, and as I said (and the shop said), you can't turn worth a damn with them. A suspension will only take you so far in correcting that. I'm not a fan of H22's in Civics for this reason, and I know plenty of people on here agree. I'd go with the LS/Vtec out of those choices. If you do an LS/Vtec, don't rev it much past 7K on stock internals, as the LS block is designed for a redline around 7K. Don't rev it to 8000K like you might do with a GSR, the internals and the short block of the LS weren't designed for that high a redline. Just because you have a Vtec ITR, GSR, or B16A head doesn't change the fact the LS short block wasn't designed to rev ultra high like those blocks. You might have a head from those motors, but your block is still as LS.

I'd also like to say that you should lower the compression in either of these engines if you're planning on boosting it. Just do some sleeves, pistons, rods, maybe a thicker head gasket, and I'd think you'd be fine. I know a guy who turbo'd his LS/vtec; it ran great for a while until he set the psi to 12 or so (could have been a little higher) and boom blew out his pistons i believe. So definently do some motor work before you turbo. But with the h22, there's no way they can get your car to have the turning ability of other cars. You're still going to get a workout with pulling that steering wheel when turning, it is a beeitch. My buddy's got a 95 civic 4dr that he just put a turbo onto his h22 (running 10-12 psi); unfortunately it's still being tuned this week but should know soon how it turned out. But unless you just care about ¼ mile times; go with the B.

go to importreview.com they advice not to put an h22 in a civic and for good reason

go ls/vtec

h22 is simply not worth it in that chassis unless you're building an all out drag car.

I'd also like to say that you should lower the compression in either of these engines if you're planning on boosting it. Just do some sleeves, pistons, rods, maybe a thicker head gasket

Unless he has plans for 450+ WHP you don't need sleeves, TONS of people are making power with a blockguard and pistons and rods, so why go to all the extra trouble of sleeving. Doesn't need a thicker headgasket if he's getting new pistons and rods either, all that does is mess up your quench and make the motor more suceptable to detonation.

...the H22 will cause a lot of understeer, so basically you won't turn worth anything...

Isnt it oversteer since the h22 is like 300lbs heavier than a b-series setup? More weight in the front... more the front tires are clued to the road... more grip... more steer.

But yea dont do either. H22 creates to much oversteer in civics and ls/vtec is basically a fragile GSR motor.

If u have a civic just run a CTR motor. That motor was made for ur car (civics). It is a prefect high reving motor. Or you can swap in a GSR motor. ls/vtec is just a new way of building a motor so thats why it is so popular plus it amazing power output. Later on in the future u are gonna see it die out. Its like steroids. A new way of building muscle rapidly. Later find out it is unhealthy so now less people use it now.

If you think the .04:1 difference in rod/stroke ratio between the LS and the GSR means anything, you're a fool. A properly assembled high revving LS/VTEC with new pistons/rods that has been balanced will live just as long as a high revving GSR will.

Unless he has plans for 450+ WHP you don't need sleeves, TONS of people are making power with a blockguard and pistons and rods, so why go to all the extra trouble of sleeving. Doesn't need a thicker headgasket if he's getting new pistons and rods either, all that does is mess up your quench and make the motor more suceptable to detonation.
True true but not all h22's can use a blockguard, with the closed decks. I personally wouldn't be comfortable running high boost on the stock sleeves, but i guess that's just my opinion. But he never said how much boost he'd run specifically on the h22; I was just trying to cover bases. I guess a thicker headgasket would be pointless with low comp pistons; but why would it cause detonation by lowering the compression by .2 more with a headgasket?? I don't know; guess i've got a lot to learn...

True true but not all h22's can use a blockguard, with the closed decks. I personally wouldn't be comfortable running high boost on the stock sleeves, but i guess that's just my opinion. But he never said how much boost he'd run specifically on the h22; I was just trying to cover bases. I guess a thicker headgasket would be pointless with low comp pistons; but why would it cause detonation by lowering the compression by .2 more with a headgasket?? I don't know; guess i've got a lot to learn...


I wasn't talking about an H22, I was talking about a B-series. H22's are a waste of money to put em into a civic and turbo them.

About the detonation thing, it relates to quench and squish. You can search on the internet for info about it if you want to, but I don't feel like explaining it in detail. For the simplistic explanation, the further away the cylinder head is from the piston at TDC, the more likely the motor is to experience detonation. That is why it is better to go with dished pistons/bigger combustion chambers than to try and run a thicker headgasket to lower compression.

