H22A V.S LS/VTEC Please help.

if he really is a physics major, he would know very well what me, Plastic_Fork and edman24 are talking about when saying you don't need a high revving engine to make power.

oh man youre a physics major? wow that really does not show from how youve been acting. maybe i should think twice about college if all people with majors in sciences come out like you. i thought you needed brains and open mindedness to get into college? maybe i was wrong..... :grinno:
im already done with you we had a truce what the hell, well whatever, the lost is for lost surfboards not the fact that im lost.

if he really is a physics major, he would know very well what me, Plastic_Fork and edman24 are talking about when saying you don't need a high revving engine to make power.
i never said that, i said that because its redline is higher you would have more time in each gear which would mean more constant power.

all in all what im saying in the most simple form is if stock a b18c-r will beat an h22 espeacially a USDM one which this guy will probably be using (200 hp) than no matter how much you put into that h22, if you put just as much in that b18c-r that b18c-r will still be better. and if an h22 is better for drag, why are almost all of the high performance crate engines out there being built from b18's and those are for track or drag most of those have 270hp strait out of the crate and do the 1/4 mile in low 13's.

Because the ITR engine is a lot easier to put into a civic for a swap. Most people who swap engines for the H22 are people with preludes and accord. If more people swapped in h22's into their civics then companies like crate would sell built h22's. Supply and demand; there's no supply because there's little demand. And you have no way of proving your statement "...no matter how much you put into that h22, if you put just as much in that b18c-r that b18c-r will still be better." Have you ever seen someone race a b18c5 that was built and then replace that with a exact identically built h22, in the same car, and seen the ¼ times??? Didn't think so. You're spouting off misinformation that you've made up in your head.

lost944, you do realize the world's fastest all motor honda is h22 powered right?

how about this: lost944 you are wrong and lost plain and simple stop filling up this thread with false information, the high revving on the vtecs are so they can actually make HP and the higher redline doesnt mean that they have more time to make power the rev goes faster than a motor with lower redline. Correct me if I am wrong but a car that redlines at say 8000 rpms will shift at AROUND the same time as one at 6500 rpms because the higher will rev up faster. Now I may be wrong but from my experience that is what it seems like to me.

This is funny, i counted the time it took me to read this whole thread, around 45 minutes. Easy way to solve the prob, search the forums for info on Torque and it's importance, and high revvvvvs and its importance. Actually, i agree with everyone except lost944. Though i do feel kind of sorry for the original poster of this thread, because his head is probably spinning with contradictory information about h-series and b-series motors. Peace.

Although i've contributed to its downfall...

..i'd have to say this is probably AF's worst thread jacking in history.


Case Closed! Somebody lock this thread!

This thread is awesome. Some of the posters need to be skinned alive.

One thing a lot of displacement and torque rules people like to leave out of their arguments when dissing on the higher revving, lower displacement motors if tranny gearing. Having umteen million lbs-ft is ABSOLUTELY uselss if the gearing sucks, PERIOD, END OF THE FUCKING STORY.

And the moron that said vtec is bad for boost is a complete and utter imbecile, and needs to chug some fucking draino. And the guy who said use the Prelude suspension on a Civic needs to follow suit.

Violent :eek: , but effective...... :naughty:

One thing a lot of displacement and torque rules people like to leave out of their arguments when dissing on the higher revving, lower displacement motors if tranny gearing. Having umteen million lbs-ft is ABSOLUTELY uselss if the gearing sucks, PERIOD, END OF THE FUCKING STORY.

And the moron that said vtec is bad for boost is a complete and utter imbecile, and needs to chug some fucking draino. And the guy who said use the Prelude suspension on a Civic needs to follow suit.


and what do we do with the guy that said he knows of an ITR running 25psi on stock internals? oh yah because apparently he has hondata :sly:

and what do we do with the guy that said he knows of an ITR running 25psi on stock internals? oh yah because apparently he has hondata :sly:
I'm sure we can come up with a special sumtin sumtin.

how about this: lost944 you are wrong and lost plain and simple stop filling up this thread with false information, the high revving on the vtecs are so they can actually make HP and the higher redline doesnt mean that they have more time to make power the rev goes faster than a motor with lower redline. Correct me if I am wrong but a car that redlines at say 8000 rpms will shift at AROUND the same time as one at 6500 rpms because the higher will rev up faster. Now I may be wrong but from my experience that is what it seems like to me.

Actually, you brought up a going point. The B-series motors rev higher than the H-series, yes. They also have a smaller bore and stroke than that of the H-series, therefore it takes more rpm's to make comparable power. Hence the higher redline. The H-series has a larger bore and stroke than the B-series, so it requires less rpm's to generate its power. Also, you gain the benefit of displacement and torque as a result of the larger bore and stroke in the H-series.

