6spd manual vs. Automatic

I know this has probably been adressed before, but which do you think is FASTER (not more fun). I bought a m6 cause I was under the impression that it was the faster of the two... but others in a nuetral forum said autos are always faster because a human cant shift instantly... but I think the BW 6spd is a lot better of a tranny than the 4l60e, any thoughts?

yes with a shift kit i'm fairly certain an auto is faster than the manual. The 1/4mile times for auto and manual f-body's are very similar, a shift kit would put the auto on top. Also, one of the reasons they say auto is faster than manual is because the transmission shifts at the optimum (best) points to shift, whereas a human during a race may not shift at the exact right rpm.

Hey Zwrangler - where can I get something like that for my auto v6? *grin*

I think you can order a Transgo shiftkit online for $100... I was going to get one but I bought a stick instead. :)
I think the m6 is faster for a couple of reasons...
1) More Gears means less drop in RPMs after shifting.
2) M6 has 4 gears before overdrive, A4 only has 3... and extra power gear colud mean a lot.
3) M6 came stock w/ 3.23 or 3.42s, I'm pretty sure the auto came w/ 2.73s which will slow it's ass down.
4) Even if #3 isn't accounted for, i.e. both have 3.42s, I still think #1 and 2 are enough to make M6 faster, plus, in this case it will also have a higher top speed... just a bonus

If there are any engineers reading this and you know about gear ratios, please reply, the M6 has a better ratio than the A4 in every gear but 1st, so this should mean an A4 will only pull on a M6 in when they are in 1st. Just my thoughts.

[QUOTE=Joseph1082]
2) M6 has 4 gears before overdrive, A4 only has 3... and extra power gear colud mean a lot.[QUOTE]

I do not have an answer to your question, but I thought that all but the last gear was overdrive?? ex = 6-Spd, 5 gears + OD, please someone respond I would like to know if I'm wrong.

yea ive always thought that too...

I think you can order a Transgo shiftkit online for $100... I was going to get one but I bought a stick instead. :)
I think the m6 is faster for a couple of reasons...
1) More Gears means less drop in RPMs after shifting.
2) M6 has 4 gears before overdrive, A4 only has 3... and extra power gear colud mean a lot.
3) M6 came stock w/ 3.23 or 3.42s, I'm pretty sure the auto came w/ 2.73s which will slow it's ass down.
4) Even if #3 isn't accounted for, i.e. both have 3.42s, I still think #1 and 2 are enough to make M6 faster, plus, in this case it will also have a higher top speed... just a bonus

If there are any engineers reading this and you know about gear ratios, please reply, the M6 has a better ratio than the A4 in every gear but 1st, so this should mean an A4 will only pull on a M6 in when they are in 1st. Just my thoughts.

Do you suggest that I try to get a manual swap done on my vehicle? Heh is it possible to keep the first gear from the auto and stick it into the manual? :iceslolan

Do you suggest that I try to get a manual swap done on my vehicle? Heh is it possible to keep the first gear from the auto and stick it into the manual? :iceslolan


woaw, no don't go and waste your cash changing your auto to a manual. Seriously man, the auto is just as fast if not faster than a manual. You can get a transgo shift kit for real cheap as joseph 1082 pointed out. And yes, you can make 1st gear selectable in your auto. Its a simple mod, if its a 4th gen that is............ wait a minute, you drive a v6 anyway.
A manual conversion would cost you a lot mate. after paying for the conversion you'd end up paying just a bit less than if you were putting in a v8 into your engine, which will give you much more performance then a manual v6 believe me.

Here is why I like manuals,
1. no torque lost at the converter
2. I controll when she shifts, and auto is preset and has good and bad points
3. I can actualy shift harder myself than the auto(chirping tires wins me over every time)
4. I have more gears to pull me through.

Now as far as I know, especialy with the M6 there is no real over drive gear. All gears can be slung through. It is a bigger gear yes, but not an overdrive gear. I drove a 2002 SS and slung all 6 of them in the quarter to get 13 seconds. If you know what your doing a manual is faster, but an auto is always more consistant.