All this H22 Dising is bullshit, unless your Drifting (a FF drive car?) or running a circut the slight understeer is not a problem. The H22 setup in a civic is a rush to drive and turbo is not a problem with some internal work done.

the h22 is 180 lbs over b-series, not 300 lbs. and with the proper suspension, wouldnt this compensate for the slight understeer. i've read everywhere that a good suspesion kit (which means good money) that lowers your car about 2 inches will compensate for the understeer. and not to mention, a boosted h22 civic would have more torque than a boosted ls/vtec.

The point is, the extra weight over the wheels in front creats more understeer...can you modify the suspension to help compinsate for this? Yes, you can....can you modify the suspension with a b-series to further improve handling...yes...and it won't have that extra understeer to start with...however, you can do that with any car or motor... I know that to some the "slight understeer" doesn't matter. For me it does...You can notice the understeer on faster turns, and I'd rather do without it and go with a b-series if it's a civic...but it's your money, do what you want.

yea .. alot of people dont realize with a hondata and the correct tunigng you can push ALOT of psi through yoru car. we have a integra type R turbo in my crew and he's pushing 25 psi on his stock internals. I was personaly a big fan of ls/vtec, but again its alot of work to get everything working properly on it. not to mention it will throw temper tantrums on you all the time. The h22 is a really powerful engine, but at teh same time really heavy, you would need prelude front suspension and just look at it like this, take yoru car now, and have 1 or 2 pretty good sized people sit on your hood. thats roughtly the weight your going to put in there. I've seen both set ups I've seen ls/vtec turbo, which was really really dann fast (and in the shop right now.. . temper tantrum) and I've seen an h22 droped into a delsol, it was decent... just keep in mind that yoru h22 is alot bigger adn heavier than a b-series. so have fun changing your oil filter, its really hard to get to. and it weighs a ton. well hopefully I've helped a little bit

Prelude suspension on a civic, is that what you said??? And changing the oil filter isn't hard to do, believe me my buddy with the h22 in his 4dr would be bitching like crazy if it was hard to get to; seeing as how he's changed his oil and filter about 4 or 5 times in the past month. And is your buddy with the ITR using regular pump gas with that 25psi?

... we have a integra type R turbo in my crew and he's pushing 25 psi on his stock internals...

No He's Not.

...you would need prelude front suspension...

And you would do this, how?

LOL i was thinking the same thing about both of those quotes too!

"we have a integra type R turbo in my crew and he's pushing 25 psi on his stock internals" and I have a Civic with a RB26DETT in it ....

"you would need prelude front suspension" ehhh ok... on a Civic???

:eek7: :disappoin :nono:

wow Civichatch982 is never allowed to speak again. can the mods please ban him for being such a moron.

a few things here guys. ok yes we established that the h22 adds weight and affects handling right? ok now if he wants to run a CIVIC with HIGH BOOST on a B OR H SERIES MOTOR he will pushing a lot of HIGH END HORSEPOWER. this means the car would no longer be very trackworthy. yes on a drag strip it would do wonders but i dont think he will be doing the kind of racing that the added understeer will hinder him. i mean come on any honda with 250+hp from turbocharging would run worse on an autocross course than any NA 180hp civic would due to the very uneven power curve and turbo lag, not to meniton traction problems. if high hp is your goal and you are going to build the motor anyways, go with an h23 block buid it and use a built h22 head. then turbo it. then we can see what people with turbo b-series think. my friend has a fully built lsvtec turbo being made right now. he is copying someone elses setup that put 650hp to the ground. now that motor is pretty much maxed out as far as that goes. but the same building up done on the h23/h22 setup i just said would net well over 700hp.

the best way to go is crv swap not a torqueless 1.8 but not a heavy h22 and if you want to turbo do NOT use a vtec head as vtec's are not turbo friendly and crv engines are capable of redlining at 7500 rpm or so you'll have roughly 4000-4500 rpms to get something out of your turbo and if you get the t28 ball bearing turbo it'll spoolup at a lower rpm which means a more constant flow of power and an ls with stock internal can only run a absolute max boost of 10 psi. so you do the math but either way tranny wise id go with a 1998 gsr thats the best over all transmision. any questions or aguements let me know i will set you straight.

the best way to go is crv swap not a torqueless 1.8 but not a heavy h22 and if you want to turbo do NOT use a vtec head as vtec's are not turbo friendly and crv engines are capable of redlining at 7500 rpm or so you'll have roughly 4000-4500 rpms to get something out of your turbo and if you get the t28 ball bearing turbo it'll spoolup at a lower rpm which means a more constant flow of power and an ls with stock internal can only run a absolute max boost of 10 psi. so you do the math but either way tranny wise id go with a 1998 gsr thats the best over all transmision. any questions or aguements let me know i will set you straight.


