need help from the tune up experts

I'm new here but have a great need and dry humor. My 98 Windstar has 120k. It looses power warm or cold, drops out of Od trying to make it up gradually slowing down to 45 mph in 3rd. It runs rough at this speed. I replaced the fuel filter and noted some improvement. Been told to replace gas cap (today), shop can't find anything wrong on OBD 2, CE is on and blinks every so often, shop has reset it several time but it goes on in 15 min. 2 plugs replaced but looked ok (I think they were damaged removing them) plug wires seem ok, new air cleaner, new battery. Shop had it for a week and said it ran perfectly. I drove it home and 15 miles later it started acting up. The car has no reason to hate me, I take care of it give it a bath frequently, change oil as recommended, don't pull trailers, gentle driving, keep the tank full etc. Help, help....I want to hear "no problem..just add a new..(what ever) ..for 20 bucks and it will be good as new". Come on what do y'all think?

bentwings- I wish I could recommend a "fix it" in a can for you, but they rarely work anyway :icon16: . I don't want to sound (more) like a broken record either, but you NEED to know what specific OBDII codes are locking in to resolve this. A "blinking" CEL indicates a system malfuntion that if left unchecked will lead to engine/emission system damage. Many things could be the cause: 1) funky O2 sensor(s) causing the engine to go lean or too rich at inopportune times. 2) Bad Mass air flow sensor again causing F/A ratio issues. 3) EGR occationally staying on hot & heavy when it shouldn't (very likely cause). Get the codes read & post'em here, or browse this forum, there's some good links to where you can get you own code reader.
G/luck
Joel

Thanks, it rained very hard today so I couldn't do much I did get an air cleaner which was supposed to have been replaced at the last oil change. It was pretty dirty for 3000 miles. I'm going over to the Zone in the morning and at least try to get some codes. I'll try to search for a reader here too. Sorry I wasn't able to give more info. My wife has been driving it since I got my truck so I really haven't driven the van much lately.

bentwings

Well I went over to the Zone and did the scanner. It shows cyl 1 and 4 as misfire. Ironically the repair shop replaced these 2 plugs.
The gentleman doing the test said to try a coil or wires. So that is the next thing maybe today but it is freezing to day. dang it. The van ran perfectly all the way over to AZ and the couple stops I made on the way.
More later I guess.
bentwings

Clean the MAF sensor. You'll need a #20 tamper-proof Torx bit (small hole in center of bit), and some electrical parts cleaner (NAPA, Pep-Boys etc).

Here's a link: http://www.crownvic.net/tech/cleanmaf.html

ok, here we are again,
new air cleaner, PVC valve, one vac line replaced (123k on the odometer)
I did the MAF as noted above.....nada still the same periodic loss of power...at least that is what it seems like. I did find some oil residue in the air cleaner bellows right in front of the throttle body. I carefully wiped this out. There is a little note about cleaning with solvents on the throttle body.
The Zone scanner still says miss fire and cyl 1 and 4. OK I installed a new coil. It seemed to fix the problem for a couple days (cold weather) then same thing. So I changed the plugs. (not as bad as it looks) Noted some improvement like a better idle and smoother running but still the sag and loss of power especially when warm. It starts right a 2000 rpm or about 45-50 mph in dr with od. If you use just enough throttle to hold speed on the level it will drop rpm to about 1500/1600 as the converter locks up. then as you gradually ease into the pedal it acts like a carb with a bad accelerator pump. Then it will buck a bit eventually down shifting (unlock the converter then drop out of od.) You can "yellow button" it out of od to prevent it from dropping below 2000 and it is more or less fine. The lack of power is noticeable however. The Zone and another shop still say #1 and # 4 missfire (saw it on the scanner). It seems to me like the EGR is hanging up but I would think it would show on the scanner. Noted above. This whole problem comes and goes. It stays more of less away when I drive but I think the car hates my wife. I drive pretty easy but my wife will mash it occasionally. Years ago in the auto shop I worked in I had a car with aluminum manifold that cracked underneath (Mopar) and gave me fits. It also acted the same way. I hope the plastic manifold isn't cracked. $$$ The original shop I took it to is reluctant to continue messing with this car. I suspect they are lost and are cutting thier losses. Ironically they had replaced #4 plug with a new one. Why they didn't do #1 also is beyond me. But if they were going to charge me $11 apiece for plugs I can see why. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of my rath either!!! LOL.
I may just have to break down and buy a scanner of my own. Any recommendations??
Is it possible that the transmission is hanging up (electronic controlls) and causing the motor to lug down too far???
Thanks for the helpfull tips on this nasty problem.