I thought overdrive simply meant a ratio lower than 1 (i.e. higher gears) 4th in the 4l60e is 0.70:1, in the M6 5th is 0.74:1 and 6th is 0.50:1, I thought this makes them both overdrive.
My old v6 was auto, while my LS1 is stick, so I've tried both tranny options... even though the V6 is significantly slower, I'm judging the performance relative to the other gears... in the auto, 1st and 2nd were strong, but once you hit third there was a significant loss of power. This sin't present in the manual because it has a gear inbetween (3rd in the auto is 1:1, as is 4th in the M6). I just want to make sure I did not buy the slower version of this car, the whole reason I got the M6 was cause I thought sticks are faster.

Here is why I like manuals,
1. no torque lost at the converter
2. I controll when she shifts, and auto is preset and has good and bad points
3. I can actualy shift harder myself than the auto(chirping tires wins me over every time)
4. I have more gears to pull me through.

Now as far as I know, especialy with the M6 there is no real over drive gear. All gears can be slung through. It is a bigger gear yes, but not an overdrive gear. I drove a 2002 SS and slung all 6 of them in the quarter to get 13 seconds. If you know what your doing a manual is faster, but an auto is always more consistant.
Electronically controlled Auto like the 4l60E under WOT will use optimum shift points within a hair of redline to keep you in your powerband and with a shift kit which manually increases line pressure the auto can shift pretty dam hard and seeing as you don't have to pull your foot off the gas I consider that better than a power shift , Also unless your planning on racing 130 + speeds the extra gears will be no help to you

Yeah, well......damn. Ok You've got me there. But if the driver's worth a damn then it shouldn't make much difference.

Most cars Auto Vs stick , its a driver's race could go either way but some cars like the 5.0 Mustangs 87-95 , The manual tranny's dominated by alot

Joseph, u r right for the most part but the newer A4's came with 3.23's and ocassionally the 2.73's. However the M6 does come with the 3.42's. I don't remember the exact ratios but i do know that the A4 has a better 1st gear but after that the M6 dominates.

1992 Rs, My tires chirp the 1-2 shift and the 2-3 shift in overdrive without going into the redline and its an a4. I have to agree with Formula LT1

I'll give you that, but I can chirp my tires through all gears..but who cares about that..there both damn good tranies and with the right driver both will desimate all. Nice car by the way..I'm in love all over again.

Just one thing... the extra gear is not just at the end, the extra gear is 3rd on the M6... If you read my other post, Formula, 4th on the stick=3rd on the auto, so right there you have an extra low-end full of torque gear, you don't need to wait til 130. I think the extra gearing more than makes up for the instantaneous shifting of the auto... isn't a 6spd better than a 5spd because the gears are closer together? So would a 6spd be better than a 4spd... notice my comparison thread was not simply "Automatic vs. Manual" but the 6spd vs the 4l60e.

If I highway raced with a car that had the same mods as mine and had a six speed I would expect to lose but it we are city racing or off the line I'm the guy with the ear to ear smile, patting the dashboard

lol, well, I mean stock vs. stock... I still think that in this case the M6 is faster assuming a good shifting driver. If you have an Auto, haven't you notice the drop after 2nd gear... I don't have such a severe drop in mine, i did in my 96 RS auto though, and hated it, that is where I lost races... get on it and watch what happens after second

Joseph whats your email I want to send you a clip

1992 rs, thats not my ride in my sig, if thats the one u were talking about.

U both make good points but the only way to know for sure is to run them b**ches. I was always told the M6 was faster but i havent lost to one so my point is its all the on the driver.

That is true too, there is going to be a lot more variation in the M6 due to driver than in the auto. I just hope I didn't buy the slower version of the car, BTW, do any auto owners see what I mean in the difference between second and third?

I have like 3 clips of exactly the same modded 4th Gen Fbody's where the Auto takes the stick but with a good driver it goes either way , Also if the Auto is running the 2.73's the Stick will win without a doubt

woaw, no don't go and waste your cash changing your auto to a manual. Seriously man, the auto is just as fast if not faster than a manual. You can get a transgo shift kit for real cheap as joseph 1082 pointed out. And yes, you can make 1st gear selectable in your auto. Its a simple mod, if its a 4th gen that is............ wait a minute, you drive a v6 anyway.
A manual conversion would cost you a lot mate. after paying for the conversion you'd end up paying just a bit less than if you were putting in a v8 into your engine, which will give you much more performance then a manual v6 believe me.