ok wow some people just dont get it. yes the b20 is a good motor to boost. but it has very thin cylinder walls and cant handle more than 8psi without seriously stressing them. also about vtec not being friendly with turbos, that is the biggest misconception around. take an ls motor and turbo it. then put a vtec head on the same motor and turbo it. see which setup makes more power. the vtec one. why? IT FLOWS MORE AIR!!! just because vtec has slightly more overlap does not mean it is bad for turbocharging. in fact the fastest turbocharged cars out right now use ITR cams on vtec heads. so dont tell people non vtec is the way to go when you dont know what youre talking about.

another thing. he said he wants to run high boost and you tell him to use a t28? someone has been reading too many ads in magazines. yah the t28 is cool for a stock motor but at 15+ psi it wont be pushing enough cfm to make big power. anyone else want to make uneducated comments that merely make the answering process more complicated and completely confuse the newbies around here?

ok wow some people just dont get it. yes the b20 is a good motor to boost. but it has very thin cylinder walls and cant handle more than 8psi without seriously stressing them. also about vtec not being friendly with turbos, that is the biggest misconception around. take an ls motor and turbo it. then put a vtec head on the same motor and turbo it. see which setup makes more power. the vtec one. why? IT FLOWS MORE AIR!!! just because vtec has slightly more overlap does not mean it is bad for turbocharging. in fact the fastest turbocharged cars out right now use ITR cams on vtec heads. so dont tell people non vtec is the way to go when you dont know what youre talking about.

another thing. he said he wants to run high boost and you tell him to use a t28? someone has been reading too many ads in magazines. yah the t28 is cool for a stock motor but at 15+ psi it wont be pushing enough cfm to make big power. anyone else want to make uneducated comments that merely make the answering process more complicated and completely confuse the newbies around here?

Ya, I see more misconseptions going around here by people who havent done any research. It like the classic LS/Vtec is unreliable, or N20 blows up your motor.....etc. I have seen ls/vtecs putting down 500 at the weels....yes that is with a vtec head,and was plenty reliable! Personally I would go with the ls/vtec, but that could be because I own a b series motor and i really like it. H22's are bad A too. Both will be good, but I would still go b series. and like mentoned above this guy wants to run quite a bit of boost, so he is going to have to re-sleeve, piston's, rods's anyways, well not nessisarily re-sleeve and close the deck, but it isn't a bad idea depending on how much boost he runs. Really it would help to see what your power goal is to better say which motor would be best, and for what cost!

why use a h22 with 210 at the crank when you can get a JDMb18c5 which is lighter and also has 210 at the crank and is higher reving which means more time for vtec to give you top end power just go all engine that would be smarter and more empressive

ok edman24 mr. "my friend has a lsvtec running 30 psi dailly driver with 650hp" or whatever dont try to bash me because i made you feel like a bloody idiot with diarhia of the mouth. i know for a fact a t28 is awesome because i know quite a few people running that turbo and its spooling at 2300 rpm and is at full 29 lbs of boost at 3200rpm getting 605 hp at the wheels with a 4j63 in their EVO which is bored out to a 2.3 which is why you my friend are full of doo doo because that evo is more tricked out than your mom and that contradicts your "t28's are good for stock engines" your wrong face it do copy some article from sport compact car or some other magazine. deal with it, get over it, and move on. i dont know you but i dont like you snobynes. and you drive a 1990 corrado so your opinion of hondas/acuras is about as useful as a one legged man in an @$$ kicking contest so what im saying is you need to be in the VW section but your trying to impress people with your FRIENDS bogus car so stop and go to the vw section where i could skool you just as well because i had a 71 ghia that was an all motor 11 sec. car so buh bye.

also the fastest turbo car right know is a v8 twin turbo celica which does a 1/4mile in 7.03sec at 202.55 mph it was banned in 2003 which is why mr. dumbass probably didnt see it. and vtecs arent turbo friedly because you cant run high boost and be reliable enough to actually finish a day at the drag strip and then drive home mr. dailly driver 650 hp 30 psi boost.

wow you need some help man. if you werent such a newb youd also know that i had an lsvtec hatchback for quite some time that would destroy anything youve ever laid your hands on and so would my corrado. 11 second ghia my ass. any idea what it takes to make a ghia run 11 seconds with an aircooled motor? oh but i bet you dropped in an ls turbo motor right?