Now, gearing does play a factor as well. Since the B-series likes higher revs, obviously the transmission gearing is shorter to allow faster acceleration to allow for the motor to spin the higher rpm's. The H-series doesn't need such short gearing because it already has the power and torque on the low end due to its design, so its gears are taller because it has the torque to move the car. Point in case: my Del Sol's B16A doesn't begin to pull until around 4,000rpm's. My roommate's Integra LS pulls great at very low rpm's. B18B motor in his car - larger bore, stroke, and more torque. I have shorter gears than his transmission.

So consider this: the B-series and H-series motors can be just as good as each other. However, the B-series has to work harder and spin more to generate similar power. It takes a lot more money to build a B-series to match larger power numbers the H-series produces, but you bring the B-series to the threshold of its design capabilities. The H-series already has power you're looking for without that type of engine work (overboring, etc.), so you start off "higher on the ladder" so to speak and can still perform the engine work for even more power than the B-series is capable of (speaking strictly N/A).

However, most people swap in B-series because it's an easier swap and has the most aftermarket swap support. But it still comes down to this: what is his final plan for this car? Drag only? Auto-x? Street/strip? Just more power and handling? Once he answers this he can make a decision from there.

Bravo Plastic_Fork! Bravo! :thumbsup:

So consider this: the B-series and H-series motors can be just as good as each other. However, the B-series has to work harder and spin more to generate similar power.
It isn't working harder, it is working different. If you make a B series a 2.2L it is going to kill a H22A.

The H-series doesn't need such short gearing because it already has the power and torque on the low end due to its design, so its gears are taller because it has the torque to move the car.
Not true. At no time, never, will a longer geared tranny be better for speed, ever, never, ever, ever.

It isn't working harder, it is working different. If you make a B series a 2.2L it is going to kill a H22A.


Not true. At no time, never, will a longer geared tranny be better for speed, ever, never, ever, ever.

although these statements are true i have a few to add. first off ive never heard of a 2.2 liter b series. 2.1 yes but not 2.2. not that its not possible but it would only last like one race.

also when talking about transmissions, there is no better than the other. there is only different. now short geared trannies are better for overall acceleration but have bad top end speed. longer gears give a higher top end at the expense of acceleration.

finding the right gear ratios to keep your car in the power band while maintaining high speed capability is difficult but necessary for serious racing. most street motors can stick to stock gearing and be fine.

although these statements are true i have a few to add. first off ive never heard of a 2.2 liter b series. 2.1 yes but not 2.2. not that its not possible but it would only last like one race.

also when talking about transmissions, there is no better than the other. there is only different. now short geared trannies are better for overall acceleration but have bad top end speed. longer gears give a higher top end at the expense of acceleration.

Hence the key word make, of course there is no stock 2.2L B series.

I'll compare the B to the H like this(maybe I should have in the first place), We'll call the B series an ant, and the H22 a human. The B series can lift 20 times his body wieght, while the human can easily crush an ant, if an ant were the size of the human, the human wouldn't have a chance.

And tranny gearing is EVERYTHING. You can have ten million hp, and a billion lbs-ft, if you aren't putting to the ground, it does no good.

The B18C-R and the H22A are very comparable, and in a race it will be the driver that wins. Both have comparable Hp, and the H has 30ish more lbs-ft, but the ITR tranny has MUCH much gearing.

that probably the best way to end this thread.

Okay, lost944, a Integra Type-R motor does not have 141 ft-lbs of torque. The most torque stock a type-r motor is rated at is 133 ft-lbs or torque,not 141 ft-lbs. Secondly, all the autocross argueing about motors..

Did we all forget, the type-r ins't just a different motor, it's the whole package...the suspension, the tranny (some came with an LSD), the whole package. Honda built the whole car for a track, the suspension, the tranny, the LSD, the motor. Argueing the type-r vs H22 in autocross, and one is better due to this motor is useless.

Yes, they may be refering to swapped motors. However, what makes the type-r a potent track car is the WHOLE package. Don't just take part of the package, swap it, and expect to compare things evenly. You have a different suspension , etc.

The bottom line when argueing the motors is this. Don't execpt to drop a type-r tranny and motor into your hatch with the stock dx suspension and expect ti to autocross....you left a big chnk of the eqaution out. Now I am not supporting the H22 over the b-series in any way, I am just saying that you are comparing apples to bread there. You are comparing the MOTORS in terms of HANDLING...you forget big parts of handlingand track racing...tranny gearing persance of an LSD, and suspension.