I'd like to perfor a v8 swap but from what I understand there is a lot involved which would cost me a fortune. I'd like to start with a better base and go from there but I need to come up with the funds to get another vehicle. Right now I'm in a rut as the transmission doesn't shift to reverse when it's supposed to. If I put it in reverse, it does nothing, I have to shift from R to D several times before it actually switches the gear. I already added transmission fluid and going form N to D is no problem (a little slow is all) but R does it's thing when it feels like it. SO I'll try to have at it this saturday and see what I can do.

I see what u mean with the 3rd and 4th gear comparison and i would have to say that yeah the auto is at a disadvantage but the auto takes the start and all of first gear. Therefore that puts the pressure on the driver of the M6 to play catch up.

In a perfect world the 6 speed is faster no doubt but it is mighty hard to outperform a auto especially when you have alot of variable's and the biggest one is the driver

Oh and one more thing about extra gears they are great if the ratio are real close but think about this if the auto can get to almost the same gear as you with only having to shift twice vs you having to pull your foot off the gas and shifting , who's got the advantage

ok, these are the kind of deep thoughts I wanted to provoke. The catch up thing is true, first is the only gear taller in the A4.
Formula, what about a really good driver, or powershifting.
I mean, if you come yo DPA this summer I'll show you a couple of my friends that are master shifters. The car shudders after every shift. I dont like doing that cause I want to presereve my car, but still, they can and do shift like that, never heard them ever say the lost to a comparable auto.

Before I comment I just want to add I have owned 2 vettes before my formula which where both stick and I loved them and I really miss not having a stick but a powershifting is great but your basically only making up for the disadvantage of having to pull your foot off the gas and I can tell you first hand and I'm sure I will see you next time I'm up that way I have yet to lose to a M6 with the same mods and I know plenty of auto guys that tell the same story

In a perfect world the 6 speed is faster no doubt
Like I said this should be the case but it rarely is

Ok, how bout this... I forget what mods you have, but would you say you're pretty even w/ a stock LS1.. if so, not me, but i'll let you race my friend in my car, and we can put this to rest?

Well a power shift is an awesome deal that i agree cause i love it when my car moves to the side when i am racing and its an a4. I asked my mechanic a while back whether he thought power shifting was good or not. He says that it is good if u don't over exagrate. In other words when ur wheels break loose u loose traction. so say u got the same cars an A4 and M6 if the A4 doesn't chirp the tires on the shift and the M6 does isn't the A4 actually gaining more distance since there was no loss in traction? See what i am saying?

I have no problem racing any of your friends, let me know I'm down

Yeah buddy thats what i like to hear, homeboys got confidence. I wanna hear what happens if u race so post the results.

I have a Powershot digital Camera , I can try and make a clip, If Joe's down with it

I don't care... I'm not looking at this as such a big badass thing, it's more a science experient to see which does have the advantage. But your cars isn't stock, but for this to work, you need to be pretty dead even in terms of HP and TQ with a stock LS1, all I have is a intake lid.

niice, i wanna see this...

I hope you don't think I'm trying to act like a badass , I just love racing win or lose I still like the rush you get, but ofcourse winning is always better and I'll try my best. And Horsepower torque wise I would say yeah about even as my best time to date it was in 40 degree temp wise with slicks and I ran a 12.8 1/4 which is what a LS1 should run with those conditions

LOl, I didn't mean you were a badass, I'd actually like to do it... just auto vs. manual. I was just sayin of coursed I'd be down, it's not such a big deal to me, like you said, win or lose, whatever.
But w/ 12.8 I think you will toast either way, I don't think a stock LS1 has ever hit 12.8. Would there be anyway to detune your car just a little, for the sake of the experiement... "auto vs. manual" after that we could race again w/ u at top performance and you could rip me whatever :)
I think you told me before but I forget what mods do you have?