and the fact that one example you give me with the t28 has high hp numbers means absolutely nothing. ever think maybe this guy can run a slightly larger trim turbo and get the same, if not more power with lower boost pressure? but you wouldnt understand cfm vs psi anyways because youre too caught up in your own little world to understand anything logical. and by the way the evo has a 4G63 not 4j but i guess you knew that right?

and how does a vtec motor become less reliable than a non vtec one? guess you wouldnt know because youve never been fortunate enough to own a vtec motor.

wtf does a twin turbo v8 celica have anything to do with this topic? can someone please explain that one to me? do you want a cookie for knowing that little fact?

and in case you got the balls to put your money where your mouth is, i have access to a civic with a fully built turbo GSR motor (has vtec in case you didnt know) thats still a 1.8 liter that would hand even your make believe 11 second ghia its ass. dont believe me? come try it stupid.

and wtf is "snobynes"?

wait you drive a 1984 944? im sorry but you have no right to even open your mouth. my corrado stock would have destroyed that pos considering its not even the 944 turbo. also since you seem to know so much let me ask you one question. you claim that evo has bigger displacement right? 2.3 liters? do you know how thats done? any idea who makes that kit and where it comes from? i highly doubt it. lets see how long it takes you to research that one. maybe look in one of your magazines and youll find the answer. its probably right next to that ad on the jg edelbrock turbo kit that comes with a t28 turbo which is probably the only info you have on it.

you dumb ass SRT motorsports and my ghia which i told you i sold you oaf had a 2.7 porsche 911 engine swap with too much to even explain to that little head of yours. and if you so confident and sure in what you saying why are you even arguing with me grow up and stop trying to seem like a big man im over it and when im finished with my gsr/type-r I will come a knockin at your door to race you on the track where it really matters, any monkey(thats you) could turbo any car and drive it in a strait line. i supose you think heel toeing is the shit too.
3 strikes your out.
although its been fun its time too move on the guy asked for our opinion not for you to make an @$$ of yourself so peace man peace drive safe and dont race illegally because it will only get you in trouble or hurt. and as for my porsche stock which is why i bought it. it will out perform 90% of the cars on the road today.
take it easy i dont want to have to embarase anyone.

you dumb ass SRT motorsports and my ghia which i told you i sold you oaf had a 2.7 porsche 911 engine swap with too much to even explain to that little head of yours. and if you so confident and sure in what you saying why are you even arguing with me grow up and stop trying to seem like a big man im over it and when im finished with my gsr/type-r I will come a knockin at your door to race you on the track where it really matters, any monkey(thats you) could turbo any car and drive it in a strait line. i supose you think heel toeing is the shit too.
3 strikes your out.
although its been fun its time too move on the guy asked for our opinion not for you to make an @$$ of yourself so peace man peace drive safe and dont race illegally because it will only get you in trouble or hurt. and as for my porsche stock which is why i bought it. it will out perform 90% of the cars on the road today.
take it easy i dont want to have to embarase anyone.


oh dont worry you didnt embarass anyone. and in case you do ever finish your gs-typer or whatever it is, id be more than happy to hand you your ass in an autocross event if you care to try me. dont talk about heel-toeing unless you know what its actually used for. and no its not a dance step.

3 strikes your out? how cliche. i love people who think they burned someone when theyre all alone. if that makes you feel better though, be my guest.

anyone can throw in a big motor in a small car and make it fast. dont think youre special by doing that in your ghia. a REAL tuner would have taken the time and effort to work on an original aircooled motor and get power out of it. heck i could throw in a cadillac norstar v8 in my rado and kill everything. but then id be just another fag who thinks bigger is better. typical white trash american style.

ok thats great but the porsche 911 was aircoole aswell as it is today so i stuck to the air cooled but it wasnt der ren kaufer cup leagal so when i raced my buddy mike lawless of fresno who has held that chapionship for the past few years and beat him by almost a second it ment nothing because i couldnt do it on the track where it counts and there is a difference between a porsche v6 in place of a vw 4cyl and a caddy v8 in place of a vw 4cyl. and im pure fighting irish baby no american white trash here.

when im finished with my gsr/type-r I will come a knockin at your door to race you on the track where it really matters

wtf is a gsr/type-r? which is it, a gsr or a type-r?

dont talk about heel-toeing unless you know what its actually used for. and no its not a dance step.

looks like someone just burned their own bridge. the heel toe is a dance, come to Jamaica and you'll see what i mean. dumb american...lol, j/k. but seriously, when it comes to cars, what is heel-toe? never heard of that in my life on cars, just the Jamaican dance. please inform me, and dont take what i said to heart, wasnt serious.

why use a h22 with 210 at the crank when you can get a JDMb18c5 which is lighter and also has 210 at the crank and is higher reving which means more time for vtec to give you top end power just go all engine that would be smarter and more empressive

Torque.