Assuming you have the 3.8L- check the actuators, linkages & throttle shafts for the secondaries/variable runner throttles on the left side of the engine. I've seen some posts where this can cause some misfire & lean burn conditions due to the butterflies being stuck open, or air leaks around the throttle shafts.
G/luck
Joel

I recently bought a 3100E code reader. (www.codereader.com) for $200 CDN. You could probably get it for $120 south of the 49th. I love it.

A blinking CEL indicates an urgent problem and that the cats may be damaged if not repaired soon.
Usually raw fuel making it to the Cat. Of course a misfire would do this. Have you checked to ensure that you are getting a spark in the cylinders? I have seen very inexpensive ignition testers that have an inductive pickup that you simply run the length of each wire. It will show if there is a break or if the coil pack is producing spark. If you discover that you have spark in the engine and we can assume you have fuel perhaps you have one of the problems Rodeo spoke of.

I don't know how the 98s were set up EGR wise but if some of the EGR ports are plugged and as a result sending all of the Exhaust to these two cylinders than I think it may be possible to cause misfire.

well tomorrow is another day. Between looking for a job and getting this d...m car fixed I guess I will be busy all day... I'll check out the throttle shafts etc possibly take the EGR valve off and look at it.....How about adding a vacuum gage and check it out when the power loss occurs??? It is supposed to be 70's tomorrow so it will be a nice day to waste fixing the d....m car instead of working on my hot rod Willys..
Thanks again for the suggestions..I'll keep trying
bentwings

Well the start of another nice spring day.Too bad everyone else got to enjoy it. My wife brought the van home and said it was doing all sorts of things besides not running right. duhhh. Well I took it out and drove around for a bit. I'm thinking based on this ride that there is something in the transmission. I was going along about 45-50 and bam...the d..m thing down shifted right to 2nd gear. I mean like I had pulled the shift lever into 2. It settled down and bam again it down shifted again this time with my foot off the gas. I was coasting from about 45-50 and the tach was at about 1200. I got home and looked at the throttle shaft the best I could and I don't see any thing very loose. It is actually pretty clean. It's going to be hard to check the EGR. I may just have to pull it off and peek inside. Tomorrow I'll head for the trans shop and see if they can put their scanner on it. I already blew 2500 on a trans a couple years ago but it didn't do any of this...it just broke on the highway in rush hour. At least I was able to back traffic up for a mile or so LOL.

Well I just got back from the trans shop. here is what he found:
codes po 301 cyl 1 mis fire
po 304 cyl 4 mis fire
po 1513 IMRC bank 2 stuck closed


the trans works perfectly infact better that most rebuilds. 2 days of testing and 6 hours of no charge labor!!! not bad. I owe them pizza Trans shop says that there are no trans codes, it works great cold or hot. The MLP manual lever position sensor and the VSS vhicle speed sensor can be bad or intermittant and cause no codes as the event is too quick for the scan time of the computer. I have personal experience of this in industrial automation (my job). Further checking says this is true. He was reluctant to replace them at this point as there is a motor problem but he doesn't do motors ,only sees scan codes during trans checks. He didn't know what the po1513 was but later called me regarding it. Two other mech suggested these sensors for the same reason. Another guy indicated there is a seconday throttle shaft sensor (IMRC) that can go bad. If this is so...where is this thing so I can check it out. Rodeo..I think you noted something regarding this piece of wizzardry too. Help this poor old (former) back yard mech fix this van so I can get back to my Willys street rod.
thanks for all the help guys. I keep y'all posted on the results
bentwings