12.8 on an lt1 damn fool what u runnin? :eek7:

Hooker Long Tubes, IAT relocator, TB bypass, Airfoil , K&N CAI, Borla catback, 1LE Elbow , 3.73 rear gears, Insulated Intake from heat soak, 160 Thermostat with reprogrammed fans LT1_edit tuning and other stuff

Oh and a Accel ignition system

And the Transgo Shift kit and Corvette Servo,

The only 3 things I can do to detune is take airfoil off, won't hurt me much, retune my car back to stock with LT1_edit and not use my transmission perform button but thats about it

You have a NICE lt1!!!
How bout also undoing the TB bypass as well. Just trying ot get you back up into low 13s.
Can you tell me a little more about lt1 edit and is there an ls1 edit?

The TB bypass iss sorta a pain in the A$$ to do and undo besides its on 6 horsepower difference. but here is the LT1 edit website and yes they LS1 edit too check it out http://www.carputing.com/ Oh and I also forgot to mention my LT4 KM & my descreened MAF . Also I have run a 12.8 but I have run low 13's too so I don't want to give you too much of an edge or else its not a competition its just come kick my a$$ contest

lol, I got ya, BTW what's a LT4 KM, you mean a cross-member?

No its a Knock module , the heads on LT4 models had more valvetrain noise so the Knock Module was made to be less prone to false knock which would retard your timing and hurt performance the stock LT1 KM can retard timing cause of a loud exhaust or even anykind of engine bay noise

Oh, ok, was that a neccessary mod?
Should every lt1 have it

No only if your car is getting false knock or you have changed your heads , headers or exhaust

Will I need it if I get headers on my LS1, or is a unique problem to LT1s?

I don't think false knock is a problem on LS1's do to the awesome ignition system but I don't think the sensor is the one that is used on the LS1 but who knows, Anyway I was thinking since we havn't come up with a race date yet I was thinking April 24th if thats cool with you

Yo Formula, do race close to sea level? I went back an read where u said u sae some ls1's run 12's. Here in Tx where i live we don't get that fast unless u got some major mods. I seen a 02 Z28 run a 13.7 with only an exhaust. thats about as quik as the ls1 get down here with out the big mods.

There are 2 advantages to racing here that will give you better ET's one temp wise during winter, spring and fall -cold weather will net much better times as well as the fact NJ is at Sea Level and I have yet to see a stock LS1 break into the twelve's but there are plenty running 13.2 here and with slicks and 40 degree temps who knows

That's saturday, sounds fine to me, you're coming out here that day. I wanted to ask you, LS1/LT1 edit, it is pretty much like a stand-alone system? and I need a laptop as well?

Yeah I told my friend from Deer Park thats the day I'm comming up and he really wants to see the race, LS1 edit seems a bit much , I will try to find a less expensive system but you don't need a laptop you can use your desktop but need to get it within 10Ft of your car and you normally need a serial port to OBD2 connector but I already have one of those so you could borrow it if you wanted to experiment with tuning

That's cool, we can race and then you can educate me on different things
I want to retune it back to Vette-like settings, since it is detuned at the factory.

Oh, and if I wanted to get it for myself, I'd just need the connection wire and software? nad how much would it run me?

First thing your car really isn't detuned, I have read articles about how some F-bodys have dynoed more horsepower than the same year Vette , so that was just hype to help sell Vettes. Also I was looking for tuning options for you and noticed that one of the best F-body tuners in the world is going to be in Long Island on the 24th of April what a weird twist of fate anyway here is the websites and if you click under dyno tuning at the top center you will see they are scheduled to be in NY 24th also give them a call , by the way they charge 250.00 for tuning for your specific car with your specific needs http://www.pcmforless.com

lol but i dont have any mods yet, so i guess i dont need it yet (BTW: that is a really weird coincidence) but in another forum I had said that we make just as much HP as the Vette, and someone else told me know because it was detuned.

Please I'm sure you know just as well as I do that everyone on the net is a car expert and mean while most don't know how to change a air filter