Torque.

exactly what i was going to say.

Torque isn't quite as much of a factor when we are considering turboed engines and not stock engines.

In my opinion(this is a true fact even tho i say its my opinion) A h22a in a Civic Hatch running 18psi with a t4 turbo vs. an b18c5 in a Civic hatch on 18psi with a t4 turbo. Who would win? The b18c5. Fuck torque.

If you want an explination of why...

1. The b18c5 can rev out to 9000+ rpms, the h22a goes to around 8ish... this means the ITR engine doesn't have to shift gears as quickly.

2. The b18c5 has a MUCH better flowing head so it will probably produce about the same hp/torque numbers as the h22a(given that they have about the same internal build and cpr). When hp/torque numbers are around equal, usually the lighter car will win, the b18c5 is usually stated as a couple hundred lbs. lighter than the h22a so the Civic with the b18c5 would win in that aspect also.

P.S. The b18c5 would win in stock vs. stock against an h22a anyway, so if they had around the same hp/tq numbers with a turbo build up. It's common sense that the b18c5 would still win. (this is of course under all situations listed, that the drivers were of equal caliber)

:sorry:

Torque isn't quite as much of a factor when we are considering turboed engines and not stock engines.

In my opinion(this is a true fact even tho i say its my opinion) A h22a in a Civic Hatch running 18psi with a t4 turbo vs. an b18c5 in a Civic hatch on 18psi with a t4 turbo. Who would win? The b18c5. Fuck torque.

If you want an explination of why...

1. The b18c5 can rev out to 9000+ rpms, the h22a goes to around 8ish... this means the ITR engine doesn't have to shift gears as quickly.

2. The b18c5 has a MUCH better flowing head so it will probably produce about the same hp/torque numbers as the h22a(given that they have about the same internal build and cpr). When hp/torque numbers are around equal, usually the lighter car will win, the b18c5 is usually stated as a couple hundred lbs. lighter than the h22a so the Civic with the b18c5 would win in that aspect also.

P.S. The b18c5 would win in stock vs. stock against an h22a anyway, so if they had around the same hp/tq numbers with a turbo build up. It's common sense that the b18c5 would still win. (this is of course under all situations listed, that the drivers were of equal caliber)


i completely disagree. you forget to mention the displacement factor. although most honda fanatics dont like to admit it but bigger displacement means more power. the fact that the type r motor revs higher means nothing considering to run 18psi both motors would be built and both could rev about the same. also the h22 would rip the type r off the line stock for stock and considering the fact that after being built they both would be boosting the same the type r wouldnt be able to catch up. also it does not weigh a couple hundred pounds more. thats quite an overstatement. i actually dont know the real figures but im quite confident its not more than 150lb difference but i guess i could be wrong. even if i am wrong, the extra torque more than makes up for it.

the fact that the type r head flows better stock is also irrelevant because both would have built heads and both could flow equally well

i completely disagree. you forget to mention the displacement factor. although most honda fanatics dont like to admit it but bigger displacement means more power. the fact that the type r motor revs higher means nothing considering to run 18psi both motors would be built and both could rev about the same. also the h22 would rip the type r off the line stock for stock and considering the fact that after being built they both would be boosting the same the type r wouldnt be able to catch up. also it does not weigh a couple hundred pounds more. thats quite an overstatement. i actually dont know the real figures but im quite confident its not more than 150lb difference but i guess i could be wrong. even if i am wrong, the extra torque more than makes up for it.

the fact that the type r head flows better stock is also irrelevant because both would have built heads and both could flow equally well

I don't know who told you that the prelude is faster than a itr, but it is incorrect. The ITR wins in a straigt line, and on a track against any prelude that was ever introduced to the US. But if we are talking japans type S, then it is a different story! I have seen these results time after time. With a good driver a itr can run mid/high 14's bone stock! I have yet to see any prelude do that. And ITR's can out handle preludes as well....might be why itr has been the world autocross champ like 5 years running!

I could be wrong but I believe he was talking about an h22 in a civic not a prelude.

If you can afford to do a Built H22 Turbo or a Built ls/vtec turbo why didn't you just buy a type-R or a s2000 and work from there. For a built EX with motor swap and labor and the cost of the car you could have bought an s2000 and maybe some money left over for a supercharger.