... Another guy indicated there is a seconday throttle shaft sensor (IMRC) that can go bad. If this is so...where is this thing so I can check it out....
The secondary throttle shafts stick out of the lower intake towards the left of the engine compartment, one for each cylinder bank. Kinda behind all the accessory pullies, towards the top of the engine. IIRC- the pre 1999's have a vacuum actuator for each linkage/shaft. The 1999-2003 have one electric actuator for both. I doubt this would cause your misfire being stuck shut, because the secondaries dont even open until something like 3800RPM at near WOT conditions, so they are normally closed most of the time. Your misfires may be caused by vacuum leak somewhere on the upper or lower intake sealing areas. Spray around with water mist or carb cleaner (with the van running) to see if you can locate a vac leak that makes the RPM's change.
G/luck
Joel

The vacuum leak idea has been in the back of my head for a while. After just activating the shafts a few times the van seems to run better. I didn't get over to get some vac hose but I will tomorrow. I think I"ll also pick up whatever gaskets are needed to do r&R on the upper intake manifold. I should be able to get at the EGR passages too I think.
Thanks again for the helpfull suggestions. I'll keep you up to date on this nasty problem.

bentwings

I didn't want to read all the replies. Has anyone mentioned a plugger catalitic converter ?

when doing a tune up is all invovled is just the plug and wires correct since it is a distributorless ignition. I dont have to change idle postions or anything? i know about the airfilter and pcv valve. my wife got a tune up but didnt get the wiores since it will cost more. The next time i need a tune up I am going to do it, but i just hope that i don't have to hange any setings. any suggestions??


bri

fdnash,
no the cat. converter hasn't been hashed over yet. I suppose it is possible but I would think a code referencing the O2 sensors would show up due to back pressure contaminating the exhaust gas...maybe not. I've got the stuff to add a pressure gage to the pipe if needed..plus I have a TIG welder so it will be a piece of cake to weld the fitting on. My wife had to use the car all day today so I didn't get to do anything plus it rained the few hours she was home. (MY hot rod is not going to sit out in the rain)

along the line of the cat. years ago I had a Caddy in the shop I worked in that would loose power at about 60 mph on the hwy. No cat on this vintage however. I finally found the the double wall exhaust pipe from the manifold to the muffler had separated and the inner wall had collapsed.

thanks for the suggestion

On my 97 Windstar, I was told it was running bad due to the IMRC being bad. They told me the front one was already shot and the rear was getting ready to go. I have driven it that way for over a year now due to them wanting 600-700 to fix this, and it has not gotten any worse. I know have the funds and want to fix them. Do I need to remove the alternator to do this ? If so, how do I loosen the belt or do I have to ? Another problem I have is that I smell the "waffle house" smell, which I figure is coolant leaking somewhere. Is this my water pump ? no overheating and no leaking on the driveway. I know it's not the head gasket. AC went out last year and I was quoted 700 to fix that. Thanx guys/gals.

The vacuum leak idea has been in the back of my head for a while. After just activating the shafts a few times the van seems to run better. I didn't get over to get some vac hose but I will tomorrow. I think I"ll also pick up whatever gaskets are needed to do r&R on the upper intake manifold. I should be able to get at the EGR passages too I think.
Thanks again for the helpfull suggestions. I'll keep you up to date on this nasty problem.

bentwings

I can attest to clogged EGR ports under the upper intake causing cylinder misfire codes. It was happening on my (130k mile at the time - now at 180k miles) '98 3.8 liter engine. I replaced plugs, wires, coil pack and kept getting the cylinder misfire codes back. I used an awl with the shop vacuum and poked the ports clean while holding the vacuum to it to suck all the carbon out and the van has been fine since. I did not replace any gaskets. The gaskets are a pliable sturdy rubber that does not need replacing. The whole procedure takes about an hour and no special tools required. Here is another Windstar board and thread where I found the info.
http://forums.vmag.com/mvwindstar1199/messages/1020.html

Good luck with your van

Steve

hello everyone!

nice insights, got a similar problem now with my truck i'll try that option resource. thanks. have a great day everyone!