I am very glad jcrx came in here and started to talk sense into this thread. He had good explanations of tranny importance and a good analogy when comparing the motors. Hopefully this will explain things better to people who read this thread, as the first who-knows how many pages where by large useless.

It isn't working harder, it is working different.

That's actually the point I was trying to make. I just didn't word it as efficiently.

Not true. At no time, never, will a longer geared tranny be better for speed, ever, never, ever, ever.

I completely agree, however I wasn't implying that the longer gears were better for speed. I was merely pointing out that the H-series didn't need shorter gearing like the B-series does.

if you did the research then you would know to boost the ls motor over the h22

if you did the research then you would know to boost the ls motor over the h22

if you did your research youd know that depends on the setup youre trying to accomplish. when using a stock motor yes id say go LS becuase the h22 has very weak internals, especially the cylinderwalls and rods. but, if you are planning on building the motor (which includes sleeving) you should go with the h22 if you want the most power. a fully built turbo LS can not make the same power as a fully built h22. as much as we hate to admit it, more displacement allows for more power.

well when doing my research i found that an ls block built cost a ton less and lasted alot longer than an h22. in my eyes that makes up for the lost power. also if this is a street car the ls can make well over 300 whp that should be enough for anybody on the street.

well when doing my research i found that an ls block built cost a ton less and lasted alot longer than an h22. in my eyes that makes up for the lost power. also if this is a street car the ls can make well over 300 whp that should be enough for anybody on the street.

this thread concerns motors that have been built. now you tell me, if you have two motors (one ls and one h22) that are of the exact same build spec and have the same accompanying parts, how could one last longer than the other? and yes h22 parts do cost more but when building an all out drag motor, skimping out is not an option. h22 will always have more potential than an ls.

You can't rely on what other people say about what motor will "last longer" because there are too many variables to consider. I GUARENTEE that there are built h22's out there that will last longer than a built LS, and the other way around too. It all depends on how well the motor is built and how well it's taken care of. Cost and handling are the only real things anyone should think about when considering building an LS or h22, not reliability.

go ls/vtec

h22 is simply not worth it in that chassis unless you're building an all out drag car.
i know im a little late on this post, but my boy has an h22 in his 93 si, he drives it everday, and its turbo too, if just the swap wasnt good enough.

do what ever swap you can afford. if you want to be faster, just be willing o shell out extra parts, and h series parts dont come that cheap

It isn't working harder, it is working different. If you make a B series a 2.2L it is going to kill a H22A.


Not true. At no time, never, will a longer geared tranny be better for speed, ever, never, ever, ever.

goddamn there needs to be more people like you and i on this damn forum that arent moderators

i have a question, ive been doing some research, and with the budget i have, it seems that the 1.6L DOHC NONE VTEC!!!!! is the best choice, i found out that my 91 hb is easy to do that swap in it, but if i want to go with b16, or b18, i gotta get special mounts, and there is also some wiring and welding, cutting ect that i have to do, anyways.... what is ur opinion on this?

What non-vtec dohc 1.6 are you talking about? the ZC? With a b16a or b18(b or c) you won't have to weld or cut anything, and you'll have to wire for vtec though. In japan there are 91 hb's with b16a's stock in them. I really don't know what exactly you want to know on this. Depends on your budget and mechanic ability (or if you want to pay to get it done at a shop).

the zc is not vtec, i know that, what im asking is, what engine would be the best for my 91 hb, without any welding or cutting. I was hoping to find one that is already bolt on, i hear the zc is, unless u have a dx, if thats the case, u need to mess around with the wiring

the zc is not vtec, i know that, what im asking is, what engine would be the best for my 91 hb, without any welding or cutting. I was hoping to find one that is already bolt on, i hear the zc is, unless u have a dx, if thats the case, u need to mess around with the wiring

It is impossable for us to tell you what motor is "best" for your car. What is "best for your 91HB" really depends on your goals, and the buget you are willing to spend.

im in high school and jobless, so in other words, im looking for the best bang for the buck, im not a newb, i have background with honda, but im more familiar with 92+ hatchbacks, i know many things about it, but a 4th gen hatch i haven't done much research on, so im still learning about it.

I found this website which i though was very helpful, but i wanted to know ur opinions.
http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/4gtech.html

GO LS/Vtec, b16a head, type r internals. You will rape all...

I could've sworn this thread died..

I could've sworn this thread died..

Yes, it's died TOO MANY TIMES!!! These darn newbies won't check thread dates and keep insisting on bringing it back to life. Lets all just let this poor thread rest in peice.

R.i.p