I don't know who told you that the prelude is faster than a itr, but it is incorrect. The ITR wins in a straigt line, and on a track against any prelude that was ever introduced to the US. But if we are talking japans type S, then it is a different story! I have seen these results time after time. With a good driver a itr can run mid/high 14's bone stock! I have yet to see any prelude do that. And ITR's can out handle preludes as well....might be why itr has been the world autocross champ like 5 years running!

In which class did they win 5 years running?

that doesnt matter. when was the last time you heard of a prelude winning in any autocross race and the b18c5 would get the jump off the line even though you THINK the h22 would have more power and torque because the b18c5 has 180 less pounds to throw around and redlining high is an advantage because of being able to shirft less frequently which means more constant power power which means faster acceleration which wins races. and i dont care what you think you know a b18c5 will allways redline higher no matter what you do to a h22, if you do the same thing to the b18c5 it will out rev the h22.point is if you start with a better engine your going to end with a better engine.

that doesnt matter. when was the last time you heard of a prelude winning in any autocross race and the b18c5 would get the jump off the line even though you THINK the h22 would have more power and torque because the b18c5 has 180 less pounds to throw around and redlining high is an advantage because of being able to shirft less frequently which means more constant power power which means faster acceleration which wins races. and i dont care what you think you know a b18c5 will allways redline higher no matter what you do to a h22, if you do the same thing to the b18c5 it will out rev the h22.point is if you start with a better engine your going to end with a better engine.

What does reving an engine high have anything to do with it? When you are racing auto-cross you want a car that had a nice solid power-band at lower rpms. You do not want a car that you constantly have to wind back up again after going through a corner. c5 motors are good motors don't get me wrong but it also has it's disadvanges. Both motors are great motors but you also have to understand there is a big price diffrence between the 2 motors so if you are going to do a motor swap then maybe you should weight out other things like cost and how much bang you get for the buck. I am rode in H22 swapped civic and I have also wrote in type-R swapped civic and I am telling you right now that the h22 civic is nothing to mess with. The h22 does not need the extra 2k rpm redline the type-R does.

try it out and see the b18c5 will win. and we are talking about a street car not a track car so this guy is going to be runing in a strait line and with that in mind the higher rpms are better to have. and if you want to really get into it run that civic type r and that civic h22 on a track with the same tires and same size fuel cell and see who will win that race... the civic type r because he will consume less fuel and go through less tread on his tires all while being able to go faster though the corners on a better line because he will weigh significantly less, espeacially seeing how civics are already front heavy adding more weight to the front espeacially in a track car will only be digging your own grave.

You have to put into consideration the torque multiplication factor.

keep in mind a b16a revs higher than an h22a. Put both engines into a hatch and who wins? h22a

I'm not saying the results of who will win are based soley on this factor, but you're basing your opinion too much on the fact that the b18c5 revs higher than an h22a.

I'm not saying a b18c5 will beat an h22a, or that an h22a will beat a b18c5.

just maybe something you guys should think about.

I don't know who told you that the prelude is faster than a itr, but it is incorrect. The ITR wins in a straigt line, and on a track against any prelude that was ever introduced to the US. But if we are talking japans type S, then it is a different story! I have seen these results time after time. With a good driver a itr can run mid/high 14's bone stock! I have yet to see any prelude do that. And ITR's can out handle preludes as well....might be why itr has been the world autocross champ like 5 years running!


yes i was talking about these motors being swapped into civics. i know type r's are faster than preludes. also i think this guy has enough info already. we obviously all have our own opinions about what is faster and better. some more educated than others, but hey, ignorance makes the world go round, no?

and it seems that everytime you post lost944 that you have something to say that just doesnt make sense. you really think because the c5 revs higher that it makes it better? my car redlines at 7k rpm but i would destroy any civic with a c5 in a drag race or autocross. why? i make power from 2000rpm and up to redline. c5 barely moves until 5000. good for larger tracks but not good when there are a lot of low speed corners and short straights as in an autocross course. but you should know this right? i mean come on, you do own a porsche.... :grinno:

wtf is a gsr/type-r? which is it, a gsr or a type-r?



looks like someone just burned their own bridge. the heel toe is a dance, come to Jamaica and you'll see what i mean. dumb american...lol, j/k. but seriously, when it comes to cars, what is heel-toe? never heard of that in my life on cars, just the Jamaican dance. please inform me, and dont take what i said to heart, wasnt serious.
a gsr/type r is a less expensive gsr with a type r engine and tranny. :thumbsup:

In which class did they win 5 years running?
the SCCA pro racing's speedvision world challenge race series every year since it's 97 debut. they even dominated the 1998, 1999, 2000 seasons taking 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the final standings. detailed enogh for ya :flipa:
oh yeah and this is strait off of a roadtest article on the web...
Consider this, though: Even after the debut of the Celica GT-S, the Mitsubishi Eclipse GT, the Mercury Cougar V6 and the GTI GLX, the Integra Type R is still the fastest and most capable front-drive sport coupe you can buy. That's something special, and we think it will continue to be something special 20 years from now. No matter what happens with the new Integra (or whatever Acura will call it), the '97-'01 Integra Type R will be a classic.

:nutkick:

oh yeah and edman24 would you race and spank one of those fine tuned machines???? :cheers:

8===d-----

8===d---

you really think because the c5 revs higher that it makes it better? my car redlines at 7k rpm but i would destroy any civic with a c5 in a drag race or autocross. why? i make power from 2000rpm and up to redline. c5 barely moves until 5000. good for larger tracks but not good when there are a lot of low speed corners and short straights as in an autocross course.

You brought up a good point there. My B16A redlines at 8,200 rpms, but in all honesty it really doesn't make much power until around 4,000 rpms. Anything with larger displacement and torque is going to take me easily. Just because I redline higher than most other motors out there doesn't mean I'm going to be winning any races. I just have to spin a lot more rpms in order to make my power. However that was a comparison against stock motors. Built motors will be an entirely different story - it all depends on the motor's setup. Personally, I would swap in a B18 variant over a H-series motor, but that's just my opinion.

If I remember correctly (although I could be wrong), I think the H22A motor is about 70lbs heavier than a B-series. I know a couple people who have swapped them into their Del Sol's and the weight difference isn't as bad as people tend to think. However, the motor pitches in the opposite direction of the B-series motors, which contributes to steering problems. I don't believe any of the Del Sol's with this swap were in auto-cross though. Most of the Del Sol's I know in auto-cross use a B-series swap of some sort.

And one of my neighbors drives a Corrado. Nice looking car. If I ever get a VW, I'll probably look into finding one of those.

8===d---

How old are you, 8? You should try to be more informative in your posts and stop attacking people when you don't like their answer. That blathering gibberish you spout out every other post is as confusing as it is annoying.

try it out and see the b18c5 will win. and we are talking about a street car not a track car so this guy is going to be runing in a strait line and with that in mind the higher rpms are better to have. and if you want to really get into it run that civic type r and that civic h22 on a track with the same tires and same size fuel cell and see who will win that race... the civic type r because he will consume less fuel and go through less tread on his tires all while being able to go faster though the corners on a better line because he will weigh significantly less, espeacially seeing how civics are already front heavy adding more weight to the front espeacially in a track car will only be digging your own grave.


ok street to street think about it. The Prelude motor (h22) puts out more horse and more torque then a type-R motor. Now if you put a motor that has good horse and good torque into a light car and then take a motor that has good horse and low torque into the same light car which is going to win? Think about it. Please don't repeat things that you hear from other people that don't know what they are talking about. Saying that there is issues with the H22 being all heavy in the front is a lame. Who here swaps an H22 and does nothing ever with the suspension on their car? I rode in a H22 powered civic and that thing cornered better then a lot of cars with just lowering springs and strut bars. Also the comment about the fuel milage. When you are doing Auto Cross most of the time you are not even driving the track long enough to pit. Unless you are talking about Pro and in that case both cars are built to burn fuel so it doesn't matter, not to mention that both motors fuel milage are soo close together that it does not make that much of a diffrence in milage.

first off an h22 is 180lbs more than a b18c-r and the b18c-r has the same (210) if not more horsepower then that higher displacement h22 (most use an h22a-g2 which has 202) and the b18c-r has 141 ft lbs of torque while the h22 has 160ft lbs so with the extra power with a little less torque i say and know dont think for you stupid smartasses out there the b18c-r is a better more versitile engine than the h22, and i dont attack i retaliate againt those who make stupid comments like "in what class for the last five years" and "I completely disagree" or "you read too much" when some one is making a general statement thats true which is why i posted this "the SCCA pro racing's speedvision world challenge race series every year since it's 97 debut. they even dominated the 1998, 1999, 2000 seasons taking 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the final standings." SO if you theory of the h22 is true why wouldnt they be using the less expensive h22 if it was SOOOO much better your wrong i have physical proof and you are going to have to deal with it and tell your del sol buddies they should have used a b18c-r(the better engine) no hard feelings bro

You're a jackass, I've read NOTHING about anyone saying an h22 is better for SCCA shit in this thread. No one is debating that the B18c5 is better for that, but with drag racing (straight line) it'd be too close. You're just being plain ignorant, and your only response is to repeat yourself or make immature comments. And people wouldn't be making "stupid comments" if you'd have the intelligence to show facts in the first place when making claims. This thread should be closed and this flamer should be banned. You're usless to the community.

tell your del sol buddies they should have used a b18c-r(the better engine) no hard feelings bro

No offense taken. However the motor choice really depends on your application. There is no "this is the best engine to use every time no matter what you want to do". The owners of the H-series swaps I know don't race professionally. Some are for shows, others are just an affordable increase in power and torque for their daily driver. I know of one person who performed a H23 swap. As previously stated, the people I know who auto-cross do use a B-series motor of some type. Then again most B-series transmissions are geared for acceleration. Also, not everyone is able to afford a Type-R motor swap.

H-series motors can be just as strong and the ability to spin high rpm's doesn't mean the motor is better. Displacement makes a big difference in Honda motors as does torque. It just takes more rpm's to produce comparible power in the B-series motor than it does in the H-series motor. The H-series has the advantage of displacement so will pull harder on the bottom end although the B-series will have the advantage on the top end.

Now, to put the post back on subject and to answer the original poster's question, of the two motors in question I would suggest he use the LS/VTEC motor. Not because it's a "poor man's Type-R" or any such nonsense. My main reasons are:

1) Stock cylinder walls will be able to handle the stress better under boost.
2) B-series motors are easier to install on the EK chassis.
3) The motor pitches in the proper direction to balance steering/suspension properly.
4) More room in the engine bay for things like A/C or other modifications.

If he was staying N/A, then I would suggest the H22A. If he's focused entirely on maximum HP, then yes I'd suggest the H22A. If he wants nothing but a drag car, again the H22A. If he is resleeving whichever motor he gets, then perhaps again the H22A isn't such a bad idea. If he wants handling and a very streetable car (which I'm assuming he wants here), then B-series has my vote.

Engine weight has absolutely nothing to do with it and I stand by my opinion that the swap is around 70lbs more than the B-series swap. Don't believe me? Go here:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=684550
This should settle the engine weight debate.

You're a jackass, I've read NOTHING about anyone saying an h22 is better for SCCA shit in this thread. No one is debating that the B18c5 is better for that, but with drag racing (straight line) it'd be too close. You're just being plain ignorant, and your only response is to repeat yourself or make immature comments. And people wouldn't be making "stupid comments" if you'd have the intelligence to show facts in the first place when making claims. This thread should be closed and this flamer should be banned. You're usless to the community.
:flipa:

:flipa:
Thank you for proving me right.

My B16A redlines at 8,200 rpms, but in all honesty it really doesn't make much power until around 4,000 rpms. Anything with larger displacement and torque is going to take me easily. Just because I redline higher than most other motors out there doesn't mean I'm going to be winning any races. I just have to spin a lot more rpms in order to make my power. However that was a comparison against stock motors. Built motors will be an entirely different story - it all depends on the motor's setup. Personally, I would swap in a B18 variant over a H-series motor, but that's just my opinion.

Thank you for supporting my technical reference. And your opinion is well respected.

Props to you :thumbsup:

this is the worst forum site ive ever been to because people come late into the thread and dont have a fucking clue what the hell is going on so they just talk an endless amount of shit even though they contradict what they just said 20 minutes ago, so im going elsewhere where a physics majors opinion is apprieciated... away from you stupid fucks.

Thank you for supporting my technical reference. And your opinion is well respected.

Props to you :thumbsup:


ditto here.

i find it funny that lost944 is on his own on this subject. and didnt you say my opinion means nothing because i dont own a honda? im sorry but i swear i thought you owned a 944. anyways maybe youre putting in a type r motor or something but who knows.

no matter what lost944 thinks, i think we all have come to a concensus here on what is better for what application. it is up to the originator of this topic to decide what he wants.

p.s.
i "totally agree" with your choice in sn, you are really just a lost 944.

this is the worst forum site ive ever been to because people come late into the thread and dont have a fucking clue what the hell is going on so they just talk an endless amount of shit even though they contradict what they just said 20 minutes ago, so im going elsewhere where a physics majors opinion is apprieciated... away from you stupid fucks.


oh man youre a physics major? wow that really does not show from how youve been acting. maybe i should think twice about college if all people with majors in sciences come out like you. i thought you needed brains and open mindedness to get into college? maybe i was wrong..... :grinno: